Bye Bye iBill

[Jim]

You know Cleo...I overlooked the whole affiliate thing in the post Yes, you do need software.

[WildChyld]

I just noticed that the site also says this

***
iBill fees will be fixed and will be based on the same rate you are currently paying
***

Are they daft? Pay merchant account fees + 3rd party processor level fees. Who would actually agree to something like that?


Part of me is considering switching to a free site.
I'm headed into a PhD program this Fall so without a webmaster working with me I was concerned about finding the time to keep it up anyway. Such a shame that shady business practices have eliminated the majority of "homegrown" businesses.

[Jan Barnes]

Any news on Ibill? I had a bunch of recurring members via Fetish Cash, but my understanding is that payments have not been made since September 22. Does anyone have any updates?

[Ramster]

I see rebills through a few sponsors that I had too yet I haven't seen any checks. What pisses me off is they are rebilling members and showing they owe me money yet they are not paying...yet.

That's fucked up. I'd prefer they were out of biz rather than show me money and keep rebilling it when I more than likely will never see a dime of it. |pissed|

[selena]

Let me see if I can find the email I got from them after I wrote to ask if payment would ever be made.

Okay, here we go. This is c/p'd from an email dated 11/08/04

*****
Hello Selena,


Thank you for your email to iBill today.


In regards to your request:


*****
Payment status
*****

We will resume normal payout on Dec 1st as well as the 1st monies of past due payout. So on Dec 1st you will get a payment for sales processed from 11/1-11/15-04 as well as a portion of the past due payout owed to you.


Past Due Payouts:
iBill has always stated that we recognize all past due payments to our clients and our committed to meeting these obligations.
Currently First Data holds approximately $15M
We are not moving forward with any additional litigation with First Data, but are working to develop a release schedule of these funds We are also working on obtaining additional capital into iBill. While this is in process, we do not expect to see outside funds into iBill until sometime after the first of the year.
Initially-based on potential release of monies from First Data and
anticipated outside funding, we had hoped to have all past due amounts addressed by October 31.
Due to a delay in both avenues, we will be moving forward under the following program:
Starting in December, each client will be paid out over a 12 month period for past due amounts from the period of September 15 to October 31. This will include reserves. Past due amounts will be paid with 6% interest Promissory notes will be signed by Officers and Board Members of the company

Our goal is to payout much quicker than over a 12 month period
Clients will also have the ability to convert past due amounts into equity of IBD stock at a discount By early next week, an online form will be available in the iBill Merchant Info area to request the promissory note or IBD equity option CMI reporting will include statements of past due amounts for all clients to view


We appreciate your continued patience as we work through this transition. We are very confident in our ability to move forward and are excited about the opportunities ahead of us with gkard program. For those that have additional questions regarding the conference call, please email movingforward@ibill.com. Please include your master account number and account type (iBill EU, gkard, iBill Direct ect) in the email. Your questions will be used to develop a FAQ to be posted on CMI


If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know.

*****

I don't know about you, but I am disinclined to accept the stock option in lieu of cash.

[Jan Barnes]

Selena,

That is excellent news. If I am not mistaken, December 1 is today. Yooohoo!

Well, I will check my Ibill account in a few days to see if a payment has been sent.

[Ang El]

i've got their payment today |afro|

[Special "Ed"]

Originally posted by Ramster
I see rebills through a few sponsors that I had too yet I haven't seen any checks. What pisses me off is they are rebilling members and showing they owe me money yet they are not paying...yet.

That's fucked up. I'd prefer they were out of biz rather than show me money and keep rebilling it when I more than likely will never see a dime of it. |pissed|

That sucks Ramster! Damn! |raygun|

[Robato]

Originally posted by Jim
They aren't really cascading in literal terms. Back in the day, we had a true cascading system and it was really nice. We had 3 processors. We captured the prospective member's information and tried one cc processor. If they turned that person down, we tried the next. If that processor turned them down we went on to the next. If all 3 processors turned them down, we then offered alternatives.

You can't do that anymore. So, all today's cascading billing really does is rotate between processors. It is really easy to rotate a join page on your site between 2 processors. And, you don't need fancy software to do it.

could any of you point me out to some of these fancy software? I want to use more than one processor....as well as have an affiliate program rather than just having that stupid ccbill input box for affiliates

[MrsHackula]

Just thought I would say that Ibill did actually send us an ACH payment today for the period of Nov 1st - 15th.

They also have a total of what is owed us from September & October in our merchant info area, along with a choice as to whether we want it paid back a little at a time with 6% interest, or as equity at a 50% discount, or a combination of both. We passed on the equity.

[BumpUglyz]

Its Dec 8th and still no payment from Ibill and it also says Sept 22 under statement in my admin area

[Ramster]

Just to clarify...

