"Political Influence of Adult Sites" and "Free Speech Coalition" pressure. - Page 2

furrygirl · 2006-02-02, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirMoby

Please, this can still be a good thread. There is no reason to be discussing feminists here unless the goal is to kill another productive thread.

If you guys are going to grudgingly accept and/or welcome the idea of women working on an "in defense of porn" project, you better get used to hearing our opinions on why we defend porn, otherwise this thread might as well be re-titled "Speaking out on behalf of the entire adult industry- for male webmasters only!" Males and webmasters are just one part of the industry, but I realize that any board/group would be eager to select leaders from its own pool. (Maybe if you asked 100 people who do camerawork and lighting on sets, they'd agree that a handful of them were the best ones to represent the entire industry, too.)

This is the third time I've said this: ONE OF THE MAIN ARGUMENTS AGAINST PORN IS THAT IT HURTS WOMEN. Frankly, you're not going to be able to counter that as a group of male TGP webmasters who have no experience in front of the camera saying, "Uh, no it doesn't. We don't think so. Uh, it's their choice."

Surfn · 2006-02-02, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by furrygirl

...Frankly, you're not going to be able to counter that as a group of male TGP webmasters who have no experience in front of the camera saying, "Uh, no it doesn't. We don't think so. Uh, it's their choice."

If that's what you truly think you have a lot to learn.

furrygirl · 2006-02-02, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surfn

If that's what you truly think you have a lot to learn.

So... you think that a gallery submitter is the most qualified person to speak to the world about what it's like to be an adult performer? Excuse me, but that makes as much sense as having an anti-porn crusader say that they're speaking on behalf of *me* and my human rights.

I realize that this is a free site/TGP board, but people here tend to forget that they are not the only people in the adult industry. "Adult" consists of all sorts of people working on all levels, and for any micro-group of the industry to say that they're the best ones to speak for everyone, they're just making themselves look silly and inexperienced.

I've read more anti-porn writings than any 100 people here, and I guarantee that a statement by a bunch of webmaster dudes about how women and performers probably feel about their work would be dismissed by every single anti-porner out there, and would do further damage by showing that even "adult industry" can't be bothered to get input from their "content".

Surfn · 2006-02-02, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by furrygirl

So... you think that a gallery submitter is the most qualified person to speak to the world about what it's like to be an adult performer? Excuse me, but that makes as much sense as having an anti-porn crusader say that they're speaking on behalf of *me* and my human rights.

I realize that this is a free site/TGP board, but people here tend to forget that they are not the only people in the adult industry. "Adult" consists of all sorts of people working on all levels, and for any micro-group of the industry to say that they're the best ones to speak for everyone, they're just making themselves look silly and inexperienced.

I've read more anti-porn writings than any 100 people here, and I guarantee that a statement by a bunch of webmaster dudes about how women and performers probably feel about their work would be dismissed by every single anti-porner out there, and would do further damage by showing that even "adult industry" can't be bothered to get input from their "content".

Your youth and inexperience are shining through. Some of us do a hell of lot more than just TGP's. If you actually took the time to do some research you could have found articles of mine dating from the present back to the middle 90's on various aspects of this industry from my first hand experiences.

I understand your position and respect it. You obviously have no respect for those who blazed the trail for you to do what you do. If you did you would more likely than not have a different perspective. You are born of a generation that wants everything now. Some of us understand the concept of changing from within and building a solid foundation for our actions.

If you really want to make a difference then do it. Rhetoric is not going to get the job done.

walrus · 2006-02-02, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirMoby

Please, this can still be a good thread. There is no reason to be discussing feminists here unless the goal is to kill another productive thread.

Thought this needed to be repeated and I'm still biting my tongue and its starting to fucking hurt!

Surfn · 2006-02-02, 08:21 PM

My final word on this subject. The input from all interested parties should be weighed before a final decision. If you get a consensus by throwing out the far left and the far right you have something with broad appeal.

Halfdeck · 2006-02-02, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

1. For instance, here's an idea. We know FSC will bitch about the cost of revamping their website. So we have a fund&skills drive here at GG&J, pull together the few thou and the workers it will take to give them a CC processor and a blog.

Sounds good to me Bill.

Quote:

What about an informal get together at Phonix Forum, where we can listen to you and maybe, maybe come to some sort of consensus about these issues?

Hi Tom, thanks for droppiong by.

If you're referring to the get-together in Arizona ... it would be far easier if we could set up a one-hour live chat session where any webmaster can participate without hopping on a plane.

Toni KatVixen · 2006-02-02, 09:12 PM

You can NOT discuss porn with out the feminist view. You are using women to make your money but IT is our pussies, our tits & our ass out there.....it sure isn't yours.

The 2 biggest arguments used against us in porn are:
1) protect the children
2) it DEGRADES WOMEN

The only way to fight against those arguments is to know what all sides are saying INCLUDING the feminist side, which will team up with the bible-thumpers.

You as a male, DO NOT represent how we women are viewed or treated since we are the ones in front of the camera getting fucked. This industry is so sexist that you just write us women off as if we have nothing to say. Hell, I see it at the conventions all the time, if a girl is in front of the camera she is not taken seriously as a business partner, just piece of meat.

