Katrina aftermath - what the fuck??? - Page 4

RawAlex · 2005-09-05, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Now I think I feel kinda dumb for having donated money.

Next time I'll know better.

I am starting to get the same feeling... which is sad.

Jim · 2005-09-05, 03:40 PM

I have actually been able to stay away from news stations for the past few days. I feel good about my children's and my donations. Living in NYS, there really is nothing more I can do than give money. I do hope it goes to the right place.

If I were closer, I would do as much as I possibly could. When the twin towers went down, my wife and 2 boys jumped in my truck and followed the fire trucks down the thruway. We were stopped from entering the city but again, we did make quite a large donation. And at that time, we really couldn't afford it.

I do blame the government for not getting people out faster. I do blame the government for not getting supplies faster. Taking care of our people during and after a disaster is the government's responsibility. And they let everyone down....again.

Tubey · 2005-09-05, 04:18 PM

I am waiting on blaming anyone, there are too many variables. Besides they didn't know where the storm was going exactly, they had it going over NO then it went to the east some models were even predicting it to west of NO. So the question of where to put supplies and how much was unpredictable. Who knows they may have had a wharehouse full in NO and someone lost the keys.
In short, I find fault with everyone, from the govt to the people who refused to leave, and it becomes a big circle of what if. People have to realize errors happen and to have a perfect plan will never happen in a disaster this large.
So I wait, try to figure out what went wrong and try to prevent it from happening again. To sit here and get worked up about it now won't change what happened, it just adds more frustration and divides the effort to fix the problem at hand. As one person once said "hind sight is 20/20."

RawAlex · 2005-09-05, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubey

I am waiting on blaming anyone, there are too many variables. Besides they didn't know where the storm was going exactly, they had it going over NO then it went to the east some models were even predicting it to west of NO. So the question of where to put supplies and how much was unpredictable. Who knows they may have had a wharehouse full in NO and someone lost the keys.
In short, I find fault with everyone, from the govt to the people who refused to leave, and it becomes a big circle of what if. People have to realize errors happen and to have a perfect plan will never happen in a disaster this large.
So I wait, try to figure out what went wrong and try to prevent it from happening again. To sit here and get worked up about it now won't change what happened, it just adds more frustration and divides the effort to fix the problem at hand. As one person once said "hind sight is 20/20."

Tubey, no matter which way the storm goes, the people should have been ready - the military should have been on alert, the first round of supplies should have been in the trucks, and the fema people should have been ready to go.

It shouldn't have taken until Wednesday or Thursday to get these people on the ground.

SOMEONE dropped the ball - and the buck stops with the guy in the oval office (actually, he was the guy in a ranch in Texas taking a vacation until 2 days after the storm hit).

They still don't have a grip - why they have not ordered an evacuation of New Orleans is beyond me. they are still "just asking".

The head and the chicken have long since been seperated.

docholly · 2005-09-05, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Now I think I feel kinda dumb for having donated money.

Next time I'll know better.

If you gave it with an honest heart, no need to feel bad at all. We are each responsible for our own actions as well as those who are unable, for whatever the reason, help themselves.

Bill · 2005-09-05, 11:02 PM

Well, I was exaggerating momentary feelings of queasiness. I don't really feel that way.

I think I was trying to say something about how this situation is so extreme, and the political spinning and illusion-making on all sides is so extreme, that it's impossible to know how to feel about it.

Can't trust the media.

Can't trust the government.

FEMA wants me to give money to Operation Blessing and Second Harvest.

The reports of gunfire at helicopters are shown to be lies. The reports that Gov. Blanco didn't "file the proper paperwork", which filled the media, are shown to be lies. Someone created and coldly used those lies.

And the implications of what CaptainJ appears to be saying are depressing.

It's a crazy, ugly, sad situation. In situations like this, who knows if it's right to give money, and if the money you give will be used properly?

docholly · 2005-09-05, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Well, I was exaggerating momentary feelings of queasiness. I don't really feel that way.

well actually when i first read that response i was like surely he is being sarcastic.. then when RA weighed in, i was like hmmm i must be having a "old-timers" moment and just not getting it..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Can't trust the media.

Can't trust the government.

FEMA wants me to give money to Operation Blessing and Second Harvest.

The reports of gunfire at helicopters are shown to be lies. The reports that Gov. Blanco didn't "file the proper paperwork", which filled the media, are shown to be lies. Someone created and coldly used those lies.

And the implications of what CaptainJ appears to be saying are depressing.

I would consider the source of the information as well. Even eye witness accounts can differ depending on whose eyes are doing the viewing.

RawAlex · 2005-09-06, 12:02 AM

docholly, I wain't kidding... I don't feel great. Thankfully I gave money to the Red Cross rather than to any other organization, they seem to be have been first on the scene (even losing some of the vehicles to flooding... FEMA can't even suggest to claim that).

