I just got bitch slapped by Club-Xstream

[domweb]

OK. I am a little confused. Did I step on a landmine with content providers I didn't know about?

I am about to drop a grand at Club-Xtream, a content provider I have bought hundreds of dollars of content from in the past. I always had great service.

I wishlisted up about a thousand dollars and sent an email explaining that I was getting back into the adult biz since I had hired a law firm to be my custodian of 2257 records. I wanted to make sure that the content would match the following requirements from my lawyer:

- The date of original production of the depiction

- The title or identifying number of the depiction

- The legal name and birthdate of each performer.

- Any name ever used by the performer, including a maiden name, alias, nickname, stage name, or professional name.

- A legible scan of the performer's identification document. The scan must be no smaller than the original size of the document.

I get an email back saying they better not sell me anything because their 2257 docs might not be up to my lawyers specs.

And then...I got a scolding from Martin for thinking I could make any money in the adult biz because of my Yahoo Group list (shemalegrouplist.com). He claimed that those Groups mostly are stolen content.

Wahhhh?!?!?! I have been away for a few years but last time I checked lots of people maintained Yahoo and Google Group lists as traffic generators. And no content providers wanted their blood.

Besides all that...should I expect to get such flak for just trying to keep my 2257 records tidy? It doesn't seem like my lawyers demands are that harsh.

Am I going to get this from every Content Provider?

[nate]

Ah, yes. 2257 hard at work keeping honest people from making a living.

As for yahoo groups, just restrict posting so only you can post pics, otherwise you are liable to be running a group full of stolen content which hurts everyone and could get your group shut down for infringement.

And hopefully, if you are spending $1000 on content, you aren't using yahoo groups for anything but a feeder for multiple real web sites on a paid host.

Also, before spending money on content, look into sponsors that have free content. There is a lot more sponsor content available than there was when I first did adult sites 10 years ago.

[domweb]

Originally Posted by nate

And hopefully, if you are spending $1000 on content, you aren't using yahoo groups for anything but a feeder for multiple real web sites on a paid host.

That is what I have been using it for. I don't even run any Groups, just make the listing available and make sure my links are on as many Group Link pages as I can. I would do an occasional pic post when I added new content to my site and that generated decent traffic to my paysite.

I hardly invented the technique.

Maybe I just got Martin on a bad day. I have had those.

So, glasses high for Martin. 2257 sucks for everyone doing biz in the USA.

[Bill]

I don't know of any content provider that is going to give that much information, and jump thru hoops to please your lawyer.

Does anybody know of one that does? I'd be curious to hear about it.

---

I have never heard of a sponsor that gives out that kind of info on their content either.

---

And lesson learned - don't tell sponsors or providers about your surfer groups.

[domweb]

Originally Posted by Bill

I don't know of any content provider that is going to give that much information, and jump thru hoops to please your lawyer.

Does anybody know of one that does? I'd be curious to hear about it.

---

I have never heard of a sponsor that gives out that kind of info on their content either.

Woah. I started posting in the Newbie Questions section because I had been out of the adult website business for a few years and stuff changes fast. There are plenty of developments that have happened, so if I speak out of ignorance, will one of the more experienced webmasters please tell me.

If you are a new (or returning) webmaster and live or work in the USA you are not only REQUIRED to keep the records I mentioned in my earlier post, you are risking an ungodly amount of federal prison time if you don't. (I am aware that older websites and material have been grandfathered into the law in various ways. I am talking about the new stuff.)

The Federal Law is referred to as 2257 and here is a guide to compliance.

Tons of lawyer speak.

I hired a lawyer to sort it through and to maintain the records for me (that I gather, format and send to him) and they check it for legal compliance, give me a thumbs up and then keep it available for the Feds to inspect anytime they want to.

The list of info required by the Feds is included in the list of information that I was requesting from the content provider (with the possible exception of the size of the ID scan...I think my lawyer included that to prove due diligence to a court of law).

I would tell you the Law Group, but I don't want to be accused of spamming and frankly I just started working with these guys and cannot give an honest evaluation of their services yet...all seems good so far. If you want to know their name/URL private message me.

