I've Pulled Hardlink Trades - You May Want To Read This

[Preacher]

Ok, my list has been around almost two years and I've always tried to treat people fair. I've given submitters second chances, removed some blacklisted statuses and even taken the time to personally argue my LL rules with foreign submitters who have disagreed via private message.

But lately something has been nagging at me and I feel compelled to take action. When I entered into link trades, it was in the assumed understanding that I would be trading with another webmasters projects that they would keep up to date and active. I know things happen in life and business and plans change, but it is very frustrating when I find that about half of my trades are to linklists with closed submits, haven't been updated in a year, or contain broken images and 404 links.

I spend a lot of time and effort in keeping my sites up to date, and I guess I expect others to do the same.

That being said I have gone ahead and pulled the hardlink trades I had with anyone whose site is no longer being updated or cared for. I have notified almost everyone I had these trades with, except for the one that has been banned from this board. I've even cleaned out my inbox for the surge of complaints I expect to see.

If you have recently asked me for trades and I haven't gotten back to you, it's nothing personal obviously.

[oldbrad]

Thats understandable preacher.

It's just too bad that so many do shit like that, or take links down, or try to cheat. Makes it hard for us honest ones to make trades and submit without having to be a "partner".

You have been more than fair, so if they don't like it and want to complain ... Fuck em. :)

[SheepGuy]

Heya Preacher,
Who wouldn't yank their links?
You've been more than understanding.

[ladydesigner]

This thread has got me thinking that it's time for me to do some spring cleaning on my LL's. I haven't checked my link trades in a while - should be fun. |loony|

[Greenguy]

I need to do that as well...but I'm thinking about being an ass & not telling the other side :D

[ronnie]

Bad enough when free sites pull links or change "sites", but it's even more frustrating when people you thought you could trust do it. Sure don't blame you.

[plateman]

also i like to add and i may sound like a asshole but...

I been rejecting sites that have my recip mixed in with other LL that don't review anymore, take 1 or 2 years to list sites or are closed

I am fair and if it is just a few dead LL recips I wont reject

also I am on the verge of closing public submitts and just giving out so many trusted submitters a url to sub to

its taking me to long to review anymore and makes my day way to long when I figure in building

[Dr Bizzaro]

If you're looking to replace some links, I can trade with my new site: http://www.bizarremovies.com/tgp.html

Let me know if you're interested.

[Greenguy]

If you're looking to replace some links, I can trade with my new site: http://www.bizarremovies.com/tgp.html

Let me know if you're interested.|spam| |couch|

[Dr Bizzaro]

|spam| |couch|

How is that spam, Mr Ball breaker?

He said he's dropping trades. I assume that he'd be looking for new ones.

If I tried to pimp out the awesomely Unique TGP (http://www.exclusively4free.com/e4a/?r=1127160) for E4acash (http://www.e4acash.com/) again, I can understand how that could be considered spammy. |thumb

But Bizarre Movies is my personal site.

[Linkster]

I recently did the same thing - especially with LLs that werent updating etc - although I have to admit I had 2 LLs of my own that werent updating as often as I liked - but they are all caught up now to within 2 weeks of submitting

[bluemoney]

Got me thinking as well . . . but damn you Preacher for adding another item to my "to do list" :D

[spacemanspiff]

I started doing something similar to this back in early February, mainly deleting sites that were penalized or had very old cache dates. I'm going to take that a step further and delete all trades with fake link lists (sites listing only sponsor hosted galleries or free sites), and review sites.

I'll make every effort to contact trade partners but as some were set up via ICQ and/or PM I may not be able to get to everyone. Hopefully posting here will catch most of the trades that fall through the cracks.

[CaptainJSparrow]

Guys, ya'll've saved me from having to start a post. I've spent the last week looking over my link trades and deleting the bad ones. I had some that were trying to install viruses, a bunch that have been penalized by google and have pr=0 on their category pages, and alot that did just what was mentioned above...no new content, changed up the pages to just ads, etc. Hence, be forewarned (Ok, it's really after the fact because I've already pulled'em) I have pulled all links that I thought would be detrimental to my site to be linked to.

[Linkster]

Hmmmm...looks like I have more links to pull now :(

[Useless]

mainly deleting sites that were penalizedWhat's your evidence?

a bunch that have been penalized by google and have pr=0 on their category pagesPR 0 - So what? Penalized? How do you know?

I can never tell if I understand nothing about SEO or more than most.

[plateman]

Guys, ya'll've saved me from having to start a post. I've spent the last week looking over my link trades and deleting the bad ones. I had some that were trying to install viruses, a bunch that have been penalized by google and have pr=0 on their category pages, and alot that did just what was mentioned above...no new content, changed up the pages to just ads, etc. Hence, be forewarned (Ok, it's really after the fact because I've already pulled'em) I have pulled all links that I thought would be detrimental to my site to be linked to.

yeah you pulled my trade, i visit the board and am on icq most everyday and I dont get a message - thats BS

plus the way you have free site submitters sub to you and have them wait a year or 2 while you get backlinks and traffic is also BS

So later dude while I pull your links

[plateman]

who else wants to stop trades or pull links, if you feel froggy jump, I hate to be the one to drag down your site in the serps...

anyone who relies on free traffic from google has built there house on sand!

[Greenguy]

How is that spam, Mr Ball breaker?

He said he's dropping trades. I assume that he'd be looking for new ones...Was it on The Odd Couple? "assume" makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me" :D

Seriously, I wish this board was the kind of place where people that did things like this didn't have to be labeled as spammers, but if I let you do it.....

You'll get the hang of this board thing now that's your an Affiliate Manager (http://www.greenguysboard.com/announcements/07/070411e4acash.html) |thumb

[Greenguy]

What's your evidence?
PR 0 - So what? Penalized? How do you know?

I can never tell if I understand nothing about SEO or more than most.
PR makes people think my dick is bigger :D

Trade traffic, not PR.

[Licker4U]

PR 0 - So what?

Are you saying a site with PR 0 can still have a lot of good traffic? I'm only asking not to question you but because I don't know any of this stuff. Off the cuff I would say PR doesn't mean squat.

[Greenguy]

Are you saying a site with PR 0 can still have a lot of good traffic? I'm only asking not to question you but because I don't know any of this stuff. Off the cuff I would say PR doesn't mean squat.Think of it this way: would you rather have 1000 blind hits from a PR5 site or 1000 legit hits from a PR0 site?

And while I don't believe the PR hype anyway, back when I did, the PR was for the domain & not for individual pages (and this is probably still true, I just don;t care enough to pay attention)

So just because a category (page) has a PR0 should not effect how much traffic it has or the quality of the traffic.

Example:
http://www.link-o-rama.com/greenguy/nipples.htm - PR0
This page has traffic - and more to the point, this page has very targeted traffic.

And as always, with any SE advice (especially from me) this is all just opinion :D

[Bill]

Pulling links without telling people you are pulling them is a dangerous practice.

Captain and Spaceman - I've got a lot of old links with you guys on a number of domains, do I have to sit here and wonder if you are going to fuck me on them, and vampirize relevance from my network of pages?

I'm glad to see you are both reviewing again on your main sites, and have stopped this practice of not reviewing (at least on your main sites).

But this business of dropping links without notice is bad for everybody, and could end up causing a lot of trouble for everybody.

If we can't trust linking partners, if linking becomes an exercise in who betrays who first, where does it stop?

[spacemanspiff]

Read my post Bill. I said I would contact everyone I could find contact information for. I just wanted to make a post here too because looking through a few of the trades I noticed that I don't have an email saved in my trades folder, and there's no contact info on the sites. In retrospect I probably should have insisted that all trades be done through email so there would be a record.

So far the only thing I've deleted are a couple of domains that redirect all the category specific links to the index page, a domain that's parked, and a few that are so over-the-top bad that they just had to go. I sent emails to the webmasters on those. I'm betting they won't even see them.

As regards our other trades, I'm not fooling with them at all, and I would certainly give you a heads up if I ever did.

