A question for my fellow lady webmasters.

[Ms Naughty]

You know what Jackie? I'm sick of women who put down other women because they like romance novels. Why are their tastes worse than yours? To each their own. Your entire post indulges in a swathe of your own stereotypes and it seems you have a few issues with men.

If you don't need porn made for you, then great. Off you go and enjoy your kind of porn. Goodness knows there's a shitload of it all over the internet.

But don't go assuming that every other woman is like you, or is not as good as you because they have different tastes.

Linkster: Thanks for your info

[karomesis]

This is not true, not all women like emotional bullshit.

I HATE stereotypes.

I never said all of them do.|confused|

And stereotypes sometimes have a scientific backing.

I usually prefer not to make absolute statements such as all, or everyone, or forever, as they oftentimes lack a basis in reality.

I can do anything a man can do (and probably do it better) and watch anything a man can watch. And then some.

I never said anything contrary. |confused|

[jackie]

Originally Posted by karomesis

I never said all of them do.|confused|

And stereotypes sometimes have a scientific backing.

I usually prefer not to make absolute statements such as all, or everyone, or forever, as they oftentimes lack a basis in reality.




I never said anything contrary. |confused|

I know you didn't say anything contrary. I just said it just in case someone would think otherwise

I argued with some other people about the subject of men vs women (nothing to do with porn at all) and the consensus was that women can't do everything that men can. For example they stated that most things are invented by men, and that women were expected to raise children and be faithful and other things...

Don't mind me, I'm just in a bad mood so I like to take it out in the boards. It's a free form of therapy ....

[Linkster]

Well - one more little interjection here - mostly probably because I was raised a little different than most back in the 50s and 60s - I grew up with a mother that worked as a newspaper reporter and had very controversial views at the time (think crosses being burned on your front yard and you get the idea) - however, in addition to the segregation issues that she dealt with, she also was on the "front lines" of the "equal rights and liberation" forces for women. I guess in that upbringing I was basically pointed in the direction of thinking that all people were equal - no matter the gender, although there were, and still are, quite a large percentage of both men AND WOMEN, that have very specific thoughts on their roles in society.
I now live in a very small town where women and "other races" are still at the bottom of the totem pole and what makes it really hard to accept is that everyone plays their part the way it would have been in the 1860s - and they dont really explore that outside world where things have changed - so they are content with their :roles" - kinda makes it interesting to have discussions and see their responses compared to what I was raised with.

What this all boils down to is I believe that women (as well as men) will go for what their environment (in their minds) allows - some may be of the romance and "swept off their feet" mentality, while some are of the "get nasty with me right now - Im a woman that needs it and will tell you to your face - when its not between my legs" approach. It just shows the diversity (theres a PC term I love) of our world

God I ramble when I drink - hopefully this made a little sense

[Ms Naughty]

Makes perfect sense Linkster. Every woman is different.

To bring this back to a porn context, I think it comes back to the mistaken belief that "what women want" is all the same, and the idea that "porn for women" equates only to soft lighting, log fires and romance.

This idea tends to get some women upset (if you've read my long argument with Furrygirl on another board, you'll see what I mean). Things get all tangled up with feminism, and "stereotypes", and other fun bits of theoretical social deconstruction. I can understand that they may be frustrated, but often their arguments end up disparaging or negating other women's legitimate experiences. Thus, Jackie, my rather riled up response.

The fact is that there should be a variety of niches within "for women" porn, just like there are with men, but we haven't quite got there yet. (Give me time.) There's still a majority of people in the industry don't even believe that women like porn at all. So, right now, "porn for women" still tends to mean naked beefcake men, Candida Royalle movies and relatively vanilla hetero couples.

If you look at the full-on hardcore stuff, all the language still targets it completely at men. There's no acknowledgement of a female audience whatsoever. So until that happens, I believe "porn for women" needs to exist as a concept.

OK, enough philosophy.

[tamara]

Personally, I like the "cumslut" variety of pics myself... but the problem is that right now there is an overwhelming amount of misogyny on most of the sites out there. Sites where women are implied to be being fucked while drunk and passed out, for example, do nothing for me. Those sites where women are supposedly craçk whores desperate for a fix, are a total turn-off to me. (And I wonder about the kind of guy who finds that sexy.)

