Paysite Owners: Are Online Checks Worth It?

MrsHackula · 2003-11-10, 11:25 AM

We are so torn about whether to continue offering online checks. Currently about 1/3rd of all initial check signups bounce.

I also highly suspect that surfers are becoming more aware of the security flaw inherent in using online checks with instant access... They can make up any info they want, and get into a site for free for days before the "check" bounces. I've noticed some wanna-be hackers getting un/pws and posting them to password boards this way too.

On the other hand, when checks are good, they tend to rebill better than credit cards.

So what are your thoughts on accepting online checks?

urb · 2003-11-10, 11:36 AM

Do you think the surfers who paid by check (and are rebilling) would have used their plastic if there was no other option?

Also, how much of your site can a surfer download (with broadband) in the space of time it takes for a check to clear?

MrsHackula · 2003-11-10, 01:31 PM

1- That's really hard to say. In the U.S. it's become pretty common for banks to offer a free debit card when getting a checking account. That card can be used to sign up just like a credit card, so those people would be able to sign up regardless. However, not every bank offers this, and not every person would take advantage of it anyway. There are a lot of old-fashioned people out there who don't like plastic, no matter what.

2- Considering that it's been taking Ibill about 5 days before bouncing a check, I'm sure that a broadband connection and a site sucker could download the site in that amount of time. We use HomeGrownContent for our video, so what resides on our server is 99.9% photo content.

Wizzo · 2003-11-10, 01:52 PM

You might check out Probilling for your checks...

ezmoves · 2003-11-10, 02:02 PM

great topic...we have found 2 similair trends...more chrage backs from checks..but longer rebills from checks...as the indusrty shacks out, and the visa requirements get stable n set in stone..the more charge backs may off set the longer rebills...time will tell..
ezmoves

Extreme John · 2003-11-10, 05:08 PM

IMHO, online checks are very worth it if your with the right company. We had terrible results with some of the 3rd party processors out there, but currently kick some serious ass with Electracash.com give them a shot.

chilihost · 2003-11-10, 05:50 PM

We tried online checks and got burned every time, the bounce rate averaged about 50% and those who paid by check made sure they sucked out all our content within the first 2 days. We even tried probilling's "bounceless" check and found out that they do get chargebacks and their solution is nowhere what they say it is. We even got probilling to change their terms and conditions since they were misleading and probilling admitted they could not live up to their "bounceless" promise.

When we stopped accepting checks we saw no decrease in our signups. I would recommend finding a good drop-charge dialer for your second payment option, one that is not outrageous in its charges and fees.

Hope that helps,

cheers!

Luke

garv · 2003-11-10, 06:05 PM

I've got a .1% charge back from Credit Cards and had around 40% charge back from cheques. The bandwidth these guys used made it look like they knew exactly what they were doing. So I removed cheques after 6 months and got two complaints from members that were honest with their chequing account. Strangely within 3 weeks both were members again using credit cards.

So it seems if someone wants it enough, they'll find away.

regards
garv

BigJohn · 2003-11-21, 11:40 PM

We just did a site re-design and removed the check options while we were at it. I was getting 60 - 70% bounced and bogus checks. It's bad enough that they get free content, but the worst part was that many of them were affiliate sales, which made for some very unhappy affiliates. I'd much rather lose a few sales because of no checks than to lose even one good affiliate!
|ufo|

Extreme John · 2003-11-22, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigJohn
We just did a site re-design and removed the check options while we were at it. I was getting 60 - 70% bounced and bogus checks. It's bad enough that they get free content, but the worst part was that many of them were affiliate sales, which made for some very unhappy affiliates. I'd much rather lose a few sales because of no checks than to lose even one good affiliate!
|ufo|

Hmmmmm... Every business has it's risk thats for sure, but there's an old saying in retail, that can pretty much be used over and over in most business's.... "Don't merchandise your stores around the thieves, sales cure all ill's" now not many people are going to get that, but trust me it's true. There will always be theives in every business, cutting off revenue streams because of them is like cutting off your feet so you can stand better.

