Homegrown Payout question

[Far-L]

We are about to start paying $1.00 on trials and on conversion to full membership paying an additional $30.

Would that make us the laughing stock for paying so little on trials or would folks appreciate our efforts to put more money in the webmasters pockets in an honest way? (I am of the opinion that most programs, especially those that offer free trials are forced to shave to support their business model - I want it to be very clear to our affiliates that is absolutely not the case with us)

Also - we are about to turn on the recurring rev program so that people can finally cash in on our amazing retention. Do folks prefer recurring or just want the cash up front?

We could potentially do a PPS but I am wary of doing that since it invites a higher affiliate fraud level. I am not sure how much we would be able to pay - though I would fare to guess it would be less than what others do... still I say the same thing which is we would only do what is fiscally sound and open to audit.

[MadMax]

I think you're making an honest attempt to bridge a gap, but I'm dubious about what kind of success you'll have with a program like that. The whole idea of PPS is to get paid a flat rate per signup, not a buck then getting your flat rate if the trial converts to full membership. If you're having issues with the percentage of trials converting, IMO you'd be better off reducing the PPS payout and making revshare more attractive.

I can get $1-$4.95 for a trial signup at my revshare sponsors, and I get my percentage for the life of the membership. IMO there's no point in revshare that doesn't give me a cut of recurring memberships, and no point in PPS that pays out less than $20-$25.

[Ramster]

Go with revshare all the way if you plan to pay on the trial like that. $1.00 is not enough and then $30 when they rebill is not fair IMO. I assume the monthly is $40/month? So you'd be paying us $31 on $45 income (less processing fees) and keeping all rebills too.

But if people know it is revshare and they see a reasonable amount of trials convert to monthly and some decent rebills then you will make your webmasters happy.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Ramster

Go with revshare all the way if you plan to pay on the trial like that. $1.00 is not enough and then $30 when they rebill is not fair IMO. I assume the monthly is $40/month? So you'd be paying us $31 on $45 income (less processing fees) and keeping all rebills too.

But if people know it is revshare and they see a reasonable amount of trials convert to monthly and some decent rebills then you will make your webmasters happy.

Shouldn't it matter most how much the webmaster makes per click ultimately?

If the webmaster is making 10 sales a day and converting 1:100 with the $31 programn rather than 1:1000 with the $40 one then that is where the traffic should go.

The revshare will be golden since anyone who knows how sweet our retention is will be very happy with a high payout revshare; however I don't think the other payout we are offering is unfair. It is economically sound and highly conservative approach.

Remember - we learned about the other way of doing it while with CE.... and I will say no more until our lawsuit is done.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by MadMax

I think you're making an honest attempt to bridge a gap, but I'm dubious about what kind of success you'll have with a program like that. The whole idea of PPS is to get paid a flat rate per signup, not a buck then getting your flat rate if the trial converts to full membership. If you're having issues with the percentage of trials converting, IMO you'd be better off reducing the PPS payout and making revshare more attractive.

I can get $1-$4.95 for a trial signup at my revshare sponsors, and I get my percentage for the life of the membership. IMO there's no point in revshare that doesn't give me a cut of recurring memberships, and no point in PPS that pays out less than $20-$25.

We could potentially do a PPS but I am wary of doing that since it invites a higher affiliate fraud level. I am not sure how much we would be able to pay - though I would fare to guess it would be less than what others do... still I say the same thing which is we would only do what is fiscally sound and open to audit.

[Toby]

I've never been a fan of trials on revshare. My stats show that only about 1 in 8 to 10 don't cancel prior to the end of the trial.

I have one sponsor that offers a $25 PPS that pops a last chance trial console on exit from the signup page. They then pay 60% revshare on the trial and any rebills. I have yet to have a trial join from that sponsor rebill.

Of course, homegrown isn't like most other sponsors, so results could be completely different.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Do folks prefer recurring or just want the cash up front?

With amateur content like yours, I prefer revshare. On the big flashy mega-sites I prefer PPS.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Toby

I've never been a fan of trials on revshare. My stats show that only about 1 in 8 to 10 don't cancel prior to the end of the trial.

I have one sponsor that offers a $25 PPS that pops a last chance trial console on exit from the signup page. They then pay 60% revshare on the trial and any rebills. I have yet to have a trial join from that sponsor rebill.

Of course, homegrown isn't like most other sponsors, so results could be completely different.

We could just make it so revshares can go to non trial tours but leave that as an option. We do waaaaaaaaaaaayy better conversions on trials than 1:10. |shocking| so revshare on our trials will probably be far different...

