Porn MegaBucks says I'm a fraud

[SheepGuy]

After sending them roughly 5-6,000 hits without a sale I was ready to dump them when Wahoo! I made a sale! So I check the stats to see what kind of big bucks I made, but the stats didn't tell me. So I sent a slightly sarcastic email asking "How much?" and stating that their stats suck and I would likely be dumping them anyways.
Boom! I make 3 more sales! Now I'm thinking there's something wrong on their end. 4 sales from 6 hits to a free hosted site that I don't even remember putting up is a bit unusual. But it's late at night, and I go to bed.
I wake up in the morning to this email
"Important Information Regarding:
Affiliate ID(s): -----------
Webmaster Program: Pornmegabucks

Your Affiliate account(s) has/have been deactivated due to suspicion of fraud.


Thank you,
CCBill"

Funny thing is the sales were reported as coming through Paycom |huh
but the email is from CCBill.
Regardless, I am dumping Pornmegabucks, and hoping that this doesn't affect my status with CCBill, who I do well with.
Everyone who has ever had any business with me knows I fly straight, so this fraud bit pisses me off.

[Lisa]

I had no idea who the fraudulent webmaster was, I only go on statistics, not personalities, but I can tell you this.

From September 5 to September 7, 5 sales were made to Erotic Punishment under what I now assume is your reseller ID.

All of those sales were made from the same IP, all of them were monthly sales, and NONE of the 'members' at any stage entered the members area.

Read into that what you will.

I'm happy to provide you with screen shots to prove it.

[SheepGuy]

I already have honey. I read that you are accusing me of fraud. My conscience is clear.
Read into that what you will. If however this affects my business with other sponsors, please post your proof publicly now, or in court.
I will not take being slandered in a public forum lightly though, and if it should affect my income I will sue.

[Lisa]

So you are giving me permission to post the screen shots to prove it?

I'm not slandering anyone...as I said until your post I had no idea who the reseller was who I had cancelled. I merely cancelled a reseller who clearly had fraudulent memberships.

If having 5 sales from the one IP, none of which ever entered the members area, isn't fraud, what exactly would you call it?

We're not in the habit of terminating webmasters who send legitimate sales, we're not stupid. However in the interests of protecting our processing, we have no choice but to terminate webmasters who have clearly fraudulent signups.

[SheepGuy]

Post away. Just assure me that this will have zero affect on my dealings with other sponsors and we have no problem. I don't want any money from you, and yes, as I said, those sales definitely look unusual at best. I'm thinking it's a problem at paycom's end, so why notify CCBill? If I have problems with them because of your actions, then we have problems.
Why not track back to see who's credit card was used, from where, and take it from there. Talk to paycom before accusing me. Or talk to my lawyer.

[Lisa]

I have to get permission from my boss to post the screenshots (he owns the program, not me) but as soon as I get his ok to so, I'll post them.

As for notifying CCBill...I cancelled a webmaster from our program due to apparent fraud. When terminating a webmaster in CCBill they request a reason, I gave them one.

Let me remind you that this was not a personal attack on YOU. As I said I had no idea 'who' the webmaster was, just that there was fraudulent activity on an account.

What other sponsors do with the information is up to them. But let me remind you that it was you who brought it to the board, not me.

[SheepGuy]

Aaah, now it's "apparent fraud". Talk to your boss, I'll talk to my lawyer.
I'm finished talking to you.
In the meantime, I suggest you or your boss talk to paycom and track that IP address, maybe even ask them why they would allow 5 signups from the same IP?
I'm sure this is a computer mixup that I have no control over, but if that mixup harms my business through your actions, well, it's your problem too.

[Lisa]

I'm sure your lawyer will advise you that given the proof at hand, my actions were completely justified.

I've just written to Paycom asking them to investigate and see if they can shed any light on the situation. I'll be sure to inform you of what they say. The likelihood that it is a 'computer mixup' is extremely remote. I didn't mention that the usernames and passwords all bore a resemblance to each other also. Fraud is being committed by someone...just who that is remains to be seen.

As soon as I hear back from Bill, I'll post the screenshots.

[SheepGuy]

I've just written to Paycom asking them to investigate and see if they can shed any light on the situation.

Maybe you should have thought of that first.

[Lisa]

Maybe I've been doing this long enough to know fraud when I see it.

Whether or not YOU did it is beyond the point. They were fraudulent signups...I refunded them and terminated the reseller responsible.

As I've already said, but I'll repeat it just so you get it. This isn't about YOU, it's about fraudulent signups done by someone. I had no idea WHO that was, nor did I care.

Given your insistence that you are not responsible, i'm happy to have Paycom investigate, but it's unlikely they'll be able to shed any information on the matter, but we shall see.