Prime example, Furry Girl brings up a valid point and you write it off as her youth and patronize her?!? If it was coming from a male, you would not have being so dismissive.

Toby · 2006-02-02, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMax

We'd need someone from the online community to actually run for the FSC board in the next election.

I agree, but there are some demands in terms of travel and personal expense that eliminate many who might be qualified and willing.

Bill · 2006-02-02, 10:41 PM

Well, as far as I'm concerned, the idea of trying to get female spokepersons and representatives is so inherently and obviously smart that it really doesn't need to be defended.

The questions remaining on that are tactical - who to cultivate, how to get them practice at public performance, how to pay them, etc..

And, as I said before, I don't think we are at that stage yet. When we have some women who are willing to take on the responsibility, then we can analyze their style of presentation and talk about wether it's too feminist or not feminist enough.

However, right now we are in a much earlier stage of the political game. The task ahead of us is to get enough organization and energy to be able to worry about things like paying a spokesperson.

Which brings me back to brainstorming. The idea is to throw in ideas for what we want the FSC to do. If you had the power to get the FSC to do anything you wanted, lets say within, oh, $5,000 to $50,000 worth of something, what would that be?

Toby · 2006-02-02, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KatVixen

You can NOT discuss porn with out the feminist view. You are using women to make your money but IT is our pussies, our tits & our ass out there.....it sure isn't yours.

There's is absolutely no question about that, and from what I read at the start of this discussion I think many also believe it's better to have a notable adult industry woman as the main spokesperson. Where I see a problem is in the labeling of those views as "feminist" rather than simply including them as part of the overall position statement.

Ms Naughty · 2006-02-02, 10:56 PM

I probably shouldn’t post in this thread because I’m not a member of the FSC and I’m a foreigner (eeek!). But what happens in US politics does affect my business so I’m an interested party and I’m glad that this thread is encouraging action.

We’re currently discussing who should be the official representative of the online world. A few questions and thoughts on this:

Is this person there to bring the FSC up to speed on what the online world wants or are they there to represent us to “the enemy” (govt, media et. al)?

If it’s the former, it doesn’t necessarily have to be one person. Perhaps a committee could be formed for the job.

Whoever does end up as “the representative/s” needs to be someone who can devote a lot of time and effort to the job. They need to be committed to the process. They will also need to deal with a public profile. Most of us are busy making money and leading our own anonymous lives. While many of the public figures suggested sound great, perhaps they will be too busy or not interested in becoming involved in “politics”. So I guess that’s why people turned to Connor Young because he’s stepped up to the plate and is willing to put in the time and effort. Perhaps if it was a paying job (is it?) more people would be willing to put their hand up.

Public figures can be very useful. Those mentioned could perhaps be asked to fulfill an “associate” kind of role. Maybe we can get them to write statements that can be posted with our “official statement”, or we can ask them to write or speak about what we’re doing.

As has been shown in this thread, the “online community” is made up of many different elements – paysite owners, models, photographers, linklist owners etc. Both the independent community and big business needs to be represented. These people will all have their own issues. Our representative/s needs to be made aware of these issues. I guess a message board will be useful for that. But people need to think about and communicate exactly what those issues are.

To paraphrase The Life of Brian, what are our demands? Well, what is it we want to tell the government?
Off the top of my head:
We want:
· To be able to continue conducting our legitimate business without harassment or censorship from the government
· To exercise our right to free speech
In return our responsibilities should be:
· To assist in preventing children from viewing unacceptable material
· To pay taxes
· To engage in ethical business practices e.g. fair treatment of employees etc
And we also want to tell the government that:
· We, as responsible webmasters, are making an effort and doing the right thing: not spamming, not engaged in CP, not scamming, not exploiting, making sure models are over 18 etc etc
· The American people want their porn (and show statistics to prove how many average, ordinary, churchgoing people view it).

It’s a start.

We’ve talked about labeling. From what’s been already discussed, the action involved in getting this up and running is:
1. Decide whether we want to stick with ICRA or create a new label, either a universal simple label or a slightly more detailed one.
2. Decide on the syntax of the label
3. Lobby the browsers and search engines to recognize it
4. Encourage webmasters to use it, perhaps through new linklist rules
5. Publicize our efforts (very important)

The question is, how do we decide on those first two things? Who decides? And when? How do we move beyond arguing about it and reach a consensus?

OK, this was a rambling attempt from me to try and sum up what’s happening so far. Not sure if it’s helpful or not.

One request to the FSC from me. When you finally get your online payment system happening, would you consider offering an “associate membership” for non US citizens? Or perhaps accept one-off donations?

Ms Naughty · 2006-02-02, 11:05 PM

Quote:

If you had the power to get the FSC to do anything you wanted, lets say within, oh, $5,000 to $50,000 worth of something, what would that be?

Fund a general advertising campaign telling parents how to use filtering software - and make sure they knew it was the adult industry behind the ads.

