Setting Up A Directory: My Adventures

[Greenguy]

My advice is simply to not live & die by SE stuff, because if it never comes or leaves you for some unknown reason, you'll be very happy that you have a solid surfer base established.

[kristian]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

My advice is simply to not live & die by SE stuff, because if it never comes or leaves you for some unknown reason, you'll be very happy that you have a solid surfer base established.

I appreciate your advice and I agree with you on this. If you read through my posts here you can see that this is my top priority. I believe I even wrote somewhere about "a surfer utopia". However, If I can use seo without hurting the surfer's experience too much, then I will go ahead and do it.

The reason I need to make this point clear to you, or anyone reading, is this topic of "keeping the surfer happy" is the driving force behind my entire business plan. In a sense, it is the style of the site. With it being the new kid on the block, with us all using similar business plans, this style is my way of market penetration.

[Simon]

Hiya Kristian

Nice to see you've made a lot of progress!

I met and had a nice talk with Matt online a week or so ago during a chat (on another network) that was nearly empty due to the time change. After talking with him awhile, I bookmarked his site for future LL projects where I want help instead of taking the do it myself approach. Nice to see that I made a good move there.

I also wanted to say thanks for reminding me of something I always used to do, but had forgotten about with the new XRT project. You and UW talked about it here:

Originally Posted by kristian

...there will be no advertising at the start. ...boomarkers, trades and content are priceless... and surfers will get clean pages to encourage bookmarking.

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

...something MML... and... GG do when they work a new project. First gain the love of the surfers, then work on marketing to them.

I couldn't agree more with what you're talking about regarding the value of bookmarkers. There are sites I built where I didn't add any promotions for months, sometimes many months. Letting things age and season a bit has worked well for things here too.

On a side note, I saying thanks since I just spent several days going back through all the templates I built when I set up XRT and have now moved the design back to where I first had it, with no banners or button graphics except those of the site itself.

One last thing and then I'm out of here...

Originally Posted by kristian

...encouraging bookmarkers has been...a driving force in my design of the site. ... I think you (GG) agree that the fewer outbound links per page, the better. If we can agree on that, then my argument is this : I don't think surfers will be all that bothered about 50 links per page.

I like the clean design you're using. I like how you're trying to encourage bookmarkers by giving them a clean, well-designed interface that they can use to pull content from your database.

I know you've looked at LOR.

Sorry, but I got a big grin when you said to GG, "I think you agree that the fewer outbound links per page, the better." I just checked the "hardcore" category page at LOR. Not counting links to other category pages, I believe there are around 550 outbound links on that page.

I think GG's using that same basic idea with www.pornmovielinks.com too. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the intent there is to keep making those pages longer and longer until they're just too long (then invent another sub-sub-category).

So --- one thing I'd love to see discussed here are what I'm referring to as the two opposing camps of LL design:

1. Put all the links you can on one long page, using categories and sub-categories to split thing up when you eventually have too many listings on some page(s).

2. Use a "fixed" page size, with "Next Page" style links to move to more content, instead of scrolling down to see more.

Getting a better understanding of "why" someone would choose one design strategy over another could be a very important part of starting a new link list. IMHO

For any LL owners reading this...

Do you think either design has some inherent advantage over the other that you talk about here?

Do you think one design is more surfer-friendly than the other (and why)?


Simon

[Greenguy]

Here's another thought that just rattled thru my head

Every free site submitters knows that the hits come in full force during the 1st day or so of being listed. It trails off a bit after that until they are removed from the "new" page & they are just listed on the category page.

Let's say you get big (and I sure do hope you do) & you're listing more than 50 new sites each day. Every link after 50 gets moved to the 2nd "new" page?

3 days later, they're on the 4th or 5th "new" page where very few surfers will see them?

****

Meatman used to bounce ideas off of me all the time. My job was to poke holes in the ideas so that he could fix them or toss them in the trash. If he had an idea that I could not poke holes in, he ran with it.

I like to poke holes in things

[kristian]

Hey Simon

I'll say one more thing about design on this subject. Have you ever been to one of those tgps that has a million tiny links on their main page? We all have I guess. I fucking hate them with a passion! When I'm looking for porn I don't want to have to SQUINT to find it or spend minutes scrolling down the page to find it.

One of Matt's biggest jobs was modding the directory structure. I have gone to great lengths to make it easy for surfers to find the porn. You will see when I post up the links. I have also made the links and headings bigger than usual for the same reasons. I could be entirely wrong (surfer -wise) but I'm designing a link list that appeals to my own surfing habits : easy to FIND and easy to SEE porn.