[murray]

Good luck with Pornmegabucks I won a competition years ago for $1000 and never got it, after many many emails I just got ignored

[Lisa]

Murray, you elected to have that paid via an Amazon gift certificate, instead of a check.

The GC was purchased, and you were sent the receipt but for whatever reason you claimed you didn't receive it.

I still have the receipt if you'd like me to send it to you again.

Every other winner received their funds.

And incidentally, that issue has absolutely NOTHING to do with a webmaster defrauding US. Try and keep on topic eh?

[Lisa]

And BTW, the return address on all the emails you sent me didn't have a .com at the end of it, and you wanted me to send emails to you to a completely different email address/domain. After asking nicely that you fix it, and then warning that if you didn't fix it, I would stop replying to your emails, that is probably what happened.

How does a person who relies on the web for their income repeatedly have an invalid reply-to in their email client?

[spacemanspiff]

Hey Lisa, you didn't used to work for Southwest Airlines, did ya? |couch|

[ladydesigner]

I probably should stay out of this since it has nothing to do with me but I'm sorry to see this happen to you Sheepguy. Another sponsor (whom I won't mention) did the same thing to me about a year ago. I'm still trying to find all the links out there to their sites so I can remove them. Not fun!

Porn Mega Bucks?? Is that program still around? I stopped promoting them for various reasons years ago. Good luck. :)

[tigermom]

I would expect a sponsor to keep the lines of communication to a webmaster open and investigate first, before accusing of fraud and shutting down an account, especially since it's a CCBill program and who knows on which records of theirs the info is kept for future reference.

I think Sheepguy made it clear that he too is pretty certain that there was something fishy going on there with those sales. That was not the issue. The issue was with accusing the webmaster of that fraud, rather than investigating first. If it happened to Sheepguy, it could happen to anyone (and obviously it does happen from time to time). I would expect any sponsor that I work with to talk to the webmaster first and investigate and not just terminate an account and flag that webmaster as the one responsible for the fraud.

[SheepGuy]

I would expect a sponsor to keep the lines of communication to a webmaster open and investigate first, before accusing of fraud and shutting down an account, especially since it's a CCBill program and who knows on which records of theirs the info is kept for future reference.

I think Sheepguy made it clear that he too is pretty certain that there was something fishy going on there with those sales. That was not the issue. The issue was with accusing the webmaster of that fraud, rather than investigating first. If it happened to Sheepguy, it could happen to anyone (and obviously it does happen from time to time). I would expect any sponsor that I work with to talk to the webmaster first and investigate and not just terminate an account and flag that webmaster as the one responsible for the fraud.

My point exactly.

[SheepGuy]

Thanks LadyD, I was ready to drop them for poor conversions when these "sales" started showing up.

[Useless]

I think SheepGuy was using plateman's magic sign-up bot which comes equipped with its own credit cards, yet isn't advanced enough to change IPs.
|couch|

Sounds like yet another case of a scripting error on the biller's end that ends up screwing both the webmaster and the program. It very well could be some douchebag attempting to sign-up, getting declined, attempting again, getting declined...lather, rinse, repeat...but the declines are getting tallied as sales. That explains why it's the same IP and why no one ever logged in to the member's area.

[Tommy]

Lisa, your boss Bill and I go way back

I would have a hard time believing any fraud was committed by Sheepguy no matter what screen caps or proof you have

if I were you I would take a step back and maybe take a fresh look at everything

your dealing with a well respected webmaster who has a very good reputation, a little caution is warranted

[HowlingWulf]

Unfortunately it seems webmasters can be held accountable when surfers sign up for programs fraudulently. Happened to me, happened to you, welcome to the club. :)

[tickler]

..... attempting to sign-up, getting declined, attempting again, getting declined...lather, rinse, repeat...but the declines are getting tallied as sales.
Had that problem in a somewhat different case.

First try the CC got declined for an error. Tried again being even more careful, and got declined again. |banghead|

Pulled up the CC account to verify the info, and the multiple charges are showing on my statement.|crazy|

So not all scripts are perfect. Especially in the online world where a lot of programmers do not have the formal training or experience.

[Lisa]

These sales were not declines, they were active sales, on 5 different cc's.

As mentioned before, i've been doing this a long time and I've never seen a sales pattern like this that was NOT fraud.

I've mailed Paycom, they are investigating. If they can prove that it is NOT fraud on the part of the webmaster, I'm more than happy to retract that statement and notify CCBill of same. My job is to protect our processing...when that is put in jeopardy by a webmaster i don't know from Adam my responsibility is to the program.

Incidentally, no email was ever received regarding stats prior to these sales going thru...possibly it was caught up and not verified at SpamArrest, but no email was ever received.

Links to the screen shots are below.

http://pornmegabucks.com/pmb16985.jpg

http://pornmegabucks.com/pmb16985members.jpg

[Bobc01]

Whatever happened to innocent til proven guilty?

