Cheating is 1000% more than a year ago?

[Alphawolf]

Granted, MML's quote was pulled from the TGP forum, but I think is part of the bigger picture.

Originally posted by MrMaryLou
Its not a matter of kissing ass its just a matter of trust the cheating factor is a 1000% higher that it was say a year ago :(

I know MML is off to Buffalo, but for those who have been around a while, why is the cheating factor 1000% higher than around a year ago?

What is the biggest abuse by people overall?

What factors over the past year or so has made the adult industry spawn so much more cheating?

[Surfn]

Tons of new so called webmasters trying to make instant cash by any means possible. |lightsabe

[Cleo]

Worst that I have ever seen it.

I would say that in less then a year just about all decent sources of traffic will require a partner account.

[Alphawolf]

Surfn,

So, it's not people who were already in the biz, but newbies?

Bad economy = more people looking for a quick buck I suppose.

[Surfn]

Originally posted by Alphawolf
Surfn,

So, it's not people who were already in the biz, but newbies?

Bad economy = more people looking for a quick buck I suppose. For the most part. However, you also have "some" established webmasters who think their portion of the pie should be bigger. |raygun|

[Cleo]

Looking at my admin I would say that it is mostly from the former U.S.S.R. countries.

I think it is due to the mind set of having to work around the system in order to succeed.

[Linkster]

In addition to the reasons already posted, there is also a proliferation of new sponsors who think that giving tools to their WMs to cheat with is a good course of business - along with the advent of hosted galleries, loads more sponsor content and sponsors free hosts that are all part of the expansion of sponsors trying to also get their bigger piece of the pie - but have led to a lot of WMs that are being considered cheats because they've been misled by the sponsor.

Remember that the sponsors think it terms of quantity - whereas most of the LLs and TGPs think in terms of quality - and it brings about a large conflict

[Greenguy]

I don't think I'm adding 1/3rd of the sites submitted to me - too many scammers or uneducated webmasters. The bad part is that you can't really tell one from the other :(

[kristian]

The problem is the ease of access to our industry, inherent anonymity, and the mindset of webmasters who are not in this for the long haul. Those are honestly the problems.

My own 10 year old daughter can build websites remarkably well. She recently even installed a forum script! Since getting into the industry is so easy, it's only natural that we're getting swamped by new entrants. Since they're not career adult webmasters, they have no fear in breaking the rules.

Tightening legislation will cut down their numbers, but - just like every industry sector - they'll never go away.

[kristian]

LOL I just re-read my post. I don't mean my daughter makes ADULT sites! They do web design in school :)

[Ramster]

I hate to single out any area of the world but whenever I suspect something and do a whois it is more than 75% of the time it's a russian webmaster. Many times they are not even cheating (meaning redirecting) but submitting under 6 different names using 6 different emails and domains.

As the internet reaches more areas of the world where $1000 US will provide a good living to people not paying taxes on that money it will only get worse. :(

Getting to the question of abuse overall? It's submitting under different names and emails constantly for link lists. For TGPs I bet it is redirecting for sure.

[Cleo]

Originally posted by kristian
My own 10 year old daughter can build websites remarkably well.
I'm going on month two of cleaning up a paysite done over six years using FrontPage. I only have six gigs worth of files to go. LOL

Just because you have access to the tools and can make them do something doesn't mean you will build anything but a big ugly mess of crap.

[kristian]

Originally posted by Cleo
I'm going on month two of cleaning up a paysite done over six years using FrontPage. I only have six gigs worth of files to go. LOL

Just because you have access to the tools and can make them do something doesn't mean you will build anything but a big ugly mess of crap.

Actually she's taught html and uses notepad.

[Cleo]

I look forward to getting websites from her then when she is of age. :D

[kristian]

Originally posted by Cleo
I look forward to getting websites from her then when she is of age. :D

Cleo...whether you know it or not, your last two comments have truly insulted me. You might want to think about it and apologise.

[Opti]

Originally posted by kristian
Cleo...whether you know it or not, your last two comments have truly insulted me. You might want to think about it and apologise.


It didn't come across as badly to an outside observer as it may have done to you Dad ;-)

(but I do understand, being a dad myself)

[Cleo]

Dude chill, no one is insulting you or her.

First I was not talking about you or her when I was bitching about people who build crap. You are the one that felt you needed to brag about your daughter's coding skills.