There is some very serious concern that someone important dropped the ball, and already the signs of coverup and misdirection are in the air. I feel truly sorry for those people caught in the middle - the people of Mississippi and Louisiana who are dealing with terrible conditions and horrific losses of both life and property.

The smell is travelling very far indeed.

CaptainJSparrow · 2005-09-06, 12:20 AM

In the "for what it's worth category" I've seen alot of Red Cross folks in Baton Rouge, Sorrento, and New Orleans over the last 2 days.

Also, New Orleans police reported shooting and killing 4 persons who were firing at workers who were trying to plug the hole in the levee.

Local news that you guys may not be aware of:

-- Lt. General Russel Honore, who is overseeing the military effort in New Orleans, estimates about 10,000 people remain in the city. He says the city is not under siege, as has been reported.

-- Wireless carriers are returning service to the New Orleans area. Verizon Wireless said crews are working to restore service to New Orleans, Mandeville, Hammond, Covington and other cities. Cell phone service has been restored to the New Orleans airport, which is being used for evacuations.

-- The Murphy Oil complex in Meraux is leaking oil into a surrounding neighborhood. The leak was spotted in a flyover by the state Department of Environmental Quality.

-- Traffic was jammed in Jefferson Parish as residents returned to check on their homes and businesses. People started lining up in their cars in the night to get a head start into the parish. The parish permitted cars in at 6 a.m.

-- ExxonMobil, which was worried about supplies to its refinery in Baton Rouge, now is increasing production here. Energy experts fear an energy crisis will take an economic toll this winter because of production and refining disruptions combined with an expected harsh winter. ExxonMobil expects an increase in supply of oil from the Louisiana Offshore Oil Port, a critical facility that is used to offload oil from supertankers. The port in Venice was not damaged in the storm. ExxonMobil also says the U.S. Department of Energy has approved a request to borrow 6 million barrels of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve

furrygirl · 2005-09-06, 02:17 AM

A list of alternative places to donate funds: http://www.sparkplugfoundation.org/katrinarelief.html

Halfdeck · 2005-09-06, 03:01 AM

I'm glad I donated to the Red Cross and I'm proud to know that many webmasters on this board also donated. It tells me unlike some people that were slow to respond in this disaster, webmasters here responded quickly and generously.

People believe what they want to believe and sometimes what we end up believing can be so far from the truth its scary.

I'm not down in NO nor was I with George Bush on Monday so I'm not going to pretend I know shit about what's going on just because I have access to a TV set and the internet.

CaptainJSparrow · 2005-09-06, 12:38 PM

Hey, a buddy of mine is in the National Guard and he called and said that the military has shot 9 people so far for looting. He also said that the Army Rangers are in there now. Also, he walked Bourbon Street and said it doesn't even look like a hurricane came thru...said no water and it was clean!

CaptainJSparrow · 2005-09-07, 10:17 PM

For anyone that is still interested, following is a copy of an article that a friend of mine sent to her e-mail list:

It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure

out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them,

because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going

on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think

that we are confronting a natural disaster.

If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is

obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation

to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop

the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists,

natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary

people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of

doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up

and rebuild.

Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to

do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they

are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists--myself

included--did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind,

and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting.

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by

federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane

Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel

has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not

happen over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades.

Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be

confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave

in an emergency--indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in

other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have

been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is

not even what we expect from a Third World country.

When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion.

They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously

organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in

America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own

initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of

us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town

whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get

out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars

through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of

New Yorkers to September 11).

So what explains the chaos in New Orleans?

To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a

description from a <http://tinyurl.com/auyju> Washington Times story:

"Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists,

knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and

police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on.

"The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured

in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire....

"Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened

Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with

shoot-to-kill orders.

"'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,'

she said. 'They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops

know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if

necessary and I expect they will.' "

The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article

shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests, riding on an

armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of

squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It

looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad.

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for

an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to

storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the

drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to

attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further

destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help

them?

My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a

sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News

Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She

studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is

located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert

Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in

America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for

uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since,

mercifully, been <http://tinyurl.com/9hu4u>

demolished.)

What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a

whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"--the

informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news

channels--gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the

residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and

of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the city's

public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then gave me an additional,

crucial fact: early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had

no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails--so they

just let many of them loose. There is no doubt a significant overlap

between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the

jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa.

There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the

deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from

two

groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over

decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The

welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent

administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves.

All of this is related, incidentally, to the apparent incompetence of

the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the

city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. But in a city

corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure

the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political

supporters--not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of

emergency.

No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact,

some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for

example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans

had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an

execrable piece from the <http://tinyurl.com/ah5j7> Toronto Globe and

Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American

"individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was

caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the

welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is

behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the

responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to

a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to

overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain

that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos

of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about

saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own

anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their

businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried

about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But

living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them.

The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains

and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral

ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one

is reporting.