[Useless]

Are you saying a site with PR 0 can still have a lot of good traffic? I'm only asking not to question you but because I don't know any of this stuff. Off the cuff I would say PR doesn't mean squat.PR is NOT what people think it is. If it was, when you pulled a Google search for any certain term or phrase, the results would be listed by PR in descending order; PR 10s, then PR 9s and so on. PR is not an indication of anything other than PR. :D Do some searches right now and see how PR2s and 3s appear before PR5s and 6s. PR is a form of voodoo to keep you from seeing the truth.

[Bill]

I'm glad to hear that Spaceman, and I want to be clear that i'm reacting to this more as a general subject than worrying about specific links. If I spoke too aggressively or unclearly my apologies.

I still think that dropping links is a risky business. Just the other day I was transforming an old domain and found two links that looked bad - one went to a "domain for sale" page, the other went to a site I didn't recognize at all, one that looked as tho it had been expired and snapped up by domain speculators.

I asked about those names here, and I'm glad I did, because one name turned out to be Linksters and the other Jays - both guys who have been generous with links in the past, and who I am comfortable linking to, no matter what their domains are doing.

If you feel you need to drop a link to protect a domain, and the linker hasn't started downloading viruses or suchlike shit, you ought to consider transfering the link to another of your domains.

(I understand this gets complicated, and like me you probably have many links where you've forgotten who the link is too and where to return link is supposed to be coming from - I'm just saying don't slash-and-burn links without giving it some extra thought.)

Linking is about trust. Once we start breaking down that trust, once people see people like yourself (who have a past reputation for good linking) saying they are dropping links, it starts a process of the legitimization of link dropping for personal benefit that will hurt us all.

I've told people that you and Captain are trustworthy linkers - so if you guys talk of dropping links, that threatens everyone who links. Which is why I feel the need to speak up about it.

[jennym]

yeah you pulled my trade, i visit the board and am on icq most everyday and I dont get a message - thats BS

plus the way you have free site submitters sub to you and have them wait a year or 2 while you get backlinks and traffic is also BS

So later dude while I pull your links

Hey Marc...not trying to pick on you, but you spoke up so I will use this site as an example....don't hate me |couch|

On the 1st of February, I started this (http://greenguysboard.com/board/showthread.php?t=37960)thread. I have not deleted any trades, but have still been trying to figure out what to do about what seem like bad trades to me.

Now for pornoplenty. The amateur page, for example has no PR. Again, I really don't care, other than to wonder why?? That site (and that page) have been online for over 3 years. Also, I cannot find that page indexed in Google. Is this not indicative of a "problem" in Google's eyes. I don't want to be unfair, but I also don't want to lose traffic and money. Something obviously started pissing Google off about my site, and I would like to "fix" it if possible. After all, I am here to make money.

[Useless]

Now for pornoplenty. The amateur page, for example has no PR. Again, I really don't care, other than to wonder why?? That site (and that page) have been online for over 3 years. Also, I cannot find that page indexed in Google.Look again.

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:pornoplentyxxxlinks.com+%22amateur%22&hl=en&safe=off&start=10&sa=N

[jennym]

Look again.

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:pornoplentyxxxlinks.com+%22amateur%22&hl=en&safe=off&start=10&sa=N
Ok, so I see it says it is in the supplemental results. If you just search for the url though, it is not there. Care to explain why???

[Useless]

Ok, so I see it says it is in the supplemental results. If you just search for the url though, it is not there. Care to explain why???No, but if you are a Goolge scholar, why don't you tell us why. ;) Then we'll all understand why you are concerned about the trade.

[jennym]

why don't you tell use why. ;)
Because use hasn't asked me ;)

No, but if you are a Goolge scholar,......
I never claimed to be a Google scholar, which is why I started the original thread. So others, who know WAY more than me, would hopefully explain a few things to me.

Then we'll all understand why you are concerned about the trade.
If you don't understand my concern from my original post, then I'm not sure I can help you.

[plateman]

JennyM

I think it was last summer when a hell of a lot of sites got hit with there category pages loosing PR and going supp. and even a bunch of mainstream sites(I did a lot of reserach on it and so did a lot of others and they found no good reason for it)and it was after that, That google started liking my index page a lot during the summer months

then google did another update in the fall and my google traffic fell way down and since then it's been slowly coming back...

I know it been really bothering me why my category pages are showing no PR, and trust me I been trying to get them back

I really have no agressive cross linking or spam pages out there or nothing like that

I think some of my google short comings are from having to many aff links and I been working on that to see

so give it another BL update and toolbar update and if my category PR dont come back then just drop your links to my site

My index page is a 5 going by the toolbar for those PR whores

[Useless]

If you don't understand my concern from my original post, then I'm not sure I can help you.I don't need help. I roll with the punches. I don't get concerned about the minor BS so many of you spend time tracking. And it is BS. You have nothing to validate your concerns with.

[plateman]

also adult link sites fall out of google grace all the time and for a long time at that, and if the link lists that you traded with, 3 to 4 years ago are worried about the "not banned" fallen out of rank site bringing down there site, then who thats in this for the long haul wants to trade with them...

me and greenguy has link trades all over and did my No PR category pages keep his site from his "Good google luck he has had lately"

NO

whoever wants to quit trading with my site because I have a temp No category - go ahead pull your links

[jennym]

JennyM

I think it was last summer when a hell of a lot of sites got hit with there category pages loosing PR and going supp. and even a bunch of mainstream sites(I did a lot of reserach on it and so did a lot of others and they found no good reason for it)and it was after that, That google started liking my index page a lot during the summer months

then google did another update in the fall and my google traffic fell way down and since then it's been slowly coming back...

I know it been really bothering me why my category pages are showing no PR, and trust me I been trying to get them back

I really have no agressive cross linking or spam pages out there or nothing like that

I think some of my google short comings are from having to many aff links and I been working on that to see

so give it another BL update and toolbar update and if my category PR dont come back then just drop your links to my site

My index page is a 5 going by the toolbar for those PR whores

I don't have a category trade with you, so I haven't pulled any links. Again, I didn't mean for this to come off as attacking you. I am sure you are busting your ass to figure out how to get your PR back, why it's gone, missing your traffic, etc. All I am trying to do is run a successful site that makes me money.


My index page is a 5 going by the toolbar for those PR whores
I traded links with you when your site was barely a month old. How much PR do you think you had????

[ronnie]

Many people talk about not bowing or worring about SE traffic, and it makes some sense, but I have to say personally, when it's good, you sure want more and you don't want to lose it. Just my opinion.

I could be wrong but, I think the point of PR0 sites, was more, not wanting to link to banned sites. Linking to banned sites sure can't be real good for your own site. Then again, how do you tell for sure if a site is banned or not?

[jennym]

I don't need help. I roll with the punches. I don't get concerned about the minor BS so many of you spend time tracking. And it is BS. You have nothing to validate your concerns with.
With all due respect, I don't really need anything to validate my concerns. It is my site, and I decide who to trade with. I could have declined the trade to begin with. So, what? Are you saying if I decide to trade with a site, I am stuck with that trade forever?? Wrong. I haven't deleted any of those trades yet. I am still trying to read up on some things, and hopefully learn some shit. If/when I decide to no longer trade with certain sites, that is my business.

[plateman]

I dont wanna fight and argue with anyone

jennyM were cool

and captain you should have told me and if I sounded harsh then I was just having a bad day

[Licker4U]

Jennym, I don't know squat about SEO but it's already been said that PR really doesn't mean |bullshit| . Why are you worried about linking to a site that has PR 0? I think if they had traffic, and from your stats you can see if they're sending any, that would be enough to keep links up and not worry about it.

[Linkster]

Read my post Bill. I said I would contact everyone I could find contact information for. .


Thats a good outlook - unfortunately I guess there are others that feel that they should just pull links based on their own opinions without notifying anyone and get the benefit derived from having PR3 and 4 category links pointing back to their category pages |crazy|

[CaptainJSparrow]

PR 0 - So what? Penalized? How do you know?

I can never tell if I understand nothing about SEO or more than most.

Useless Warrior the "so what" is that google frowns upon you linking to sites that are penalized and may penalize you for it if you link to enough of them.
How do I know? A page that used to have pr that now does not is a pretty good sign. If they do not show up in the serps, that's another good sign.