So if chargebacks became higher (assuimg Visa wouldnt cut your nuts off anyway), on your Visa purchases for whatever, does that mean you would only accept Mastercard?

There's plenty of options for checks, non of them in my mind include not taking them anymore. For 3 years I watched my CCBill check sales and rebills max out at X ammount daily & weekly, I watched iBill do the same damn thing, than I took the advice of a good friend of mine, and switched to Electracash (so be it the service isnt all that special), BUT the acceptance and collection rate is at least 3x Greater with them, than it ever was with CCbill & iBill put together, bottom line some comapnies do shit better than other companies, and I couldnt be any happier now that im with Electracash, maybe before I made 20-30% of the total $ seen from checks, and maybe just maybe 70-80% of the checks than were a fraud, who gives a shit, 20-30% of something is better than 100% of ZERO, and now that im with Electracash (and there are others out there too), im nailing down about 60-70% of Check Sales which is much better than 100% of ZERO.

Get my point? Give in to the thieves and EVERYONE LOSES, including the good guy who might only be in the 20% right now, that loves your site, he's at least 20% of something and he wants to give you his money. Let him give you his money!

BigJohn · 2003-11-22, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Extreme John
Hmmmmm... Every business has it's risk thats for sure, but there's an old saying in retail, that can pretty much be used over and over in most business's.... "Don't merchandise your stores around the thieves, sales cure all ill's" now not many people are going to get that, but trust me it's true. There will always be theives in every business, cutting off revenue streams because of them is like cutting off your feet so you can stand better.

So if chargebacks became higher (assuimg Visa wouldnt cut your nuts off anyway), on your Visa purchases for whatever, does that mean you would only accept Mastercard?

There's plenty of options for checks, non of them in my mind include not taking them anymore. For 3 years I watched my CCBill check sales and rebills max out at X ammount daily & weekly, I watched iBill do the same damn thing, than I took the advice of a good friend of mine, and switched to Electracash (so be it the service isnt all that special), BUT the acceptance and collection rate is at least 3x Greater with them, than it ever was with CCbill & iBill put together, bottom line some comapnies do shit better than other companies, and I couldnt be any happier now that im with Electracash, maybe before I made 20-30% of the total $ seen from checks, and maybe just maybe 70-80% of the checks than were a fraud, who gives a shit, 20-30% of something is better than 100% of ZERO, and now that im with Electracash (and there are others out there too), im nailing down about 60-70% of Check Sales which is much better than 100% of ZERO.

Get my point? Give in to the thieves and EVERYONE LOSES, including the good guy who might only be in the 20% right now, that loves your site, he's at least 20% of something and he wants to give you his money. Let him give you his money!

You make some good points but over the last 2 weeks, 6 out of 6 checks were fradulent, not NSF, but totally bogus. Funky names like "Eye Gotu", "Frefor Mee", etc and/or totally bogus addresses with zips that don't match the states or states that don't match the city, etc.

I do a lot of programming work in retail for several Jewelry chains, right now I just happen to be working on credit card processing. Retail (from a visa/mastercard point of view) do "merchandise around thieves". I use to be able to implement a new credit card processor in 2 days, now with all of the checks and balances put into the data stream it takes me over a month! I've also implemented check authorization and it only takes me a day to write the code and certify with a new processor. There's a world of difference here!

Would I only use MC if I got excessive chargebacks from VISA? If the chargebacks were because VISA was letting through fraudulent, bogus charges, then yes I would. If I felt the check chargebacks had anything to do with the quality of my site I would fix my site. I can't battle with fake checks and I have no control over whether a check gets accepted or not.

Plus with every one of the fraudluent checks, the usernames and passwords were posted. Pennywize shut them down, but not before 6 or 7 people for each username sucked down a good portion of my site. I plan to talk to CCBill and to look around for other options, but for now, the best business decision I could make is to remove the check link. I can always add it back in a matter of minutes if I change my mind.

|ufo|

spazlabz · 2003-11-22, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BigJohn
You make some good points but over the last 2 weeks, 6 out of 6 checks were fradulent, not NSF, but totally bogus. Funky names like "Eye Gotu", "Frefor Mee", etc and/or totally bogus addresses with zips that don't match the states or states that don't match the city, etc.