Just remember one thing Lisa, we don't need you, but you need us so bare that in mind when you deal with webmasters.

[petergg2]

You should disable that login/password from screenshot - or its promotion for GGJ board members ? :D

[Lisa]

We don't need fraudulent webmasters. Take a look at those screenshots and ask yourself what your reaction would have been.

Remember we are a recurring program...we make money when webmasters make money. We gained nothing from those fraudulent sales, they were all refunded. This is not a case of accusing a webmaster of fraud so we can keep the money generated by the signups...there is none.

Again this was not a personal attack on Sheepguy...I had no idea who the webmaster was/is...and don't care. The sales were fraudulent, and clearly not genuine...so they were refunded and the webmaster axed.

If Paycom comes back to me with an explanation that proves it's not fraud as I've said I'll apologise unreservedly and also notify CCBill.

It was not my intention to harm anyone's reputation for the fun of it. I didn't bring this to the boards.

[Maj. Stress]

We don't need fraudulent webmasters. Take a look at those screenshots and ask yourself what your reaction would have been.

5 credit cards, one ip (located in the US) and 5 different emails 3 of which point to France. My first guess would be someone was testing out some stolen credit card numbers.

[Bobc01]

We don't need fraudulent webmasters. Take a look at those screenshots and ask yourself what your reaction would have been.

Remember we are a recurring program...we make money when webmasters make money. We gained nothing from those fraudulent sales, they were all refunded. This is not a case of accusing a webmaster of fraud so we can keep the money generated by the signups...there is none.

Again this was not a personal attack on Sheepguy...I had no idea who the webmaster was/is...and don't care. The sales were fraudulent, and clearly not genuine...so they were refunded and the webmaster axed.

If Paycom comes back to me with an explanation that proves it's not fraud as I've said I'll apologise unreservedly and also notify CCBill.

It was not my intention to harm anyone's reputation for the fun of it. I didn't bring this to the boards.

In that case my reaction would of been to contact the webmaster first off to discuss the issue and go from there along with an investigation straight away with the billing company.

You've treated the guy like shit as if he's some kind of criminal without firm evidence it was him.

To me that has "unprofessional" written all over it.

[SheepGuy]

Lisa, how do you define a personal attack?
I include being accused of fraud as a personal attack, and repeatedly through your posts here you have accused me of fraud, referring to me as "the webmaster" or grouped in with "fraudulent webmasters" or whatever.
You have launched a personal attack on my integrity and my reputation as a webmaster who has flown straight for over 10 years now. This is the first time anyone has ever accused me of fraud, a polite term for theft, and yes I am severely pissed off.
I brought it to the board because I will not be accused, convicted, and sentenced for a fraud I did not commit, and quietly say nothing.
You picked the fight by not even consulting me before putting a black mark beside my name.
On the plus side, for your inept handling of this situation, you have certainly picked up some nice publicity for your program.

[Useless]

Links to the screen shots are below.

http://pornmegabucks.com/pmb16985.jpg

http://pornmegabucks.com/pmb16985members.jpgThe referrer for all of those sales is listed as "http://www.google.com/search". Doesn't take much investigating here to figure this one out. If I do a Google search (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=4bdsm&btnG=Search) for the site in question, 4bdsm.com, using 4bdsm as the search string, SheepGuy's referral link is in the number one spot. So who ever created these 'fraudulent' sign-ups did so just as your screenshots indicated. They searched for your site, using Google, and SheepGuy became the unfortunate victim here due to him doing a good job promoting your site. |thumb

I usually charge for investigation, but I'll let you have this one pro bono.

I couldn't tell you what the guy's goal was, but I'm guessing he's toying with site security.

[DangerDave]

SheepGuy is NO fraud.. he is a long standing trusted member of this community(and many previous ones) I have no doubt what so ever that his word is true and honest.

5 credit cards, one ip (located in the US) and 5 different emails 3 of which point to France. My first guess would be someone was testing out some stolen credit card numbers.

That would have been my first thought...

...and the referrer details would just about have confirmed it.


Lisa, just get Bill to pay Murray the 1K, it's owed to him and the onus is on PornMegaBucks is to get it to him... no matter what gets in the way..

DD

[MrYum]

You picked the fight by not even consulting me before putting a black mark beside my name.

And therein lies the real crux of the issue at hand.

Wow...simply wow...I would have thought an old school program like PMG would know better |dizzy|

A number of things could be responsible for that pattern. To blindly assume the webmaster is responsible is short-sighted to say the least.

[SheepGuy]

Wow! Thanks guys and gals for the support! It is greatly appreciated. The screenshots for some reason showed up unreadable on my screen, so thanks UW for digging into this for me|cheers|
This truly is a great community!
Now I'm off to pull some links before I get all happy-weepy like and forgiving ;) I'm still meeting my lawyer Tuesday.