I've been doing this for 11 years now and have never pulled links other than when the page that I was linking to either went away, re-directed, tried to install viruses, changed the page that I was linking to to an advertisement, etc. That is the case here with the exception that I am also pulling links to pages that are obviously penalized by google. IMHO the purpose of a link exchange is so that both parties benefit from it. If one party is possibly bringing the other down, then obviously that is not a fair exchange.

Along those lines, if I keep trades to a "bad neighborhood" and hurt my own site obviously I am also not doing right for the other good sites that I'm linking with.

[jennym]

Jennym, I don't know squat about SEO but it's already been said that PR really doesn't mean |bullshit| . Why are you worried about linking to a site that has PR 0? I think if they had traffic, and from your stats you can see if they're sending any, that would be enough to keep links up and not worry about it.
Because most people agree that linking to what Google considers "bad sites" will also "hurt" you Google-wise. We don't always know FOR SURE what sites are bad, but there are indicators. The things I have mentioned here, and in my other thread seem to be indicators. At least that is what *I* believe. And, since it is my site, then what *I* believe matters. |loony|

[Linkster]

That is the case here with the exception that I am also pulling links to pages that are obviously penalized by google. IMHO the purpose of a link exchange is so that both parties benefit from it. If one party is possibly bringing the other down, then obviously that is not a fair exchange.

Along those lines, if I keep trades to a "bad neighborhood" and hurt my own site obviously I am also not doing right for the other good sites that I'm linking with.


Does this mean that you think my LL is now a bad neighborhood since I notice you have pulled all my category trades?

[Surfn]

|popcorn|

[plateman]

Does this mean that you think my LL is now a bad neighborhood since I notice you have pulled all my category trades?

I guess when your a bad neighborhood you dont get no notice

[Bill]

Google rot is affecting the whole adult arena, including some of the biggest people, and has been hitting the midsize and small linlists particularly hard.

We were discussing this in another thread.

There's not a lot of evidence that google rot is caused by "linking to bad neighborhoods", and a lot of evidence that it is caused by:

1. Heavy reciprocal linking.
2. Heavily duplicated anchor text.
3. Lack of one-way incoming links.
4. Heavy phrasing - too many related keywords on pages.
5. As well as the clear fact that by google's standards 99% of all adult sites are spam, because they are affiliate sites whose primary purpose is to drive traffic to sponsors.

The whole form and structure of the midsized or small linklist is just begging to be google-rotted.

But betraying each other because we want to preserve our income is going to fuck us all in the end, because it's not like we don't all want to preserve our income. We're all here to make a profit. If one starts because google is shitting on everybody these days, why should anybody honor their trades?

There has to be a more effective solution, or at least a compromise.

[CaptainJSparrow]

Linkster, I'm looking at my old category link trades and don't see any to linkforsex.com. Is that the domain that you're referring to? For some reason you're listed in the free sites area (not the link exchanges section) of some of my categories, but not all of them. I'm kinda puzzled on this one? How long ago did we do a trade? The only thing that I can think of is that I had a person working for me that may have put your links there instead of the in the link exchange section. I did not pull any links to your site. I'd be happy to add them if you wish.

[jennym]

Bill - I agree with all 5 of the things you posted. I have been trying to address those exact things on my pages recently. The issue I have is that a lot of people consider this all a "bunch of BS". Which, to me, means that they will not do ANYTHING to try to "fix" the problems on their sites. I am just trying to better my site. Like I said, I am trying to see where other people stand on this as well. Not really getting much of a "discussion" though.

[Useless]

I truly enjoy watching people and their knee-jerk reactions to things they cannot possibly quantify. This makes me respect circle jerk TGP owners who bypassed all this nonsense. No need to worry about those pesky and uncooperative search engines.

Preacher created this topic to warn about links he chose to pull due to dead and abandoned sites, not SE voodoo. He has asked me why I don't pursue link trades since I so obviously have very few on my sites. Now he knows why: my fellow webmasters are crazy. I'll stick with whatever the SEs trickle my way and play with purchased traffic, thank you very much.

[plateman]

personally I think that the algo needs to be adjusted for adult sites and I hope in the coming months that it will be

I have been doing things to make my site better for google bot

and I too am gonna look at my trades next as I have trades on my index and trades on my main page

[pornhitzman]

Should we keep trades with categories that are listed in the supplemental index?

[Useless]

Should we keep trades with categories that are listed in the supplemental index?Certainly not! Dump them ASAP. You do NOT want to be associated with such scum.

Here are the golden rules of link trading, which you should all live by:
1. Never trade links with any page which doesn't appear in the first five results of a site:domain.com search.

2. Avoid link trades with domains which have a poor consonant:vowel ratio. Less than 3:1 is considered a questionable ratio by Google.

3. Domains with more than two consecutive vowels are improperly discriminated against by Google. (They are working on this, but for now, you shouldn't trade links with such domains.)

4. Google hates foreigners, and music by the band Foreigner, with the exception of Hot Blooded, though I don't know how that will help.

5. Any site with any page listed as supplemental is to be avoided, EVEN IF they appear to rank very well for quality search terms.

6. Avoid trading links with sites with a lower Alexa ranking than you.

7. Always trade links with domains whose index Page Rank, when added to yours, will be a combined total of "10." (Pay very close attention to this rule and verify the consistency of your trades' PR weekly.)

[pornhitzman]

Certainly not! Dump them ASAP. You do NOT want to be associated with such scum.

Here are the golden rules of link trading, which you should all live by:
1. Never trade links with any page which doesn't appear in the first five results of a site:domain.com search.

2. Avoid link trades with domains which have a poor consonant:vowel ratio. Less than 3:1 is considered a questionable ratio by Google.

3. Domains with more than two consecutive vowels are improperly discriminated against by Google. (They are working on this, but for now, you shouldn't trade links with such domains.)

4. Google hates foreigners, and music by the band Foreigner, with the exception of Hot Blooded, though I don't know how that will help.

5. Any site with any page listed as supplemental is to be avoided, EVEN IF they appear to rank very well for quality search terms.

6. Avoid trading links with sites with a lower Alexa ranking than you.

7. Always trade links with domains whose index Page Rank, when added to yours, will be a combined total of "10." (Pay very close attention to this rule and verify the consistency of your trades' PR weekly.)

You should know that supplemental pages do not rank at all for quality search terms or hardly any terms at all. That's because they are in the supplemental index and not the main index.

[Useless]

You should know that supplemental pages do not rank at all for quality search terms or hardly any terms at all. That's because they are in the supplemental index and not the main index.You should know that Google doesn't really like the song Hot Blooded.

[plateman]

You should know that supplemental pages do not rank at all for quality search terms or hardly any terms at all. That's because they are in the supplemental index and not the main index.

look at all the sites in the main index that dont get any traffic from google

pornhitzman if you think my LL is a risk to your site, pull my links and that we be fine

[pornhitzman]

look at all the sites in the main index that dont get any traffic from google

pornhitzman if you think my LL is a risk to your site, pull my links and that we be fine

I think that google has made a mistake with your site and you'll probably get things back to normal after the next update.

[Bill]

And so we all slip further down the slippery slope of FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt).

Instead of cooperating to create the kind of linking that google is rewarding right now, we try to cut each other's throats in a vain attempt to save ourselves and be the last one standing, without even trying to understand what is actually happening.

This is what the betrayal of linking trust leads to.

When we most need each other, to create unique anchor text, to give each other one-way links, trusting that our partners will fairly give us one way links in return, and keep those links up no matter what happens, we betray each other.

Instead of working on creating more unique and original content, structured the way google's algos now reward, we start an inquisition that takes us nowhere, based on bad information, bad models, and suspicion.

Oh yeah, that's real smart.

[ladydesigner]

Just so y'all know, I guess I'll now be spending the remainder of the day checking my index page trades - wondering who's pulled my links because they fear that some of my pr0 cat pages may rub stink onto their sites. Just what I wanted to do! |banghead|

[Greenguy]

I'd just like to point out that this thread has no PR (not even a PR0)

[DangerDave]

... and I would like to point out that the abbreviation PR is used in medical circles - per rectum - eg: up you arse!