Sites where a woman is a horny slut and wants sex, do. There is a huge difference, to me, namely one of clear and informed consent and obvious DESIRE. If the people having sex together are clearly turned on and having a blast, THAT is hot to me. I really believe that desire and enthusiasm are the key, at least for me they are!

On my site, I might do a rape fantasy shoot, in the larger context of the fact that it is my own site, people can see it is my own fantasy shoot, set up my own way, and that I enjoy it and would write about it both before and afterwards. Alone, something like that is just kind of scary.

I don't actually even know any women who like the romance-y kinds of things... I mean sites like that "For the girls" site are definitely not my kind of porn. To me it feels condescending almost. I KNOW that is not the way lots of women perceive it and I'm glad it sells well. I am for anything that allows women to feel sexually empowered, whether it floats my boat or not!

^5 to Jackie! Whom I did not think was putting down other women, btw. And why is it that when a woman says she's tired of being told what to want, she sounds bitter? BTW, feminism is all about creating choices for women. Multiple forms of porn do that, so I am all for it. But some of the "for women" sites exclude all other forms of porn which may be for women, and I'm honestly not for that.

[karomesis]

If the people having sex together are clearly turned on and having a blast, THAT is hot to me. I really believe that desire and enthusiasm are the key, at least for me they are!

It is for me as well, I am actually turned off by actors who barely seem to be involved let alone enjoying themselves. They should call it the zombie niche|shocking|

And the lighting in some of the shoots, where are they shooting? walmart? fucking ugly as hell flourescent lighting makes people look old and tired. If you're gonna give the actors hundreds or thousands, at least invest some in decent shoots and good lighting.

[swingingina]

thats a great question.... I think you will get different types of women who surf, but not sure how many will actually sign up.... most are probably browsing

[stuveltje]

i wonder if straight girls with an fantasie <------(focus on fantasie, so not a bisexual girl) about having sex with a woman would sign in for a lesbian site, now to be real if i look at the dutch lesbian woman in real life, they all look like guys and definitly not like the woman on girl for girl sites so a for woman site could be also a lesbian site or a threesome site, or an shemale, shemale fucks girl.........oke now i have done it, i confused myself like hell

[Ms Naughty]

Originally Posted by tamara

Sites where a woman is a horny slut and wants sex, do. There is a huge difference, to me, namely one of clear and informed consent and obvious DESIRE. If the people having sex together are clearly turned on and having a blast, THAT is hot to me. I really believe that desire and enthusiasm are the key, at least for me they are!

I think it's not just you Tamara. I know I feel the same way. A hint of realism combined with context and enthusiasm make for good porn. And I would say many people, men and women, would agree.

Originally Posted by tamara

But some of the "for women" sites exclude all other forms of porn which may be for women, and I'm honestly not for that.

Again, my point about niches. You can't be all things to all women. You don't hear people complaining that Hustler is unfair because it doesn't contain pissing or BDSM content.

That said, For The Girls is broadly vanilla, but the members area does contain a variety of content beyond the "standard" so there's a choice for those who want to enjoy other stuff.

"Porn For Women" is a handy niche label at present. It may be inaccurate, but it's useful. As I said above, this may change in time. We'll see.

[meechie]

Like I said in the other thread, I have a pornsite for women and it does ok. I did a poll of the month to see what they wanted to see on my site.. And Big dicks won hands down..LOL then came, threesomes girl/girl/guy and girl/guy/guy then it was lesbian. So I try to stick to those subjects in my blog and it seems to work. I talk to them like I would talk to any other girl friends..They also like to see how to things..Like how to give a better blow job..LOL there favorite so far is how to squirt. I have mostly sold memberships to big dicks and of course everyones favorite the dating sites.
Women are alot harder to sell to then men that is for sure, but we need more content out there its very limited and hard to find stuff that isn't gay related.

[tickler]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

So, right now, "porn for women" still tends to mean naked beefcake men, Candida Royalle movies and relatively vanilla hetero couples.

From a female reporter looking for 4-Women porn.