[plateman]

kinda funny thread, whats funny is that now some old shit got kicked up, and a 1000 dollars are owed to murry for an old contest

murry make sure you get your money and pay a few bills and go out on the town on porn mega bucks, be sure and post a screen shot enjoying your winnings|thumb

[sue-fl]

5 credit cards, one ip (located in the US) and 5 different emails 3 of which point to France. My first guess would be someone was testing out some stolen credit card numbers.

Same thing I was thinking after reading all these posts.

I really think it's wrong what has been said and done to SheepGuy and an apology is certainly due to him.

I don't promote you and am glad because if I did I would be pulling links right now |angry|

[Lisa]

It's fairly clear that few in this thread have ever been responsible for running a program

I have seen this EXACT pattern before, probably 15 or so times in the last 6 years and every single time it's been a 'webmaster' committing the fraud to their own gain.

IF I'm wrong this time, I will apologise as I've said, but it would be a first. The only person who stood to gain from this is the webmaster who would have been paid for the sales had they not been refunded.

Perhaps it's time to wonder who might have wanted this situation to occur...it's certainly not us. But maybe there's someone out there with an agenda against Sheepguy who thought this might be a tidy way to deal with it.

I'm not yet convinced that we haven't been defrauded by a webmaster, but I'm more than prepared to be proven wrong.

As to talking to the webmaster first, what would that prove exactly? Do you really think a dishonest webmaster would just admit to it when questioned? All anyone would do, regardless of their involvement, would be to deny it. So how is one to prove that the denial is based on innocence or further deception?

[Lisa]

Lisa, just get Bill to pay Murray the 1K, it's owed to him and the onus is on PornMegaBucks is to get it to him... no matter what gets in the way..

DD

Murray was the one who opted to be paid by Amazon gift certificate, which was duly purchased according to his instructions. Given that all of the emails that I hit 'reply' to bounced back at me, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the email address which he asked the gc to be paid to was invalid also.

Debbie won a couple of months later and had her check in less than 3 weeks...

[Toby]

...I'm not yet convinced that we haven't been defrauded by a webmaster, but I'm more than prepared to be proven wrong...That statement sums up the biggest issue I have with how this has been handled.

You've immediately assumed it was the webmaster that was responsible for the fraudulant signups and have placed the responsibilty on the webmaster to prove otherwise when it should be the other way around.

You should be the one proving that the IPs and emails involved are connected to the webmaster, as it's all but impossible for him to prove the negative.

[Lisa]

My assumption may be wrong, but it's based on many years experience with this exact issue. Call it learned behaviour, if you will.

If this is not fraud on the part of the webmaster it would be the VERY FIRST TIME that it is not the case.

And as I have repeated ad nauseum, if that is not the case, I will apologise, but I was not prepared to put our processing at risk by allowing those memberships to be charged back.

I've asked Paycom to investigate as they are the ones who processed the transactions. I haven't asked Sheepguy to prove anything at all.

If someone wanted to just try out some stolen credit cards they could have done it on the site without a referrer code...the use of a referrer code immediately places the suspicion, rightly or wrongly, on the webmaster, because they are the one who stands to gain.

The transactions are clearly fraudulent, no question there. The fact that they were all done by one specific reseller connects them to him immediately, far more definitively that any IP or free email address does.

[murray]

yes I did ask to get payed via an amazon certificate, that is not the issue. by the way lets not talk about who has email issues

ICQ Message
got your mail...i sent your info on to bill and wasn't aware he hadn't paid you yet

he hasn't answered the last few mails i've sent him tho so now i'm starting to wonder if i've gotten caught in his spam filters

i'm gonna try calling him this morning and find out what is up

So yeah please show me this recipt from Amazon. Incase you wernt aware I went over your head to Bill to get this sorted and it never did, even after he promised to get in touch with amazon.

also

How does a person who relies on the web for their income repeatedly have issues with contacting their boss?

[Lisa]

Give me an email address that works Murray and I'll forward it to you now.

[Toby]

The fact that they were all done by one specific reseller connects them to him immediately, far more definitively that any IP or free email address does.WRONG!!! It simply proves that the person that truly is responsible had visited the site recently via one of SheepGuy's reseller links and had a cookie set in their browser. At that point returning to the site directly would have still credited any sales to the saved referral code.

...but I'm more than prepared to be proven wrong.That sure looks to me like asking SheepGuy to prove you wrong. |crazy|

This whole thing makes no sense. If a webmaster was going to go to the trouble to make fraudulent sales under their own referral code, why do so on a revshare program with a max sale of $29.95?

5 x $29.95 x 60% = $89.85. For an established webmaster, that's chump change.