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

With amateur content like yours, I prefer revshare. On the big flashy mega-sites I prefer PPS.

Thanks - I think of us as an amateur mega site without the flash... so we kind of fall between the typical ends of the spectrum where it is harder to see us for what we are... which is of course why I had to come here to bounce this off and getting a sounding.

[Ramster]

Originally Posted by Far-L

We could potentially do a PPS but I am wary of doing that since it invites a higher affiliate fraud level.

Yes agreed. A big problem as you draw the low-lifes of this biz real fast.

Far-L
What I was referring to was more of webmaster perception. Yes if the webmaster is making bank on click compared to other programs then they most likely will not complain. But I know if the program is bringing in $45 and paying me $31 and then keeping all the rebills it just "seems" unfair is all I am saying. The numbers are "weird". LOL

I'm only giving input as to what might happen or what webmasters might feel.

And when webmasters read the terms that they only get paid $30 when the member CONVERTS then they might get a negative vibe anyway so it may lose the punch of PPS you are trying to get across I think.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Ramster

Yes agreed. A big problem as you draw the low-lifes of this biz real fast.

Far-L
What I was referring to was more of webmaster perception. Yes if the webmaster is making bank on click compared to other programs then they most likely will not complain. But I know if the program is bringing in $45 and paying me $31 and then keeping all the rebills it just "seems" unfair is all I am saying. The numbers are "weird". LOL

I'm only giving input as to what might happen or what webmasters might feel.

And when webmasters read the terms that they only get paid $30 when the member CONVERTS then they might get a negative vibe anyway so it may lose the punch of PPS you are trying to get across I think.

I see what you are saying and I completely appreciate the feedback. I hope I didn't come off too defensively - I am just trying to figure out a way to sell something that on its surface seems less appealing until you get into the nuts and bolts...

We are left in a very awkward position as a result - I know from talking to the few webmasters that we do have that they do make more with us per click than so called high paying programs. I also know that some of those programs shave the short and curlys off their webmasters. Rick Mueyong of Best Porn and founder of Ynot (with a great reputation for honesty and integrity too) told me he was making four times more when we left CE on even less traffic than he sent them and even though we lowered our payout. (CE paid $50 to $55 and we pay only $30) Our site didn't change. Our marketing didn't change.

As to the "punch" of selling the fact that we are only paying $1 per trial you are right --- that will be more like a tickle. People will laugh at it. Our pay per ACTIVE FULL signup is hard enough to sell already... but luckily we have gotten this far on word of mouth and those that remember how well we sold in the CE programs (where we were the #1 program for a couple of years...)

[MadMax]

I'll preface this by saying I've never run or been part of running a program.

I've read and been part of lots of discussions involving PPS, and this is what I've seen a ton of sponsors do/say they did:

Start out as revshare only and pay on rebills. If you're not making money on a given webmaster's traffic then neither do they, and that way you can't lose your ass on affiliate sales by making a bad decision on PPS payout. After you've run for a few months and can really crunch the numbers to determine what you can afford to pay PPS, if it's a number at or over $20 start offering PPS then. Also bear in mind that many sponsors pay less on console free PPS than with consoles, and that doesn't seem to bother anyone a bit. We all know that without consoles a sponsor makes less on our traffic.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by MadMax

I'll preface this by saying I've never run or been part of running a program.

I've read and been part of lots of discussions involving PPS, and this is what I've seen a ton of sponsors do/say they did:

Start out as revshare only and pay on rebills. If you're not making money on a given webmaster's traffic then neither do they, and that way you can't lose your ass on affiliate sales by making a bad decision on PPS payout. After you've run for a few months and can really crunch the numbers to determine what you can afford to pay PPS, if it's a number at or over $20 start offering PPS then. Also bear in mind that many sponsors pay less on console free PPS than with consoles, and that doesn't seem to bother anyone a bit. We all know that without consoles a sponsor makes less on our traffic.

Great point but some background is necessary to answer...

From our time with with CE, we came in knowing what our retention and conversions were and where our kind of high pricing would perform. We also knew that we were making most of the traffic and did not need or want to pay recurring for the reasons you correctly describe. So that is why we started with simply paying on converted trial signups. And like I said, we have heard from more than a few that they are doing better with us now than ever before.

The problem is that perception of a high payout on trials but which is elusive I feel due to those traffic syphoning consoles and other tricks of the trade like inexplicable credits, etc.

