New free site format (version 1.5)

[LD]

Originally Posted by plateman

lets face it this biz right now is full of a lot of uncertainty and i feel a lot of sites will go offline and a lot will give up

Hasn't it always been? You don't see a lot of walk-in adult theaters anymore...at least not around here.

Google comes up a lot in these threads, and I suppose G is a huge consideration in this business. But if everything is tied to G, then doesn't that make it even more uncertain? Hell, we don't even know how G works, and they are subject to change tomorrow if they feel like it.

Has anyone branded a site in such a way that Google is secondary, and would do well regardless of Google? Is it possible for a linklist to do that? It just seems to me that 100 uniques a day from people who come to your site because they like it and want to buy something is much better than 10,000 uniques a day from people who type "free porn" into a search engine.

I'm a little new at this and my be in dreamland here, but are we really that Google dependant? That is what Kit seems to imply.

[Greenguy]

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

...Again, the suggestions don't deviate very far from the standard free site, but a thread created to ask which lists would accept them was treated as spam and moved....

The thread was moved because I believe that Link Lists & Free Sites, as defined by most members of this board, contain warning pages. Kit's v1.5 has ELIMINATED the warning page:
"There is no reason to keep warning page if you add special meta tags to HTML code"

I can honestly say that if ANYONE posted what Kit did - PK, Richard, DDave, Murray, Cleo, Raw Alex, Emerald, Linkster, mb, etc - ANYONE - I would have reacted in the same manner, because I am a huge supported of the warning page concept as far as Free Sites & Link Lists go.

You keep thinking this is an anti-Kit thing - and I have admitted that part of my 1st reply was ego driven. And we all know there is this "Greenguy hates Russians" mentality on Master-X. None of that applies to the core of my argument against this - I like warning pages.

Originally Posted by Useless Warrior

...The free sites that I want to build in the immediate future won't have a main page. There will be an index with a warning, either a table or sidebar of recips, and 2-3 galleries, each linked-to from the index by a thumb and text link. But I assume that they won't be listed by many of the bigger link lists since they aren't a traditional free site. Of course, I can't ask who would be willing to accept them in this forum, because that's apparently somehow threatening to the traditionalists.

I can see where you're coming from, but I do honestly think that if you had started that thread, I'd have left it here because it does have the warning page involved (and please feel free to start it if you wish)

Hell, Bill's been building sites like that for YEARS - they do have a main page, but the galleries are clearly linked right off the warning page.

(and yes, I typed all that up before I read the rest of the DDave & UW posts, which is why it looks kinda redundant)

Originally Posted by LowryBigwood

Also, IMHO if you standardize sites in such a way that has been described, you may make them easy targets for the search engines. Why doesn't each LL decide what they want to list instead of everyone trying to conform to one set of rules? Back in the day, this may have worked out well...

Because we're learned that when one asshole (me) changes his rules, people build sites to fit them. Example: I change to 12 pics/page & Cleo stays at 10. Preacher build a Free Site & wants to submit to both, so he puts 12 pics/page. Cleo's listings are changed by default. The real way to do it to make everything appear "different" is via design & coding.

[Greenguy]

Let me sum all this up, because I think this is taking up way to much of everyone's time.

I did not read what Kit posted as something that was up for discussion. I read it that he & the people over at Master-X were going to change how Free Sites are laid out. The discussion about this had already taken place on the other board, as Kit posted a link to 200+ posts on the topic.

Yes, my ego tells me that anything to do with Link Lists & Free Sites should be discussed on this board & involve myself as well as many others. Call me what you want, but I think that 11+ years doing this & only knowing of about 5 other people doing what I do for longer (months longer than me, not years) entitles me to be involved in a discussion like this from the beginning & not 9 thread pages into it.

Based on those 2 things, hopefully people can see what I was so fucking angry. If not, then so be it - call me an asshole

The 2nd part of this is Kit's Free Site v2.0, which is basically this v1.5 with galleries added to it. This is a hub. It's a fake TGP. It's a list of your own galleries where you trade links with other people. This is not something new. This is an existing marketing method that this board, especially MrMaryLou & On The Bench, have preached for the last 5 years.