[SheepGuy]

But maybe there's someone out there with an agenda against Sheepguy who thought this might be a tidy way to deal with it.

Funny. In the last 10 years in this biz I have made 1 enemy. A Swiss fellow who stole the design and images from a few of my sites way back in '99. That situation was resolved shortly after it was discovered, and I haven't heard from the guy since. Since then, I really can't recall anyone in the biz being pissed off at me. At least not enough to steal credit cards and try to frame me with a pissant sponsor like the one you represent.

A nice grasp at straws on your part, but wouldn't it be easier to admit that you fucked up? Not that it would necessarily be enough at this point since I'm still not sure what economic damage your reckless accusations have caused me, if any, but I'll be looking into that.

Keep talking, keep slandering me. I'm beyond being pissed off now, I'm enjoying watching you dig yourself deeper into a legal shithole.

[Lisa]

I'm not yet convinced I have fucked up.

You're all acting under the assumption that I knew that pmb16985 was an established webmaster to whom that money would be chump change. Wrong.

THIS HAS BEEN DONE IN THIS EXACT SAME WAY BEFORE. FRAUDSTERS TARGET RECURRING PROGRAMS BECAUSE OF THAT EXACT ASSUMPTION, THAT WE WILL NOT BE SUSPICIOUS BASED ON THE SEEMINGLY SMALL EARNINGS. TO SOME PEOPLE THAT IS NOT A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY. IN FACT, DUPLICATED OVER MANY PROGRAMS IT CAN REALLY ADD UP.

To us, pmb16985 was a webmaster who had signed up with us earlier this year and sent less than 3000 unique hits to the program. This does not scream established webmaster.

I'm leaving this in Paycom's hands and will wait to hear what their investigations reveal.

And Toby...we don't use cookies.

[SheepGuy]

5 x $29.95 x 60% = $89.85. For an established webmaster, that's chump change.

Exactly. Another reason why this is so infuriatingly stupid.
What kind of a moron would I be to risk 10 years of full-time self employment in a biz where your reputation is everything, for peanuts |huh
Fuck, if I was that stupid I'd have to go out and get a real job, and I really couldn't handle the idea of a boss. I'm just not made for that anymore.

[Toby]

And Toby...we don't use cookies.Ahhh, so I won't get credit for any surfers that return and buy within a few days unless they bookmark a link that has my referral code. That's good to know. |banghead|

[Lisa]

And you also won't lose sales because they visit another webmasters site before yours, click on their referral code and have their cookie already in their system when they click on your referral code.

It's called swings and roundabouts...

[murray]

Thanks for the recipt Lisa, hope we can get this sorted out soon

[tigermom]

Lisa, I can see how things must have looked from your end, and I can see your need to protect your billing system. All we're saying is that maybe you should do that little bit of investigating on your part, perhaps even disabling a webmaster's account while doing so, rather than labeling them as fraud and raising who knows which flags all over CCBill for it. If that flag is just within your own program and does not affect a webmaster's standing through out CCBill, that would be one thing btw. I am still not clear as to whether these things get logged on one's record in CCBill.

Useless Warrior here presented a most plausible theory, whereas Sheepguy's referrer ID comes as number 1 in Google search results for your site. Therefore, if anyone was trying to breach your security systems with stolen CC's using Google search for it (as your own logs indicate was the case) they are more than likely to be doing so using Sheepguy's codes, simply because he was doing better SEO than you guys.

It's not about knowing Sheepguy or realizing in advance whether this was an experienced webmaster or not. Now, I have not run a paysite or a program before, but wouldn't this kind of procedure be good: first cancel the transactions and suspend the webmaster's account for 48 hours or something, then contact them and tell them there is suspected fraud. If they are cheaters, I doubt that they'll bother denying it or even getting back to you. One thing is certain, they will not be trying it again with you guys. If on the other hand, you are dealing with an honest webmaster, you might just be able to get some credentials for them from other sponsors maybe, or from webmasters boards, and stop short of flagging their name for fraud in the system.

Again, this isn't about Sheepguy, to me (much as I love you, man!). It's about something that could happen to any honest working webmaster.

BTW. just because you've seen this 15 times before doesn't even mean they were all cheaters. Some of them could have been honest webmasters who just figured it would be easier to drop your links and forget all about it. And even if they were all cheaters, obviously it doesn't prove that the next one is a cheater as well. I'm saying obviously, because I think it should be clear even to you by now, that in this very particular case, you've hit on someone that is a totally honest webmaster.

[Toby]

And you also won't lose sales because they visit another webmasters site before yours, click on their referral code and have their cookie already in their system when they click on your referral code...Huh?

That's something I've NEVER seen happen. And if it had, there'd have been a big stink on the boards.

Nice try, but I'm not buying it as a "benefit" of not using cookies to credit return surfers to the originating affiliate.