DD

[jennym]

I'd just like to point out that this thread has no PR (not even a PR0)
It shows a PR0 for me. And, I don't think anyone is talking about NEW pages without PR. All of the pages *I* am talking about are YEARS old. I believe most of them HAD PR, but no longer do. Do you not believe that is indicative of a "problem" in Google's eyes??

BTW, I traded with Marc when his site was barely a month old...I would be willing to bet he had no PR.

... and I would like to point out that the abbreviation PR is used in medical circles - per rectum - eg: up you arse!

DD
....and I would like to point out that many people here think you are an arrogant, condescending prick who never "joins" a discussion, but simply degrades everyone you believe to be of inferior intelligence.|yawn|

[spacemanspiff]

....and I would like to point out that many people here think you are an arrogant, condescending prick who never "joins" a discussion, but simply degrades everyone you believe to be of inferior intelligence.

Amen, sister.

[plateman]

man you guys blow shit up to beyond what it is worth

[jennym]

man you guys blow shit up to beyond what it is worth
I am certainly not trying to blow things up. I believe I came in this thread very friendly and have pretty much remained that way. I was trying to have an adult conversation. Hoping to learn something from some of my much smarter peers *cough* Linkster *cough*, and trying to get some thoughts on what other people believed regarding what I posted. I also think that MANY people do not post in these types of threads because people like UW and DD act like assholes and it just isn't worth the aggravation.

If they don't believe in this "SEO hocus pocus crap" then why not do the mature thing and just not join the discussion?

Sorry...kind of went off a little, but god damn...it's like dealing with my kids at work.|loony|

[Surfn]

|popcorn|

[jennym]

|popcorn|
Dammit.....stop making me crave popcorn.|club|

[Bill]

Do you not believe that is indicative of a "problem" in Google's eyes??

Nobody is quite sure what it means, as far as I've been able to determine.

Other than that it started occuring about 16 months ago, and tends to bobble, that is, it comes and goes.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument that it represents a penalty.

The bobble implies that it's a toolbar artifact.

I have many interior pages on my domains that were zeroed out as part of this zeroing trend - including a large number of linked freesites. But in this latest tbpr update about half of them came back, many with higher pr than before. And I had done nothing to improve their linking.

The same with category pages in my private linklists -odd patterns of pages losing pr, then getting it back.

To make it personal to you, let me ask you, when your domains get hit with this strange tbpr bobbling, or maybe some other google phenomenon that we haven't seen yet, you're saying it's perfectly fine with you if all your link partners drop their links to you?

You are reacting to this as if it were a penalty when there is no good evidence that it's a penalty.

What it is evidence of, is that we are dealing with a NEW google. We need to study what it's rewarding and build and link with it's new preferences in mind.

To do that, we need to cooperate. Build value for our surfers, work together to recreate our linking patterns, test new ideas, share knowledge, and trust each other to honor the linking deals we've made.

Why do we need trust? Because it's clear that one-way links are what google rewards now. You can't do one-way linking in business if you don't trust that the people you give links to aren't going to secretly drop their links to you to vampirize your relevance.

[Useless]

If they don't believe in this "SEO hocus pocus crap" then why not do the mature thing and just not join the discussion?When your child is doing something ignorant, like picking his nose and eating it, do you sit idly by and watch, or do you speak up and yell, "stop eating your fucking boogers, you dumb little waterhead"?

Snot is not consumed in my home.

[jennym]

Nobody is quite sure what it means, as far as I've been able to determine.

Other than that it started occuring about 16 months ago, and tends to bobble, that is, it comes and goes.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument that it represents a penalty.

The bobble implies that it's a toolbar artifact.

I have many interior pages on my domains that were zeroed out as part of this zeroing trend - including a large number of linked freesites. But in this latest tbpr update about half of them came back, many with higher pr than before. And I had done nothing to improve their linking.

The same with category pages in my private linklists -odd patterns of pages losing pr, then getting it back.

To make it personal to you, let me ask you, when your domains get hit with this strange tbpr bobbling, or maybe some other google phenomenon that we haven't seen yet, you're saying it's perfectly fine with you if all your link partners drop their links to you?

You are reacting to this as if it were a penalty when there is no good evidence that it's a penalty.

What it is evidence of, is that we are dealing with a NEW google. We need to study what it's rewarding and build and link with it's new preferences in mind.

To do that, we need to cooperate. Build value for our surfers, work together to recreate our linking patterns, test new ideas, share knowledge, and trust each other to honor the linking deals we've made.

Why do we need trust? Because it's clear that one-way links are what google rewards now. You can't do one-way linking in business if you don't trust that the people you give links to aren't going to secretly drop their links to you to vampirize your relevance.

Hi Bill...I appreciate you at least giving your opinions.

First - I think I am far from having knee jerk reactions. I started the other thread over 2 months ago, have joined this discussion, and have not yet removed links.

Second - I had a discussion at length with someone on ICQ last night about figuring out how to make Google happy. It still involved linking with people, but in different ways. I am not just abandoning all my link trades. BTW, I had that (and other) conversations on ICQ because people wanted a calm conversation with me instead of entering into this pissing contest. They contacted me.

Third - I think if there is a problem with my site, and people drop it until that problem is fixed because they believe it harms them, then that would be a wise business decision.

I have never lost PR on any of my internal pages, so I am very unfamiliar with what you are describing. That is why I started the original thread, and joined this one. I am always eager and willing to learn.

[jennym]

When your child is doing something ignorant, like picking his nose and eating it, do you sit idly by and watch, or do you speak up and yell, "stop eating your fucking boogers, you dumb little waterhead"?

Snot is not consumed in my home.
Oh for the love of God we get it. Jesus Christ how does your wife put up with you? I swear I would probably stab you in your sleep.

[Lemmy]

I can't add much SEO science to the discussion (I don't spend much time on SEO boards, and as it has been pointed out elsewhere, unless you're employed by G it's only opinion anyway), but I can share what my LL has been through in the roughly 2 1/2 years it's been online.

It started out with all pages PR0 (naturally). Incrementally index went up to PR4 and almost all cat pages to PR3. Then suddenly ALL cat pages dropped to PR0. Some months later they were all back up to PR2/3. I just checked again and some pages are now PR3, the rest (most) are 0. Index/main page have remained stable. If Google is punishing me, they can't seem to make up their mind.

This leads me to believe the G either
1. Don't have a clue, or
2. Are trying, but can't get it right, or
3. Are changing the rules faster then WMs can catch up, or
4. Any combination of the above.

I try to stay informed of the most common-sense SEO "rules". I no longer aggressively pursue straight reciprocal trades with every Tom, Dick and Harry. I base my trades and whether or not I keep them up on the honesty of the webmaster and the quality of the site. That's about it. I'm off to check on my trades now (haven't done it in a looong time). :D

[plateman]

jennym we have a index trade and thats good

me and captainJ had index and category and I got pissed off that he dropped my cat links without even a message, so thats ok

and if he would of said "man I think your no PR condition is affecting my ranking - I would of happily said take the links down and see what happens, and thats it....no hard feelings...we still have a index trade

and these trades are years old he atleast could have asked what happened to my pages and I could have told him I added 15 category pages all at once and my other pages didnt carry over any PR juice or I think its a toolbar error... or the same thing thats happening to 1000s of other legit webmasters

and I had category PR for years


me and spaceman have index and category on one of his LL - thats ok


and what bill was saying about his pages and free sites are doing the same thing as mine

the people were gonna partner with in link trades should get togther and work out a new scheme that google likes...

but pulling peoples links behind there back is plain wrong


and I dont no why you two insulted DD?

[jennym]

jennym we have a index trade and thats good

me and captainJ had index and category and I got pissed off that he dropped my cat links without even a message, so thats ok


and these trades are years old he atleast could have asked what happened to my pages and I could have told him I added 15 category pages all at once and my other pages didnt carry over any PR juice or I think its a toolbar error... or the same thing thats happening to 1000s of other legit webmasters

and I had category PR for years


me and spaceman have index and category on one of his LL - thats ok
and if he would of said "man I think your no PR condition is affecting my ranking - I would of happily said take the links down and see what happens, and thats it....no hard feelings...we still have a index trade


and what bill was saying about his pages and free sites are doing the same thing as mine

the people were gonna partner with in link trades should get togther and work out a new scheme that google likes...

but pulling peoples links behind there back is plain wrong


and I dont no why you two insulted DD?