Sponsors who use(d) ibill as their processor are getting paid right?

Affiliates (like me) who promoted these programs still are not right?

Selena, you are an affiliate I assume and are waiting for affiliate payouts?

[Greenguy]

Ramster - I think they said they were gonna start paying this week - and if I remember correctly, I get their checks on Wed or Thur, so I'll post by tomorrow night either way

[Carly]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Ramster - I think they said they were gonna start paying this week - and if I remember correctly, I get their checks on Wed or Thur, so I'll post by tomorrow night either way

Mine didn't come today. I won't hold my breath on ever seeing a check from them again, so if it happens I will buy myself something nice.

[Greenguy]

I didn't get anything from iBill - but I didn't get any CCBill checks either & they usually arrive on the same day (or did back on the day - LOL)

Mail will be late for the next 3 weeks any - tis the season

[Greenguy]

Rut Roh - http://xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=6489

[Robato]

“The American Stock Exchange objected to the closing of the iBill transaction and cited, among other factors, concerns that iBill may be inadvertently engaging in transactions with web merchants that offer pornographic materials on the Internet in violation of federal and state laws,”

HMMmmmmmmm........

inadvertently engaging in transactions with web merchants that offer pornographic materials.





by the way, just curious....does ibill do any transactions that ARENT smut?

[WildChyld]

Not that this should be surprising but the Ibill situation is even worse now.

I recently found out that their transactions are also screwed up. They've been charging people but not adding them to the database so essentially I have a weeks worth of pissed off members.
When I called, despite it being during business hours, I got the "we're closed message". Then when I finally got some woman named Viola, she claimed that I was lying and it didn't happen and told me that if I was going to accuse them of not answer the phone that she was going to hang up on me.

So no payouts for past dates, no pay out for this week, no more visa unless you use their fucked up new system and no refund on the $350 fee I had to pay to them.

If anyone decides to sue Ibill please send me an email.
That money was paying for my college tuition. ARGH!

[Cleo]

Originally posted by Robato
does ibill do any transactions that ARENT smut?

I know that they have a hard goods store front with a shopping cart that anyone with no knowledge of html can setup using a browser. I've had mainstream clients that were using it, don't know if they are still using iBill or not.

[cd34]

IBill's entry into the business was due to a contract that they held with 3M's consumer division. 3M decided it was cheaper to pay 10% to a third party processor than it was for them to maintain their own systems.

That is what Intercept wanted, then spooled off the adult side, which was then spooled off again.

IBill will survive -- the current investors spent far too much to just dump it (I don't think they did a smart thing because they used far too much personal money for an emotional purchase)

Its going to be a bumpy road, that's for sure, but they will pull through. I am thinking they will turn into a very large transaction processor rather than maintaining IPSP status. Their stance on Visa sort of reinforces that. I have a few clients that IBill keeps claiming they will support IPSP, but, its been a while and I see no indication that they ever will.

There are benefits to the non-IPSP route, but, if you're going to go that way, talk with Mitch or Karen @ Netbilling.

[Black Cat]

Originally posted by Cleo
I guess they can sell prepaid porn cards right next to the prepaid phone cards now.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news/index...02255384&EDATE

you're right!! that' s what i observe

[Jan Barnes]

According to my ibill main menu screen, "Another update regarding the RevShare payout will be posted by Tuesday December 21, 2004".

However, they are saying the payment is still on track, so that gives us another date to look forward to. December 21, the clock is ticking.

[WildChyld]

What I dont understand is why an American company is able to get away with this. They've broken their contracts with thousands of people, why isn't anyone suing them yet?

I can understand with the foreign companies, they have an easier time running off with money but Ibill is in Florida for jeezums sake.

[RawAlex]

It's because at this point, sueing them might push them directly into bankrupcy, and then you can be lucky to get 10 cents on the dollar in the end.

Push someone standing on the edge of a cliff only assures that they will hit the bottom.

Alex

[cd34]

Some strange history:

IBill was located in Ft. Lauderdale for a while and I believe shared part of a data center with FirstData (which is the company that has pretty much caused most of the turmoil in the transition).

Way back with web900, there was only one company that would do adult pay-per-call that was large enough and reliable enough to process and make payments to ibill. That company also happened to sell bandwidth and had enough power to say to iBill, use our bandwidth, or you get no 900# processing. I believe it was in 2002 after a total meltdown of one backbone, and the subsequent meltdown of that company's backbone, iBill was able to put pressure on and get connectivity from another company. They have also since moved their data center to West Palm Beach and still buy the majority of their bandwidth from their web900 supplier.