[picXX]

As to talking to the webmaster first, what would that prove exactly?

Maybe the fact that you are taking youre buiseness partners seriously?
You are not doing affiliates a favour to let them promote youre program.
It is a 2 way buiseness, so a 2 way communication should be in place.
To assume that any affiliate/webmaster is fraudelent every time something happens, without even trying to investigate or communicate, is like shooting yourself with a silverbullet in the ass.

[Lisa]

If they were attempting to breach site security, don't you think that perhaps they might have entered the members area at least once?

Somehow I don't think that's it...

And Toby, that is a known side effect of using cookies. It's one of the reasons some programs/webmasters prefer cookies and also one of the reasons that some dislike them intently.

Their perceived benefits to some people are a perceived downfall to others.

[Toby]

And Toby, that is a known side effect of using cookies.OH BULLSHIT! I didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday. In fact I have a bachelors degree in Comp Sci and fully understand how cookies function. If that is a "known side effect", then it's due to errors in the coding.

CCBill has been doing this for MANY years and I've yet to see anyone post a complaint that an existing cookie is overriding a current referral code. It's something that is not that difficult to detect.

[Bobc01]

If they were attempting to breach site security, don't you think that perhaps they might have entered the members area at least once?

That sounds a typical trick done by carders for password sharing.
For someone that claims so much experience you come across as being very naive.
You've now questioned the ethics of all programs as i wonder how many other honest webmasters have been victimised by unfounded claims of fraud.
Without any investigation whatsoever you've labeled the guy a criminal.
Judging by the poor conversion ratios, can you really afford to be this confident?

[Licker4U]

It's called swings and roundabouts...

Huh? No thanks. This is prompting another thread.

[Simon]

Hiya Lisa :)

I know you've been in the business a long time, and you're following what you believe are the correct procedures as you deal with this issue. And I appreciate that you're continuing to talk with us here on the board about it.

So I just want to suggest that you take a couple of steps back and consider viewing this thread from a completely different perspective. Try looking at it as suggestions being made by affiliates on how they wish an affiliate program would handle things when something like this happens.

Sure, the tendency is always to set things up to protect against the many 'bad guys' who are constantly trying to find ways to steal from you or damage your program and/or its processing capabilities. But as someone who does run a program, I'm suggesting that a more personal approach to handling something like this could have a lot of value to you.

We've found that most of the bad guys will go away once you contact them and tell them what you suspect, while the good guys will take objection to any such suspicion and go out of their way to prove their good intentions. The experienced bad guys have learned there's not enough profit in arguing after being identified, so they mostly just vanish.

Of course you want to protect your processing, and there's no reason not to suspend an account while investigating. But the main idea is to contact the affiliate webmaster to let them know the account has been temporarily suspended because of suspicious activity. If a webmaster doesn't respond to repeated messages that all signups are being refunded (when applicable), you can pretty much assume that was a bad guy and cancel the account completely.

There's definitely more than one way those transactions could have wound up being posted against a webmaster's affiliate account. And regardless of what your statistics may show, it's almost always better to give your affiliates the benefit of the doubt until you're really sure.

Simon


P.S. This post is meant to be taken as an 'in general' suggestion and not so much about the particular webmaster involved here.

P.P.S. We do use cookies for tracking and the standard thing is that the most recent cookie overwrites the existing cookie if there is one. Our cookies last just under 9 months if nothing overwrites them.

P.P.P.S. That said, I do want to add that I stand with everyone else here who's posted to say they don't believe SheepGuy would have done anything to defraud your or any other program.

[koalaTalex]

These threads are great! Not only for their entertainment value but more importantly because you learn which sponsors you don't want to sign up to or promote EVER!

I can't even believe that a sponsor would just cancel an account as fraud without first contacting the webmaster involved! Un-fucking-believable!

The cheaters do spoil things for the rest of us but we still expect sponsors to make an attempt to clear it up with the webmaster first. As tigermom says if the webmaster is a fraud he won't try to clear up his name.

I can't believe that Lisa at Pornmegabucks has still not changed her position in this thread given all the webmasters that have stood up for Sheepguy and even Useless' Google research!

Just think of all those potential pornmegabucks promoters that will go to the message boards to search about Porn Mega Bucks before signing up... not after reading this thread!

A few months ago one of our main sponsors made a complete ass of himself here calling out a webmaster that as far as we could see didn't deserve that kind of treatment. Well we dropped that program immediately and I will never make another gallery or free site for his program nor will I ever actively promote it again.

Sponsors need to have respect for us honest webmasters, we spend everyday promoting your smut and if something "fishy" happens with our affiliate account the least we deserve is an email before being canceled as a fraud!

[GonZo]

DAMN!!!