Porn should keep a pulse on women’s needs
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/...s.asp?id=37442

[Ms Naughty]

Yes I read that. She watches one older Candida Royalle movie and suddenly she's an expert LOL
I sent her an email

[WildChyld]

Over the years some of my most dedicated members have been women and they have varied in their tastes as widely as the men! Most of them say that they enjoy the honesty of my site, some say that they like that I seem in charge of my sexuality, while others really love the nastier stuff.
When I surf online I tend to be most attracted to really hardcore stuff that is obviously not posed but when I'm looking for a video I want something that is both pretty and dirty (Ninn movies mostly)
Sex positive movies like Candida Royalles are definately a valuable tool, especially for women and couples who are uncomfortable with full on porn expression but lets be realistic. People graduate beyond that more quickly than they outgrow a one inch diameter butt plug, once you slide it in you only want more. tee hee

[Cherie]

I have bought memberships to paysites a good number of times, and I have a couple that I've joined for a month or two every year for several years running. I would probably buy a lot more porn if *MY* site was making a profit!

My husband, while he has a HUGE collection of naughty pics harvested from usenet over the years, has never once bought a site membership. Not even when I offered to get him one for Valentine's day.

Of course, I am totally non-stereotypical in my purchases: I go for hentai and extreme bdsm art sites mostly. Stuff which is perhaps not so easy to find for free. He goes for skinny waifs in panties, which are a dime a dozen.

I've not had any women members yet, but I had several lady fans when I was doing CamZ shows. They often spoke of loving my honesty, openness, and genuine orgasms. I've thought about marketing my site toward women, but I kinda feel I wouldn't know how to go about it - I've been off the pussy market for a decade and don't really feel like I know how to chat up a non-male person anymore. My content is mostly me cumming in various ways, so there's a definite focus on female pleasure, and while my stunt-cock (hubby) isn't really beefcake material the genuine enthusiasm & affection of our couples scenes might, I think, appeal to a lot of women. It turns me on to watch our stuff anyway.

If I weren't so afraid of the Jesus-police I would LOVE to start a rape fantasy site for/by women. I know it's a hugely common fantasy for women, and I think it would be super to have a "safe" place where women could enjoy that fantasy without feeling truly denigrated.

[karomesis]

If I weren't so afraid of the Jesus-police I would LOVE to start a rape fantasy site for/by women. I know it's a hugely common fantasy for women, and I think it would be super to have a "safe" place where women could enjoy that fantasy without feeling truly denigrated.

You do realize it is politically incorrect to speak of such things openly? The thought police are on their way.

Actually, if it was a guy posting that, he probably would've recieved death threats by now.|shocking|

[Tyranni]

Well, I have had a membership to one bdsm site several years ago, which I had a hard time unsubscribing from and left me wary of others, then, say, oh, 2 years ago I was a member of waterbondage.com for several months, a site I just couldn't resist. I have had a membership at ifriends.net for about 3 years now, but I do live cam shows there. I bought a few short cam shows from other chathosts a while ago. Typically I am more likely to purchase a fetish magazine or buy a DVD than a subscription to a website, frankly because I produce the stuff and it isn't so appealing to me, and I am at the computer far too often to want to sit around on it for longer following any paysites. I don't know if I am representative, however, I do not know of any of my female friends who would subscribe to a paysite, at least they don't admit it, and we talk pretty openly about such things. I have a couple of female members, or at least the name on their card is.

[Ms Naughty]

Nancy Friday documented the popularity of female rape fantasies in My Secret Garden in the 70s. The thing is, it's never about real rape. It's about being forced to be pleasured, about not having to take responsibility for your own pleasure. The female's needs are the focus, not the male's.

Interestingly, when she released Women on Top 20 years later she found that the rape fantasy wasn't as big. She said women had become more relaxed about their sexuality in the meantime. There was less guilt. So there was no need to rely on a rape fantasy to assuage that guilt.

It would be tricky to depict the powerplay of that fantasy in photos or video. And, yes, the Jesus people would be after you because they wouldn't be able to pick up on the different context. Rape in porn is a dangerous topic.

[karomesis]

Rape in porn is a dangerous topic.

I once had a girlfreind that wanted to be choked while I fucked her (sexual asphyxia) and beat as well. The sexual predilections between two parties are not the business of ANYONE else .....ever.

So I agree with you Grandma on the danger aspect, but why? because of puritannical morons who wish to impart their morality on the planet.

Morality is subjective and a progeny of local custom, never universal.

Sadean nihilism is the truth, like it or not.

I tire of suffering fools.

[Cherie]

Oh, so many interesting threads tangled together here I don't even know where to begin!