Now, you have the dispute with FirstData, the shuffle to get a new merchant account, the lack of ability to run as an IPSP (this has greater consequences), and the loss of a great many IPSP clients that won't pay to get their own account and the rapid erosion of their client base through non-communication. I have helped many, many clients move from iBill in the last 60 days.

So, lets think about what has happened. They cannot process Visa, the companies that are generating sales are leaving, which gives you the tiny companies that haven't left yet which are not generating enough sales to dilute any chargebacks that are coming in. This turns the scrubbing up, hence, fewer sales get through, the ratio continues to climb. There are only a few ways to reduce a chargeback ratio that I know of, and taking fewer transactions isn't one of them.

So, enter gkard -- a prepaid card that allows people to pay iBill and then they can use that money elsewhere. Stored value cards have been around forever. ePassporte is very similar, just targeted to a different market. Now, years ago with stored value telephone cards, the Chinese government/telco decided to make really pretty cards. People liked these cards and decided to keep them. A little clause in the government required any money on a stored value card to be held in escrow until the time was used before the money could get released to the phone company. What this did was protect the purchaser of that card from the telco going bankrupt and not honoring the card. gKard is non-chargebackable (supposedly), but then the online casinos claim the same thing. Stored value cards hold huge benefits for companies that run them. A stored value card is a 'float' account -- tons of cash sits there that will get paid out, but, at a unknown time. All the while, your money sits there (usually with no interest) and the company that has it must only meet any daily obligations. Consider if 50000 people all leave $30 on their card while searching for a paysite to join. That is $1.5 million that sits in their account until they have to do a payout. Now you see why epassporte is lax about adding a way to withdraw money to a bank account.

If I had to guess, there's a 5 letter word that comes to mind that describes iBill's behavior. The question is, can they break the cycle.

Yes, they are a US company, but, as a US based company, they hold the same values that almost any company has -- and that is self-preservation and distribution of profits. You can rest assured, as every other large company: Enron, Worldcom, NYSE, that the board members and major stockholders are being paid in a timely manner.

Are their actions enough to have a lawsuit filed? Sure. Is it worth your money to do so? You're sort of at the mercy of the information (or lack thereof) that iBill will supply the courts. They will blame the payout delay on anything except their actions, and they'll draw things out until it is either more expensive to have sued, or, hey, sorry, we have no money left. Their lawyers will be better than your lawyers -- that is almost a fact. You can't sue over your lost Visa income since the processing was shut down. In most cases, that comprises ~65% of the signup/rebill revenue. So, you sue to recover the possible mastercard revenue that you haven't gotten + the $350 you paid. Your attorney will probably charge you $350 to file that motion.

What did DMR do before they shut down? promised payouts that kept moving further and further back. ABM? 6 months of taking transactions without paying. Epoch? I remember a time when they dumped the small guys and set up a $50k deposit/no reserve account. Not sure what they considered that $50k if it wasn't a reserve. Digiblaze? He took his money and ran (and his top guy, also ex-dmr is now an ibill guy). Websitebilling? moved to a bearer-share island and shut down without warning. Globill? moved to the same bearer-share island and shut down.

However. IBill still has a considerable Transaction Processing business for people that have merchant accounts. They have a somewhat substantial non-adult client base and if they were to get rid of the liabilities of the worst offenders in the adult side, could effectively do IPSP again. The smart move is to do almost what Verotel did. You can IPSP until you hit $1k/week. Then, they keep the better quality transactions in their pool and move the bigger guys to TP which again helps. And so far, iBill has only been ~60 days behind, and have started communicating. When a company stops communicating, that's a danger sign.

There are chinks in the armor of every processing company out there. You can read a lot into their actions and inactions.

Personally, I feel iBill will come through it, but, they are losing a considerable benefit from the lack of IPSP processing (and its not just the money)

iBill has made some really dumb mistakes, but, its easy to see that in hindsight. The whole problem really stemmed from an assumption. My recommendation, which certainly isn't in iBill's best interest, is to move to another processor. CCBill/vscrub and Paycom/Epoch/epassporte are two IPSP processors that seem to still be standing fairly strong. Netbilling would be the choice if you wanted to get your own merchant account.

I have also had clients that have used other processors like ikobo and a few others, but, its just a matter of time before those reins get tightened up on the ones that are skirting the issues.

I know this is just a long rant that barely skirts the last question. In short, I don't believe that suing iBill will result in enough gains for it to be worthwhile. Unless you can easily prove willful negligence on iBill's part -- and as an independent observer, I don't believe you can easily find that -- then the case will do nothing but recover costs and income earned.

Move on. If iBill gets caught up, use them as a secondary or backup if you want.

You could file in small claims court in Deerfield Beach, FL if the amount is <$5000 (I think that is the limit)

Not really what you wanted to hear, but, I'll bet that any efforts to recover the money will be met with brick walls every step of the way.