Now, had Kit come in here & stated that he wanted to list the hubs of webmasters that fit into a list of rules, no one would have complained a bit. In fact, people would have jumped for joy, because everyone building Free Sites probably has pages like v2.0 sitting on their servers.

***

Even though I think the presentation of v1.5 & v2.0 has sucked ass, I think everyone can admit that without it, this big open discussion would not have taken place (or at least pushed the discussion wide open)

I would ask that Useless get the ball rolling on Link Lists that will consider accepting Free Sites with a warning page that links to 2 or 3 gallery pages (no main page) Let's call them v1.75 Free Sites (or whatever the fuck you want to call them).

I'd also invite Kit to start a thread about trading links with hubs over in the Link & Traffic Trading forum.

[Useless]

Originally Posted by Greenie

Let's call them v1.75 Free Sites (or whatever the fuck you want to call them).

I was thinking v1.69. It has a more sexy ring to it.

[Greenguy]

<angry and typing>STOP MAKING FUN OF KIT AND HIS FREE SITE CONCEPT</angry and typing>

dib dib

[Cleo]

Bring back pic posts...

[skopintsev]

Let's take into account also free site submitters. For example I had most of sales from non index pages. One of the biggest point of FS concept is surfer is thinking he's on paysite. New cooncept will make surfers more "automatized" => less sales. Of coruse, that it is good idea something to change on old concept. My idea is, let's keep old concept and prefer also these rules:

1) All sites in the same directory + just one subdir - for example http://www.abc.com/abc/index.htm ; http://www.abc.com/abc/main.htm etc.

2) No more that 50 free sites for one domain

3) Strictly no mirrors

[CaptainJSparrow]

I would like to see more room for creativity. I'd like to see more flexibility rather than sticking to the usual 4 pages format. More specifically -

1. I'd like to see room for freesites that have more than one type of content. A mix of stories, pics and movies.

2. I'd like to see room for freesites with more galleries and fewer pics/movies per gallery.

3. I'd like to be able to have more than 3 outgoing links on a gallery page, or on any page for that matter. I'm not talking about banner farms or even link farms with some content at the bottom of the page. I'm talking about being able to highlight words in the text (in positions and context where they won't be blind links) and have some more leeway with text links, while retaining 3 blocks of ads per page (3 blocks but not 3 links).

4. I'd like to see freesites where some of the pages can have full-sized images and/or embedded flash movies rather than thumbnails.

5. Last but not least, I'd love to see more flexibility in recirocal linking. Could be links back from the root of the domain or from a links page in the FS, but not necessarily on the main or index page. If that links page was linked to from every page on the FS, for example, it may get just as much link juice and traffic as a table on the index page, and it would mean we don't do direct reciprocals either. Just a thought, and we might be able to come up with more creative ways.

Combining a warning page with a link straight to the galleries sounds fine to me as well. More links on the warning page are fine too.


I think that Tigermom summed it up quite well in the quote above.

I'd love to see submitters get more creative. It seems that most free site builders build the exact same type of sites because Link Lists have dictated exactly how to build those sites. The free site builders are scared to be creative for fear of all their work being for naught because they won't get listed.

As Link List owners I think that we should encourage creativity instead of stifling it. I like Tigermom's idea of a mix of pics, movies, and stories. More galleries and flexible reciprocal linking also sound like good ideas to me.

Not to change the focus of Kit's thread too much, but do any of you have positive, creative ideas that you'd care to share about how we can change things up a bit?

[Greenguy]

Just a thought that ran thru my brain over the weekend:

Those of you that wish to try out 1.5 was well as regular free sites can do so by creating a standard free site PLUS a 1.5 entrance page.

This way, you can get traffic from everyone

[Mr Spock]

Originally Posted by Greenie

Just a thought that ran thru my brain over the weekend:

Those of you that wish to try out 1.5 was well as regular free sites can do so by creating a standard free site PLUS a 1.5 entrance page.