Bill · 2005-09-07, 10:39 PM

You do know that most of the news agencies are now saying the stories of armed gangs, rapes, and shooting at rescuers have been proven to be false, or at best, unsupported?

I've been looking for hard, confirmed evidence of crimes like these. So far, there has been almost nothing.

There has been suggestions that these stories were invented, I gather the prime suspect is FEMA and "anonymous senior officials" to justify their inaction.

Has anyone seen hard news stories confirming "Road Warrior" type shit?

Halfdeck · 2005-09-07, 11:01 PM

Nice article Captain.

Lemmy · 2005-09-07, 11:22 PM

The problem isn't with the welfare state, because America isn't one. Among all the countries in Western civilization that we like to compare us with America is the one that cares least about the welfare of the individual.

I suspect most of us would have acted like animals after a while if left to our own devices in a disaster stricken city. It's a typical American response to "shoot to kill" rather than address the cause of the problem. It's also probably cheaper in the short term and has the added benefit of thinning out the population of stupid, incompetent, lazy, drunken fucks in the public housing projects. It's a win-win situation.

Here's my response to that: Fuck the governor of Louisiana, who, from her dry safety in Baton Rouge, advocates a shoot to kill policy against people with no other means who help themselves to baby formula, bread and soda in an effort to stay alive.

Anyone who still denies incompetence at local, regional and national levels in connection with Katrina really hasn't been paying attention. Or they're just plain dumb.

The same goes for anyone who doesn't see the connection here with the racial divide America still is struggling with some 140 years after slavery was abolished. Imagine had this happened in Boston MA or Westchester County, NY. But it happened in NOLA, a city with 60% mostly poor, dumb, black crack heads. I'm beginning to see where Neil Young got his inspiration from.

furrygirl · 2005-09-08, 01:16 AM

Besides the same old, "Do we blame those poor black crackheads, or do we blame the rich white cokehead running the country?" debate, does any have any leads for groups that are taking on-the-ground volunteers WITHOUT medical training?

I've been looking for days, and I can not find a group who does human or animal rescues in flooded areas that accept non-professionals. Seriously, do really I need a degree to be able to round up stray dogs or pass out blankets? It's incredibly frustrating that with the current bottle-necking of resources coming in to the area, everyone wants money, but not personel. I don't drive or own a car, I don't have a boat, I don't live in the south, but surely there's some sort of formal project that needs actual physical help.

Linkster · 2005-09-08, 06:22 AM

furry girl
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer...cane_volunteer
although no one is gonna allow someone to enter the city to rescue animals without training right now - there are plenty of volunteer jobs available in the area - someone needs to care for these animals as they are brought in and for someone that hasnt been trained in the handling of possible rabid, contaminated animals, it would be suicide to try the rescue phase - but the shelters are begging for volunteers to take care of the animals

Linkster · 2005-09-08, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemmy

The problem isn't with the welfare state, because America isn't one. .

Lemmy - the problem is that (having lived there and going back constantly) New Orleans is a welfare state - true the rest of the country is not on average but there are pockets in Wash DC, Chicago, etc - and I think the point here is that what was left after the initial call for evacuation was a complete welfare state.
The interesting comment I heard yesterday - and most people have missed this - the murder/rape/injury rate in New Orleans that youve been hearing about (possibly blown out of proportion for news casts but thats another topic) is way lower than the normal rate for that city - all the tourists and cabbies are gone so they dont have anyone to kill.
The gang related violence is a hidden, but definitely a huge part of New Orleans - it doesnt get a lot of publicity - they would lose the convention and tourism trade if it was publicized.
Most of the people that are causing the problems that are being reported are the gangs that dont want to lose their "turf" and are protecting it - the police units know who they are - and are trying to deal with them - but its tough when you still have a quarter of the police force out of communication (not their fault - its a command and control issue with the mayor) and still holing up in certain parts of the city as separate "police forces" that are slowly being brought back into the response organization - its just a matter of getting them the comms and directing the separate "precincts" into one force.

I also disagree that it has anything whatsoever to do with race - its class - and that is something the city just did not plan for - no matter what the politics and news spinners spew - it is just a logistical fact that the class of people that are still there are not people with the means to get themselves out of the city - and every city in this country has the same problem - they dont have a plan to evacuated "everyone" - they depend on personal vehicles for most of it.
The only difference in this case against other cities is that New Orleans is actually a smaller city and we are just lucky this was not a city like NYC where we would be facing hundreds of thousands of deaths - something to think about.

furrygirl · 2005-09-08, 06:37 AM

Thanks for the link, I've already emailed every animal group in the area, although HSUS and the ASPCA seem to be the only ones at the timewho are being allowed into disafter areas. No one's gotten back to me yet, and as far as I can tell from message boards, there simply are no openings for non-pros in animal or human aid.

