A discussion about Flash Movies

[Ms Naughty]

I've realised I'm a bit behind the times when it comes to movies (I've yet to make a movie based free site) but it's time I caught up and I wanted to start a thread about it.

I've been doing the research into making flash videos for the web, converting mpgs and wmvs to flv files and stuff. It's a bit of a learning curve. I did a search of the board but there aren't too many threads on the topic.

So... how do the others on this board feel about flash movies? Not necessarily on tube sites, but as things that can be embedded into blogs and also as affiliate content - I've seen sponsors offering movie galleries with the videos embedded as flash. There's also the idea of sponsor hosted embeddable flv players for blogs.

Is it better to use flash than the other movie formats? Does it use more or less bandwidth?

Do you feel you make more or less sales when it comes to flash movies? Have you found them to be a useful sponsor tool?

Do linklist owners have an issue with flash movies being used on freesites?

Does anyone have any suggestions for resources on this topic? I've found a few sites, will add them in a separate post.

By the way, I'm not talking about using flash to make websites - I'm sure we can all agree that those long stupid intros are frustrating. I'm really talking about flvs and swfs movies that can be embedded into a page.

And yes, I guess this is a big, broad thread topic, not terribly specific. Just wanted to get a conversation going, find out what others are doing with this medium.

[Cleo]

I like Flash movies when used this way.

I've also thought of using them inside of member's areas but never have.

For free sites and TGP not sure if they are such a good idea since it is too easy to do really bad things with Flash files also it seems that some surfer's disable Flash believing that it is only used for ads and malware.

[thebes]

I've been using flash movies inside of a blog and have had good luck with it. One nice thing is that you can put a player inline that the vast majority of surfers can actually use inline. Its a very compatable and easy to use format. I can even watch flash video on my slightly geeked out mobile phone.

Size... You really shouldn't see much higher or lower quality at a given data rate compared to other modern video formats. BUT, you might find lower quality encoding a wmv, mov etc into flv at near the same datarate. Remember that wmv, h.264, etc codecs are not intended to edit, they are highly compressed formats for end users. This is sort of like editing a jpg, you loose quality, but you loose it a lot faster than with a high quality jpg because there is so much more compression.

[tickler]

Just 2 items on a side note.

1) There is a certain problem which seem to be mainly involving version checking/action scripting that keeps crashing my browser. Run a Google search for "flash crashes explorer". I've noticed it on a few sponsor tours and a few sites, and they are checking into it. I really hate sending surfers to sponsors , and having their browser crash.

2) Is their a simple program that will take videos, and encode them into flash with my referral links. Something like a final frame that has click here to replay, or click here to visit the sponsor. Some sponsors have them, but, for the others I would like to bulk encode a bunch.

[Ms Naughty]

Tickler, in my various searches I found this software:
http://www.easyflv.com/
It's $50 but it looks really easy to use and it offers clickable videos. It's like the writers deliberately made it for affiliates.

OK, so so far I'm not getting a wave of enthusiasm LOL

The reasons I was looking into it are that, firstly, I was wondering if our affiliates would be interested in flash movie galleries or embeddable tools.

But I was also wondering about Tigermom's idea about using flash to make movie galleries and movie free sites. Is there a rule against this on linklists?

If the user can't download the video as easily, isn't that better because it means less free porn? I would think it would be a handy thing inside members areas, but then the quality may not be so good.

I am still a newbie at all this and pretty ignorant.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

If the user can't download the video as easily, isn't that better because it means less free porn? I would think it would be a handy thing inside members areas, but then the quality may not be so good.

Frankly, I'm amazed that we haven't seen a greater rush to embrace Flash technology on our sites, both on hosted promos and within the members area. The quality can be very good. I'm building a members area right now, and one of the things I'm doing is running my .wmvs through a Flash software so that I can deliver my own streaming vids for those members who don't want to download the movies. Yes, the .WMVs will be there as well. I wish we could all switch over to streaming-only rather than easily downloadable formats, but today's members think they own our content when they pay for a monthly membership - spoiled brats.

If you're building hosted galleries and free sites, I don't see why any webmaster would complain if you use embedded Flash movies. Surfers love Flash. This is the YouTube generation we're dealing with, after all. When I get around to building my own hosted tools, some distant day, all of the movies, maybe even the banners, will be Flash. I'll still offer traditional .WMV clips for affiliate (ab)use. This is assuming that I actually put an affiliate program together.

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

...If you're building hosted galleries and free sites, I don't see why any webmaster would complain if you use embedded Flash movies...

I agree - I need to look into allowing submitters to use embedded movies on their gallery pages.