I do a lot of programming work in retail for several Jewelry chains, right now I just happen to be working on credit card processing. Retail (from a visa/mastercard point of view) do "merchandise around thieves". I use to be able to implement a new credit card processor in 2 days, now with all of the checks and balances put into the data stream it takes me over a month! I've also implemented check authorization and it only takes me a day to write the code and certify with a new processor. There's a world of difference here!

Would I only use MC if I got excessive chargebacks from VISA? If the chargebacks were because VISA was letting through fraudulent, bogus charges, then yes I would. If I felt the check chargebacks had anything to do with the quality of my site I would fix my site. I can't battle with fake checks and I have no control over whether a check gets accepted or not.

Plus with every one of the fraudluent checks, the usernames and passwords were posted. Pennywize shut them down, but not before 6 or 7 people for each username sucked down a good portion of my site. I plan to talk to CCBill and to look around for other options, but for now, the best business decision I could make is to remove the check link. I can always add it back in a matter of minutes if I change my mind.

|ufo|

Sentry Password Control is the program we have been using for a few years. You set the number of IPs that can be connected to any username/password and it if goes over that number then they are automatically locked out. We give second chances. Let them know why they were locked and assign them a password that WE CREATE, usually with the initials of the person who created it in it (example..02jw4498) if it happens again we cancell their account. Picture sites dont face quite the challenge all of our sites do (high quality huge file mpgs) as far as BW goes, and a good site ripper can pull huge amounts of content off of les secure servers. Our tech guys have also made it so no one single user can be downloading more than 3 files at any given time. At that rate it takes a bit longer to clean out one of our sites and it foils many less advanced site rippers.

spaz

Extreme John · 2003-11-22, 09:09 AM

BigJohn,

Understood and I respect your opinion and ofcourse what you choose to do is always best for you, hell your the one that has to put up with yourself and the decisions you make, as am I

Im strange when it comes to buisness, always have been, but that works for me. I take Huge risks, I generally always try to go against the "Normal Way" of doing things, I don't give up on things, especially when it comes to making money, my insite would have been wow this week sucks 6 out of 6 checks were bad, we'll get'em next week and probably have 3 out of 6 that will be good, Peenywize is the shit, it always has my back, so even if 6 little bitches and 6 of the little bitches men get through on a free ride, Pennywize will piss them off and Ill make more money off of my "Hey you cheated Bitch" page. I dig CCBill have done business with them for years, (Sean E is the man over there), but one thing I will tell you is that there's nothing for me to talk about with CCBill when it comes to checks, they dont process them for me, and they probably never will again, same goes for iBill. Im just not the type to pass up on X ammount of thousands a week, because of some fraud, checks have always been a shitty business, but it's a shitty business that gets deposited into my account every night

BigJohn · 2003-11-22, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spazlabz
Sentry Password Control is the program we have been using for a few years. You set the number of IPs that can be connected to any username/password and it if goes over that number then they are automatically locked out. We give second chances. Let them know why they were locked and assign them a password that WE CREATE, usually with the initials of the person who created it in it (example..02jw4498) if it happens again we cancell their account. Picture sites dont face quite the challenge all of our sites do (high quality huge file mpgs) as far as BW goes, and a good site ripper can pull huge amounts of content off of les secure servers. Our tech guys have also made it so no one single user can be downloading more than 3 files at any given time. At that rate it takes a bit longer to clean out one of our sites and it foils many less advanced site rippers.

spaz

Thanks for the Info spaz, I'll check out sentry password control.
Pennywize lets me do some of blockage, nothing for simultaneous downloading of files, just multiple password accesses and the length of timeout.

|ufo|

MrsHackula · 2003-11-24, 07:33 PM

Well, Ibill has just recently made an announcement regarding online checks... They are supposedly "releasing several fraud related product enhancements" in regards to checks.

"These enhancements include an internal negative database scrub and proprietary fraud detection tools. In addition to these enhancements, we will be implementing a fraud attempt lock-out tool that will further reduce the frequency of unauthorized transactions."