So I guess I shouldn't really make any announcement about it and our webmasters will just be making more money than they were before... seems like the best course since the payment for trials might be mispercieved.

[Greenguy]

In all honestly, the $1 for a trial sign-up stinks (and the $30 if they stay reeks of another program that I know you don't want to be associated with anymore)

I'd much rather do a 50/50 split on everything (and would take that option over this one if it was offered)

While I do understand what you're trying to do, I think that $5 or $10 for the trial (with $25 or $20 if they stay) would be a little bit better of an offer.

If you're worried about fraud & whatnot with the straight PPS option, just offer it to certain webmasters that you know to be honest or have proved themselves to you with the revshare program. Some people will bitch, but who cares! Odds are the people that bitch that they have to use the revshare option would be the ones you'd have to keep an eye on if they were PPS

I can't get homegrown to load right now (probably a router on my end) so I can't look & see what the surfers are charged & the options for membership, otherwise I might have other options to throw out there

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

I can't get homegrown to load right now (probably a router on my end)

Looks like they're working through some script changes/errors right now. It's loading better now than it was earlier.

Is it possible to sign up to Homegrown Cash? I completed the form last night, but never received a welcome letter or lollipop or anything.

BTW, I have no vertical scrolling capability for Homegrown Cash in Firefox. Never seen that one before.

[Jim]

Just the email address of someone willing to pull out their cc and use it on an adult site is worth much more than $1. That is if they cancel.

[Allfetish]

Originally Posted by Far-L

Also - we are about to turn on the recurring rev program so that people can finally cash in on our amazing retention. Do folks prefer recurring or just want the cash up front?

With good honest reputable programs I highly prefer a 50/50 rev share. But it is extremely important to me that they keep everything on the up and up. That is, NO shaving, full credit for any exit and entrance consoles, my share of any cross sells, unlimited recurrs (none of the stop paying commision on rebills after 1/2/3 months BS). If they have a great members area, I know I will make a lot with them and stick around for a long time.

With ones that I am not sure about whether to trust, I just prefer PPS, if I have to use them at all. While the popular opinion is that you get shaved less on revshare, I do not buy it. It seems there are more opportunities to shave when doing revshare (such as the rebills) and if they are going to shave me at all and are that kind of people, human nature says that they'll probably need cash and try to get at me on the revshare too. For them, just give me the $ upfront because I cannot count on rebills. If I detect them shaving me on the PPS and start to see bad ratios, I'll drop them until/if they improve. Very easy. But the rebills I can't do anything about on a revshare and once I send them I am screwed.

As for the trials on revshare, I prefer a trial that has a price around $5 - $7 and getting a straight 50% cut. One major sponsior I use does this and while not all trials convert, when they do it is still nice to get $3.95 for them and the standard membership 50% cut too -- I actually come out ahead. If it is PPS however, I expect to be paid the normal commision. If they want to pay me less for trials on PPS, I think I should be able to send traffic to a no-trials page then and have that control. Too many ways to rip me off there with the trials.

About your program. This is twice that I have seen you on this board asking for input from webmasters and actually listening to feedback. I love that and see it as a good sign. I would definitely put you in the more "trusted" category and would prefer a 50/50 revshare with you given that. I will be signing up for your program, without doubt seeing what I have from you.


added thought: I notice with very good sites and honest programs it is not unusual to get a core of members who will rebill for years - thats what I look for too.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

Looks like they're working through some script changes/errors right now. It's loading better now than it was earlier.

Is it possible to sign up to Homegrown Cash? I completed the form last night, but never received a welcome letter or lollipop or anything.

BTW, I have no vertical scrolling capability for Homegrown Cash in Firefox. Never seen that one before.

We do have firefox issues - otherwise loading fine in Explorer. I will make sure you get the approval asap.

Thanks for coming on board! Please let me know if there is any particular content you need so I can get it in there for you asap too.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

In all honestly, the $1 for a trial sign-up stinks (and the $30 if they stay reeks of another program that I know you don't want to be associated with anymore)

I'd much rather do a 50/50 split on everything (and would take that option over this one if it was offered)

While I do understand what you're trying to do, I think that $5 or $10 for the trial (with $25 or $20 if they stay) would be a little bit better of an offer.

If you're worried about fraud & whatnot with the straight PPS option, just offer it to certain webmasters that you know to be honest or have proved themselves to you with the revshare program. Some people will bitch, but who cares! Odds are the people that bitch that they have to use the revshare option would be the ones you'd have to keep an eye on if they were PPS

I can't get homegrown to load right now (probably a router on my end) so I can't look & see what the surfers are charged & the options for membership, otherwise I might have other options to throw out there

You don't know how much I am going to hate having to tell my brother that he was right about this...