[Preacher]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

Frankly, I'm amazed that we haven't seen a greater rush to embrace Flash technology on our sites, both on hosted promos and within the members area. The quality can be very good. I'm building a members area right now, and one of the things I'm doing is running my .wmvs through a Flash software so that I can deliver my own streaming vids for those members who don't want to download the movies. Yes, the .WMVs will be there as well. I wish we could all switch over to streaming-only rather than easily downloadable formats, but today's members think they own our content when they pay for a monthly membership - spoiled brats.

If you're building hosted galleries and free sites, I don't see why any webmaster would complain if you use embedded Flash movies. Surfers love Flash. This is the YouTube generation we're dealing with, after all. When I get around to building my own hosted tools, some distant day, all of the movies, maybe even the banners, will be Flash. I'll still offer traditional .WMV clips for affiliate (ab)use. This is assuming that I actually put an affiliate program together.

I love flash, but...

Like you said, surfers do not like it in the members area as the only option. I know this because I promote a sponsor that had DRM movies and they never rebilled and they removed DRM and all of the sudden I started seeing consistent rebills. Like you said, both options would be great, but more time consuming to create.

And for flash vids on freesites/galleries, those offered by the sponsor would go quick, because to not only cut a clip from the members area and then have to encode it in flash is just one more time consuming step, maybe.

Actually this gives me an idea on embedding flash movies, just another thing to add to my ever expanding todo list.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Preacher

Like you said, surfers do not like it in the members area as the only option. I know this because I promote a sponsor that had DRM movies and they never rebilled and they removed DRM and all of the sudden I started seeing consistent rebills. Like you said, both options would be great, but more time consuming to create.

I blame those FUCKING REVIEW SITES for making DRM and watermarks seem like a horrible thing. They should be making judgments based on quality and quantity on content, not on site owners not wanting members to download everything and upload it to an illegal tube. They may as well hand out chargeback instructions while they're at it, the unwashed pricks. (I have an entire rant about review sites if you want to hear it. And yes, I know they're traffic converts very well. That doesn't mean we have to like them.)

It is time-consuming. Especially when you have your members area videos almost completely uploaded before realizing that you didn't watermark them. I do think it's worth the time, even if it's only purpose is to make it seem like you have more up-to-date gimmicks for the members to play with. One of the many, many useless ideas I have is to convert a bunch of movies I purchased (the ones Preacher wishes he had) to Flash, and stream them as bonus content, rather than paying for 3rd party feeds. I don't want to offer those for download.

Originally Posted by Preacher

And for flash vids on freesites/galleries, those offered by the sponsor would go quick, because to not only cut a clip from the members area and then have to encode it in flash is just one more time consuming step, maybe.

SWF clips are pretty handy on hubs and such. I use them as advertising directly on some of my link list pages. I sort of like encoding my own because I can make them the correct proportions for a given spot and put my affiliate link inside so that if the surfer mistakingly clicks the movie and not the play button, they end up at the tour. Oopsy!

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Greenie

I agree - I need to look into allowing submitters to use embedded movies on their gallery pages.

The only thing I can think of at this moment is that you don't want the movies themselves linked to anything since you cannot see the destination URL when hovering over a Flash object.

[Toby]

OK, here is an example of exactly why embeded Flash movies will not be allowed in submitted free sites or galleries.

The content of the video is meaningless, just something I had handy.

wait for the end...

http://www.feet-n-heels.com/flash-test.htm

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Toby

OK, here is an example of exactly why embeded Flash movies will not be allowed in submitted free sites or galleries.

The content of the video is meaningless, just something I had handy.

wait for the end...

http://www.feet-n-heels.com/flash-test.htm

I can't remember which, but that can be done with either MPEGs or WMVs and has been a possibility for years. I don't know exactly how they do it, but it's been done to me several times.

[Cleo]

You can do much more evil things with Flash then that. You are basically letting an executable run in your browser.

[Ms Naughty]

Really? So flash isn't so good for security.

I've got heaps of reading to do... and no time, as usual.

[AndyS]

I have said a few times that I would like to be able to use flash in the FS I submit, you can add evil things easily to it but I would argue that the type of people who are looking to do this are able and have done it in many other ways.
If you got a submission using flash movies from say Useless would that still be an issue?

[papagmp]

Originally Posted by grandmascrotum

Really? So flash isn't so good for security.

I've got heaps of reading to do... and no time, as usual.

There was a major security hole discovered in Flash last year. Adobe has provided an upgrade but not all users have installed the upgrade.

As with any executable you download to your computer, there is always that ability for some jackass to find a loophole that will allow him/her to exploit weaknesses in the code. Does that mean we don't use it?