Actually I was complementing you and your daughter that you had taught her how to code by hand so I would welcome submits from her if she was old enough to work in this industry. That is unless you see something wrong with working in this industry when she is old enough.

[Alphawolf]

Wow. 1/3rd of all basic free sites submitted don't get accepted?

Is this pretty much other list owner's experience? 1/3rd is just crap.

More internet access in countries where survival is all that counts.

A couple years ago my friend told me they just got an Internet Cafe in Croatia, but it was still sort of expensive.

I wonder how many world wide only have an Internet cafe to use and submit sites? I'm sure they'd use auto submitters if they are paying per hour to use a computer and shitty Internet connection.

Are there many more 'make money quick' sponsors now compared to say 2 years ago?

Also, I think people in general view the Internet and Adult in particular as 'quick easy money'.

It's not rocket science, but there is a lot of terminology to learn and effort in understanding what those terms mean.

God knows there are enough webmaster boards and sites that can help anyone if they had an ounce of true interest. |sad|

[kristian]

Originally posted by Cleo
Dude chill, no one is insulting you or her.

First I was not talking about you or her when I was bitching about people who build crap. You are the one that felt you needed to brag about your daughter's coding skills.

Actually I was complementing you and your daughter that you had taught her how to code by hand so I would welcome submits from her if she was old enough to work in this industry. That is unless you see something wrong with working in this industry when she is old enough.

Cleo, you're not a mother. Unfortunately, that makes it impossible for you to understand how your comments would be taken by a parent.

I have nothing against the industry. However, it is never a Dad's dream to see his 10 year old girl work in the porn industry, submitting free sites. Again, only a parent could understand.

Telling me to "chill" and making out that I have somethign against adult webmasters is clearly an attempt to make me look bad. Well, Cleo, that's very unfair.

I saw this thread. Thought I'd contribute. I wanted to make a point that if my daughter can build websites, then that means 100,000s can also make them (hence the industry problem).

Not being a parent yourself, you made some quite aweful comments. The thing for you to do would simply have been to understood my point-of-view (pointed out by opti) and said "sorry".

I'm also a little offended that you can speak to me in such an off-hand manner. I thought we were friends.

Nevermind.

[Tommy]

1 of the reasons I think you guys are seeing in increase in cheaters is because the bigger sites are doing a better job of gettin rid of them or blocking them

I think as more sites move over to paid submits its gonna get a lot worse for the sites that dont charge

[Cleo]

Originally posted by Alphawolf
Wow. 1/3rd of all basic free sites submitted don't get accepted?

Is this pretty much other list owner's experience? 1/3rd is just crap.
About the same here. At one time I tried to help submitters who submitted bad sites. Now I just add them to my ban lists after a few times. I ban people each day, sometimes with each batch of reviews yet they just keep on coming in more each day. This is not the way to run a link list, it is just hurting everyone. This is why I don't see public submits staying open at many places that much longer.

[Alphawolf]

With what Tommy stated...

How many of you plan to go with paid submissions?

[Alphawolf]

Originally posted by Cleo
I look forward to getting websites from her then when she is of age. :D

Cleo, I think kristian could have taken the big smiley as pure sarcasm as opposed to an actual big smile.

It's easy to get misunderstanding in the online environment.

There is no tone of voice and people will read into things even when there was nothing intended.

|sad|

[kristian]

Originally posted by Alphawolf
Cleo, I think kristian could have taken the big smiley as pure sarcasm as opposed to an actual big smile.

It's easy to get misunderstanding in the online environment.

There is no tone of voice and people will read into things even when there was nothing intended.

|sad|

LOL I should have known I would be in the wrong. I give up! LOL

[Cleo]

That is where you and I are different kristian, I see nothing wrong with working in the porn industry. If I had a child I would have no problem with them working in this industry when they were old enough and this is what they wanted to do. Personally I think being able to set one's own hours and stay at home with family is a very good business to be in.

So let's not hijack this thread because my values are different then yours and just leave it as we have different views of life. I admit that the color of the sky is a bit different color where I live. Most of my friends have children and most of my friends are either same sex couples, trannies, strippers or sex workers so regular family values just don't fit very well.

As far as going to paid submit is is something that I see coming and will just go with the flow after a few of the major lists do.

[kristian]

Originally posted by Cleo
That is where you and I are different kristian, I see nothing wrong with working in the porn industry. If I had a child I would have no problem with them working in this industry when they were old enough and this is what they wanted to do. Personally I think being able to set one's own hours and stay at home with family is a very good business to be in.