If I lived down there, I'd be happy to open my yard to a bunch of dogs, but as a non-driver, trying to get dehydrated, hungry, sick, possibly injured animals to my home in Seattle would be too much of a headache.

I've actually gotten quite a biting from a (possibly rabid) stray cat before and been through rabies treatments, so it is a risk I'm truly aware of the pain of. I've known a few people who have done animal rescues in SoCal after major fires, and it's pretty much being scratched to hell, fighting with scared, injured animals who have found themselves their own safe place and don't want anyone touching them. It's not a fun vacation, and it's not about snuggling with cuddly wuddly puppies and kittens. Animals, like humans, tend to go a bit feral when left to completely fend for themselves.

CaptainJSparrow · 2005-09-08, 10:03 AM

Linkster....what you said. You hit the nail on the head.

It's too bad that you folks can only watch the national news where each station is striving hard to scream "the sky is falling" the loudest and with the most emphasis on each and every word. We have a local station that is much more unbiased. We're seeing pictures from New Orleans that are filmed by locals. We're hearing stories from folks that we know that are in New Orleans right now, who are calling us, and telling us what is actually going on.

None of the authorities are shooting folks looting for food and water. There are stores in New Orleans, Walmart is one of them, that opened their doors and are giving away food and bottled water.

Nah, the looters that the authorities are ordered to shoot are the ones that are trying to take advantage of the situation. The ones that are stealing electronics and other valuables. The people that don't want to leave because, for them, it is a huge oportunity to steal.

My ex-wife's cousin stayed throughout the storm in Metarie, but left 2 days ago because she saw looters every night breaking into homes around her.

Bill · 2005-09-08, 02:46 PM

Well, I've been looking for news reports to confirm that there was murder, armed gangs, rampaging and rapes. So far nothing, but the day is young.

I did find this first hand report by two EMS folks who were trapped in a hotel by Katrina.

I think we all heard the story about how this group pooled money to hire a bus convoy to take them out of the city, but that the national guard stopped the busses and commandeered them for some unknown (to the news sources) use.

Well, this same group had a hard time, spending four days trapped inside the city.

http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman/pub...le_18337.shtml

Here's a bit from the article:

"From a woman with a battery powered radio we learned that the media was talking about us. Up in full view on the freeway, every relief and news organizations saw us on their way into the City. Officials were being asked what they were going to do about all those families living up on the freeway? The officials responded they were going to take care of us. Some of us got a sinking feeling. "Taking care of us" had an ominous tone to it.

Unfortunately, our sinking feeling (along with the sinking City) was correct. Just as dusk set in, a Gretna Sheriff showed up, jumped out of his patrol vehicle, aimed his gun at our faces, screaming, "Get off the fucking freeway". A helicopter arrived and used the wind from its blades to blow away our flimsy structures. As we retreated, the sheriff loaded up his truck with our food and water.

Once again, at gunpoint, we were forced off the freeway. All the law enforcement agencies appeared threatened when we congregated or congealed into groups of 20 or more. In every congregation of "victims" they saw "mob" or "riot". We felt safety in numbers. Our "we must stay together" was impossible because the agencies would force us into small atomized groups."

So - the authorities apparently _STOLE_ this groups food and water to force them out of the public eye.

CaptainJSparrow · 2005-09-08, 03:15 PM

On the local news, the New Orleans police chief just confirmed that his officers were shot at from the Superdome.

Also, the news confirmed that locals are throwing rocks at the National Guardsmen.

Gotta tell ya...the more I hear, I'm kinda embarrassed about our governor. I hear that the President gave her two options, and she told him she needed 24 hours to think about it. Apparently, she is having problems making decisions.

Bill · 2005-09-08, 03:28 PM

Well, here is a reference to a "shoot out".

The only shoot out that I've seen clearly mentioned on the TV news was an incident where supposedly armed men "on a briedge" fired at rescue workers, and the police fired back. The first report was the 5 locals had been killed, that was later revised to 2 killed, two wounded, and others missing.

One version of this I heard in a blog was that the men who were killed were not firing _at_ rescue workers, they were firing in the air to attract the attention of rescue workers. The police then fired on them. Not sure if this is true, but it does match some television reports I've seen, in which Nawliners were complaining that they were shot at after firing guns to attract help.

I'm not sure if this is the same incident:

From Reporters Sans Frontiers

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14894

Police violence against journalists in New Orleans in Katrina aftermath

"A second incident involved Gordon Russell of the New Orleans-based Times-Picayune daily as he was covering a shoot-out between police and local residents near the convention centre where hurricane victims were awaiting evacuation. The police detained Russell and smashed all of his equipment on the ground. Russell was forced to flee to avoid further violence and reportedly left the city the same day."

Bill · 2005-09-08, 03:41 PM

Does the local channel you are watching have a website Jeff?

As far as I'm concerned, Louisiana can shoot or imprision anybody they want to. It's not my state, and not my city. I don't live in the city. I assumed all cities have a hard core of poor and lower class people who commit most of the casual crime.