It would be a very interesting test, I think, if one of the "For Women" LL owners added some sort of special section for the rougher stuff.

I remember reading My Secret Garden, but I didn't know she wrote a followup. I base my assesment on just my own experiences and the people I've met. I have personally gone hunting for the more violent stuff, and whenever I find it I'm not the only woman there looking. Rape fantasies may only be a very tiny proportion of all female fantasies but that doesn't mean there aren't millions of women having them; possibly even enough to support it as a porn niche. And this isn't even beginning to touch the other side of this particular coin, extreme Femdom fantasies.

Many feminists, as well as the Jesus-police, would object to the whole "she ended up enjoying it" theme of the classic female rape fantasy; after all it's not how real women really react to real crimes. But (leaving aside the issue of whether the availablity of such porn somehow turns men into rapists, which is itself highly debatable) I am not so sure that *that* style of fantasy is actually the norm.

For instance, my in own fantasies of this type, I prefer to imagine acts that not only would I *not* do in real life, but which are physically impossible - accosted by a handsome stranger and "forced" to have an orgasm I can play at anytime with dh. Eg. the guys always have dicks as big around as your arm and can cum seventeen times in three hours, shooting voluminous loads each time. (Hence the cartoons, rather than pics or movies.) Perhaps because there's not much I really wouldn't do with a consenting partner, I guess I feel the need for a complete break from the possible in these fantasies. (Could this be a sort of alternate response to the lessening of sexual guilt observed by Nancy Friday?) Interestingly enough, in my fantasies I also often (but not exclusively) assume the role of the male aggressor; I force myself to submit to my own raging desire, and I am also the irresistable object of lust, the hot piece that my desire must posses. And none of them wear my actual body, lol!

In my whopping 36 years of experience ( ), it seems to me that everybody's fantasies (both men and women) are so very individual, their sources and the psychologial meanings each person ascribes to them so unique, that it is next to useless to speculate about any kind of commonality.

Why is it - if it is not a symptom of psychological or societal damage - that so many humans, male and female, have sexual fantasies involving dominance, submission and violence? Simply because the emotions involved - fear, anger, etc - invoke the exact same physical responses as sexual arousal. To your body, it's the same (or nearly the same) thing, and sex is all about what happens in the body, is it not? I think some of us like our sex spiced with extra helpings of those feelings in the same way as some folks like spicy foods, or get a kick out of skydiving. I also think that the presence of violent fantasy porn - and accompanying educational resources - is an excellent way of dealing with these urges, which might perhaps lead to real crimes if not diverted, or perhaps only to lives of dissatisfaction for those whose cravings go unfulfilled.

If I *were* to make rape-fantasy porn I think I would, rather than just make vids or whatever with the "she ended up enjoying it" approach, provide a behind-the-scenes look at each model and/or production. Kind of "yeah, hi, this is me and I'm gonna do this kinky scene because it turns me on and it's a fun way to make a buck." The scene itself could then either follow the classic forced-to-enjoy-it pattern or take a more brutish tone, and it would still be clear (one hopes) to the viewer that the participants are consenting.

Some folks I know would insist that this wouldn't be enough, that even those bits could be faked by an unscrupulous enough pornmeister, and I guess this is also true. But at some point the right/ability to say NO has to also mean the right/ability to say YES. Even if it's yes to making, buying, and viewing stuff that many would find distasteful.

Have I ed too much? I apologize...I've been celebrating a little, hehehe

[susanna]

Cherie

You have touched on the very meaning/root of the rape fantasy. To be lusted and desired so much that someone would TAKE their pleasure risking the fact you may not enjoy it and in fact be traumatized. The woman with this fantasy is not thinking about how she might be totally freaked out by a real rape just as 99.999999% of real women are.

To be lusted after so much that a man is out of control.
To be lusted after so much that a man takes me.
To be lusted after so much that, in the end, my mind is blown away by matched passion for my attacker.

There is another way that women play this lust for lust out. They partake in the D/s relationship. A woman assumes the submissive role in order to be told what she will do. She will not be responsible for her actions and can be taken by 50 men in one night if it is her masters wishes. In D/s the rape scene is played out in public scenes where the master invites some other master watching to take what he wants from his submissive. When I say public I would imagine this is not at a fet night but a public invite only party for example. Anyways, what I am getting at is that the "being taken without my permission" part of the fantasy is also done by groups of people who do not name this a rape fantasy.