So let's not hijack this thread because my values are different then yours and just leave it as we have different views of life. I admit that the color of the sky is a bit different color where I live. Most of my friends have children and most of my friends are either same sex couples, trannies, strippers or sex workers so regular family values just don't fit very well.

As far as going to paid submit is is something that I see coming and will just go with the flow after a few of the major lists do.

Fair enough. I understand now.

I'll just say a couple more things.

The sky is the same colour in the UK (although I think I understand what you mean). :)

I agree about the porn lifestyle. I was lucky enough to retire from my first career by the time I turned 25. Now I'm enjoying carving out a new career in porn. However, I'd be willing to bet your own mother never wanted to see her daughter pimp hookers from a brothel, and go on to peddle internet porn. As I said, you'd need to be a parent to understand this, and how your comments (despite tone) could be construed as offensive.

That's all :)

[Tommy]

I have spoken with a large tgp that is charging

he told me that in a short time it has turned in to his largest source of income

I am working on it and will be charging NEW submiters very shortly

[Surfn]

Originally posted by Alphawolf
With what Tommy stated...

How many of you plan to go with paid submissions? I only have 2 traffic pumps open to the public. When I get enough trusted submitters those will be private.

[Opti]

Originally posted by Tommy
I have spoken with a large tgp that is charging

he told me that in a short time it has turned in to his largest source of income

I am working on it and will be charging NEW submiters very shortly


Not many linklists have the hits for each new site to justify taking only paid inclusions.

I could see "cartels" of linklists banding together to allow common paid partnership accounts though.

If someone like Tommy sets up their paid inclusion program first, and does it in such a way that all the medium sized linksites could participate and earn revenue via the program.. I could see them tieing up the market nicely right now :)

[Tommy]

it would have to sort of be set up like a avs model

lots of sites selling memberships at a fixed price and getting paid for their memberships that they sold

1 database of passwords that allow submits to all particpating sites

[Alphawolf]

A revshare program for LL's? Man.

What % of submissions would stop submitting if you were paid inclusion only?

Would this potentially slow down the amount of NEW sites you list, and your bookmark surfers start to look elsewhere?

As a newbie this sorta sucks for me, but I'd understand why the bigger LL's do it.

And if paid submissions will mean less NEW slots then the entry fee should garner a bit more traffic with fewer listings.

That's a win-win situation...for those who can afford it.

[Alphawolf]

Originally posted by Tommy
it would have to sort of be set up like a avs model

lots of sites selling memberships at a fixed price and getting paid for their memberships that they sold

1 database of passwords that allow submits to all particpating sites

Yeah- I was going to ask about something like that. If multiple lists go at it alone some may get left out of the loop.

If the top traffic lists could get together and streamline all submissions to a single place to get links in multiple LL's that would be very cool.

[D-man]

Originally posted by Greenguy
I don't think I'm adding 1/3rd of the sites submitted to me - too many scammers or uneducated webmasters. The bad part is that you can't really tell one from the other :(

I agree - my public submit is a trash bin - I have not allowed any galleries other then partners for going on two years - hardest thing to catch is the ones doing the server side random redirects -
For partner requests one thing I look at is if they submit a gallery is there a real site back at www.whatever.com/index.html - if so then they make it to the next level

[caringneo]

I agree that many newbies make mistakes. Some of them do it unintentionally, some do it with purpose. But you can't entirely blame this on newbies.
As some of the fellow webmasters mentioned, it is also an excuse for some guys to make money. IMHO, Charging for a submissions may not be that effective as it sounds(Though it might help to some extend)
Look at the submission pages of some TGPs. They call fellow webmasters "bastards"(Ofcourse very few guys put a small sentence saying, sorry if you are a honest webmaster", that's fine) Atleast it is the bandwidth, content and work of these bastards which greatly conribute to their sites. I agree that there are lot of FHG and Hosted free sites, still it is the regular submitter who makes the difference.
I am not here for an argument. Tomorrow, if I become a big TGP/ LL owner I might also just do what others are doing, because I am also lazy and want to make more money and make my life & work easier.
Neo

PS: All the above are just my humble opinion and didn't mean to hurt anyone or meant for argument. Sorry if I annoyed anyone. I didn't mean it..