This way, you can get traffic from everyone

Also allow one to analyze where traffic and sales are coming from

[LD]

I wonder if you could submit the new version 1.5 AND the traditional version to the same list...hmmm

[faxxaff]

I like the idea of v 1.75 as it keeps up the warning page and makes the visit an easier experience for the surfers. Additionally all content pages will be crawled and indexed by the SE bots as they usually don't dig any deeper than the second page. It should improve SE traffic a lot!

[Greenguy]

Back when a warning page was actually a warning page and not a FPA with 20 multi-colored recip tables & 2 small lines of warning text, the current Free Site structure made MUCH more sense.

Maybe we need to go back to that.....

[stuveltje]

Originally Posted by Greenie

Back when a warning page was actually a warning page and not a FPA with 20 multi-colored recip tables & 2 small lines of warning text, the current Free Site structure made MUCH more sense.

Maybe we need to go back to that.....

I vote for that one! For real i hate that things change.........and i wont get along with changes.....Stu<----and changing things wont work, specialy not with reviewing, i am old fashioned
Btw alot who probably readed the thread from kit about the 1.5 didnt understand it either, i have seen some very strange free sites submitted at the linksites i review for, they probably had to be the new 1.5 sites, they where all an instand "REJECT".
I go for the old rules, so maxium of 16 linkbacks to other linksites, only
3 links to other stuff, yes i make exceptions, but thats only a small group, so yeah i have definitly problems with new conceptions, My bosses lett me deside.....i have great bosses
I cant see a benefit of 30 linkbacks to linksites, oke maybe for the linksites but not for the surfers, so it would be a an ses thing, but i like to relay on the surfers, keep them happy with easy sites, they will come back, we all know ses can fuck you every month, i say go for the surfers and not for the ses.
I probably say something wrong here in english but i know what i mean....we need the surfers to come back, so give them what they want, easy to navigate free sites, dont make them think what to click...to many choises are never good

[Linkster]

Originally Posted by Greenie

Back when a warning page was actually a warning page and not a FPA with 20 multi-colored recip tables & 2 small lines of warning text, the current Free Site structure made MUCH more sense.

Maybe we need to go back to that.....

I would be very happy with that as that is exactly what the SE's are looking for when they bot you - these free sites with graphics and looking like a hosted tgp gallery template is a waste of the submitters time both from the SEO and the SALES standpoints - they just dont sell like a good old free site that uses a small amount of very targetted text and maybe one little banner - and the less recips the better

As far as the recips - I would propose two things:

1. First off the LLs have to figure out that the linking back to categories is probably at least 50% (if not more) of the problem you are having getting good listings in Google - over the last 1 1/2 years they have gotten very good at figuring out that those recips and the category linking are "schemes" to build popularity - and have added quite a bit to the algorithm to deal with them

2. No more than 8-10 good looking recips on a warning page - the mirror issue isnt really an issue when it comes to SE's for submitters - you will still get the best version listed and yes the other mirrors will be ignored - for LLs - it just means that whoever is on that mirror picked by Google or other SE gets the pass-through PR(if there ever is any given to the free site) - and the rest just get what the recips were originally intended for which is a click or two every week or so to the LL from a surfer.

This isnt rocket science - its "what is good for the surfer" and that means that it becomes "what is good for the LL" - and by default - what is good for the submitter in the long run
Too many people are over-analyzing free sites and over-reacting to what they think is the newest "trend/fad" - keep in the back of your mind that just because something works great for TGPs/MGPs doesnt neccesarily mean its going to be good for Free Sites

No wonder so many submitters are complaining about not being able to make sales on free sites - they are treating them like something that they see in the TGP world - its a completely different animal and the sooner a submitter learns that - the sooner they will start making some good money


added : from a LL owner point of view Id also be happier than pigshit if we could all gather together and decide to get rid of these frigging category trades or at least drop them down to no more than 8-10 max - yeah - there would be a few LLs that would be losing some PR (who cares) - but they arent getting much benefit now - if any - and it sure wouldnt affect their SE listings (since they dont have any)

[Bill]

I'd be happy to experiment with more variation in designs, if I thought I wouldn't get hassled for it.