I'm just interested in the facts.

2005-09-06, 02:17 AM	#85
furrygirl No offence Apu, but when they were handing out religions you must have been out taking a whizz Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 281	A list of alternative places to donate funds: http://www.sparkplugfoundation.org/katrinarelief.html __________________ furrygirl.com & vegporn.com & vegsexshop.com & eroticred.com

2005-09-06, 03:01 AM	#86
Halfdeck You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Haven, CT Posts: 985	I'm glad I donated to the Red Cross and I'm proud to know that many webmasters on this board also donated. It tells me unlike some people that were slow to respond in this disaster, webmasters here responded quickly and generously. People believe what they want to believe and sometimes what we end up believing can be so far from the truth its scary. I'm not down in NO nor was I with George Bush on Monday so I'm not going to pretend I know shit about what's going on just because I have access to a TV set and the internet. __________________ Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiasm.

2005-09-07, 11:01 PM	#90
Halfdeck You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Haven, CT Posts: 985	Nice article Captain. __________________ Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiasm.

2005-09-07, 11:22 PM	#91
Lemmy You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Next door to a kid with a moped. Posts: 1,492	The problem isn't with the welfare state, because America isn't one. Among all the countries in Western civilization that we like to compare us with America is the one that cares least about the welfare of the individual. I suspect most of us would have acted like animals after a while if left to our own devices in a disaster stricken city. It's a typical American response to "shoot to kill" rather than address the cause of the problem. It's also probably cheaper in the short term and has the added benefit of thinning out the population of stupid, incompetent, lazy, drunken fucks in the public housing projects. It's a win-win situation. Here's my response to that: Fuck the governor of Louisiana, who, from her dry safety in Baton Rouge, advocates a shoot to kill policy against people with no other means who help themselves to baby formula, bread and soda in an effort to stay alive. Anyone who still denies incompetence at local, regional and national levels in connection with Katrina really hasn't been paying attention. Or they're just plain dumb. The same goes for anyone who doesn't see the connection here with the racial divide America still is struggling with some 140 years after slavery was abolished. Imagine had this happened in Boston MA or Westchester County, NY. But it happened in NOLA, a city with 60% mostly poor, dumb, black crack heads. I'm beginning to see where Neil Young got his inspiration from. __________________ BUY MY PORNSITES!

2005-09-08, 01:16 AM	#92
furrygirl No offence Apu, but when they were handing out religions you must have been out taking a whizz Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 281	Besides the same old, "Do we blame those poor black crackheads, or do we blame the rich white cokehead running the country?" debate, does any have any leads for groups that are taking on-the-ground volunteers WITHOUT medical training? I've been looking for days, and I can not find a group who does human or animal rescues in flooded areas that accept non-professionals. Seriously, do really I need a degree to be able to round up stray dogs or pass out blankets? It's incredibly frustrating that with the current bottle-necking of resources coming in to the area, everyone wants money, but not personel. I don't drive or own a car, I don't have a boat, I don't live in the south, but surely there's some sort of formal project that needs actual physical help. __________________ furrygirl.com & vegporn.com & vegsexshop.com & eroticred.com

2005-09-05, 03:40 PM	#77
Jim Banned Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Mohawk, New York Posts: 19,477	I have actually been able to stay away from news stations for the past few days. I feel good about my children's and my donations. Living in NYS, there really is nothing more I can do than give money. I do hope it goes to the right place. If I were closer, I would do as much as I possibly could. When the twin towers went down, my wife and 2 boys jumped in my truck and followed the fire trucks down the thruway. We were stopped from entering the city but again, we did make quite a large donation. And at that time, we really couldn't afford it. I do blame the government for not getting people out faster. I do blame the government for not getting supplies faster. Taking care of our people during and after a disaster is the government's responsibility. And they let everyone down....again.

2005-09-05, 04:18 PM	#78
Tubey Are you sure you're an accredited and honored pornographer? Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 60	I am waiting on blaming anyone, there are too many variables. Besides they didn't know where the storm was going exactly, they had it going over NO then it went to the east some models were even predicting it to west of NO. So the question of where to put supplies and how much was unpredictable. Who knows they may have had a wharehouse full in NO and someone lost the keys. In short, I find fault with everyone, from the govt to the people who refused to leave, and it becomes a big circle of what if. People have to realize errors happen and to have a perfect plan will never happen in a disaster this large. So I wait, try to figure out what went wrong and try to prevent it from happening again. To sit here and get worked up about it now won't change what happened, it just adds more frustration and divides the effort to fix the problem at hand. As one person once said "hind sight is 20/20."