[Surfn]

|huh

[Tommy]

caringneo
you go ahead and post whatever you think, dont worry about offending anyone

this is not about newbies that make mistakes, This about spyware, dialers, consoles and viruses

I think it should be a small ONE TIME fee of 10 to 50 dollars for a submit account that allows maybe 4 to 5 submits a day

if you notice I said I wanted to charge new submiters not newbies.
just webmasters who dont have any submit history with me

1) The cheaters wont find it profitable anymore paying 50 bucks for each submit account that gets blacklisted after 2 days

2) your gonna see the name on the creditcard, so they cant keep signing up for new accounts pretending to be someone else

[soggy]

I have no problem with pay submits. Hell maybe Tommy would list my free sites then! Just kidding Tommy. This has been a topic for a long long time. I remember a huge thread on adultnetsurprises board. If it keeps the trash out then it is a win win! BTW any word on DD opening up applications for his LL again? I sure do miss his traffic but understand him going that way as well. Keep up the good work everyone!

soggy

[caringneo]

Tommy,
I agree with you 100%. Charging a small fee which is affordable to everyone and with the main purpose of keeping the cheats away is fine.
I was only mentioning about those guys who charges 100s of dollars for a submit pass or a gallery spot and put lame excuse like, its due to cheating webmasters we had to charge.
If I can get my galleries and freesites posted at big places for real small prize, I would also be happy to buy a submit pass. (Though what is affordable for a US webmastrs might not be affordable for me unless I make lot of sales....sigh....!)
Thanks fo the reply Tommy |shake|
Neo

[finnbear]

If you pay for listing you want to see your site/gallery in good position, not in the bottom of the page after hundreds of others. If everyone must pay LL/TGP owners can't give everybody a good position.

Also, many webmasters submit to 100+ LLs/TGPs every day. Even $10 for an account would make it expensive, so small LLs/TGPs will drop and new ones won't come, unless they don't charge for submitting. When/if that happens, only webmasters who already have big porn empire and enough sells pay the price and others use small lists where you can submit for free.

[grzepa]

Originally posted by Cleo
Looking at my admin I would say that it is mostly from the former U.S.S.R. countries.

I think it is due to the mind set of having to work around the system in order to succeed.

I agree , good point its a result of beeing fucked by the systen for years...

[Opti]

Originally posted by Tommy
I think it should be a small ONE TIME fee of 10 to 50 dollars for a submit account that allows maybe 4 to 5 submits a day

if you notice I said I wanted to charge new submiters not newbies.
just webmasters who dont have any submit history with me

1) The cheaters wont find it profitable anymore paying 50 bucks for each submit account that gets blacklisted after 2 days

2) your gonna see the name on the creditcard, so they cant keep signing up for new accounts pretending to be someone else

that sounds good about the one time fee Tommy.. it will achieve the main objective without actually have to charge anyone per submission... Sounds like it could even be a good add-on to the global blacklist system.. but instead of it being a blacklist.. could be a whitelist that linksites use to automatically mark submits as "partner accounts"

You talked about it as a revenue source though.. Would people be able to pay for submits too to generate ongoing income from it?

*edit: If the "service" is free to linklists to use too everyone would use it and make the one time fee seem very reasonable.. (that still doesnt help me as a linksite user of the service to make money from it ongoing though.. a better model would generate ongoing income imho)

[doublep]

One of the biggest problems right now is site builders creating multiple accounts - I have been paying extra close attention to accounts that are created here by webmasters over the last few month or so, I have noticed that there are site builders creating several accounts at once in anticipation of the 1st one they use being deleted. So, all accounts that have zero submissions after 7 days are now deleted here.

Who are these webmasters? In my experience mostly from Poland (the biggest offenders are operating from this country) and the former USSR. It got the point that I have even considered banning the whole county from the server, which would be a shame really - why should I deny a whole country from accessing my resource because of a few bad apples. Plus, I do have 1 or 2 Polish submitters here who are honest.

Why are they doing it? This is the tricky question for me - if they were creating multiple accounts, subbing sites, then redirecting after a while, I could understand the reasoning behind their actions. But they don't - some of them sub sites, they get knocked back, some get a reason as to why they were rejected. Do they fix the problem - No. They carry on submitting with the same problems - the account gets deleted, they set up another.... an so on.