So.....

If in the future a Content Provider sells a US based webmaster content without providing the info mentioned earlier, the US webmaster is in legal jeopardy for using the content if the Feds come knocking and demand the 2257 records for review.

Seems like the Content Providers should get off their ass?

Some have. After Club-Xstream gave me attitude I hardly went away crying. I spent the rest of the day researching new Content Providers who seem to have some concept of what is expected.

So...Bill...here is the first link I found to a Content Providers mentioning 2257 and how they will provide the info you need:

http://webmasters.matrixcontent.com/...s/bill2257.php
(You will need a Matrix Content log-in to access the page).

But as I cruise around, I see only about 15 percent of active Content Providers seeming to even mention providing the correct documentation. Plenty of them mention the original 2257 regulations (back when the webmaster did not need to retain the actual records themselves). Few mention anything about supplying the updated documentation now required for US webmasters.

If that is what I have to deal with, fine. It takes more than legal hoops to jump through to keep me from making an honest buck.

But I beginning to wonder if nobody seems to care because most of the adult webmasters are now no longer based in the USA? Did Bush Jr made the frakkin thing so complicated that US webmasters now the minority in all porn sites operators?

[Ramster]

Originally Posted by domweb

I wanted to make sure that the content would match the following requirements from my lawyer:

- The date of original production of the depiction

- The title or identifying number of the depiction

- The legal name and birthdate of each performer.

- Any name ever used by the performer, including a maiden name, alias, nickname, stage name, or professional name.

- A legible scan of the performer's identification document. The scan must be no smaller than the original size of the document.

I get an email back saying they better not sell me anything because their 2257 docs might not be up to my lawyers specs.

Am I going to get this from every Content Provider?

Most if not all content providers supply most of these documents. I buy from Martin and most of the top content guys and they provide the usual:
-model release which shows the date of production
-legal name and birthdate
-a scan of the model holding her id clearly showing her date of birth

This proves to the government that the model IS 18 or older. That she WAS 18 or older at the time of production and the signed model release gives her consent.

I'm not sure what "title or identifying number of the depiction" but not a SINGLE content provider will provide you with "Any name ever used by the performer, including a maiden name, alias, nickname, stage name, or professional name"

You have any idea how many names these girls go through? They change names and aliases all the time. Not to mention webmasters "make up" names for some models all the time to create a web site promoting the model. There is no way for a content provider to know that info. Not even the top pornstar database sites may know all the names a model has used.

[domweb]

Originally Posted by Ramster

I'm not sure what "title or identifying number of the depiction" but not a SINGLE content provider will provide you with "Any name ever used by the performer, including a maiden name, alias, nickname, stage name, or professional name"

Title or Identifying number of the depiction is lawyers speak for the Name, SKU number or other method that the Content Provider uses to distinguish their products from each other. What name shows up on the Invoice is a good place to start.

Example: "Is this video file "Shemale Xtresspass 3" or this this "Lisa Loppers 1"?

Originally Posted by Ramster

You have any idea how many names these girls go through? They change names and aliases all the time. Not to mention webmasters "make up" names for some models all the time to create a web site promoting the model. There is no way for a content provider to know that info. Not even the top pornstar database sites may know all the names a model has used.

I totally agree with the difficulty in aggregating all the name information. I have hung out with more than a few strippers and adult entertainers.

However, any good Model Release Statement will include the name requirement right on the first or second page. This sort of thing has been around FOREVER, working into proof of age documentation long before there was an internet and the only place to see porn was Playboy and strip clubs.

Examples of two Adult Model Releases plucked off the first page for a Google Search of the term "adult model release form 2257":

Model Release from gmpass
Notice the requirements of:
- Legal Name
- Stage Name (if any)
- Alias (if any)
- Maiden Name
- Professional Name
- And two entries for Also Know as and one generic any other name.