But I think my point about what the webmaster actually makes on their clicks is relevent. I still say that we can beat the dishonest program with a higher pps with our honest ppActive. At the end of the day it should be about what you make with the program and where the clicks make the most.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Jim

Just the email address of someone willing to pull out their cc and use it on an adult site is worth much more than $1. That is if they cancel.

True - but that is also one of the ways that surfers get pissed when their email is whored out and we don't do that to our surfers. From the program owner point of view the email is one more asset they can make money on without having to pay the webmaster for. Even the programs that pay for opt in emails are not paying for sales generated off the subsequent mailings. From the webmaster point of view I think that would be just as much of a leak as an uncredited cross sell.

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by Allfetish

With good honest reputable programs I highly prefer a 50/50 rev share. But it is extremely important to me that they keep everything on the up and up. That is, NO shaving, full credit for any exit and entrance consoles, my share of any cross sells, unlimited recurrs (none of the stop paying commision on rebills after 1/2/3 months BS). If they have a great members area, I know I will make a lot with them and stick around for a long time.

With ones that I am not sure about whether to trust, I just prefer PPS, if I have to use them at all. While the popular opinion is that you get shaved less on revshare, I do not buy it. It seems there are more opportunities to shave when doing revshare (such as the rebills) and if they are going to shave me at all and are that kind of people, human nature says that they'll probably need cash and try to get at me on the revshare too. For them, just give me the $ upfront because I cannot count on rebills. If I detect them shaving me on the PPS and start to see bad ratios, I'll drop them until/if they improve. Very easy. But the rebills I can't do anything about on a revshare and once I send them I am screwed.

As for the trials on revshare, I prefer a trial that has a price around $5 - $7 and getting a straight 50% cut. One major sponsior I use does this and while not all trials convert, when they do it is still nice to get $3.95 for them and the standard membership 50% cut too -- I actually come out ahead. If it is PPS however, I expect to be paid the normal commision. If they want to pay me less for trials on PPS, I think I should be able to send traffic to a no-trials page then and have that control. Too many ways to rip me off there with the trials.

About your program. This is twice that I have seen you on this board asking for input from webmasters and actually listening to feedback. I love that and see it as a good sign. I would definitely put you in the more "trusted" category and would prefer a 50/50 revshare with you given that. I will be signing up for your program, without doubt seeing what I have from you.


added thought: I notice with very good sites and honest programs it is not unusual to get a core of members who will rebill for years - thats what I look for too.

Thanks for the compliments!

Besides site sales, our system tracks any store sales, including vod, and the only other upsell we do in our members area is a couple of cam networks. As soon as we redo our own network then we will drop the others and webmasters would make money off our cams as well - which would make us completely airtight with tracking any and all income for affiliates through a complimentary set of upsells and cross sells.

We have customers who have literally been avid fans for over 20 years. Web-wise our retention is very hardy - and we are not a cheap site.

[emmanuelle]

Slightly off topic, but Far-L are you still promoting amateur sites through ref codes in your member area? We notice the odd sale coming in, which then reminds me that we have not submitted any pics to Stef in a while. If you're still doing it, I'll have Kassy get on it this week.
thanks!

[Far-L]

Originally Posted by emmanuelle

Slightly off topic, but Far-L are you still promoting amateur sites through ref codes in your member area? We notice the odd sale coming in, which then reminds me that we have not submitted any pics to Stef in a while. If you're still doing it, I'll have Kassy get on it this week.
thanks!

We quit doing it a while back. We will bring it back though when we can pay our affiliates a cut of it and when we are set up to track whether the amateurs are sending back traffic like they are supposed to do but so often don't.

[furrygirl]

I prefer revshare. (I'm not much of a sponsor promoter, but I would never want to try and push sales to crappy flashy sites that I know people are going to cancel on after they see the inside.) I think revshare is always the fairest way to do everything from both sides, as someone who runs an affiliate program and as someone who sends traffic to them.

Homegrown does well on my traffic. My trials convert at 1:3, which I think is good.

[GonZo]

Maybe Im too stuck in my ways but Ive always evaluated my sponsors on this simple concept.

amount of traffic vs. size of check.

Shave,PPS, $1, $50 trials ... it all boils down to the size of the check.
I adjust accordingly.