So at least they are trying to do something about it! I think we will take a "wait and see" approach now, and leave checks up for a while longer, to see if this helps.

Jim · 2003-11-24, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Extreme John
IMHO, online checks are very worth it if your with the right company. We had terrible results with some of the 3rd party processors out there, but currently kick some serious ass with Electracash.com give them a shot.

I agree with you John except I don't have a processor to recommend.

Extreme John · 2003-11-24, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim
I agree with you John except I don't have a processor to recommend.

I hear you Jim, actually im generally pretty cautious when it comes to recomending anything, to anyone. In the case of Electra cash thats just based on my personal stats, like I said the service has always left a lot to be desired, but the $ ammount keeps me extremely happy. Hell happy enough to

SirMoby · 2003-11-25, 10:35 AM

One way to look at this is financial risk vs. financial gain. It's all about making money right?

If a check is bogus and a surfer gets free access to your site for a couple of days what did that cost you? It may piss you off but what exactly was your financial loss?

When you think about it you may suddenly realise that there's a big ratio of bogus to good checks that is still profitable.

urb · 2003-11-25, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirMoby
It may piss you off but what exactly was your financial loss?

When you think about it you may suddenly realise that there's a big ratio of bogus to good checks that is still profitable.

I agree.

Extreme John · 2003-11-25, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SirMoby
One way to look at this is financial risk vs. financial gain. It's all about making money right?

If a check is bogus and a surfer gets free access to your site for a couple of days what did that cost you? It may piss you off but what exactly was your financial loss?

When you think about it you may suddenly realise that there's a big ratio of bogus to good checks that is still profitable.

Perfectly said.

2003-11-10, 11:25 AM	#1
MrsHackula I'm going to the backseat of my car with the woman I love, and I won't be back for TEN MINUTES Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 86	Paysite Owners: Are Online Checks Worth It? We are so torn about whether to continue offering online checks. Currently about 1/3rd of all initial check signups bounce. I also highly suspect that surfers are becoming more aware of the security flaw inherent in using online checks with instant access... They can make up any info they want, and get into a site for free for days before the "check" bounces. I've noticed some wanna-be hackers getting un/pws and posting them to password boards this way too. On the other hand, when checks are good, they tend to rebill better than credit cards. So what are your thoughts on accepting online checks?

2003-11-10, 11:36 AM	#2
urb All the way from Room 101 Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 3,557	Do you think the surfers who paid by check (and are rebilling) would have used their plastic if there was no other option? Also, how much of your site can a surfer download (with broadband) in the space of time it takes for a check to clear? __________________

2003-11-10, 02:02 PM	#5
ezmoves Rock stars ... is there anything they don't know? Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: oceanside california Posts: 16	great topic...we have found 2 similair trends...more chrage backs from checks..but longer rebills from checks...as the indusrty shacks out, and the visa requirements get stable n set in stone..the more charge backs may off set the longer rebills...time will tell.. ezmoves __________________ http://www.sexycitycash.com

2003-11-10, 05:08 PM	#6
Extreme John Afro John says: "Touch The Extreme Afro & You'll Be In Extreme Pain!" Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: FL Posts: 1,671	IMHO, online checks are very worth it if your with the right company. We had terrible results with some of the 3rd party processors out there, but currently kick some serious ass with Electracash.com give them a shot. __________________ September 6, 2007

2003-11-10, 05:50 PM	#7
chilihost Look at 'em. Watchin' my TV. Sittin on my couch. You better not be in my ass groove! Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 465	We tried online checks and got burned every time, the bounce rate averaged about 50% and those who paid by check made sure they sucked out all our content within the first 2 days. We even tried probilling's "bounceless" check and found out that they do get chargebacks and their solution is nowhere what they say it is. We even got probilling to change their terms and conditions since they were misleading and probilling admitted they could not live up to their "bounceless" promise. When we stopped accepting checks we saw no decrease in our signups. I would recommend finding a good drop-charge dialer for your second payment option, one that is not outrageous in its charges and fees. Hope that helps, cheers! Luke __________________ HunkMoney+BritishBucks+LatinoBucks=50+ gay sites!