Tanda Studios
Notice the requirements of:
- Legal Name
- Stage Name (if any)
- Alias (if any)
- Maiden Name
- Professional Name
- Also Know As

If the model signs his/her name to this document, that is a pretty good piece of armor in court. And if you are new to the business and the Content Provider doesn't have a Model Release Statement for you, run away fast.

It seems to me that maybe some Content Providers didn't gather this info back in the day. I am sorry for them.

But their bad luck and lack of foresight should not equal their customers going to jail.

So any competent adult model release should include this information.

[Ramster]

Originally Posted by domweb

However, any good Model Release Statement will include the name requirement right on the first or second page. This sort of thing has been around FOREVER, working into proof of age documentation long before there was an internet and the only place to see porn was Playboy and strip clubs.

Examples of two Adult Model Releases plucked off the first page for a Google Search of the term "adult model release form 2257":

Model Release from gmpass
Notice the requirements of:
- Legal Name
- Stage Name (if any)
- Alias (if any)
- Maiden Name
- Professional Name
- And two entries for Also Know as and one generic any other name.

If the model signs his/her name to this document, that is a pretty good piece of armor in court. And if you are new to the business and the Content Provider doesn't have a Model Release Statement for you, run away fast.

So any competent adult model release should include this information.

Model releases I've seen have exactly what you say but your breakdown above doesn't ask for that. It asks for EVERY alias, maiden name, stage names and the such.

Maybe you should clarify with Martin and other content providers what it is you expect to receive.

Example being "Jana Miartusova" who is also well known as "Nelli Hunter". But she can also be known under these aliases: Nella, Terry Lightspeed, Thereza Llove, Jana Mar

A model release might have her alias as Nelli Hunter rather than her real name (which many pornstar database sites have her listed under) but NONE of the other "aliases". What you are asking for from a content provider they cannot provide hense a reason why they tell you "buy somepleace else, we cannot provide what you need".

I'm not getting on you, just pointing out what you are asking for may be impossible. Noone could know every name, alias, etc of a model. They only know the model's name and the alias they WANT to be known as as she/he tells them as she/he signs the release form.

[domweb]

Originally Posted by Ramster

I'm not getting on you, just pointing out what you are asking for may be impossible. Noone could know every name, alias, etc of a model. They only know the model's name and the alias they WANT to be known as as she/he tells them as she/he signs the release form.

I agree Ramster. But in less than 24 hours I am buying content from a supplier who had no problem meeting my requests.

I think that a good faith effort that pulls together every known alias used by the models on a site is the last thing the Feds feel like wasting time trying to build a case against.

"Excuse me, defendant. You listed the six variation of the performer's name known to you, but we found a name she used in Padoqua, Ohio for a few weeks as a stripper you didn't include."

Some how that doesn't seem like what the root of the problem is.

I have a feeling I would have normally gotten the same great co-operation level from Club Xstream that I was used to if my group list didn't piss him off. If his is pissed about that there was plenty of motivation to tell me what I want is unreasonable.

Or I am fucked in the head. Either is possible.

Ah well. I have more content to purchase. Peace.

[Bill]

Who's providing you with all that?

Like Ram says, there's a standard set of info provided by pretty much all the content suppliers now.

But I have yet to buy from one that gave me everything your lawyer wants.

I suspect whoever says they are, is just making it up, or is pulling your leg, just saying yeah yeah while giving you the standard packet.

But I'd be curious to know of such a provider. And let us know if you get what your lawyer wants.

I don't think this clubxstream declining to sell you content with the requirement that it include your lawyer-list info has anything to do with your group.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by domweb

But I beginning to wonder if nobody seems to care because most of the adult webmasters are now no longer based in the USA? Did Bush Jr made the frakkin thing so complicated that US webmasters now the minority in all porn sites operators?

No, people mostly make a good faith attempt to comply, but ignore the parts of the law that impose impossible to fulfill burdens.

As soon as a secondary producer is harrassed, everybody will run for the hills.

But yes, the small us webmaster is indeed a dying breed. And bush 2257 definitely killed off quite a few, which was it's purpose.

[domweb]

Originally Posted by Bill

Who's providing you with all that?