And on top of that, you'd probably need to launch a big PR campaign making sure the media know about the advertising and report on it. It's hard to put an anti-porn spin on the idea of "Adult Industry promotes web filtering", although I'm sure they'll give it a red hot go.

Ooh, and lobby Visa to drop their "high risk" $750 extortion fee

Edit again: And maybe part of the ad campaign could be a website that explains filtering, explains what the industry is doing to help, links to filtering software... something the Mums and Dads can go to for information... Just another idea.

MrYum · 2006-02-03, 12:01 AM

Really awesome to see this discussion taking place. Seems as though perhaps the online adult community may finally be heading toward a cohesive voice...which would be a truly great thing for us all. It's high time the public realize we're not the monsters portrayed in mainstream media or by religious zealot politicians.

Have to add...Wow, Grandma...those are some GREAT ideas!

RawAlex · 2006-02-03, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill

Well, I tend to believe that the FSC is getting most of it's money from the video and bookstore crowd.

So, it doesn't surprise me that they would bend over backwards to please the 'whale' donors.

I tend to believe that the online sector is making less money overall than it would like to think. And, that the sponsors don't contribute much, leaving the mom and pop webmaster types to pony up the dues and the contributions.

What we onliners have to offer is speed, numbers, and a certain loud-mouthedness. I think we are going to have to be agressive with the FSC to get what we want - representation.

Bill, right now the online industry (especially the mom and pop part of the buisness) is the tip of the arrow. The video people are coming in behind US, filling out the business (note the arrival of Girls Gone Wild affiliate program and other video studios expanding to PPV and other online business strategies). Without out us all out ther pushing, They wouldn't even know where to start.

I think if a membership count was actually released, I think you would see that the online people are a bigger part of the FSC than even they would like to admit.

Alex

furrygirl · 2006-02-03, 03:48 AM

Thanks, Toni, for stepping in on this discussion, and I'm sorry I forgot to CC you on an email I sent to a few gals about this. (Looks like you found this thread anyhow!)

One of my favorite women in the business whom I emailed didn't even want to bother posting a reply in this thread. It's a shame that there are a number of women I know of who tend to stay out of debates like this because they don't have the energy to scream to be heard over all the men who don't want to listen to them anyhow. That's not good for fostering online community, it's losing out on valuable ideas by people who have decided it's not worth bothering with even *trying* to share them. (Not that I blame anyone for not using up their time fighting with people on ye olde internet.)

For right now, I'm not going to bother with this get into heated discussion on this any more, because I don't think the majority (or vocal minority) here actually gives a toss about hearing what females and performers have to say, although they all agree that it sure would be great to have a chick as a spokesperson to make them look good.

It's obvious that I am coming from a completely different world than most of the people posting here. I genuinely love what I'm creating, I take tremendous pride in the work I do, I believe I produce porn that helps to break down negative body images and sexual stigmas to make more people feel sexy within themselves. Porn is one part of my deep commitment to creating better things in this world on a number of levels, in my own small ways. I'll continue to educate people about how wonderful and beneficial and fun *some* of the adult industry is, shatter stereotypes about who a "smut peddler" is, and make ground-breaking porn that myself and my models are extremely happy with. (And you better believe that it's far more ground-breaking and "extreme" to assert that big/hairy/menstruating women are sexy, than to choke women purple and piss on them.)

I'll just throw out one last thing. I've been repeated insulted over and over on this board about how I better recognize that some of you have been in this business since the 90s, so I need to shut up and respect my elders. I can only laugh at the irony of that statement. The sex industry was not invented in 1995 by a bunch of dudes on their computers. I have never been inspired by a "free site", but I have been moved by the words and creations of performers and producers like Nina Hartley and Annie Sprinkle, and I have a feeling they've been around a lot longer than anyone's TGP. In fact, I got interested in this business after reading about the strong, intelligent women who were prostitutes in the old west who braved all manner of harsh conditions so they could be independent and call their own shots.

I have a feeling that passionate women will continue to inspire me on a day to day basis, and I'll continue to be touched every time someone tells me that one of my sites helped motivate them to create their own wonderful porn, or when a model tells me how truly proud they are to be on one of my little sites. It's not as exciting or profitable as running a massive sponsor program selling the latest gimmick and hoping customers forget to cancel their trials, but I'm content in knowing that I'm doing good things to forward positive human sexuality via pornography every single day. THAT, by itself, is my activism, and it needn't involve trying to force and fight a bunch of men into considering that maybe female models have something to say about what it's like to be a female model.

Beaver Bob · 2006-02-03, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by furrygirl

The sex industry was not invented in 1995 by a bunch of dudes on their computers. I have never been inspired by a "free site", but I have been moved by the words and creations of performers and producers like Nina Hartley and Annie Sprinkle, and I have a feeling they've been around a lot longer than anyone's TGP.

True, but don't assume that just because everyone here is a webmaster that they aren't in any way involved in producing content as well. We shoot everything ourselves for all of our pay sites..

Beaver Bob · 2006-02-03, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

Fund a general advertising campaign telling parents how to use filtering software - and make sure they knew it was the adult industry behind the ads.