Regarding Matt. Honestly, you have made a great choice. As you can see I am as quick to document poor service (Dickman Design) as I am to document good service, so you can trust my opinion. Without his involvement my little project would still have been in the land of the fucked up.

Righto, I'm off to shower and peddle some more porno. I always look forward to your posts dude. I hope we get some feed back on the issues you raised.

[kristian]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

Here's another thought that just rattled thru my head

Every free site submitters knows that the hits come in full force during the 1st day or so of being listed. It trails off a bit after that until they are removed from the "new" page & they are just listed on the category page.

Let's say you get big (and I sure do hope you do) & you're listing more than 50 new sites each day. Every link after 50 gets moved to the 2nd "new" page?

3 days later, they're on the 4th or 5th "new" page where very few surfers will see them?

****

Meatman used to bounce ideas off of me all the time. My job was to poke holes in the ideas so that he could fix them or toss them in the trash. If he had an idea that I could not poke holes in, he ran with it.

I like to poke holes in things

****
I'm having fun dude. You're keeping me on my toes and making me think more about what I'm doing. Keep em coming you sexy big green fucker you!!!
****

This is a great point. You're looking at it from every angle. Good stuff.

This all boils down to one thing : How much harder is it to click a link and move on to page 2 than is it to just scroll down the page and see the other links. It is a little bit harder (because clicking is harder than scrolling) but not much. So if they are keen to see more than 50 links they are probably just as likely to click Page 2 as they are to scroll down the page some more.

I compromised on some se in the design phase. When you submit a new link, here is what happens :

Example : You submit a cumshot free site.

Your free site gets listed

- New Links
- Cumshots
- Cumshot Free Sites.

So you get your site on 3 pages.

Furthermore!

I've setup the script to encourage quality submissions.

The better your description and site the more clicks and user ratings you will get. The more of these you get the more chance you have of landing on 2 EXTRA pages -- top rated and cool links.

All in all, I would say the submitter gets more here (BESIDES TRAFFIC LOL) than most other link lists.

*smashes tennis ball back your motherfucking way*

[Greenguy]

What exactly will be listed on this "cumshots" page along with my free site? If you tell me cumshot galleries and cumshot blogs, I'm gonna bite you in the face

And don't let the submitters pick their own descriptions. Let me put on my SEO hat & remind you that if everyone did that, we'd all have the same text on our pages. Write your own descriptions
(and I'm not even going to mention that a lot of submitters stink when it comes to writing descriptions, especially when they get out that keyword generating script)

[kristian]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

What exactly will be listed on this "cumshots" page along with my free site? If you tell me cumshot galleries and cumshot blogs, I'm gonna bite you in the face

Most of us submit free sites as well as galleries. We always tell newbies to make two galleries out of their free sites. Nowadays most of us also have blogs. No reason why we can't put all those in one place. What are your thoughts dude?

Originally Posted by Greenguy

And don't let the submitters pick their own descriptions. Let me put on my SEO hat & remind you that if everyone did that, we'd all have the same text on our pages. Write your own descriptions

This is one of the best tips I've had.

[kristian]

Greenie --

Been thinking about the links per page. I'm still convinced my reasons are sound, but if anyone knows about keeping link list surfers happy, you do.

A compromise : I list, say, 2 days of links on the latest links page.

Sound cool?

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by kristian

Most of us submit free sites as well as galleries. We always tell newbies to make two galleries out of their free sites. Nowadays most of us also have blogs. No reason why we can't put all those in one place. What are your thoughts dude?...

I think that Link Lists list Free Sites, TGP's list Galleries, Whatever lists Blogs & that a combination of any of them do not belong on the same page.

You gonna have a Cumshot Free Site page, a Cumshot Gallery page, a Cumshot Blog page & one that combines all 3?

TGP's are what they are.

Link List work because of the Free Site model: more pages, more pics/movies, more ads.

I think that the current state of blogs is horrendous, with more & more morons using the concept of "blogs" as an excuse to push more galleries.

"A blog is your easy-to-use web site, where you can quickly post thoughts, interact with people, and more."

WHAT THE FUCK IS A CUMSHOT BLOG ANYWAY?!?!?!?!? Let's talk about cumshots, guys!

If you're gonna list all 3 of these, then we really need to change the title of this thread, because I don't want anyone to think what you're doing is a Link List.

[kristian]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

I think that Link Lists list Free Sites, TGP's list Galleries, Whatever lists Blogs & that a combination of any of them do not belong on the same page.

I think link lists list ... links.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

You gonna have a Cumshot Free Site page, a Cumshot Gallery page, a Cumshot Blog page & one that combines all 3?

TGP's are what they are.