Well...my first purchase was from Scarlett Content and I have received the material and it met all my lawyers specs so far. I bundled up the first test 2257 record and ran it through a dry run with my lawyer. They are reviewing it now.

As for the scan of the ID being at least the same size as the ID...why is anyone upset by that? If I can magnify the JPG, TIF or whatever photo of the ID and it's very legible I would call that good.

Five Start Content says that will deliver what I am asking for from it's website...but I haven't spoken with anyone at the site.

Adult Sex Content said they have a standard package, but also admitted they never hear of the name request.

Ounique says what I want is no problem.

Seriously guys. You are all talking about this like it's an impossible request and no webmaster would supply you with what I am asking for.

Seriously. It Is The Fucking Law if you are based in the USA and you are buying content produced in the last few years to have this information.

Maybe not precisely the way my lawyer wants it...but 99 percent dead on.

[Bill]

Originally Posted by domweb

Seriously guys. You are all talking about this like it's an impossible request and no webmaster would supply you with what I am asking for.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said I never heard of content providers providing that whole list. And asked you who does.

I rather like the thought of you putting the fear of the fed into the newbies and such. Keep it up.

Scarlett content? I had no idea they were shooting anything new - I thought that was all old stuff. Sure looked old, when I browsed their catalog. I wonder how they did the research to track down every possible name before or since.

I wonder if a model or a provider forgets a name it's "send a secondary producer to jail" time.

---

Adam Walsh had grandfathering?

But, Adam Walsh is a fucking obscure piece of legislation, I gather.

Might be fun to get some content providers and legal beagles discussing it.

[Ramster]

First off the only thing I brought up was the names and aliases issue.

Secondly... it is not an impossible request. Everything your lawyer asks for you get with every producer I buy from today. The only thing I brought up was all the names and aliases being impossible, no one could possibly know all the aliases a girl might be known by.

Based on who you mention I am pretty sure that club-xstream will meet your lawyers requirements too.

And no one said anything about being upset about the ID being a large scan. I've not seen one smaller yet, they are all large in size.

I will not buy from a producer that does not provide model IDs and a release form. Those 2 things give you everything you need. Names and aliases have nothing to do with 2257.

[domweb]

First off...the frustration is not directed at you, Bill or Ramster. I am just amazed that I walked away from the industry over this issue a few years ago and when I return so many folks look at me like I grew a new head when I start asking questions about keeping legal and 2257 requirements. This stuff should be second nature by now.

I am flustered at the overall lack of knowledge of something so fundamental to keeping your ass out of jail.

I live in the USA. We have 5% of the world's total population. We have 25% percent of the world's prison population. We LOVE locking people up.

Originally Posted by Ramster

Names and aliases have nothing to do with 2257.

I think the US government disagrees with you.

I quote the United States Department of Justice in the previously referenced 28 C.F.R. Part 75 SMALL BUSINESS COMPLIANCE GUIDE - Recordkeeping for Visual Depictions of Actual and Simulated Sexually Explicit Conduct.

Third Paragraph:

"Summary of Part 75’s Requirements Part 75 requires that, prior to producing a visual depiction of actual or simulated sexually explicit conduct, a primary producer must examine a government-issued picture identification card belonging to each performer in the visual depiction that demonstrates that the performer is 18 years old or older. The primary producer must then record the legal name, any aliases, and the date of birth of the performer, record the date of production of the depiction, and make a copy of the picture identification card. Once production is complete, a copy of the visual depiction must be maintained along with these records. All information on a performer may be redacted other than the name, date of birth, and information that identifies the type and validity of the picture identification card (e.g., drivers license or passport number). All of the primary producer’s records for all its visual depictions must also be cross-referenced by name and alias of the performers. If a secondary producer produces a copy of the visual depiction, the secondary producer must obtain from the primary producer the records associated with that depiction."

Screw it. I am going to make a coffee and a toke. We Shall Overcome.

P.S. The frustration about the ID size thing was unintended bleed over from discussions I was having with Content Providers. That was mis-posted. Sorry Ramster.