And on top of that, you'd probably need to launch a big PR campaign making sure the media know about the advertising and report on it. It's hard to put an anti-porn spin on the idea of "Adult Industry promotes web filtering", although I'm sure they'll give it a red hot go.

Ooh, and lobby Visa to drop their "high risk" $750 extortion fee

Edit again: And maybe part of the ad campaign could be a website that explains filtering, explains what the industry is doing to help, links to filtering software... something the Mums and Dads can go to for information... Just another idea.

you make some great points! especially like your idea about dropping the Visa fee

this is a really cool thread.

Halfdeck · 2006-02-03, 07:02 AM

Furrygirl, let's not dwell on a divisive issue that puts up a fense between female performers and male webmasters or between paysite owners and free site builders. This is a time to band together and churn up ideas that will help everyone involved.

SirMoby · 2006-02-03, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by furrygirl

If you guys are going to grudgingly accept and/or welcome the idea of women working on an "in defense of porn" project, you better get used to hearing our opinions on why we defend porn, otherwise this thread might as well be re-titled "Speaking out on behalf of the entire adult industry- for male webmasters only!" Males and webmasters are just one part of the industry, but I realize that any board/group would be eager to select leaders from its own pool. (Maybe if you asked 100 people who do camerawork and lighting on sets, they'd agree that a handful of them were the best ones to represent the entire industry, too.)

This is the third time I've said this: ONE OF THE MAIN ARGUMENTS AGAINST PORN IS THAT IT HURTS WOMEN. Frankly, you're not going to be able to counter that as a group of male TGP webmasters who have no experience in front of the camera saying, "Uh, no it doesn't. We don't think so. Uh, it's their choice."

Has anyone disagreed with you other then Surfin? Did anyone dismiss the idea of having a female spokes person? I posted that it was worthless to discuss "feminists" in this thread and I still don't see why it's fruitful.

This thread should be a list of constructive bullet points instead it's just another bash the FSC and argue about side issues while bypassing the actual issue at hand. The board has been chosen and Conner Young appears to be the only one with any on-line experience.

If we can't post consice recommendations without getting caught up in pissing matches then we're not going to be successful in working together. I think somewhere in your pages of posts filled with passion and angst that you might have a few good bullet points.

Care to post some bullet points so that we can clearly see your ideas? Is there really any need to get into more pissing matches?

RawAlex · 2006-02-03, 09:51 AM

Furrygirl, you really are off on a charge, aren't you?

Do you think that female performers have it over male performers? Do you think that tranny and gey performers have less rights than female performers? Do you think that performers per se are the only ones with a vote at the table? Do all the other people, like camera operators, still photographers, editors, producers, lighting guys, retouchers, hosting companies, DVD distributors, management types, and retail store owners don't also have some minor, tiny, insignificant little role to play in all of this?

This isn't a feminist issue, that is what the christian-conservative nutjobs would want people to think. If you fight them on that issue, then you are only proving their point for them. For every Furrygirl or Kat Vixen, they will roll out 10 girls that will claim to have be somehow abused by the system. It isn't a strong suit for the industry, and you never should fight a battle based on your enemy's strength. It is pointless.

Nobody is saying "shut up and respect your elders", but they are saying "respect your elders". If you fail to accept and understand the road that got us to this point, you will have no basis on which to change things. Your "get rid of the $750 visa fee" thing sounds nice in a vacuum, but in reality it has in my opinion done the industry a world of good, because it has kept many a scammer from coming in and getting a Visa account and fucking people over. Don't even try to say "it limits free speech", because the entry cost to put porn on the net for money is still one of the lowest entry costs for any normal business I can think of. Visa fee plus a camera, a PC, a net connection, a host, a domain... bang. You can have a personal membership website up for less than a couple of thousand dollars FROM SCRATCH.

If you don't understand how we ended up with a $750 visa fee, you can't begin to fight against it. When you understand that there is a good chance that the choices are "Visa fee or Visa stops processing adult", most people would say "that is a small price to pay to be legit".

As SirMoby said (in other words) strip down your posts and extract the ideas and bullet point them. Your turning every thread into some sort of woman power rally cry is getting old already. You are amoungst mostly like minded people here, we don't degrade women or look down on them or their contribution to the business. better to save the strident stuff for your debate on Foxnews facing Pat Buchanan.

Alex

Tom Hymes · 2006-02-03, 01:17 PM

* RawAlex is probably right about there being more adult webmaster members of FSC than any other group. That sounds like an opportunity to me.

* RawAlex is wrong, imho, that Tim Valenti of NakedSword.com, the one person appointed to the FSC Board, is a "video guy." I certainly don't think Tim would characterize himself that way, but whatever. I did not have anything to do with that, the Board made the decision. If one of you had run and gathered even a little bit of support, you would have been on the Board. Tim was appointed because not enough people ran!

* RawAlex is invited to run for the Board next time. He would be a great asset. If he's interested, he should contact me soon. (That's not meant to exclude others. See below.)

* The fact is, we are actively working on developing policies that speak to the most difficult issues we face, which of course are Internet issues. Wanna help?