Nope. TGP = Thumbnail "Gallery" Post.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

Link List work because of the Free Site model: more pages, more pics/movies, more ads.

I think free sites, galleries, link lists, blogs, are just like commercials on tv. Some are long, some are short.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

I think that the current state of blogs is horrendous, with more & more morons using the concept of "blogs" as an excuse to push more galleries.

"A blog is your easy-to-use web site, where you can quickly post thoughts, interact with people, and more."

TGP blogs are pitiful, I agree. I make $15 to 20 K / month from blog traffic. You don't need any pics at all really, just the odd one or two. All you need is to choose the right niche, fuck around with the seo, and use winning text.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

WHAT THE FUCK IS A CUMSHOT BLOG ANYWAY?!?!?!?!? Let's talk about cumshots, guys!

I don't own a cumshot blog, but I'd guess it is one about cumshots. I suspect the webmaster has targetted the cumshot niche, much as you suggested I creat a niche site here, in the hopes of getting cumshot traffic which he / she intends to pass on to cumshot sponsors.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

If you're gonna list all 3 of these, then we really need to change the title of this thread, because I don't want anyone to think what you're doing is a Link List.

Better change the title buddy

[Greenguy]

By your thinking, TGP's are also Link Lists because they have a list of links.

Title will be changed, thread will be moved to the Newbie forum & I wish you the best of luck with your project.

[kristian]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

By your thinking, TGP's are also Link Lists because they have a list of links.

No dude. Link Lists list LINKS. Thumbnail Gallery Posts list GALLERIES. That is my way of thinking.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

Title will be changed, thread will be moved to the Newbie forum & I wish you the best of luck with your project.

Was it something I said? lol

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by kristian

No dude. Link Lists list LINKS. Thumbnail Gallery Posts list GALLERIES. That is my way of thinking...

Then why will your "link list" list galleries?

The bottom line is that Link Lists link to Free Sites & Pay Sites and sometimes AVS Sites & other similar lists/pages. Some have other sections like galleries & blogs & POTD & whatnot, but the main focus is the Free & Pay Sites.

What you are building is NOT a Link List in my eyes & based on that, I can endorse this as a "how to" for building a Link List from scratch.

I have no experience in building or maintaining the type of site that you are building, so I will wish you luck with it & keep my mouth shut

[kristian]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

Then why will your "link list" list galleries?

My site will list ... links.

Links to free sites.

Links to galleries.

Links to blogs.

Links to paysites.

Links.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

The bottom line is that Link Lists link to Free Sites & Pay Sites and sometimes AVS Sites & other similar lists/pages. Some have other sections like galleries & blogs & POTD & whatnot, but the main focus is the Free & Pay Sites.

You've described some link lists, not all of them. The model is not so restricted.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

What you are building is NOT a Link List in my eyes & based on that, I can endorse this as a "how to" for building a Link List from scratch.

I have no experience in building or maintaining the type of site that you are building, so I will wish you luck with it & keep my mouth shut

Your call. But I have trouble believing this is your reason.

[Greenguy]

Then please feel free to enlighten me as to what my reason might be

[kristian]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

Then please feel free to enlighten me as to what my reason might be

It seems clear. You don't like people disagreeing with you.

[Greenguy]

The basis of all the problems is that your definition of a Link List is not the same as mine...and I bet a majority of the board would agree with me.

But what do I know about the definition of a Link List?

[kristian]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

The basis of all the problems is that your definition of a Link List is not the same as mine...and I bet a majority of the board would agree with me.

I define a link list as a site that lists links.

You define it as a site that links to free sites, paysites, and maybe sometimes avs sites. Galleries and blogs are a no-no in your book.

Is that such a HUGE difference?

That is your reason for no longer supporting this project on GreenguyandJim, moving the thread, keeping your mouth shut.

That about right?

Originally Posted by Greenguy

But what do I know about the definition of a Link List?

Your first remark was a plea for everyone to start posting and hammering me. This last remark was a sarcastic way of implying that you are infallable on the subject of link lists.

Anyone reading our exchanges can see you have been argumentative from start to finish. God knows the real reason. But I feel your attitude has ruined a good thing.

[Greenguy]

I look like I am arguing with you because I was under the assumption that you were going to create a Link List based on the definition that everyone on this board has.

When you approached me about this project, I assumed that you knew what a Link List is. In the adult webmaster world, a Link List is how I have defined it above & all my comments are based on creating & maintaining one very popular Link List as well as numerous smaller ones that only a handful of people care aobut.

I do not know if there is a term for the site that you are building, but I do know that it is not "Link List"

I'm sorry if you feel offended or angered by this, but I don't know what else to tell you.