[domweb]

Originally Posted by Bill

I rather like the thought of you putting the fear of the fed into the newbies and such. Keep it up.

Sometimes I think the only thing that will do that is when folks start getting arrested. *sigh*

I am not worried about the pro's. They have been around, made some bank and lawyered up if they know what they are doing.

It's the guy or girl who recently got into porn and thought that buying X amount of content at that great sale was a smart move without understanding the record keeping requirements.

Ah well. No one said success was easy. I just gotta focus on keeping myself legal and wait to see if the hammer falls.

[Ramster]

Originally Posted by domweb

I think the US government disagrees with you.

My mistake, you are right about that. Any normal model release will have her name and alias she uses/wants to use.

I would think the government is expecting you to list the aliases YOU are using on your sites and urls. I doubt they could hardly expect you to know what every guy in the world is using her as an alias.

And no worries, I can understand your frustration being in the US and not wanting to go to jail. I am in Canada and I abide by the law regardless.

[domweb]

I think you are right about what they expect. I think a diligent effort to gather and crossreference the names/aliases to specific pics or video content is what they expect. I don't think they would tolerate unrecorded URL addresses, models without proper IDs, etc.

'I think' is always a horrible defense in court, but the Holy Fury of the Right Wing is no longer in the Justice Department to fan the flames of Moral Purity.

I am not a lawyer but it all seems to come down to the following:

If you have a picture or video file on the internet of an adult nature for the purposes of profit, you better have a cross referenced database that tracks all the model's content and maintains all necessary ID files and can pull up for a Federal investigator information all that info at a snap.

If the Investigator points to a pic or video on the screen, you had better be able to produce: all the actor's real names/aliases, dates of birth, date of production of content, ID scans/pics and any URL address or others web address that you are serving that photo set or video to.

That's it in a rough nutshell. But I am no lawyer. Thats why I pay one to review my records. It takes less money than you think.

By the way Ramster, my father emigrated from Canada to the US. I love the place. I might retire there yet! Probably a good idea that you follow the 2257 rules anyway...never know when you might want to sell the whole thing to a rich American.

Long may the Maple Leaf wave to remind the Bald Eagle that there are all kinds of ways to run a successful democracy.

[Allfetish]

Yahoo groups aren't really a big deal. I think he is nit picking. True story, one guy laughed at me in the distant past when I showed him my yahoo group.... He said that he wasn't going to trade with a yahoo group.

....then a while later I noticed he was spamming my groups with his links and begging me to approve the messages. He didn't realize owned those groups too.

There is some stolen content but few people know about it. For starters yahoo hides most of the adult groups behind a "firewall" that a user must pass into before adult results are returned n search. There are pictures here and there, but not very much as a rule. Most of the "files" sections where movies are, are just filled with spam. And the clips are usually tiny as yahoo does not allow much.

The guy was just being bitter and petty. Yahoo groups are small potatoes compared to illegal tubes and rapidshare. I'd just give hm the bird and move on to another content provider. There are many content providers starving right now and they'd love someone who would purchase $1000 worth of content from them.

[Allfetish]

BTW, the requirement to get a copy of the photo ID is likely excessive. At best you might want to ask the sponsor to give you a written declaration that they have a copy of the photo ID on file for each performer. rather than asking for a copy. Many won't for privacy reasons.

Disclaimer: I AM a lawyer and you should listen to my advice. (yeah right!)

[dawnkitty]

Club-Xtream also told me to go elsewhere when I was about to buy content, because he doesnt sell to "phone sex workers". I have never had someone refuse my money before. He said "phone sex workers" especially "Niteflirters" (which I am not even one of those) dont know how to follow rules lol

So yes, just go somewhere else who appreciates your business ( I see you already have) Bringing up your yahoo group site ,,,, it should not even have been mentioned as it has nothing to do with it, just like him bringing up my phone sex business, which he only "assumed" is why I was buying the content, had nothing to do with anything.

Originally Posted by Allfetish

Yahoo groups aren't really a big deal. I think he is nit picking.