I have noticed people losing PR. That seemed like a "penalty" to me. I just wanted to discuss what other people thought. The only time I have pulled links and didn't inform someone is if they had already voided the trade (by removing the pages we were trading with) or if they were installing crap. That has only been a few sites in the 8 years the site has been up. I would love to get together with people and work out a new linking deal. I am in the middle of re-vamping all of my pages, but anyone who is interested in this should ICQ/email/PM me after next week. Having said that, I still believe that some of my trades are worthless/harmful and I will be checking them all next week.

As for DD, that is twice that I have seen in the last week he has jumped in a thread, not to have an adult conversation, but to degrade the person asking questions. The other thread is here (http://greenguysboard.com/board/showthread.php?t=39480)
Of course, he has pretty much always been like that, and I can't fucking stand him. It might be petty of me, but that is how I feel.

This board is supposed to be a community where people can talk about various ideas, thoughts, and opinions. Instead, it has pretty much turned into a high school clique board where many people are afraid to post their honest thoughts and opinions for fear of being attacked. But, I digress.....

[plateman]

I can't add much SEO science to the discussion (I don't spend much time on SEO boards, and as it has been pointed out elsewhere, unless you're employed by G it's only opinion anyway), but I can share what my LL has been through in the roughly 2 1/2 years it's been online.

It started out with all pages PR0 (naturally). Incrementally index went up to PR4 and almost all cat pages to PR3. Then suddenly ALL cat pages dropped to PR0. Some months later they were all back up to PR2/3. I just checked again and some pages are now PR3, the rest (most) are 0. Index/main page have remained stable. If Google is punishing me, they can't seem to make up their mind.

This leads me to believe the G either
1. Don't have a clue, or
2. Are trying, but can't get it right, or
3. Are changing the rules faster then WMs can catch up, or
4. Any combination of the above.

I try to stay informed of the most common-sense SEO "rules". I no longer aggressively pursue straight reciprocal trades with every Tom, Dick and Harry. I base my trades and whether or not I keep them up on the honesty of the webmaster and the quality of the site. That's about it. I'm off to check on my trades now (haven't done it in a looong time). :D

I read a lot of stuff and you hear some saying that googles algo is out of control and its so fucked up that they cant even get it right again

also with the recip style linking going to the way side, just think of all those free sites we have on our LL not giving us next to nothing back as far as linking power goes, you see 1000s of free sites that dropped PR and so did the passing of link juice

age of site and one way linking from editoral sites that tell people how good our sites are and other factors is what is needed to do good in google, some seo experts say

with the newer algo a LL around the age of my site has next to nothing of a chance of doing really really good in google right now IMO

[Bill]

I have never lost PR on any of my internal pages, so I am very unfamiliar with what you are describing. That is why I started the original thread, and joined this one. I am always eager and willing to learn.

Well, when i first noticed this occuring months ago I surfed thru my trades and studied how it affected the se networks of a bunch of my trading partners.

That takes me into the network of sites of about a dozen of the biggest se builders here, including dean & jeff (and their network may include your se domains, if you have many domains beyond your primary ll), linkster, jay, gg & mml, and others.

I saw interior pages that I beleived had pr zeroed out everywhere I went. Their was no-one who was immune to it.

(I can't always be sure that interior zeros had been hit by this, that is, they might have been zeros before, but I have surfed all these folks sites multiple times over the years, I'm quite sure that I saw plenty of "main" pages off the index zeroed, plus all or most of the minor pages. on domain after domain.)

Plus, of course, the small linklists and subsidiary sites of all the small linklist owners here, almost all or many of whom have had the interior zeros at some point, as has been discussed here a fair number of times in the past 16 months.

So, if you haven't seen it, I don't know what to tell you. Go over your domains and friend's domains and look for it. It's happening as we speak.

---

I gather you feel that your linklist offers such unique value to the surfers that you can afford to say "fuck you" to other webmasters, and you don't think you will gain the rep of a linkdropper from this. That's your position, that's your right.

My position is that this is a dangerous road, and, to boot, it's not a solution to this problem.

I'm not a linklist owner. If you guys want to start a linkdropping war it's not that big a deal to me.

I am a linker, and for as long as I've been a linker, the general opinion has been that linkdropping is something only cheaters do.

[jennym]

I gather you feel that your linklist offers such unique value to the surfers that you can afford to say "fuck you" to other webmasters, and you don't think you will gain the rep of a linkdropper from this. That's your position, that's your right.

My position is that this is a dangerous road, and, to boot, it's not a solution to this problem.

I'm not a linklist owner. If you guys want to start a linkdropping war it's not that big a deal to me.

I am a linker, and for as long as I've been a linker, the general opinion has been that linkdropping is something only cheaters do.
Did you not read the multiple times I have said I haven't pulled any links over this? So if I no longer want to trade, and I email someone and inform them I no longer want to trade, then I am a cheater? That's a bit dramatic don't you think? I don't think my LL is special at all....that's the problem.

I believe I have always been very polite to people who have come at me politely. I really try not to get involved in drama and pissing. I just asked for opinions. I don't ever like to make enemies. That being said, at the end of the day, I am here to make money. I have children to feed and clothe and put through college. I really can't worry about hurt feelings. And, I think it is childish to have hurt feelings over a business discussion anyway.

[Useless]

Oh for the love of God we get it. Jesus Christ how does your wife put up with you? She's an aethiest.
I swear I would probably stab you in your sleep.If I knew you were willing to sleep with me, I probably would have tried a softer approach. ;)

[Maj. Stress]

I can't add much SEO science to the discussion (I don't spend much time on SEO boards, and as it has been pointed out elsewhere, unless you're employed by G it's only opinion anyway), but I can share what my LL has been through in the roughly 2 1/2 years it's been online.

It started out with all pages PR0 (naturally). Incrementally index went up to PR4 and almost all cat pages to PR3. Then suddenly ALL cat pages dropped to PR0. Some months later they were all back up to PR2/3. I just checked again and some pages are now PR3, the rest (most) are 0. Index/main page have remained stable. If Google is punishing me, they can't seem to make up their mind.

This leads me to believe the G either
1. Don't have a clue, or
2. Are trying, but can't get it right, or
3. Are changing the rules faster then WMs can catch up, or
4. Any combination of the above.

I try to stay informed of the most common-sense SEO "rules". I no longer aggressively pursue straight reciprocal trades with every Tom, Dick and Harry. I base my trades and whether or not I keep them up on the honesty of the webmaster and the quality of the site. That's about it. I'm off to check on my trades now (haven't done it in a looong time). :D

I've seen pretty much the same thing over the past few months and it looks like a few others have too. I never gave it a second thought. I figure I'm in a transition period. It's biz as usual for me. I'm not losing any sleep over something I can't control or know how to. :)

[Preacher]

The few responses I have received from my notices have been positive ones because the webmasters know that they had closed submits or stopped updating and totally understood where I was coming from and I thank them all for that. |thumb

And I gave |greenguy| something to talk about on Tuesday night so you should all be thanking me or all we'd hear about is hi-def programming and hockey results!

[Bill]

Did you not read the multiple times I have said I haven't pulled any links over this? So if I no longer want to trade, and I email someone and inform them I no longer want to trade, then I am a cheater? That's a bit dramatic don't you think?

Ahhhhhh, my sincere apologies if I misunderstood. I must have misremembered you as saying that you had dropped links. It must have been someone else. I stand corrected, and doubly apologize.

I was mixing up my general concerns about the trust required for linking, and your specific case.

I just want to speak strongly about the importance of linking agreements, and I was concerned that your talk and examples were going to start a panic about linking, about who's cool and who's not, and get people started on a cycle of punitive and quiet linkdropping.

[jennym]

The few responses I have received from my notices have been positive ones because the webmasters know that they had closed submits or stopped updating and totally understood where I was coming from and I thank them all for that. |thumb

Glad to hear they understood |thumb

And I gave |greenguy| something to talk about on Tuesday night so you should all be thanking me or all we'd hear about is hi-def programming and hockey results!
|bow|

Ahhhhhh, my sincere apologies if I misunderstood. I must have misremembered you as saying that you had dropped links. It must have been someone else. I stand corrected, and doubly apologize.