I don't want anyone to bash you, I just want you to realize that in the eyes of the people on this board & in our industry, your project is not a Link List.

[Cleo]

Kristian I think that most would say you are setting up a directory. At least that is what I would call it.

I build and submit to a few places like that. I have them in both my TGP and LL submit list. The only real issue is you are going to have TGP galleries listed that are just about exactly the same as the galleries on the free sites submitted all listed together.

I accept TGP galleries too but it is a different script, submit form, and my submitters tend to be different then my LL submitters so the galleries and pics tend to be different. Also I have a separate TGP page for galleries that is linked to my LL but is different then my LL.

If I ever started accepting Blogs I would probably make that a separate section too.

[kristian]

I'm not angered. If anyone appears angry here, it is you. I'm disappointed with you.

You are using our disagreement about the definition of a link list as an excuse to terminate your support, unstick the thread, move it, and kill the atmosphere of a public project that was universally liked and helpful to everyone who participated. It is akin to throwing a tantrum when not not getting your own way.

You would have people believe your reasons are due to my "directory structure" alone - the same as that used by penisbot, dangerdave, smut gremlins, off the top of my head. The only difference between my definition and your own is I choose to list galleries and blogs. And for that - for galleries and for blogs - you have reacted as you have done.

I can only speculate as to why you have acted in this way. Surely, however, it cannot be for the reasons you have mentioned. Have it your way though. I'm just sat here trying to make money and enjoy myself. You've sapped my enthusiasm but I will still probably continue with the thread, should anyone be interested.

[kristian]

Originally Posted by Cleo

Kristian I think that most would say you are setting up a directory. At least that is what I would call it.

I build and submit to a few places like that. I have them in both my TGP and LL submit list. The only real issue is you are going to have TGP galleries listed that are just about exactly the same as the galleries on the free sites submitted all listed together.

I accept TGP galleries too but it is a different script, submit form, and my submitters tend to be different then my LL submitters so the galleries and pics tend to be different. Also I have a separate TGP page for galleries that is linked to my LL but is different then my LL.

If I ever started accepting Blogs I would probably make that a separate section too.

Hey Cleo

I agree. I define a link list as a site that lists links. Some people define it as one that lists free sites, avs , and paysites. Some would say this a directory and that's a link list. It is all semantics. This is not the real issue. And I have never said I would be stupid enough to list the same content.

The issue here is due to my site listing galleries and blogs, GreenguyandJim have officially pulled their involvment, moved the thread, unstick it, and destroyed a happy and productive atmosphere. Over "galleries" and "blogs".

Do you think galleries and blogs are a good reason for that? Of course not.

I've always said it, my honesty gets me in trouble. But the truth is I disagreed when I should have agreed. The punishment is a thoroughly bizarre day and a waste of precious time and energy.

All this over blogs and galleries? I don't think so. The green one just doesn't like debate.

[Greenguy]

I've terminated my support, moved the thread & unstuck it because YOU'RE NOT BUILDING A LINK LIST! I agreed to support a Link List project & not the project that you are working.

All of my opinions are based on what I think a Link List should & shouldn't be.

Had I known that this is the project that you wanted to do, I would have never told you that I'd back it & offer support - I do not know anything about the kind of site you are trying to build, so why would or how could I offer help? I know Link Lists as seen in my eyes & my work.

Shame on me for assuming I understood what you were trying to do. Sorry for the mistake on my part.

[kristian]

Originally Posted by Greenguy

I've terminated my support, moved the thread & unstuck it because YOU'RE NOT BUILDING A LINK LIST! I agreed to support a Link List project & not the project that you are working.

You did so because you don't like me disagreeing with you. This is merely a scapegoat you've concocted. The only difference to my idea of a link list and your own is I choose to list galleries and blogs.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

All of my opinions are based on what I think a Link List should & shouldn't be.

I'm sure your opinion would be just as valid if we added the galleries and blogs into the mix.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

Had I known that this is the project that you wanted to do, I would have never told you that I'd back it & offer support - I do not know anything about the kind of site you are trying to build, so why would or how could I offer help? I know Link Lists as seen in my eyes & my work.

The site is the same as yours except it lists galleries and blogs. You want me or anyone to believe that stops you adding valuable input? How could you offer help, you say? Greenguy, this is just silly.

Originally Posted by Greenguy

Shame on me for assuming I understood what you were trying to do. Sorry for the mistake on my part.

Yes, I'm such an unreasonable meanie. I'm sorry for being such an unreasonable, argumentative nasty ole meanie.

What you should be sorry for, Greenguy, is acting very poorly.