Do we, as an adult webmaster community, oppose supporting adult versions of YouTube?

[Greenguy]

I've read 3 separate threads on the topic so far this morning:
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/showthread.php?t=39291
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/showthread.php?t=39294
http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/showthread.php?t=39281

In each, I posted, assuming that we, as an adult webmaster community, oppose these type of site.

I understand that they are legal & that's not much we can do about them, but that doesn't mean we have to support them.

I think we've talked about this in the past (I can't find the thread) but if I remember correctly, the general consensus was that sites like this are of little or no benefit to the JoeBlow webmasters that we have here on the board. (most of us are in the Link List/Free Site and/or TGP/Gallery business)

So before I continue with my "this board is not for you" mindset when I reply to these threads, I'd like to know if I'm right in my thinking.

Please vote as well as post comments/questions |shake|

[Pendo]

too much free porn can't be good. I don't support them.

[Fonz]

I'm split but leaning over to the NO side more since it's giving away more free porn again but with less advertising possibilities for us small webmasters than let's say freesites or TGP galleries.

If you can put your watermark on the movies it might be another opportunity to get some people over to your site. But then again I can imagine it's not the greatest traffic ever...

I tested it once and am still waiting for the loads of traffic to come in :)

[MrMaryLou]

The only benefit would be to a pay site owner if any at all and just because of the watermarks on the movies. I really don't see it making money for anyone at all, other than a chance of a surfer typing in a URL from a movie but then again why would they if there is a never ending supply of movies. :(

[Greenguy]

...If you can put your watermark on the movies it might be another opportunity to get some people over to your site. But then again I can imagine it's not the greatest traffic ever...I think that was one of the few Pros that we came up with - assuming you have your own exclusive content, then you could slap your domain on the movie & get traffic that way.

I know that there's a few paysite owners & webmasters that produce their own content and if they wanted to try it & support it, that's their business (but I think that most of those - that I know anyway - would not support this)

[Jim]

I really don't see any benefit to anyone other than the people that own these sites and the sponsors. Assuming that adult programs go the same route as TV networks (except viacom). They will be happy to provide the video clips. And really, who can blame them?

But sooner or later, these youtube type sites are going to see that they are offering too much for free and adjust. Freesites didn't start out with only a few pictures. They started with 5 - 30 Thousand and saw money slipping through their (our) fingers.

[Jim]

Oh yeah, I am kind of torn on the vote. If they were done right with tiny clips, I think they would work well for everyone and be a good source of traffic. But as they are now, they just offer way too much. I guess I will have to vote "no".

[Useless]

I know that there's a few paysite owners & webmasters that produce their own content and if they wanted to try it & support it, that's their business (but I think that most of those - that I know anyway - would not support this)I fully support their right to find innovative ways to promote their own sites, but they should not be advertising them or discussing them on webmaster boards. It's sort of a fuck you to affiliate webmasters. I realize they don't mean it that way, but really, if you are openly discussing such projects, which exclude affiliates, on a webmaster board, it's a fuck you.

I may not know what works ;), but I do know what does not work. Posting lengthy video clips of your exclusive content without a glaringly large adjoining tour link is asinine.

Also, why is it, if we create free sites/galleries with their content, we are allowed to promote only their paysite on those pages, yet they'll allow their movie clips to be viewed on a tube site where the predominant advertising is that of OTHER sites? Hmmm...

[JustRobert]

I voted NO.

I understand a paysite owner may want to use every resource they could to sell as well. Hoping the watermarks bring someone over to buy. I am a small fish and even I think somtimes that I give away to much free stuff with tgp and linklists. Still fall under the old thought of tease them with free and let the paysites please. Unfortunately I feel I am in the minority on this and may need to change. But untill they can come to a difinite agreement with 2257 and secondary producers I will stick to teasing nudes :)

[docholly]

ON behalf of one of my camhoes, I submit clips to a site called clips4sale.. they are anywhere between 120-240 seconds each depending on the material presented. While I know this isn't a "free" porn site, it's amazing the number of people who purchase clips. I think it would be much MORE effective if program owners wanted traffic to do it in these little sound bytes and sell them for 1.99 or whatever. then the surfer gets a "taste" and if they want more, go buy a membership.

On the weird porn surfer note: Monday a guy purchased 75.00 worth of 180 second clips. He could have bought a monthly membership to the website for 24.99 and gotten all 150 full length videos.

Soo NO to the free Adult YouTube

[plateman]

I oppose it, as more and more surfers find out about these sites, coupled with file sharing programs, this can only mean less money for us webmasters

sure the owners are making money off of some of the traffic on those sites....but those kind of sites are taking the traffic from the real sites that make us money like the LL and tgps and so on

[emmanuelle]

free porn = free porn = free porn

[Toby]

I have a problem with any kind of site based on surfer uploaded adult content. A significant percentage will always be unauthorized by the legit content owners. They'll give you the old line, "we pull all unauthorized copyrighted content as soon as we're notified." Sorry, in my opinion, that's not good enough.