The guy was just being bitter and petty. Yahoo groups are small potatoes compared to illegal tubes and rapidshare. I'd just give hm the bird and move on to another content provider. There are many content providers starving right now and they'd love someone who would purchase $1000 worth of content from them.

[domweb]

It is nice to know the porn content business is so profitable for him that Club X can afford to turn down business so regularly. (Maybe I am approaching this business from the wrong angle?)

It reminds me of the Seinfield soup nazi, "No Soup for You!"

Well, he may have had good soup (nice pics), but he is not the only dude selling it. I have spent the first five hundred with a few new providers and plan another five to six hundred in buys in the next few days with other new suppliers I have developed relationships with since. (Small potatoes for many, but I am half Irish and will take my potatoes as I can get them).

I love working with serious people who know how to do their jobs well. Polite business relationships where they email me an offer to HELP in any way they can

In the end, I have widened my supplier base and spent the time to select my content from an even bigger pool.

And frankly Yahoo Groups was influential enough to get me my first several sales when I got into the biz, so I ain't giving up on them now. Anyone who thinks that a Group Surfer is just stealing porn has a fundamental confusion about them. It's easier to get free content from a Link List or a TGP than Yahoo Groups. But people love the hunt. And if the hunters didn't buy memberships, few adult webmasters would bother with them.

But what do I know? I am not so successful I can tell people I wont sell to them.

BTW, I am obviously undereducated. I assume a "Niteflirter" is a girl/guy who stays on the line with customers on phone chat lines at night to tease them into staying on a few more minutes? (Pulled that our of the air).

How many rules involving content does such a person have to follow? And why not sell to 'phone sex workers'? Afraid the spoken word is going to replace pictures and video in peoples masturbation library? That is kinda like attacking FM radio because no one will buy CDs anymore.

(The RIAA actually sued to suppress FM radio when it first came out...they said the quality was so good no one would buy vinyl records. The RIAA is obviously very wise.)

[dawnkitty]

LOL at "It reminds me of the Seinfield soup nazi, "No Soup for You!" hahhaa, love it

"Niteflirters" , a phone sex company called Niteflirt, therefore he calls those who work there Niteflirters.

Alot, I would say most, phone sex girls use content instead of their real photos for various reasons, or they may use their real photos and then create other characters using content.

Some phone sex girls are very business savvy also and may buy content for other reasons.

[Lucky_Martin]

I was not planning to bother to reply, but when you keep trying to make me look as negative as you can, I feel I should add a few words as well.

Here is my reply to you again which was the reason for me to suggest you seek your business elsewhere:
Looking at the demands from your lawyer, I think we better not deliver you our shemale sets.
We do have ids and releaseforms of all models that we sell in our store,
but I can not guarantee that they filled out the releaseforms the way your lawyer requests.
For example, they always fill out their stagename but that does not mean they have not used other names in the past.
Then I know for sure that alot of the scans or images we have of the ID's are smaller than the original,
so that would be another item your lawyer would not like.

I mentioned your list of free yahoogroups as a remark, not as the reason, but you prefer to make it look that way.
In your reply you never mentioned you could alter the size of the ID's to meet your lawyer's demands, you only replied to my remark about your yahoogroups.

So you didn't catch me on a bad day, I just felt we could not meet your lawyers demands and I couldn't care less if you list hundreds of free yahoogroups if you feel they help you to make more money in this industry.
I just know that there are better sites to link to which would make you more money.

Martin
Club-Xstream

[Lucky_Martin]

Dawnkitty,

We do not sell to Niteflirters because after dealing with a couple of them who were reselling the images without Niteflirt being very cooperative, the chargebacks some of them made because they forgot they bought content and didn't recognize the overseas transfer from their cc-statement, the times they fail to read the rules and use a free emailaccount anyway, I just felt it would my life a whole lot easier to just have them buy somewhere else.
So it's not because of arrogance that I would not want your business, but because of the many bad experiences I had with Niteflirters (and other PSO's) in the past.
When they are costing you more money, time and effort than they are bringing you, then the choice is very easy.


Martin
Club-Xstream