[Mr Spock]

The main problem here seems to me to be PornMegaBuck's attitude to affiliate webmasters, accusing a wm of fraud without any communication and secondly Lisa's arrogant attitude in addressing the issue here, she just doesn't get that their could have been a better way to deal with the matter. |crazy|

You say that you have seen this type of transaction 15 times in the past 6 years, which I don't think is that many given the volumes of transactions that are processed, so in general I think it is better to assume that the wm you are dealing with is honest.

Guess what, I'll never sign up with this bunch of clowns and I am sure there are dozens of webmasters who feel the same way.

Sheepguy is a respected and well liked webmaster and I don't believe that he would engage in fraudulent transactions.|thumb

[spacemanspiff]

Whenever I'm looking at program and thinking of signing up, I usually come over here and do a search to see what experiences other folks have had with the program. Anyone else do the same?

Anyone want to venture a guess how much Lisa has cost her company in the name of "protecting" it?

[Lisa]

After further investigation, and consultation both with my boss and Paycom, we can find no evidence linking Sheepguy to the fraudulent signups put through under his reseller code.

Tho the signups were most definitely fraudulent, it seems that it is possible that Sheepguy was in fact the unwitting victim of someone with a batch of stolen credit cards.

Although I acted in good faith based on both the evidence before me, and my past experience with cases just like this, I accept that this time I got it very wrong.

I now know that although on the surface it appeared like a clear case of webmaster fraud, there is now something else to take into consideration when investigating cases like this, something that was not, in my experience, an issue previously.

I apologise unreservedly to Sheepguy for any distress my actions may have caused him.

As a gesture of conciliation, when reinstating his account I have also raised his payout to 70%, an action I realise is most likely futile as he is unlikely to ever send us a hit again, however it has been done.

Again, my wholehearted apology for the understandable distress this episode has caused.

[Llam4]

I have seen this EXACT pattern before, probably 15 or so times in the last 6 years and every single time it's been a 'webmaster' committing the fraud to their own gain.
Am I the only one concerned by this?

If the other 15 "fraudsters" were given the same courtesy (or lack thereof), who's to say which if any of them were really attempting fraud?

[SheepGuy]

After further investigation, and consultation both with my boss and Paycom, we can find no evidence linking Sheepguy to the fraudulent signups put through under his reseller code.

Tho the signups were most definitely fraudulent, it seems that it is possible that Sheepguy was in fact the unwitting victim of someone with a batch of stolen credit cards.

Although I acted in good faith based on both the evidence before me, and my past experience with cases just like this, I accept that this time I got it very wrong.

I now know that although on the surface it appeared like a clear case of webmaster fraud, there is now something else to take into consideration when investigating cases like this, something that was not, in my experience, an issue previously.

I apologise unreservedly to Sheepguy for any distress my actions may have caused him.

As a gesture of conciliation, when reinstating his account I have also raised his payout to 70%, an action I realise is most likely futile as he is unlikely to ever send us a hit again, however it has been done.

Again, my wholehearted apology for the understandable distress this episode has caused.

That's all very well, but until I recieve assurances from CCBill and Paycom that there is no black mark beside my name caused by your company, well, I'll still be talking to my lawyer on Tuesday.

Thanks you for reinstating my account, the stats will come in handy helping me to ensure that I have taken down all of your links and won't accidentally send some hits your way.

[Bobc01]

Tho the signups were most definitely fraudulent, it seems that it is possible that Sheepguy was in fact the unwitting victim of someone with a batch of stolen credit cards.


No fucking shit!

How easy it would be to bring down a webmaster by using stolen credit cards against his or her account.
Or atleast with incompetent sponsors like yours.

Sheepguys being very reasonable i think as i'd of slapped a lible case on your arse within 24hrs.

[LD]

That's all very well, but until I recieve assurances from CCBill and Paycom that there is no black mark beside my name caused by your company, well, I'll still be talking to my lawyer on Tuesday.

way.

..hope it all works out in your best interest, you're a good man!

[Tommy]

Lisa it takes a big person to openly applogize like you just did
your stock just went up a point or two in my book

[ArtWilliams]

I apologise unreservedly to Sheepguy for any distress my actions may have caused him.

You are a class act for doing the right thing. |thumb

[Bobc01]

I reckon he should atleast get a blowjob for the trouble.

And if not, then i'd be happy to accept one on his behalf. |thumb

[Bluey]

Lisa it takes a big person to openly applogize like you just did your stock just went up a point or two in my book

Yes we agree with Tommy.

Maybe, with a bit of luck, some good can come from all this.

B.

[babymaker]

why are people being so nice in the last 3 or so posts?? WTF she was a bitch and overreacted so she appologized but who cares, this is how they do business, why be all nice just because she got cornered.