2003-11-10, 01:31 PM	#3
MrsHackula I'm going to the backseat of my car with the woman I love, and I won't be back for TEN MINUTES Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 86	1- That's really hard to say. In the U.S. it's become pretty common for banks to offer a free debit card when getting a checking account. That card can be used to sign up just like a credit card, so those people would be able to sign up regardless. However, not every bank offers this, and not every person would take advantage of it anyway. There are a lot of old-fashioned people out there who don't like plastic, no matter what. 2- Considering that it's been taking Ibill about 5 days before bouncing a check, I'm sure that a broadband connection and a site sucker could download the site in that amount of time. We use HomeGrownContent for our video, so what resides on our server is 99.9% photo content.

2003-11-10, 01:52 PM	#4
Wizzo Well you know boys, a nuclear reactor is a lot like women. You just have to read the manual and press the right button Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Back In Houston! Posts: 155	You might check out Probilling for your checks...

2003-11-10, 06:05 PM	#8
garv They have the Internet on computers, now? Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Paris Posts: 145	I've got a .1% charge back from Credit Cards and had around 40% charge back from cheques. The bandwidth these guys used made it look like they knew exactly what they were doing. So I removed cheques after 6 months and got two complaints from members that were honest with their chequing account. Strangely within 3 weeks both were members again using credit cards. So it seems if someone wants it enough, they'll find away. regards garv

2003-11-21, 11:40 PM	#9
BigJohn Operator! Give me the number for 911! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Left coast rain country Posts: 130	We just did a site re-design and removed the check options while we were at it. I was getting 60 - 70% bounced and bogus checks. It's bad enough that they get free content, but the worst part was that many of them were affiliate sales, which made for some very unhappy affiliates. I'd much rather lose a few sales because of no checks than to lose even one good affiliate! \|ufo\| __________________ -BigJohn <br>Promising the moon<br>and delivering!

2003-11-22, 09:09 AM	#13
Extreme John Afro John says: "Touch The Extreme Afro & You'll Be In Extreme Pain!" Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: FL Posts: 1,671	BigJohn, Understood and I respect your opinion and ofcourse what you choose to do is always best for you, hell your the one that has to put up with yourself and the decisions you make, as am I Im strange when it comes to buisness, always have been, but that works for me. I take Huge risks, I generally always try to go against the "Normal Way" of doing things, I don't give up on things, especially when it comes to making money, my insite would have been wow this week sucks 6 out of 6 checks were bad, we'll get'em next week and probably have 3 out of 6 that will be good, Peenywize is the shit, it always has my back, so even if 6 little bitches and 6 of the little bitches men get through on a free ride, Pennywize will piss them off and Ill make more money off of my "Hey you cheated Bitch" page. I dig CCBill have done business with them for years, (Sean E is the man over there), but one thing I will tell you is that there's nothing for me to talk about with CCBill when it comes to checks, they dont process them for me, and they probably never will again, same goes for iBill. Im just not the type to pass up on X ammount of thousands a week, because of some fraud, checks have always been a shitty business, but it's a shitty business that gets deposited into my account every night __________________ September 6, 2007

2003-11-24, 07:33 PM	#15
MrsHackula I'm going to the backseat of my car with the woman I love, and I won't be back for TEN MINUTES Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 86	Well, Ibill has just recently made an announcement regarding online checks... They are supposedly "releasing several fraud related product enhancements" in regards to checks. "These enhancements include an internal negative database scrub and proprietary fraud detection tools. In addition to these enhancements, we will be implementing a fraud attempt lock-out tool that will further reduce the frequency of unauthorized transactions." So at least they are trying to do something about it! I think we will take a "wait and see" approach now, and leave checks up for a while longer, to see if this helps.

2003-11-25, 10:35 AM	#18
SirMoby Jim? I heard he's a dirty pornographer. Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 2,706	One way to look at this is financial risk vs. financial gain. It's all about making money right? If a check is bogus and a surfer gets free access to your site for a couple of days what did that cost you? It may piss you off but what exactly was your financial loss? When you think about it you may suddenly realise that there's a big ratio of bogus to good checks that is still profitable.