* I am putting together an outline for a specific proposal regarding metatags right now. When it is done, I will be soliciting feedback from people who know far more about coding than I, and will certainly ask people on this board for help. I should have the outline finished in a week or so. I am on board for developing a tag that is "short, simple and clean"

* Anyone who is interested in having a voice in the policies developed by the Free Speech Coalition is encouraged to contact me. We are actively soliciting people to run for the Board next year. My contact info is below.

* Our federal lobbyists are working overtime in DC. They are fucking connected. You have no idea the feedback we are getting. They say there are open minds on the Hill. What you see on TV is mostly agitprop theater. The real work happens behind the scenes. We are there. Help us develop the right positions and policies so that when our lobbyists go into a Senator's office, your ideas come out through their mouths.

* Email or call me. If you are interested in helping us, I will ask you for a phone number. If you don't give it to me, if I can't contact you other than through email, if you remain an anonymous person, your ideas will get through, but obviously we will have hit a brick wall as far as more hands on participation.

Thanks!

Tom
tom@freespeechcoalition.com
818.304.1712 cell

RawAlex · 2006-02-03, 02:48 PM

Tom, I appreciate the offer, thank you. I stand corrected on Naked Sword, as I remembered it not as a website but as a video brand. Apologies to anyone affected as a result of my confusion.

I am located in Canada. Is FSC accepting board members from outside of the US, or intending perhaps to have regional groups outside of the US?

Thanks

Alex

Bill · 2006-02-03, 03:02 PM

Ha ha ha Tom! Extra points to you for the excellent use of bullet points! ;-}

And I also think Alex would make a good board member - we're going to have to twist his arm on this when the next round of elections come along. He's our 'professional skeptic', but his research tends to be very strong.

I'm going to quickly close with two points:

1. The issue with the FSC website is very important to us. Please discuss it with board members, your technical staff and webmaster, your information officer, or whomever else is appropriate. Find out what you need at your end to give the website the ability to take credit cards and to add some kind of interactivity like a blog or message board.

2. Think about what _you_ and the FSC need from your membership, and let us know. This might make an excellent page or pages to add to the website - a "What can you do to help?" page. (You have a 'volunteer' link on the website, for example, but it just leads to a blank email.) What can webmasters, from the mom-and-pops to the big traffic whales, do to help?

Bill · 2006-02-03, 03:39 PM

I'm trying to come up with a list of the suggestions made so far, I'm just going to try to number them in order received:

1. To start, I want to make one suggestion to you that I think everyone here would agree with. We'd like to see improvements to the website, to have the website modernized a bit. An online system for accepting memberships and contributions would probably be the most important thing, and something that allows quicker two way communications, like a blog.

2. We know FSC will bitch about the cost of revamping their website. So we have a fund&skills drive here at GG&J, pull together the few thou and the workers it will take to give them a CC processor and a blog. In exchange the FSC puts a banner to GG&J on their website, making GG&J the "official" cool webmaster board.

3. Set up a one-hour live chat session with the FSC where any webmaster can participate without hopping on a plane.

4. When you finally get your online payment system happening, would you consider offering an “associate membership” for non US citizens? Or perhaps accept one-off donations?

5. Fund a general advertising campaign telling parents how to use filtering software - and make sure they knew it was the adult industry behind the ads. And on top of that, you'd probably need to launch a big PR campaign making sure the media know about the advertising and report on it. It's hard to put an anti-porn spin on the idea of "Adult Industry promotes web filtering", although I'm sure they'll give it a red hot go.

6. lobby Visa to drop their "high risk" $750 extortion fee.

7. (paraphraseing what I think Alex is really saying) Make the FSC more transparent by discussing membership numbers, budget, and expenses.

And I'll add #8:

8. Hire an "online information officer" whose job would be to use boardtracker to patrol the boards (and maybe blogs), answer questions about the FSC and make reports about FSC activities, make daily or weekly entries in the newly created FSC blog, and in other ways act as a liason between the onliners and the FSC board.

So, that's 8 suggestions to start out with - we need about a dozen more to make this an official brainstorm.

Do me a favor please, and if you make a suggestion, bullet point it or otherwise emphasize it so it's easy to find and copy.

And don't stop making suggestions - we need a dozen more! What do you want the FSC to do for us, if we could get them to spend up to $50K on your project?

2006-02-02, 08:21 PM	#31
Surfn If you don’t take a chance the Angels won’t dance Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Earth on occasion Posts: 8,812	My final word on this subject. The input from all interested parties should be weighed before a final decision. If you get a consensus by throwing out the far left and the far right you have something with broad appeal. __________________ Surfn's Links Are you a partner?