2005-09-05, 11:02 PM	#81
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	Well, I was exaggerating momentary feelings of queasiness. I don't really feel that way. I think I was trying to say something about how this situation is so extreme, and the political spinning and illusion-making on all sides is so extreme, that it's impossible to know how to feel about it. Can't trust the media. Can't trust the government. FEMA wants me to give money to Operation Blessing and Second Harvest. The reports of gunfire at helicopters are shown to be lies. The reports that Gov. Blanco didn't "file the proper paperwork", which filled the media, are shown to be lies. Someone created and coldly used those lies. And the implications of what CaptainJ appears to be saying are depressing. It's a crazy, ugly, sad situation. In situations like this, who knows if it's right to give money, and if the money you give will be used properly?

2005-09-06, 12:02 AM	#83
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	docholly, I wain't kidding... I don't feel great. Thankfully I gave money to the Red Cross rather than to any other organization, they seem to be have been first on the scene (even losing some of the vehicles to flooding... FEMA can't even suggest to claim that). There is some very serious concern that someone important dropped the ball, and already the signs of coverup and misdirection are in the air. I feel truly sorry for those people caught in the middle - the people of Mississippi and Louisiana who are dealing with terrible conditions and horrific losses of both life and property. The smell is travelling very far indeed.

2005-09-06, 12:20 AM	#84
CaptainJSparrow You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Louisiana Posts: 511	In the "for what it's worth category" I've seen alot of Red Cross folks in Baton Rouge, Sorrento, and New Orleans over the last 2 days. Also, New Orleans police reported shooting and killing 4 persons who were firing at workers who were trying to plug the hole in the levee. Local news that you guys may not be aware of: -- Lt. General Russel Honore, who is overseeing the military effort in New Orleans, estimates about 10,000 people remain in the city. He says the city is not under siege, as has been reported. -- Wireless carriers are returning service to the New Orleans area. Verizon Wireless said crews are working to restore service to New Orleans, Mandeville, Hammond, Covington and other cities. Cell phone service has been restored to the New Orleans airport, which is being used for evacuations. -- The Murphy Oil complex in Meraux is leaking oil into a surrounding neighborhood. The leak was spotted in a flyover by the state Department of Environmental Quality. -- Traffic was jammed in Jefferson Parish as residents returned to check on their homes and businesses. People started lining up in their cars in the night to get a head start into the parish. The parish permitted cars in at 6 a.m. -- ExxonMobil, which was worried about supplies to its refinery in Baton Rouge, now is increasing production here. Energy experts fear an energy crisis will take an economic toll this winter because of production and refining disruptions combined with an expected harsh winter. ExxonMobil expects an increase in supply of oil from the Louisiana Offshore Oil Port, a critical facility that is used to offload oil from supertankers. The port in Venice was not damaged in the storm. ExxonMobil also says the U.S. Department of Energy has approved a request to borrow 6 million barrels of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve

2005-09-06, 12:38 PM	#87
CaptainJSparrow You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Louisiana Posts: 511	Hey, a buddy of mine is in the National Guard and he called and said that the military has shot 9 people so far for looting. He also said that the Army Rangers are in there now. Also, he walked Bourbon Street and said it doesn't even look like a hurricane came thru...said no water and it was clean!