A few other points on this. First off you ALWAYS have to show consent. The BDSM community is video taping all of their scenes. They always film a before interview where they ask her previous experience and what she is expecting today. Then they ask after how she liked it etc. It is the ONLY way to show consentualism. If you want to have a pretend rape paysite, you MUST CLEARLY show consent. This starts with how you word your tour text and ends with this type of before/after interviewing of the model.

The sleeping sex sites pretended to be rape fantasy sites when they first came out and thought that this was fine...that the women really wanted it. There was enough uproar about how you can't just verbalize on a message board that you are not pushing real degredation of women, your tour must say its pretend or about fantasy.

On the issue of porn for women. Of course we are not meeting all womens needs. We have three sites worthy of mention. For the Girls, Sssh and the Clothed Female Naked Male sites are actually making tours that say "heh we are a for women porn site" of course there are other sites that women will like. Example of a site women like might be a femdom site but personally, a site that is femdom where the man always gets sucked or wanked off in the end is not true to its niche...instead its true to men (as usual). So a femdom, lesbian, big cock, total fuck slut etc site made by women for women would be a nice twist. People will say 'what about that site where there are two women who rape men'? That site is still all about the guy getting off and so to me the focus is not enough on the women. If they are trying to meet the needs of females, some of the men would be left high and dry.

The last point I want to make is about the rape fantasy again. I personally have enough respect for those who have gone through a real rape trauma to never make such a site. I will always fight against any porn mongerer that will not show consentualism up front and center in their tour pictures (harder) and text (very very easy to do) and inside their members area. I have respect for men and women and children and WILL NOT stand by while others go for the dollar vs. humankind. They can hide behind the "freedom of speech" arguement all they want but its not appropriate to produce hurtful material.

If a rape fantasy site can be made where the tour and content make it very clear that its all about the fantasy that WOMEN have, then I think it will go over better with the authorities. I would imagine this is the very reason there are few if any of these sites.



.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Cherie

But at some point the right/ability to say NO has to also mean the right/ability to say YES.

YES!

I very much look forward to the day when enough people agree that we've fought for the right to say "no" long enough and turn some of their energies to the fight for the right to say "yes" to more things. Sometimes it seems there is so much attention paid to all the variations of "No Means No" and "Just Say No" that no one is remembering/teaching/learning that "Yes Means Yes" is something of value too.

Okay, I'm back out. I just wanted to say that I'm a big believer in the right to say YES.

[karomesis]

Why is it - if it is not a symptom of psychological or societal damage - that so many humans, male and female, have sexual fantasies involving dominance, submission and violence? Simply because the emotions involved - fear, anger, etc - invoke the exact same physical responses as sexual arousal. To your body, it's the same (or nearly the same) thing, and sex is all about what happens in the body, is it not? I think some of us like our sex spiced with extra helpings of those feelings in the same way as some folks like spicy foods, or get a kick out of skydiving. I also think that the presence of violent fantasy porn - and accompanying educational resources - is an excellent way of dealing with these urges, which might perhaps lead to real crimes if not diverted, or perhaps only to lives of dissatisfaction for those whose cravings go unfulfilled.

I agree.


The fact of the matter is, individual freedom is so valuble, I would stand up for people whos ideas and desires i hate just because their freedom to choose what they wish so long as it harms no one is that important to me.

Okay, I'm back out. I just wanted to say that I'm a big believer in the right to say YES.

I am too.

I stand for absolute freedom for myself and others, it is irrelevant if I like or dislike what they choose to do, what is relevant however, is that it's none of my godamn business.

[susanna]

Originally Posted by karomesis

I stand for absolute freedom for myself and others, it is irrelevant if I like or dislike what they choose to do, what is relevant however, is that it's none of my godamn business.

I have a question for you...those people who say ABSOLUTES like you just did. Is it really appropriate to say every person has absolute freedom? What about the rules of not harming another person (without their consent)? So you are saying a rapist has the individual freedom to rape?

[karomesis]

Susanna, Did you actually read my post?

so long as it harms no one

The condition of freedom was so long as it harmed no one else.

Is it really appropriate to say every person has absolute freedom?

In the future, they will.