2006-02-02, 09:12 PM	#33
Toni KatVixen Nobody gets into heaven without a glowstick Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 420	You can NOT discuss porn with out the feminist view. You are using women to make your money but IT is our pussies, our tits & our ass out there.....it sure isn't yours. The 2 biggest arguments used against us in porn are: 1) protect the children 2) it DEGRADES WOMEN The only way to fight against those arguments is to know what all sides are saying INCLUDING the feminist side, which will team up with the bible-thumpers. You as a male, DO NOT represent how we women are viewed or treated since we are the ones in front of the camera getting fucked. This industry is so sexist that you just write us women off as if we have nothing to say. Hell, I see it at the conventions all the time, if a girl is in front of the camera she is not taken seriously as a business partner, just piece of meat. Prime example, Furry Girl brings up a valid point and you write it off as her youth and patronize her?!? If it was coming from a male, you would not have being so dismissive. __________________ Peace toni@katvixen.com

2006-02-02, 10:56 PM	#37
Ms Naughty old enough to be Grandma Scrotum Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 1,408	I probably shouldn’t post in this thread because I’m not a member of the FSC and I’m a foreigner (eeek!). But what happens in US politics does affect my business so I’m an interested party and I’m glad that this thread is encouraging action. We’re currently discussing who should be the official representative of the online world. A few questions and thoughts on this: Is this person there to bring the FSC up to speed on what the online world wants or are they there to represent us to “the enemy” (govt, media et. al)? If it’s the former, it doesn’t necessarily have to be one person. Perhaps a committee could be formed for the job. Whoever does end up as “the representative/s” needs to be someone who can devote a lot of time and effort to the job. They need to be committed to the process. They will also need to deal with a public profile. Most of us are busy making money and leading our own anonymous lives. While many of the public figures suggested sound great, perhaps they will be too busy or not interested in becoming involved in “politics”. So I guess that’s why people turned to Connor Young because he’s stepped up to the plate and is willing to put in the time and effort. Perhaps if it was a paying job (is it?) more people would be willing to put their hand up. Public figures can be very useful. Those mentioned could perhaps be asked to fulfill an “associate” kind of role. Maybe we can get them to write statements that can be posted with our “official statement”, or we can ask them to write or speak about what we’re doing. As has been shown in this thread, the “online community” is made up of many different elements – paysite owners, models, photographers, linklist owners etc. Both the independent community and big business needs to be represented. These people will all have their own issues. Our representative/s needs to be made aware of these issues. I guess a message board will be useful for that. But people need to think about and communicate exactly what those issues are. To paraphrase The Life of Brian, what are our demands? Well, what is it we want to tell the government? Off the top of my head: We want: · To be able to continue conducting our legitimate business without harassment or censorship from the government · To exercise our right to free speech In return our responsibilities should be: · To assist in preventing children from viewing unacceptable material · To pay taxes · To engage in ethical business practices e.g. fair treatment of employees etc And we also want to tell the government that: · We, as responsible webmasters, are making an effort and doing the right thing: not spamming, not engaged in CP, not scamming, not exploiting, making sure models are over 18 etc etc · The American people want their porn (and show statistics to prove how many average, ordinary, churchgoing people view it). It’s a start. We’ve talked about labeling. From what’s been already discussed, the action involved in getting this up and running is: 1. Decide whether we want to stick with ICRA or create a new label, either a universal simple label or a slightly more detailed one. 2. Decide on the syntax of the label 3. Lobby the browsers and search engines to recognize it 4. Encourage webmasters to use it, perhaps through new linklist rules 5. Publicize our efforts (very important) The question is, how do we decide on those first two things? Who decides? And when? How do we move beyond arguing about it and reach a consensus? OK, this was a rambling attempt from me to try and sum up what’s happening so far. Not sure if it’s helpful or not. One request to the FSC from me. When you finally get your online payment system happening, would you consider offering an “associate membership” for non US citizens? Or perhaps accept one-off donations? __________________ Promote Bright Desire

2006-02-03, 12:01 AM	#39
MrYum Arghhhh...submit yer sites ya ruddy swabs! Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sunny Florida! Posts: 5,108	Really awesome to see this discussion taking place. Seems as though perhaps the online adult community may finally be heading toward a cohesive voice...which would be a truly great thing for us all. It's high time the public realize we're not the monsters portrayed in mainstream media or by religious zealot politicians. Have to add...Wow, Grandma...those are some GREAT ideas! __________________ Porno Flixxx Submissions SOTI Site Submissions Free Porn Resource Submissions