I was mixing up my general concerns about the trust required for linking, and your specific case.

I just want to speak strongly about the importance of linking agreements, and I was concerned that your talk and examples were going to start a panic about linking, about who's cool and who's not, and get people started on a cycle of punitive and quiet linkdropping.
No worries, just want people to understand that. I have only dropped about 6 or 7 links in about 8 years I think, and none of them had anything to do with this. I will re-evaluate everything in the next week or so and decide what to do then. Rest assured, if I intend to drop any links, I will make every effort to contact the other party.

[oldbrad]

I just started using the google webmaster tools to check how it see's my sites. Not sure if it would show why it may be ranking your sites different, at least as far as tbpr, but have you guys tried using it to see what they see?

[plateman]

yeah jennyM since my no PR pages are aired out to the public how about yours....you said you didnt have any

http://adultlinkpost.com/nude-redhead02.htm cashe date feb 2nd 07

captainJ has them also http://debauchery.com/free-sex-pics-teens_2.html 0 PR and a march cashe date

young and teen girl all over the place, maybe thats why is has a 0 pr google assumes its a bad neighborhood:D

you be surprised who all has supp pages and no pr pages and free sites now since google is a cock

[dallasdeb]

....and I would like to point out that many people here think you are an arrogant, condescending prick who never "joins" a discussion, but simply degrades everyone you believe to be of inferior intelligence.|yawn|


|haha

I thought his post was funny. I thought the other post was hilarious.
When did you lose your sense of humor?

[CaptainJSparrow]

Plateman, I don't get you. You attack, then apologize, then attack again. You keep making references to me because I pulled your link. Hell man, your whole site, except for your index page, has got some sort of problem. Sorry, it's not my fault that something happened to your site. If I knew what it was, I'd certainly tell you, but I don't. Read my original post in this thread.

Guys, ya'll've saved me from having to start a post. I've spent the last week looking over my link trades and deleting the bad ones. I had some that were trying to install viruses, a bunch that have been penalized by google and have pr=0 on their category pages, and alot that did just what was mentioned above...no new content, changed up the pages to just ads, etc. Hence, be forewarned (Ok, it's really after the fact because I've already pulled'em) I have pulled all links that I thought would be detrimental to my site to be linked to.

I was going to start a post letting folks know that I pulled some bad pages from my links section. I had no intention of doing it and not bringing it to their attention...just the fact that I posted here shows that. Most of what I pulled had the same kind of things that Preacher pulled when he started this thread.

Yes Plateman, I pulled the links to your category pages, in my judgement they have the potential to be detrimental to my site. I don't know this for sure and I had no intention of broadcasting this to everyone...you did that. Had you PM'd me I would've been glad to share everything that I know, and my theories, with you, and explain why I felt it necessary to pull the links to your category pages.

Now you're going to "throw shit at the fan" and try to point out that I have some pr=0 pages? You are correct. The particular page that you pointed out is a secondary page for that section that I created recently. It has currently has no incoming links so I doubt that it has a penalty from Google. I do have 26 pages in the supplemental index...let's not forget about that. Do you know how many you have in the supplemental index? I do. Matter of fact, that weighed more in my decision to pull the links to your category pages than the pr=0.

My intent was not to attack you, or bring up your dirty laundry in public. Understand, I am not obligated to link with you nor do I need your permission to pull your links. All that honor dictates is that I let you know about it and this post certainly meets that.

[jennym]

yeah jennyM since my no PR pages are aired out to the public how about yours....you said you didnt have any

http://adultlinkpost.com/nude-redhead02.htm cashe date feb 2nd 07

captainJ has them also http://debauchery.com/free-sex-pics-teens_2.html 0 PR and a march cashe date

young and teen girl all over the place, maybe thats why is has a 0 pr google assumes its a bad neighborhood:D

you be surprised who all has supp pages and no pr pages and free sites now since google is a cock
You are kidding me right?? You did all of that research just to show a couple of pages that were CREATED in January?? I believe I said I had never LOST PR...not that I didn't have any pages that were PR0. And, a cache date of Feb 2nd on a page created the end of Jan is not too bad...wouldn't you agree?

[plateman]

captainJ I am pulling the index trade we have

jennyM the same thing

spaceman the same thing

and thats it, I just dont wanna link to your sites anymore

[jennym]

|haha

I thought his post was funny. I thought the other post was hilarious.
When did you lose your sense of humor?
Honestly, if I thought for one second he meant it as amusement, it would have been funny. But IMO, DD is like that bitter, lonely old man in the neighborhood who hates all the kids and hollers at them from his front door. With every post he has ever made, he comes across and rude and condescending. He is honestly the one person on this board that I can not stand, so maybe I am a little sensitive to his posts. I can admit that:D

[jennym]

captainJ I am pulling the index trade we have

jennyM the same thing

spaceman the same thing

and thats it, I just dont wanna link to your sites anymore
I really can't believe people act this way over a business discussion. I never once dissed you or your sites. But...whatever. Your links have been pulled. Don't forget we traded on main page and submit page as well.

[CaptainJSparrow]

No prob plateman. I truly hope your site loses it's penalty and that you end up doing well.

[plateman]

I really can't believe people act this way over a business discussion. I never once dissed you or your sites. But...whatever. Your links have been pulled. Don't forget we traded on main page and submit page as well.
Yup I know all gone here

[plateman]

No prob plateman. I truly hope your site loses it's penalty and that you end up doing well.

its not a penalty read what matt cutts says about

As a reminder, supplemental results aren’t something to be afraid of; I’ve got pages from my site in the supplemental results, for example. A complete software rewrite of the infrastructure for supplemental results launched in Summer o’ 2005, and the supplemental results continue to get fresher. Having urls in the supplemental results doesn’t mean that you have some sort of penalty at all; the main determinant of whether a url is in our main web index or in the supplemental index is PageRank. If you used to have pages in our main web index and now they’re in the supplemental results, a good hypothesis is that we might not be counting links to your pages with the same weight as we have in the past. The approach I’d recommend in that case is to use solid white-hat SEO to get high-quality links (e.g. editorially given by other sites on the basis of merit).

[Useless]

Honesty, from the bottom of my heart, with every bit of sincerity that I can conjure forth, I truly hope that you all continue to ignore Bill's advice and allow your little lists to crumble. I could really use that very minor boost in traffic. |boobies|

My new slogan: Live by Google. Die by Google.

[plateman]

You are kidding me right?? You did all of that research just to show a couple of pages that were CREATED in January?? I believe I said I had never LOST PR...not that I didn't have any pages that were PR0. And, a cache date of Feb 2nd on a page created the end of Jan is not too bad...wouldn't you agree?

well If you created that page in jan going by your group it's already penilized

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:http://adultlinkpost.com/&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

adultlinkpost.com/nude-redhead02.htm - 23k - Supplemental Result

[jennym]

its not a penalty read what matt cutts says about

Having urls in the supplemental results doesn’t mean that you have some sort of penalty at all; the main determinant of whether a url is in our main web index or in the supplemental index is PageRank. If you used to have pages in our main web index and now they’re in the supplemental results, a good hypothesis is that we might not be counting links to your pages with the same weight as we have in the past. The approach I’d recommend in that case is to use solid white-hat SEO to get high-quality links (e.g. editorially given by other sites on the basis of merit).
I am sorry, but that sounds EXACTLY like a penalty to me.|huh
Not necessarily a "you are doing something bad" penalty, but a "we are doing something different, and don't like this" penalty from Google.
You seem to think for some reason this is personal, and that couldn't be further from the truth. I am truly sorry you felt personally attacked. I simply wanted to have a nice business discussion, and find out what others were thinking. Unfortunately, very few people participated in the discussion, and it turned into an emotional debate instead of a business one.