There was a time when linklists enforced standardization pretty agressively. That created a market situation where every freesite builder had to try to build the optimum site within fairly narrow parameters. That kind of market force rewards a standardized look and feel.

Then, all the linklists added 'free hosted sites', which used graphic elements and designs that forced a new, semi-covert standard on freesite design onto builders.

Not only were we competing with each other, we were competing with fancier graphic sites, without recips, whose sales we were losing.

I'd be happy to reduce the number of recips on a site - but, if I do so when others don't, they pick up the "long tail" of little linklist traffic - which means I'm cutting my own throat (since i don't build mirrors at all anymore).

[Sven800]

I would be more than happy to get rid of all the category recips on Free Sites I submit. For one it would make things easier on me - No more figuring out if my gallery belongs in "Lesbian-Teen", "Teens w/ Toys", "Teen Softcore" or "Nude Teens".

[SheepGuy]

Agree with most of your post, but I'm not crazy about

Originally Posted by Linkster

added : from a LL owner point of view Id also be happier than pigshit if we could all gather together and decide to get rid of these frigging category trades or at least drop them down to no more than 8-10 max - yeah - there would be a few LLs that would be losing some PR (who cares) - but they arent getting much benefit now - if any - and it sure wouldnt affect their SE listings (since they dont have any)

I'm not sure where my SE spots come from, but I have some good ones for cat pages and I wouldn't want to screw them up by taking down cat trades just in case they have something to do with it.
I don't ask for or even want category recips on submissions though.

[Linkster]

Sven - you would still want to know what category to submit to - of course that would depend on whether you are really targetting a specific niche to try to get sales from those interested surfers - or just throwing a free site up to see if it gets any sales

Sheepguy - Id be willing to bet that the cat pages you are doing best with have a combo on them that has the least amount of cat trades (which is why I thought the option of leaving the worthwhile ones up was an option) and a good selection of targetted text on the other sites you have listed - if youre up for it I can show you privately what I mean (always free of course since Im totally against anyone charging for knowledge - especially for SEO)

[Sven800]

Originally Posted by Linkster

Sven - you would still want to know what category to submit to - of course that would depend on whether you are really targetting a specific niche to try to get sales from those interested surfers - or just throwing a free site up to see if it gets any sales

True, but I could build a file with Teen recips, and use it for FS's promoting both hardcore, softcore & lesbian teens.

Basically I am lazy I hate it when i have to go hunting for the correct cat. link each time I change sponsors.

[SheepGuy]

Originally Posted by Linkster

Sheepguy - Id be willing to bet that the cat pages you are doing best with have a combo on them that has the least amount of cat trades (which is why I thought the option of leaving the worthwhile ones up was an option) and a good selection of targetted text on the other sites you have listed - if youre up for it I can show you privately what I mean (always free of course since Im totally against anyone charging for knowledge - especially for SEO)

You're right and you'd win that bet
I am doing better keyword-wise with pages I have less trades on. Damn, never occurred to me that more trades were not necessarily a good thing.
I'm definitely up for it and I'll drop you a PM tomorrow. SEO is not something I've worked on, just been lucky with for the most part, and it's very kind of you to offer advice.
Thanks!

[alvarez]

I have few top positions on Google ( about 10k from Google on my site )
All what you need is:

1 links to your site from free sites
2. daily update on your site

that's it

[Buncha]

I don't run a LL, so this is probably a stupid idea. But here goes:

What if the recips were moved from the index page to the galleries. Each gallery could have 8-12 recips. So if you wanted to submit to 36 LL, your FS would have 3 galleries with 12 recips on each. There would be no need to build multiple FS, and your index page wouldn't look like a linkfarm.

I can understand LL owners would want an index link because that page has the most surfers. But if the traffic from all 36 LL was directed at one FS (instead of multiple FS), there would be more surfers altogether on that site. And I think that once the surfers have seen the galleries, most of them are ready to visit other free porn sites.

I'm sure there are numerous reason why this wouldn't work. But I just thought I'd throw it out there.