I for one, am moving in the direction of using more Flash video in my blogs, hubs, and possible providing it in the affiliate area. But I'm not rushing down this road with a blindfold on either.

[babymaker]

Originally Posted by Greenie

I agree - I need to look into allowing submitters to use embedded movies on their gallery pages.

I would love to be able to submit movie freesites with embedded flash, esspecially if i can use my tube cuts, i get tons better conversions and am a good editor, and i hate going back to cutting up a video into 10 15 sec clips and ruining the flow of the content, any chance you could lead the way and allow a standard 4 page freesite, but the movie gallery pages would have 1 longer 2 min or so video and maybe less ads really only one text link under the video would be needed, might help pull some of the tube surfers back to LL's with less clicking and the more modern web2.0 people are now embracing.

[Cleo]

The thing about Flash is you can do just about anything with it like really complex scripting for better or worse.

Nike's site is done totally in Flash to get an idea of what it can do. IMO this is one of the better uses of Flash but just think what evil things someone could do. This is why we don't allow JAVA or Javascript or even much PHP.

[Cleo]

The Dilbert readers seem pretty upset abut the switch to Flash.

[Star Man]

I was under the impression that flash movies hardly used any bandwidth.I thought that was how all these tube sites were getting away with posting all these big free movies this whole time.Looks like those sites go through more bandwidth then I thought|shocking|

I only made a couple of free movie sites and had to pull em'cuz they ended up using up 90 gigs after getting listed.I should have optimized and cut them up better though.Anyhow,if flash uses just a little less bandwidth,I'd like to build movie sites again personally.

As far as being concerned with flash because you can make it do evil things,I got an idea.|goodidea How about if we build free sites with flash movies that.........don't do evil things. If a webmaster is an asshole then he/she can already redirect pics,and whatever else you can think of doing to fuck over surfers.Flash can do some crazy stuff but once its embedded on a site that gets listed,it isn't any more of a risk to be messed with then anything else on a site is it?|confused|

[Star Man]

Originally Posted by Star Man

I was under the impression that flash movies hardly used any bandwidth.I thought that was how all these tube sites were getting away with posting all these big free movies this whole time.Looks like those sites go through more bandwidth then I thought|shocking|

Wait a sec,I'm a little confused.How much bandwidth (if any) does the average 1 minute flash clip use? Anyone?

[thebes]

Flash will not use less bandwidth for a given video quality. You can cut the quality to save bandwidth, but Flash is not a magic bullet to save bandwidth. Really, it might mean you use more, I feel surfers are more likely to watch a Flash video.

I can't say if Flash is a bigger risk of being messed with by cheaters. Certainly, though, it would be harder to notice what is happening. The player is a .swf file and Action Script is a powerful and complex language... The Flash would already be there and could probably even be pre-set to do some nasty cheat months down the road.

I wonder if there could be a market for a known safe player whose checksum could be verified on submission etc.

[thebes]

Originally Posted by Star Man

Wait a sec,I'm a little confused.How much bandwidth (if any) does the average 1 minute flash clip use? Anyone?

This completely depends upon what bit rate it is encoded at. You should expect figures that are roughly in the same range as other video formats for a given quality.

One caveat, if you take a compressed file and encode it as a flv at or near the same bitrate as the original, you will lose quality... this is true of any lossy media format though. Its always best to encode to a lossy format from the best source you can.

[Star Man]

Originally Posted by thebes

This completely depends upon what bit rate it is encoded at. You should expect figures that are roughly in the same range as other video formats for a given quality.

One caveat, if you take a compressed file and encode it as a flv at or near the same bitrate as the original, you will lose quality... this is true of any lossy media format though. Its always best to encode to a lossy format from the best source you can.

Cool,thanks

[Ms Naughty]

List of info sites and flash software (for any newbies reading this thread)

Super - free software for converting video to flash
http://www.erightsoft.com/SUPER.html

Creating Streaming Videos - simple tutorial about embedding vids
http://www.free-video-hosting.net/creating-videos.php

Jeroen Wijering - blog of a guy with useful flash tutorials and scripts
http://www.jeroenwijering.com/?item=Embedding_Flash

Flash Video Tools - conversion software, more expensive
http://www.flash-video-mx.com/

Easy FLV - as mentioned above, cheaper
http://www.easyflv.com/

Another page on video encoding
http://www.mediacollege.com/adobe/flash/video/encoders/

After doing a bit of research I've found this tool for testing the security of Flash. It's free under the GNU license
https://www.owasp.org/index.php/Category:SWFIntruder
http://code.google.com/p/swfintruder/