Another curious thing I have noticed. Is that some of them actually get it right - then shoot themselves in the feet. They sub a site, it gets listed, they sub more, they get listed. Then for no apparent reason some of them create another account under a different identity, and start subbing acceptable sites with both accounts. I catch them, I get suspicious, I delete them.

[Tommy]

doublep, these are free submit accounts ???

[doublep]

Hi Tommy - yeah. The fill out the form, they get a validation code to activate the account, then they can start subbing.

[dareutwo]

For me a Free site is an Ad -
I can promote a sponsor, I can promote Jays, I can promote Marks. Makes no difference to me, it's simply an ad.
Since it's an ad, how to get the most eyeballs on it?

Paid to get listed on Tommy's? of course.
Paid to get listed on GG's? of course.
Paid to get listed on .... ? of course.

At some point the Idea of the internet being FREE, will end. And I believe it will start in the Adult arena, where every other internet concept has developed.

Do I expect a Top Listing through a Paid listing? NO, if Everyone else has paid too.

I simply think this model will become the norm in the next 12 months.
For those in this as a business (full or part time), those who aren'te won't even be a concern. For the latch key webmasters, those days, and IP numbers may be numbered.

[Surfn]

I think paid is a good idea if applied in the right manner. I doubt that I would ever charge on my traffic pumps. I have over 40k in unique pages I've built the last 6-7 years and have enough trusted friends that I can update 8 months a year without repeating.

With advent of sponsor hosted galleries and sites, especially with quality of some of them rising, I could probably operate close to 14 months without a repeat on a couple dozen traffic pumps.

That said I would probably buy a submit pass at a nominal fee to a couple of places to keep my feet wet, or check that my marketing strategy is still effective. Which is pretty much what I'm doing now anyway.

[Alphawolf]

I bet if people paid for the right to submit they would put more effort into their free sites.

As someone about to embark on this, I'd really rather the model Tommy mentioned. Basically, paying as an unknown to eventually become a 'trusted' webmaster and be able to submit quality sites for nothing eventually.

If I get 'x' amount of declines I go back into the paid pile for another bit of time as a penelty.

Granted, webmasters outside the US may not have easy means to pay Link Lists and a small fee to US residents may be a chunk of change. However, their sponsors pay in US dollars so that cancels it out a bit.

dareutwo,

I like your observations and agree with you.

[Mateusz]

I think other major problem is ignorance. As a newbie I know something about that - since one and a half year I have learned a lot but I still 'pay' for my primary mistakes (backlists at some major LL's and TGP's)
First of all most newbies think they are anonymous and if once they screw something, they will start few hours later with new identity - in fact it's is pure fiction.
Second problem is they don't know some facts about AB... they know the rumors about easy money but most don't know they have to work continually for few months to get these nice letters from sponsors :)
Next problem is imitation - everyone is looking for pattern to start with but most offen it ends with copying all site design and changing sponsor links
The final problem is that they don't really know what they want to do. It ends with often server changings, file deleting and such things which are found by TGP/LL owners as cheating.

As you can see I'm from Poland.. some of you still got me on your blacklist (I know I deserved it in past - didn't want to cheat anybody but for some reasons I mentioned seconds ago I found myself there..) but I've learned a lot and I finally know what I want to do. I belive all of you have no reasons to say I'm cheater now - of course blacklisting is unavoidable but sometimes we should give others second chance - it's a pity but as old truth says people learn best at their own mistakes

[Tommy]

so your saying you were a cheater and now your not ???

I always wondered about the other side
what they were doing, if they noticed the changes, etc etc
I would be intersted in knowing some of your old domains/emails

how you use to cheat and what you made from it

and why you gave it up


your not andi kuhn are you ???

[Mateusz]

As I wrote I didn't want to cheat anyone but it could be discovered as I did it on purpouse - here is example..
Some sunny day I made free site (let's say it was free site but these days I wouldn't call it this way :].. never mind...) and it was accepted by few bigger link list like cleo, smut gremlins (this domain still blacklisted there) etc. Got some hits but of course it wasn't enough to get any sale.. Let's say I was dissapointed, probably as all newbie webmasters, becouse this sort of sites didn't bring me tons of easy money (we are talking about 1 or 2 free sites) so I started to think... what shall I do to make my wallet full of green... I decided to make some galleries... as I remember I was shocked with bandwich usage they produced so I decided to use free host.. of course I already forgot about those several free sites and didn't even think of copying them to new server or sending some info to LL owners.. as a 'experienced' webmaster I had 404 redirection to FPA or something like that and LL owners discovered that and banned me quickly - now I know its obvious but that days I didn't realize consequences...
I quess I could post more examples but probably most of you had similar problems at the beggining - the only difference is that most of you started your adventure with adult buisiness when it wasnt so popular ( I mean fresh blood trying it) as these days and than there were no needs and/or possibilities to ban anyone..