2005-09-07, 10:17 PM	#88
CaptainJSparrow You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Louisiana Posts: 511	For anyone that is still interested, following is a copy of an article that a friend of mine sent to her e-mail list: It has taken four long days for state and federal officials to figure out how to deal with the disaster in New Orleans. I can't blame them, because it has also taken me four long days to figure out what is going on there. The reason is that the events there make no sense if you think that we are confronting a natural disaster. If this is just a natural disaster, the response for public officials is obvious: you bring in food, water, and doctors; you send transportation to evacuate refugees to temporary shelters; you send engineers to stop the flooding and rebuild the city's infrastructure. For journalists, natural disasters also have a familiar pattern: the heroism of ordinary people pulling together to survive; the hard work and dedication of doctors, nurses, and rescue workers; the steps being taken to clean up and rebuild. Public officials did not expect that the first thing they would have to do is to send thousands of armed troops in armored vehicle, as if they are suppressing an enemy insurgency. And journalists--myself included--did not expect that the story would not be about rain, wind, and flooding, but about rape, murder, and looting. But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster. The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong. The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over the past four days. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view. The man-made disaster is the welfare state. For the past few days, I have found the news from New Orleans to be confusing. People were not behaving as you would expect them to behave in an emergency--indeed, they were not behaving as they have behaved in other emergencies. That is what has shocked so many people: they have been saying that this is not what we expect from America. In fact, it is not even what we expect from a Third World country. When confronted with a disaster, people usually rise to the occasion. They work together to rescue people in danger, and they spontaneously organize to keep order and solve problems. This is especially true in America. We are an enterprising people, used to relying on our own initiative rather than waiting around for the government to take care of us. I have seen this a hundred times, in small examples (a small town whose main traffic light had gone out, causing ordinary citizens to get out of their cars and serve as impromptu traffic cops, directing cars through the intersection) and large ones (the spontaneous response of New Yorkers to September 11). So what explains the chaos in New Orleans? To give you an idea of the magnitude of what is going on, here is a description from a <http://tinyurl.com/auyju> Washington Times story: "Storm victims are raped and beaten; fights erupt with flying fists, knives and guns; fires are breaking out; corpses litter the streets; and police and rescue helicopters are repeatedly fired on. "The plea from Mayor C. Ray Nagin came even as National Guardsmen poured in to restore order and stop the looting, carjackings and gunfire.... "Last night, Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco said 300 Iraq-hardened Arkansas National Guard members were inside New Orleans with shoot-to-kill orders. "'These troops are...under my orders to restore order in the streets,' she said. 'They have M-16s, and they are locked and loaded. These troops know how to shoot and kill and they are more than willing to do so if necessary and I expect they will.' " The reference to Iraq is eerie. The photo that accompanies this article shows National Guard troops, with rifles and armored vests, riding on an armored vehicle through trash-strewn streets lined by a rabble of squalid, listless people, one of whom appears to be yelling at them. It looks exactly like a scene from Sadr City in Baghdad. What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to drive away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Super Dome? Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them? My wife, Sherri, figured it out first, and she figured it out on a sense-of-life level. While watching the coverage last night on Fox News Channel, she told me that she was getting a familiar feeling. She studied architecture at the Illinois Institute of Chicago, which is located in the South Side of Chicago just blocks away from the Robert Taylor Homes, one of the largest high-rise public housing projects in America. "The projects," as they were known, were infamous for uncontrollable crime and irremediable squalor. (They have since, mercifully, been <http://tinyurl.com/9hu4u> demolished.) What Sherri was getting from last night's television coverage was a whiff of the sense of life of "the projects." Then the "crawl"--the informational phrases flashed at the bottom of the screen on most news channels--gave some vital statistics to confirm this sense: 75% of the residents of New Orleans had already evacuated before the hurricane, and of the 300,000 or so who remained, a large number were from the city's public housing projects. Jack Wakeland then gave me an additional, crucial fact: early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails--so they just let many of them loose. There is no doubt a significant overlap between these two populations--that is, a large number of people in the jails used to live in the housing projects, and vice versa. There were many decent, innocent people trapped in New Orleans when the deluge hit--but they were trapped alongside large numbers of people from two groups: criminals--and wards of the welfare state, people selected, over decades, for their lack of initiative and self-induced helplessness. The welfare wards were a mass of sheep--on whom the incompetent administration of New Orleans unleashed a pack of wolves. All of this is related, incidentally, to the apparent incompetence of the city government, which failed to plan for a total evacuation of the city, despite the knowledge that this might be necessary. But in a city corrupted by the welfare state, the job of city officials is to ensure the flow of handouts to welfare recipients and patronage to political supporters--not to ensure a lawful, orderly evacuation in case of emergency. No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the <http://tinyurl.com/ah5j7> Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism. What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. They don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men. But what about criminals and welfare parasites? Do they worry about saving their houses and property? They don't, because they don't own anything. Do they worry about what is going to happen to their businesses or how they are going to make a living? They never worried about those things before. Do they worry about crime and looting? But living off of stolen wealth is a way of life for them. The welfare state--and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages--is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting.

2005-09-07, 10:39 PM	#89
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	You do know that most of the news agencies are now saying the stories of armed gangs, rapes, and shooting at rescuers have been proven to be false, or at best, unsupported? I've been looking for hard, confirmed evidence of crimes like these. So far, there has been almost nothing. There has been suggestions that these stories were invented, I gather the prime suspect is FEMA and "anonymous senior officials" to justify their inaction. Has anyone seen hard news stories confirming "Road Warrior" type shit?

2005-09-08, 06:22 AM	#93
Linkster NO! Im not a female - but being a dragon, I do eat them. Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sex Delta Posts: 5,084	furry girl http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer...cane_volunteer although no one is gonna allow someone to enter the city to rescue animals without training right now - there are plenty of volunteer jobs available in the area - someone needs to care for these animals as they are brought in and for someone that hasnt been trained in the handling of possible rabid, contaminated animals, it would be suicide to try the rescue phase - but the shelters are begging for volunteers to take care of the animals __________________ Pussy Chompers Porn Links NSCash

2005-09-08, 06:37 AM	#95
furrygirl No offence Apu, but when they were handing out religions you must have been out taking a whizz Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 281	Thanks for the link, I've already emailed every animal group in the area, although HSUS and the ASPCA seem to be the only ones at the timewho are being allowed into disafter areas. No one's gotten back to me yet, and as far as I can tell from message boards, there simply are no openings for non-pros in animal or human aid. If I lived down there, I'd be happy to open my yard to a bunch of dogs, but as a non-driver, trying to get dehydrated, hungry, sick, possibly injured animals to my home in Seattle would be too much of a headache. I've actually gotten quite a biting from a (possibly rabid) stray cat before and been through rabies treatments, so it is a risk I'm truly aware of the pain of. I've known a few people who have done animal rescues in SoCal after major fires, and it's pretty much being scratched to hell, fighting with scared, injured animals who have found themselves their own safe place and don't want anyone touching them. It's not a fun vacation, and it's not about snuggling with cuddly wuddly puppies and kittens. Animals, like humans, tend to go a bit feral when left to completely fend for themselves. __________________ furrygirl.com & vegporn.com & vegsexshop.com & eroticred.com