Maybe she called someone bro and bought them a drink at a show lol :D

[ecchi]

I agree it took guts (or more likely a yelling at from her boss) to apologise, but it does not alter the original situation. If I poked you in the eye with a sharp stick, then when you told everyone what I had done, I said "sorry" to you, would you be happy with me?

[ronnie]

It's amazing this got drug out so far. Yes sheepguy brought it up, but it could have been and should have been taken into private conversation right away. The damage is done, little late now. Like ecchi said, sorry doesn't do a whole lot of good now. It's great sheepguys rep is in tact, to bad PMB couldn't say the same.

Sure my little bit of traffic won't be missed.

[MightyMidget]

Mostly I just feel sorry for Sheepguy. 10 years in the business and he still hasn't heard of proxies. He just goes straight in there, signs up 5 times in a row with the same IP and wait for that sweet cash. Doofus!

Oh, that was sarcasm by the way. But I sure do hope programs have more advanced anti-fraud protection than this, or you'll end up only catching the complete idots or the (as in this case) innocent.

[LowryBigwood]

I now know that although on the surface it appeared like a clear case of webmaster fraud, there is now something else to take into consideration when investigating cases like this, something that was not, in my experience, an issue previously.

Wow. No kidding? Why did you not take Tommy's advise early on? Now you have really done a number on your program. Maybe you should think about a new position, I am not so sure public relations is what you should be doing over there. Just a thought and suggestion.


I apologise unreservedly to Sheepguy for any distress my actions may have caused him.


It's a start, but you went way too far and will never see any traffic from my sites. |thumb

[LowryBigwood]

Mostly I just feel sorry for Sheepguy. 10 years in the business and he still hasn't heard of proxies. He just goes straight in there, signs up 5 times in a row with the same IP and wait for that sweet cash. Doofus!

|newbie|

Seriously... I wonder how many other programs follow a similiar anti-webmaster logic?

[GonZo]

I agree it took guts (or more likely a yelling at from her boss) to apologise, but it does not alter the original situation. If I poked you in the eye with a sharp stick, then when you told everyone what I had done, I said "sorry" to you, would you be happy with me?

In all fairness...I doubt Bill yelled at Lisa. It was probably the other way around.

[Lisa]

There was no yelling involved, at all.

Just a realisation by me that I'd fucked up, and a desire to do whatever I could to fix it.

I realise that not every mistake we make can be completely erased, but in this instance, everything that was within my power to do, has been done.

[Jel]

Hand on heart - no-one has made a fuck up? Thats what makes us people right? And what sets certain people from certain people? The willingness to apologise for those fuck ups, surely?

Yeah, I watched this unfold, and thought to myself sheesh (insert other stuff here), but y'know, if we fuck up, we either deny deny deny, or we hold our hands up - no matter how long it takes us to see that we may have been wrong. Sheepguy - you are a top, top man, for sure, no doubt, just one thing - don't let being bitter guide your judgement :) Be bitter, by all means, that's what makes the world go round! But when all is said and done, sometimes it's pretty good to just say: ahhh..... fuck it :)

And I say the above on the premise ccbill etc don't penalise you - which I don't think they will tbh :-)

[SheepGuy]

I'm not bitter, but I have talked to my lawyer and he is willing to take on my case on a commission basis.
I'm not as eager as he is, but I will do it if this has cost me money.

PMB could be proactive on this by sending an email to Paycom and CCBill assuring them that I am not in any way guilty of fraud, and requesting that any black marks be removed from my name.
cc'ing me on the emails back and forth would be a very good idea.
If I am convinced that this has not cost me money I will let it rest. But since I have had no sales or rebills from CCBill since this fiasco started it will take some convincing.

[ecchi]

PMB could be proactive on this by sending an email to Paycom and CCBill assuring them that I am not in any way guilty of fraud, and requesting that any black marks be removed from my name.
I have no idea what the law is in Canada, but in the UK CCBill would have had to notify the credit agencies instantly, and the black mark could not be removed FOR ANY REASON for 6 years. Hopefully this is not the same where you live, but I would check your own credit references in a month or so, to be sure.

[CD Smith]

I seem to recall other program reps and owners jumping the gun and holding the affiliate responsible for something one or more of his referred surfers has done in the way of fraud. I've never been a fan of it. I do like the idea of catching and punishing/penalizing the actual person doing the fraud, but all too often it is the webmaster affiliate who is innocent and otherwise oblivious to what went on.

It's often as simple as the webmaster creates website to promote sponsors, puts up a few links to each one, some idiot surfer clicks one of those links and uses a stolen CC. The webmaster affiliate has no way at all of knowing it happened much less control it.

If you're honest, you build your sites and put up links in good faith in accordance with each program's TOS, and all you can do is hope for the best. It would not sit well with me to be accused of something I didn't do and had zero control over. Nice to see an apology here, which in itself is something not seen enough on threads such as this.