[Sculmaster]

Originally posted by Cleo
That is where you and I are different kristian, I see nothing wrong with working in the porn industry. If I had a child I would have no problem with them working in this industry when they were old enough and this is what they wanted to do.

I agree with Cleo. I am a dad with two kids and have been involved in the adult industry for the past 10 years. I have taught my kids that they can decide on what they want to do, but I have also tried to install certain values in their lives.

My choice - I work as a Pornmaster
Their choice - Whatever they feel comfortable with and would like to do once they are old enough.

My Dilemma - I have seen what this industry can do to people, and I would rather they do not enter this business!! would not want to see mu blue-eyed blond girl in a porn shoot, or have my son sit and wade through porn pictures, sponsor content or have to deal with all this crap from bulshit so-called webmasters.

[Fonz]

Originally posted by Tommy
I think it should be a small ONE TIME fee of 10 to 50 dollars for a submit account that allows maybe 4 to 5 submits a day

if you notice I said I wanted to charge new submiters not newbies.
just webmasters who dont have any submit history with me

1) The cheaters wont find it profitable anymore paying 50 bucks for each submit account that gets blacklisted after 2 days

2) your gonna see the name on the creditcard, so they cant keep signing up for new accounts pretending to be someone else That might be something that could work :)

And let's say "someone I know" :) has submitted some freesites to you in the past but never got listed. Would that someone be considered a NEW submitter? :)

[bret]

Originally posted by dareutwo
At some point the Idea of the internet being FREE, will end. And I believe it will start in the Adult arena, where every other internet concept has developed.

"the internet" is not free.

You get a bill from your host.
Your host gets a bill from their provider.
Their provider gets a bill from their provider... They inturn get a bill from the electric company, telco, and numerous other companies.

even the end user gets a bill from their service provider.

as far as new developments. the adult industry likes to claim invention of, when infact at best, they created market for. vhs, dvd, various "internet developments". they adult industry may have been the first to make practicle use of certain developments, but actually doing the r&d, well they couldnt be further from. and the amount of concepts used by mainstream that started in adult, are few and far between. not industry bashing, just reality check.


to the topic at hand. i welcome paid submissions. as long as the list operators remove about 90% of the rules they have in place. most of which are to curb cheating.

if i am an approved paid account, i want to be able to use my paid advertising medium to it's full potential.

with paid submissions should come a wave of innovative and creative "free sites" and free listings. let's get away from these cookie cutter sites with cookie cutter advertising, which has become very ineffective, and get back to a flurishing industry, instead of a saturated & stale marketplace.

[RawAlex]

I feel bad for the honest webmasters in certain countries. I, like many link site owners, have been forced to block out IPs, hosts, ISPs and all other sorts of things to get rid of people who just can't follow the rules - and worse, are abusive of the system of TGP / link site listing.

If a site can handle 200 new listings a day, why should any one webmaster (or group) feel that 1000 submissions would be good? I closed down my TGP submissions a couple of years ago when I was getting almost 5k submits a day - to a TGP getting about 1k hits per day otherwise. In that 5k, more than half of them came from less than a handful of people.

Link sites put blocks, require code words, keys, type this code, whatever... and still the autosubmitters try to jam as many sites as possible into the review line. They don't give a shit that you don't want to review their sites, they don't give a rat's ass about your rules, they just want to get listed.

Then about half these bastards turn around and redirect surfers to dialers, auto downloads, malware, toolbars, and all sorts of other shit.

There is a small but agressive minority out there that is totally 100% fucking it up for everyone else.

It's sad.

Alex

PS: No, I won't tell you how I really feel!

[whitey]

The stunning thing to me is the number of long time, partner submitters who suddenly have been loading viruses and other nasty stuff onto their pages.

Times are tough and though times will separate those with character and those without. Those without will eventually find a new outlet for scamming or easy money. Right now, however, my tgps are being bombarded by scam submits, but I refuse to close the open submit on many of them - it is the source of future contacts and partners.