2006-02-03, 03:48 AM	#41
furrygirl No offence Apu, but when they were handing out religions you must have been out taking a whizz Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 281	Thanks, Toni, for stepping in on this discussion, and I'm sorry I forgot to CC you on an email I sent to a few gals about this. (Looks like you found this thread anyhow!) One of my favorite women in the business whom I emailed didn't even want to bother posting a reply in this thread. It's a shame that there are a number of women I know of who tend to stay out of debates like this because they don't have the energy to scream to be heard over all the men who don't want to listen to them anyhow. That's not good for fostering online community, it's losing out on valuable ideas by people who have decided it's not worth bothering with even trying to share them. (Not that I blame anyone for not using up their time fighting with people on ye olde internet.) For right now, I'm not going to bother with this get into heated discussion on this any more, because I don't think the majority (or vocal minority) here actually gives a toss about hearing what females and performers have to say, although they all agree that it sure would be great to have a chick as a spokesperson to make them look good. It's obvious that I am coming from a completely different world than most of the people posting here. I genuinely love what I'm creating, I take tremendous pride in the work I do, I believe I produce porn that helps to break down negative body images and sexual stigmas to make more people feel sexy within themselves. Porn is one part of my deep commitment to creating better things in this world on a number of levels, in my own small ways. I'll continue to educate people about how wonderful and beneficial and fun some of the adult industry is, shatter stereotypes about who a "smut peddler" is, and make ground-breaking porn that myself and my models are extremely happy with. (And you better believe that it's far more ground-breaking and "extreme" to assert that big/hairy/menstruating women are sexy, than to choke women purple and piss on them.) I'll just throw out one last thing. I've been repeated insulted over and over on this board about how I better recognize that some of you have been in this business since the 90s, so I need to shut up and respect my elders. I can only laugh at the irony of that statement. The sex industry was not invented in 1995 by a bunch of dudes on their computers. I have never been inspired by a "free site", but I have been moved by the words and creations of performers and producers like Nina Hartley and Annie Sprinkle, and I have a feeling they've been around a lot longer than anyone's TGP. In fact, I got interested in this business after reading about the strong, intelligent women who were prostitutes in the old west who braved all manner of harsh conditions so they could be independent and call their own shots. I have a feeling that passionate women will continue to inspire me on a day to day basis, and I'll continue to be touched every time someone tells me that one of my sites helped motivate them to create their own wonderful porn, or when a model tells me how truly proud they are to be on one of my little sites. It's not as exciting or profitable as running a massive sponsor program selling the latest gimmick and hoping customers forget to cancel their trials, but I'm content in knowing that I'm doing good things to forward positive human sexuality via pornography every single day. THAT, by itself, is my activism, and it needn't involve trying to force and fight a bunch of men into considering that maybe female models have something to say about what it's like to be a female model. __________________ furrygirl.com & vegporn.com & vegsexshop.com & eroticred.com

2006-02-02, 10:41 PM	#35
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	Well, as far as I'm concerned, the idea of trying to get female spokepersons and representatives is so inherently and obviously smart that it really doesn't need to be defended. The questions remaining on that are tactical - who to cultivate, how to get them practice at public performance, how to pay them, etc.. And, as I said before, I don't think we are at that stage yet. When we have some women who are willing to take on the responsibility, then we can analyze their style of presentation and talk about wether it's too feminist or not feminist enough. However, right now we are in a much earlier stage of the political game. The task ahead of us is to get enough organization and energy to be able to worry about things like paying a spokesperson. Which brings me back to brainstorming. The idea is to throw in ideas for what we want the FSC to do. If you had the power to get the FSC to do anything you wanted, lets say within, oh, $5,000 to $50,000 worth of something, what would that be?

2006-02-03, 07:02 AM	#44
Halfdeck You can now put whatever you want in this space :) Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Haven, CT Posts: 985	Furrygirl, let's not dwell on a divisive issue that puts up a fense between female performers and male webmasters or between paysite owners and free site builders. This is a time to band together and churn up ideas that will help everyone involved. __________________ Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiasm.

2006-02-03, 09:51 AM	#46
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	Furrygirl, you really are off on a charge, aren't you? Do you think that female performers have it over male performers? Do you think that tranny and gey performers have less rights than female performers? Do you think that performers per se are the only ones with a vote at the table? Do all the other people, like camera operators, still photographers, editors, producers, lighting guys, retouchers, hosting companies, DVD distributors, management types, and retail store owners don't also have some minor, tiny, insignificant little role to play in all of this? This isn't a feminist issue, that is what the christian-conservative nutjobs would want people to think. If you fight them on that issue, then you are only proving their point for them. For every Furrygirl or Kat Vixen, they will roll out 10 girls that will claim to have be somehow abused by the system. It isn't a strong suit for the industry, and you never should fight a battle based on your enemy's strength. It is pointless. Nobody is saying "shut up and respect your elders", but they are saying "respect your elders". If you fail to accept and understand the road that got us to this point, you will have no basis on which to change things. Your "get rid of the $750 visa fee" thing sounds nice in a vacuum, but in reality it has in my opinion done the industry a world of good, because it has kept many a scammer from coming in and getting a Visa account and fucking people over. Don't even try to say "it limits free speech", because the entry cost to put porn on the net for money is still one of the lowest entry costs for any normal business I can think of. Visa fee plus a camera, a PC, a net connection, a host, a domain... bang. You can have a personal membership website up for less than a couple of thousand dollars FROM SCRATCH. If you don't understand how we ended up with a $750 visa fee, you can't begin to fight against it. When you understand that there is a good chance that the choices are "Visa fee or Visa stops processing adult", most people would say "that is a small price to pay to be legit". As SirMoby said (in other words) strip down your posts and extract the ideas and bullet point them. Your turning every thread into some sort of woman power rally cry is getting old already. You are amoungst mostly like minded people here, we don't degrade women or look down on them or their contribution to the business. better to save the strident stuff for your debate on Foxnews facing Pat Buchanan. Alex