[jennym]

well If you created that page in jan going by your group it's already penilized

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:http://adultlinkpost.com/&hl=en&start=10&sa=N

adultlinkpost.com/nude-redhead02.htm - 23k - Supplemental Result
LOL
Based on the info YOU supplied, the supplemental is based on PR. That page hasn't achieved PR yet, therefore being in the SI is no biggie. My other BRAND NEW pages are there as well.

[plateman]

LOL
Based on the info YOU supplied, the supplemental is based on PR. That page hasn't achieved PR yet, therefore being in the SI is no biggie. My other BRAND NEW pages are there as well.

we will see I am done posting to PR bots

[Surfn]

|haha

I thought his post was funny. I thought the other post was hilarious.
When did you lose your sense of humor?

|boobies|

[Jel]

An interesting read for sure. As of a few weeks ago I've been trying to think of a way to change my existing trades that are recipricol into a>b>c trades, with my new LL being the 'C' link. Unfortunately it means work on the part of my link partners changing links they have to my old(er) LL to the new one.

As a general question that might even get a bit lost within this thread, is it safe to assume that generally speaking people would be ok doing some changes on their LLs to benefit both parties by creating a>b>c links, which definitely seems to be what Google prefers?

I'd hate to open another can of worms and piss off my existing trades by asking them to point my links they have up to another page and create a 'fuck me Jel is more trouble trading with than it's worth' scenario.

For the record, some of my internal pages on cfnmparty.co.uk have recently gone to PR0 and show in supplemental results. So I've probably been dropped by some anyway :D

[Greenguy]

...And I gave |greenguy| something to talk about on Tuesday night so you should all be thanking me or all we'd hear about is hi-def programming and hockey results!Oh now that's just not right! |catfight|

And I'm moving all thaqt stuff to my blog |thumb

...and I would like to point out that many people here think you are an arrogant, condescending prick who never "joins" a discussion, but simply degrades everyone you believe to be of inferior intelligence.|yawn|While that may be true, I have to admit, the guy knows his shit.

[Linkster]

the guy knows his shit.


That is very true - and fortunately one of the nicest guys Ive worked with in the industry |thumb

Oh...and HI DEB!!!! |waves|

[plateman]

That is very true - and fortunately one of the nicest guys Ive worked with in the industry |thumb

Oh...and HI DEB!!!! |waves|

yup he is, DD is good people in my book and the friends of his that I know are too

[jennym]

Since this thread is obviously not going to be productive, I will make a few comments, and bow out.

That is very true - and fortunately one of the nicest guys Ive worked with in the industry |thumb

I have never said DD was an idiot. I just have a problem with his delivery. He basically comes in, says "all of you are fucking idiots" and leaves. That being said, I am sure he has been pleasant in personal dealings with some people.
However.......
yup he is, DD is good people in my book and the friends of his that I know are too
He is great? All his friends are great? This just comes off as typical message board ass licking.

Since it is obvious from this thread that I can be a bitch, :D I will concede that fact. But, I am not here to kiss ass or stroke egos. I will bring up what I think is a discussion worthy topic. And, if I believe I am doing the right thing, I will defend it to the end. At the end of the day, there will be those that disagree, and that is fine with me. There are certainly no hard feelings on my end over a business discussion. I won't pull links, decline sites, or be a bitch to someone in the future based on a message board disagreement. It certainly wouldn't have caused me to pull plateman's links. If any of you feel differently, then you should back up, take a deep breath, and maybe come back later.|thumb

On that note....happy Friday the 13th to all|bananna|

[plateman]

Since this thread is obviously not going to be productive, I will make a few comments, and bow out.


I have never said DD was an idiot. I just have a problem with his delivery. He basically comes in, says "all of you are fucking idiots" and leaves. That being said, I am sure he has been pleasant in personal dealings with some people.
However.......

He is great? All his friends are great? This just comes off as typical message board ass licking.

Since it is obvious from this thread that I can be a bitch, :D I will concede that fact. But, I am not here to kiss ass or stroke egos. I will bring up what I think is a discussion worthy topic. And, if I believe I am doing the right thing, I will defend it to the end. At the end of the day, there will be those that disagree, and that is fine with me. There are certainly no hard feelings on my end over a business discussion. I won't pull links, decline sites, or be a bitch to someone in the future based on a message board disagreement. It certainly wouldn't have caused me to pull plateman's links. If any of you feel differently, then you should back up, take a deep breath, and maybe come back later.|thumb

On that note....happy Friday the 13th to all|bananna|

why is that linkster can say dave is a nice guy and so on, but I can't and am called a ass kisser and stroker?

I should have pulled the links and moved on and told you guys to kiss my fuckin ass a lot of posts ago

[Useless]

Where else in the world is being in agreement considered ass kissing? Of course, it's always the person who disagrees who calls it that.

There have been many, many occasions where it has been insinuated that I kiss GG's or DD's ass. Trust me, there's no point in that. They see through it and don't respect it. And anyone who is a regular reader of this board has seen me openly disagree with both. I just don't call them cocksuckers or cunts during the argument. :D

Back to the point - during SE discussions here, I have read that the sites which link to you may be as important as who you link to. BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that where one's pages fall in the results is of any great impact. Losing those inbound links, in my opinion, is more likely to cause you problems than maintaining them; assuming those sites are not SE spammers.

Steady as she goes is my rule of thumb.

If you think you are declining in the SEs, you should probably look internally instead of assuming that its the fault of your linking partners. Hell, an improperly setup, or unhealthy, server can cause you huge issues when the bots come-a-knocking. If you are not failing in the SEs, then there's probably little point to this conversation.

[Linkster]

Reviving this one - just got an email today - site is edited out but thought it was interesting that they considered the fact that other sites might leave links up to them after they pull all outgoing link trades - more interesting is that when I visited the LL I noticed that they had broken their categories down into pae 1, 2 etc and no cat link trades were on the first cat page at all - and this is before they started pulling links???

"Hi,

We really appreciate the link exchanges that you have done with us over the past years.

We have some link lists that are performing poorly in the Google SERPS and we're trying to figure out why. We've looked at a lot of on-site factors and made adjustments without much effect so far. We're now looking at the off-site factors that we think may effect rankings. This is not a "knee-jerk" reaction. We've been studying and experimenting since October on sites that started trending down at that time.

We think that google may have identified certain sites as part of a link farm (for lack of a better phrase). We think that this link farm consists of somewhere between 50 and 100 sites. If you look at the SERPS and go to the back (the 1000th result) and start looking forward you'll see a lot of pages from sites that are part of the same group of link exchanges. We not saying that these sites constitute a link farm in the usual sense like free-4-all schemes, but that Google may have tightened up their definition of link farms.

We are conducting an SEO experiment to see if we can identify this as the case. To do this, we are going to pull links to all sites on site. We are doing this because we really have no way of telling which sites/pages Google considers part of this link farm and which are not. We want to let Google spider this site for a few weeks and see that it is no longer linking to the same group of sites, then see what effect this has on our placement in the SERPS. We're not making any statements as to whether any sites are penalized or artificially dampened.

We apologize for the inconvenience that this may cause you. We encourage you to watch the SERPS to see if our experiment works. Please feel free to contact us at any time and we will gladly share our thoughts and findings with you.

We certainly understand if you want to pull your links to our site. It may help you to do this...we just don't know at this point. We own close to 400 sites and the only links we're pulling are the ones on site edited out.

As you know, sometimes SEO is just trial and error. A lot of the webmasters that we've spoken to have expressed the same concerns about linking to a big group of sites that all tend to link to each other. The only way to find out is by experimentation. This is what we are doing, we are trying something and letting all of our link exchange partners know up front so you too can watch the results, and hopefully benefit from this experiment too.

We are not ruling out putting links back on this site after the experiment...we just want to give it some time with no link exchanges on this one site to see what happens.

Again, thanks in advance for your patience and understanding."

[Linkster]

Funny thing is this very same site that sent out this email has evidently already pulled the cat trades - but their second page of links - which is where I assumed they put the link trades isnt there - and the free site submitters arent going to be happy with this:
"robots" content="noindex,nofollow - on the cat pages after the newest page

[Bill]

I like how they say, "Your sites and links may be considered part of a link farm (but our _four hundred_ sites are innocent victims.)".

[Bill]

The experiment, however, is a valid one. It would be interesting to see what happens.