2005-09-08, 10:03 AM	#96
CaptainJSparrow You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Louisiana Posts: 511	Linkster....what you said. You hit the nail on the head. It's too bad that you folks can only watch the national news where each station is striving hard to scream "the sky is falling" the loudest and with the most emphasis on each and every word. We have a local station that is much more unbiased. We're seeing pictures from New Orleans that are filmed by locals. We're hearing stories from folks that we know that are in New Orleans right now, who are calling us, and telling us what is actually going on. None of the authorities are shooting folks looting for food and water. There are stores in New Orleans, Walmart is one of them, that opened their doors and are giving away food and bottled water. Nah, the looters that the authorities are ordered to shoot are the ones that are trying to take advantage of the situation. The ones that are stealing electronics and other valuables. The people that don't want to leave because, for them, it is a huge oportunity to steal. My ex-wife's cousin stayed throughout the storm in Metarie, but left 2 days ago because she saw looters every night breaking into homes around her.

2005-09-08, 02:46 PM	#97
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	Well, I've been looking for news reports to confirm that there was murder, armed gangs, rampaging and rapes. So far nothing, but the day is young. I did find this first hand report by two EMS folks who were trapped in a hotel by Katrina. I think we all heard the story about how this group pooled money to hire a bus convoy to take them out of the city, but that the national guard stopped the busses and commandeered them for some unknown (to the news sources) use. Well, this same group had a hard time, spending four days trapped inside the city. http://www.emsnetwork.org/artman/pub...le_18337.shtml Here's a bit from the article: "From a woman with a battery powered radio we learned that the media was talking about us. Up in full view on the freeway, every relief and news organizations saw us on their way into the City. Officials were being asked what they were going to do about all those families living up on the freeway? The officials responded they were going to take care of us. Some of us got a sinking feeling. "Taking care of us" had an ominous tone to it. Unfortunately, our sinking feeling (along with the sinking City) was correct. Just as dusk set in, a Gretna Sheriff showed up, jumped out of his patrol vehicle, aimed his gun at our faces, screaming, "Get off the fucking freeway". A helicopter arrived and used the wind from its blades to blow away our flimsy structures. As we retreated, the sheriff loaded up his truck with our food and water. Once again, at gunpoint, we were forced off the freeway. All the law enforcement agencies appeared threatened when we congregated or congealed into groups of 20 or more. In every congregation of "victims" they saw "mob" or "riot". We felt safety in numbers. Our "we must stay together" was impossible because the agencies would force us into small atomized groups." So - the authorities apparently _STOLE_ this groups food and water to force them out of the public eye.

2005-09-08, 03:15 PM	#98
CaptainJSparrow You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Louisiana Posts: 511	On the local news, the New Orleans police chief just confirmed that his officers were shot at from the Superdome. Also, the news confirmed that locals are throwing rocks at the National Guardsmen. Gotta tell ya...the more I hear, I'm kinda embarrassed about our governor. I hear that the President gave her two options, and she told him she needed 24 hours to think about it. Apparently, she is having problems making decisions.

2005-09-08, 03:28 PM	#99
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	Well, here is a reference to a "shoot out". The only shoot out that I've seen clearly mentioned on the TV news was an incident where supposedly armed men "on a briedge" fired at rescue workers, and the police fired back. The first report was the 5 locals had been killed, that was later revised to 2 killed, two wounded, and others missing. One version of this I heard in a blog was that the men who were killed were not firing _at_ rescue workers, they were firing in the air to attract the attention of rescue workers. The police then fired on them. Not sure if this is true, but it does match some television reports I've seen, in which Nawliners were complaining that they were shot at after firing guns to attract help. I'm not sure if this is the same incident: From Reporters Sans Frontiers http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14894 Police violence against journalists in New Orleans in Katrina aftermath "A second incident involved Gordon Russell of the New Orleans-based Times-Picayune daily as he was covering a shoot-out between police and local residents near the convention centre where hurricane victims were awaiting evacuation. The police detained Russell and smashed all of his equipment on the ground. Russell was forced to flee to avoid further violence and reportedly left the city the same day."

2005-09-08, 03:41 PM	#100
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	Does the local channel you are watching have a website Jeff? As far as I'm concerned, Louisiana can shoot or imprision anybody they want to. It's not my state, and not my city. I don't live in the city. I assumed all cities have a hard core of poor and lower class people who commit most of the casual crime. I'm just interested in the facts.