2006-02-03, 01:17 PM	#47
Tom Hymes Internet! Is that thing still around? Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3	* RawAlex is probably right about there being more adult webmaster members of FSC than any other group. That sounds like an opportunity to me. * RawAlex is wrong, imho, that Tim Valenti of NakedSword.com, the one person appointed to the FSC Board, is a "video guy." I certainly don't think Tim would characterize himself that way, but whatever. I did not have anything to do with that, the Board made the decision. If one of you had run and gathered even a little bit of support, you would have been on the Board. Tim was appointed because not enough people ran! * RawAlex is invited to run for the Board next time. He would be a great asset. If he's interested, he should contact me soon. (That's not meant to exclude others. See below.) * The fact is, we are actively working on developing policies that speak to the most difficult issues we face, which of course are Internet issues. Wanna help? * I am putting together an outline for a specific proposal regarding metatags right now. When it is done, I will be soliciting feedback from people who know far more about coding than I, and will certainly ask people on this board for help. I should have the outline finished in a week or so. I am on board for developing a tag that is "short, simple and clean" * Anyone who is interested in having a voice in the policies developed by the Free Speech Coalition is encouraged to contact me. We are actively soliciting people to run for the Board next year. My contact info is below. * Our federal lobbyists are working overtime in DC. They are fucking connected. You have no idea the feedback we are getting. They say there are open minds on the Hill. What you see on TV is mostly agitprop theater. The real work happens behind the scenes. We are there. Help us develop the right positions and policies so that when our lobbyists go into a Senator's office, your ideas come out through their mouths. * Email or call me. If you are interested in helping us, I will ask you for a phone number. If you don't give it to me, if I can't contact you other than through email, if you remain an anonymous person, your ideas will get through, but obviously we will have hit a brick wall as far as more hands on participation. Thanks! Tom tom@freespeechcoalition.com 818.304.1712 cell

2006-02-03, 02:48 PM	#48
RawAlex Took the hint. Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,597	Tom, I appreciate the offer, thank you. I stand corrected on Naked Sword, as I remembered it not as a website but as a video brand. Apologies to anyone affected as a result of my confusion. I am located in Canada. Is FSC accepting board members from outside of the US, or intending perhaps to have regional groups outside of the US? Thanks Alex

2006-02-03, 03:02 PM	#49
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	Ha ha ha Tom! Extra points to you for the excellent use of bullet points! ;-} And I also think Alex would make a good board member - we're going to have to twist his arm on this when the next round of elections come along. He's our 'professional skeptic', but his research tends to be very strong. I'm going to quickly close with two points: 1. The issue with the FSC website is very important to us. Please discuss it with board members, your technical staff and webmaster, your information officer, or whomever else is appropriate. Find out what you need at your end to give the website the ability to take credit cards and to add some kind of interactivity like a blog or message board. 2. Think about what _you_ and the FSC need from your membership, and let us know. This might make an excellent page or pages to add to the website - a "What can you do to help?" page. (You have a 'volunteer' link on the website, for example, but it just leads to a blank email.) What can webmasters, from the mom-and-pops to the big traffic whales, do to help?

2006-02-03, 03:39 PM	#50
Bill Selling porn allows me to stay in a constant state of Bliss - ain't that a trip! Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 3,914	I'm trying to come up with a list of the suggestions made so far, I'm just going to try to number them in order received: 1. To start, I want to make one suggestion to you that I think everyone here would agree with. We'd like to see improvements to the website, to have the website modernized a bit. An online system for accepting memberships and contributions would probably be the most important thing, and something that allows quicker two way communications, like a blog. 2. We know FSC will bitch about the cost of revamping their website. So we have a fund&skills drive here at GG&J, pull together the few thou and the workers it will take to give them a CC processor and a blog. In exchange the FSC puts a banner to GG&J on their website, making GG&J the "official" cool webmaster board. 3. Set up a one-hour live chat session with the FSC where any webmaster can participate without hopping on a plane. 4. When you finally get your online payment system happening, would you consider offering an “associate membership” for non US citizens? Or perhaps accept one-off donations? 5. Fund a general advertising campaign telling parents how to use filtering software - and make sure they knew it was the adult industry behind the ads. And on top of that, you'd probably need to launch a big PR campaign making sure the media know about the advertising and report on it. It's hard to put an anti-porn spin on the idea of "Adult Industry promotes web filtering", although I'm sure they'll give it a red hot go. 6. lobby Visa to drop their "high risk" $750 extortion fee. 7. (paraphraseing what I think Alex is really saying) Make the FSC more transparent by discussing membership numbers, budget, and expenses. And I'll add #8: 8. Hire an "online information officer" whose job would be to use boardtracker to patrol the boards (and maybe blogs), answer questions about the FSC and make reports about FSC activities, make daily or weekly entries in the newly created FSC blog, and in other ways act as a liason between the onliners and the FSC board. So, that's 8 suggestions to start out with - we need about a dozen more to make this an official brainstorm. Do me a favor please, and if you make a suggestion, bullet point it or otherwise emphasize it so it's easy to find and copy. And don't stop making suggestions - we need a dozen more! What do you want the FSC to do for us, if we could get them to spend up to $50K on your project?