However, since they know that not everyone will get around to dropping their links, they know the experiment is invalid because of all the inbounds. Naturally if you kill the reciprocals by dropping the outgoings from your page, increasing the number of oneway incomings, you're going to enjoy a short burst of relevance at other peoples expense.

So, lets say that the experiment _would_ be a valid one, if everybody jumps quick and kills all their links to that domain.

[Surfn]

Funny thing is this very same site that sent out this email has evidently already pulled the cat trades - but their second page of links - which is where I assumed they put the link trades isnt there - and the free site submitters arent going to be happy with this:
"robots" content="noindex,nofollow - on the cat pages after the newest page

Interesting...

[plateman]

it really sorta good that this going down like this and see what LL owners are gonna start stabbing in the back

plus all the old LL that enjoyed years and years of a good income from google and thought they would never loose it was wrong, if you cant afford to loose a few LL se traffic that you own for a while then you didnt choose your biz model well...

I know for one I am gonna contact a few other LL's that I have index trades with to dissolve them, when I see prolly over a 100 hardlink trades on a index that IMO is a link farm

[Linkster]

The whole issue here is that anyone can interpret Google's definition of a link farm - I guess all those blogs out there that recip link on their first pages willnow be considered link farms if you follow the same theory to its conclusion - add to that that there are many LLs and TGPs in the top 100 that have exactly the same structure (and link partners) the whole concept falls apart

[Surfn]

I have never pulled an honest working link trade and have no plans to begin such a practice.

Of course I don't have the huge trades I see on many sites these days...I prefer old school trade partners.

[DangerDave]

Hahaha.. Linkster you should name them! I know that I want to know who they are so that I can make sure I avoid them!

People need to stop blaming Google and other sites for their 'misfortune', and concentrate on their own 'work'. Additionally they should start ignoring all these theorists that only come up with crap to explain their own stupidity or laziness.

The "rules" for ranking well in google have not changed in years since it arrived.

If you have regularly updated relevant and informative content you will rank well.
If you have and continue to gain incoming links to your sites from other quality and relevant sites you will rank well.
Do both and you will out rank everyone, and who you link to will have absolutely no influence on anything..

Based on some peoples theories, if Microsft linked to Plateman then Microsoft's ranking would fall.. What a crock of shit

Hi JennyM |waves| - is that arrogant enuff for you!?

DD

[Maj. Stress]

The "rules" for ranking well in google have not changed in years since it arrived.
DD

While the core basics have pretty much remained the same, how they are interpreted has changed and continues to change. This can be said for other large search engines also.

[ronnie]

I got the same e-mail as Linkster and I was thinking the same way as Bill. I also was hit up on ICQ by another webmaster saying basically the same thing. I was going to start a thread the other day, see how many people are doing this, as one person told me "many" webmasters are taking about this, though I've only seen a couple mention it.

Like Bill is saying, how many webmasters are not going to get the links down right away. Also, how many won't even know about it? And why are these people not posting on the boards to try and let every one know?

[plateman]

someone pm me the LL that is doing this or hit me up

[bluemoney]

The "rules" for ranking well in google have not changed in years since it arrived.

If you have regularly updated relevant and informative content you will rank well.
If you have and continue to gain incoming links to your sites from other quality and relevant sites you will rank well.
Do both and you will out rank everyone, and who you link to will have absolutely no influence on anything..
I agree
And that's worth printing out . . hint hint

[Licker4U]

Based on some peoples theories, if Microsft linked to Plateman then Microsoft's ranking would fall.. What a crock of shit
DD

I read an article recently and I wish I could remember where it is but I can't. It addresses this issue, to a degree. A web site can't be penalized due to the sites that linkt to the site because the site doesn't have any control over what sites link to it. (Think D*sney is going to be penalized because porn sites link to it? Not a chance. D*sney has no control over who links to them) On the other hand, if there is a recip link in place, would that make a difference? I don't know anything about a site being penalized but it would seem that if two sites exchange links and they both have relevant content, i.e. a Lesbian cat. page linking to a Lesbian cat. page, then that would be a good link exchange.

[plateman]

I just noticed I missed removing a link to one of captain J sparrows network "sex on the internet" http://sexontheinternet.com/

I checked my trades a good while after this thread and my LL and sex on the internet were still reciped
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-01,GGLD:en&q=link:http%3a%2f%2fsexontheinternet%2ecom%2f

not now, but look I am still linked to him, and you can't tell me he didnt know it....look at all the radical seo he done to his network....he played me for a fool...and lots of other LL's by pulling there links and NOT telling hardly any of them....

he also fucked over the webmasters who submitted to him in the past that had to wait 6 months or a year to get listed if they were lucky...

you guys remember....

sure we had it out about the category trades that HE dropped from my LL and others, but was burns my ass is he didnt have the common courtesy to tell me he is pulling the links on "sex on the internet"

captain j - you are a slime ball snake in the grass no good cock sucker

SO GO FUCK YOURSELF

[NY Jester]

Wow, thats some pretty harsh words..couldnt this of been done in a PM?

[Useless]

Note to self: plateman is a very angry individual.

|couch|

[CaptainJSparrow]

Plateman? Sorry, do I know you? FYI, on sexontheinternet I didn't mess with any links, a webmaster working for our company did that and to my knowledge he let the folks that had link trades on that site know about it prior to doing it. I don't work that site at all, never have.

CJS

[CaptainJSparrow]

Note to self: plateman is a very angry individual.

Uw, that comment cracked me up! |loony|

CJS

[plateman]

Plateman? Sorry, do I know you? FYI, on sexontheinternet I didn't mess with any links, a webmaster working for our company did that and to my knowledge he let the folks that had link trades on that site know about it prior to doing it. I don't work that site at all, never have.

CJS
I never had anyone contact me, our link trading is over, so have a nice fuckin day

[HarryM]

My link trades were also removed without my knowlege from debauchery.com, adultlinkpost.com and 1-free-sex-and-porn-pics.com.

I didn't really care, I just removed them, no big deal - but if I got dumped from google, I'd be looking at my own site first.

How long do you think these 1990's style sites are going to last?
We're all guilty of it, un-natural link trades, trading for PR, A-B-C schemes, invalid html, dumping your link trades, trying to game google with forum knowledge.
From now on I'm just trying to build a good site. I'm glad they dumped my links.

[SheepGuy]

My link trades were also removed without my knowlege from debauchery.com, adultlinkpost.com and 1-free-sex-and-porn-pics.com.

I didn't really care, I just removed them, no big deal - but if I got dumped from google, I'd be looking at my own site first.

How long do you think these 1990's style sites are going to last?
We're all guilty of it, un-natural link trades, trading for PR, A-B-C schemes, invalid html, dumping your link trades, trying to game google with forum knowledge.
From now on I'm just trying to build a good site. I'm glad they dumped my links.

That's kinda my philosophy. I don't do trades with google in mind and I haven't done any trades with Captain. No particular reason, it's just never come up in discussion. I like to trade traffic, but not script based, and I have a lot of hard link trades I'm likely losing on. so be it.

I really don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, and that addle-minded short sighted strategy seems to work well for me ;)

And if a trade goes really bad, like I'm dropped, fuckit, I just know not to deal with the dropper again. I don't waste much time getting angry.
Life is too short to not just move on.

[LeRoy]

Yah all this fuss from my favorite LL's |cry| Geez can't we all get along here? Is there a communication breakdown or something? Let's take a moment and count to 10.

I completely agree with you Preacher. And you are coming correct by pulling the links.

Being new to the game. I'm a one way link to you type of guy. I'm thinkin if you list my freesites. I then put your category page on my category page across my little 12 site, 6 blog network I'm building. Should I be askin you guys first? Or keep doing what I'm doing? I'm guessing people love one way links. Stop me if I'm crazy.

I know there is no traffic coming from that hub just yet. but some day maybe you guys might receive better SEO rankings from me and my hub. So going full circle If my freesites or paysites are on your list. Then I am the one benefiting from the work hehehehe. This is my grassroots type of approach. Plus I just love the the good feeling of success when starting in the trenches.

Just my .02

and thanks for the free traffic too :D . I'm getting tons of it from you guys.