[LowryBigwood]

The only benefit would be to a pay site owner if any at all and just because of the watermarks on the movies. I really don't see it making money for anyone at all, other than a chance of a surfer typing in a URL from a movie but then again why would they if there is a never ending supply of movies. :(

I came very close to setting up a youtube type of adult site about 6 months back but ended up deciding against it. Mainly for the reason Toby mentioned about user uploaded content and 2257 worries.

Anyhow, they don't have to type in your url, you can embed a linked watermark to your site just like the youtube guys. So if they click on that watermark, it'll pop a new window sending em your way. The only benefit I can really see is I believe it would be a good way to gain traffic, but then again I am betting most them aren't going to buy porn anyways. But, I don't know..

I voted NO.

[Tommy]

you guys are a bunch of hypocrytes

I have seen so many webmasters defend porn by claiming free speech but now that their income could be threatened free speech doesn't matter so much

to much free porn is no good for the business but of course those very same webmasters are putting porn on the web for free.
but of course they are putting out just the right amount of free porn, so its ok


ohh and lets not forget the copyright BS
that's like telling Ford they cant build cars cause some of them might be used as get away cars to rob banks

you would starve technical innovation and progress because somebody might violate a copyright. what if they said that about the Internet as whole back in 1995

99.9 percent of adult content owners never bother to file any copyrights

[LowryBigwood]

I think that was one of the few Pros that we came up with - assuming you have your own exclusive content, then you could slap your domain on the movie & get traffic that way.

I don't think you would even need your own content Greenie. The surfers upload their videos, but when they embed the movie player onto their other pages or share them, then your watermark/logo is linked back to your site anyhow.

Which is why i worried about user uploaded content and 2257 as Toby stated.

[Greenguy]

you guys are a bunch of hypocrytes

I have seen so many webmasters defend porn by claiming free speech but now that their income could be threatened free speech doesn't matter so much

to much free porn is no good for the business but of course those very same webmasters are putting porn on the web for free.
but of course they are putting out just the right amount of free porn, so its ok


ohh and lets not forget the copyright BS
that's like telling Ford they cant build cars cause some of them might be used as get away cars to rob banks

you would starve technical innovation and progress because somebody might violate a copyright. what if they said that about the Internet as whole back in 1995

99.9 percent of adult content owners never bother to file any copyrights

You're missing the point - we all know it has legit uses.

What I'm trying to see is that if my feelings are the same as most of the people on this board (aka community) as far as not supporting it.

Understanding something is completely different than supporting it & I find it really hard to understand how you could support something that would teach surfers that they don't need Link Lists or TGPs, seeing as you own one of the biggest out there.

[Greenguy]

I don't think you would even need your own content Greenie. The surfers upload their videos, but when they embed the movie player onto their other pages or share them, then your watermark/logo is linked back to your site anyhow.

Which is why i worried about user uploaded content and 2257 as Toby stated.
Technically, that's a secondary issue & not really a major concern of anyone that doesn't own the copyright's. The very legit versions of these that (claim) do not allow copyrighted material to be posted unless you own the copyright.

So in a world where all the content has permission to be posted, that would bring us back to my main point :)

[Greenguy]

I know it's only about 2.5 hours into the thread, but I am happy to see the 1/17/1 vote so far :)

[Tommy]

You're missing the point - we all know it has legit uses.

What I'm trying to see is that if my feelings are the same as most of the people on this board (aka community) as far as not supporting it.

Understanding something is completely different than supporting it & I find it really hard to understand how you could support something that would teach surfers that they don't need Link Lists or TGPs, seeing as you own one of the biggest out there.

I am not missing the point. I really think you are

you don't like it cause it might cost you some money

the company's that sold pay phones said the same thing about cell phones they were wrong then and you are wrong now

millions of companies or people have been put out of work because of progress should we have banned computers back in the 70s or ban robots today

just cause I make my living from a link list doesn't mean I am gonna turn myself into a hypocrite

so basically your argument is
my free porn is OK but theirs isn't cause I make less money

[ClickBuster]

I support FLV and video stream as a solution replacing video download, which is the format most of the Tube sites use.

I personally use some of those sites to put automated content on my pages allowing people to directly stream the content off there.

However, I do not support full length videos to be posted on such sites, which one of the common practices at Bad Jojo for example. There're clips with over 5 minutes of play time as well as full length videos split into several parts - that way the distribution method becomes no different than warez, P2P, torrents, etc.

If done correctly to the webmaster community I see no offense in this kind of sites. I personally think that PornoTube may be quite useful for skillful webmasters in order to bring new traffic to their sites or help add new content to their existing pages.

One of the things I like about Tube sites is that you can create FLV content for your pages, but if you publish it on a Tube site you get free hosting (if you'd rather link to a remotely hosted video) and extra exposure from the site's visitors.

There's and there will be more than enough free content. However, I don't think it matters nowdays. Savvy people have their ways to get full-length videos without paying - there're more than enough pass sites and mIRC channels out there for the looking, not to mention everything else.

Tube sites are just another version to display free content. From my POV it's the more advanced and up-to-day method to do it and I think that most of the users would prefer it, instead of browsing differently looking, unstandartisized pages. Not to mention the community features of that kind of sites, which IMHO seriously lacks on TGP and LinkList sites.

I jerk off quite a lot to know that it's much better to go and click 2 times to watch a video, that's going to start immediately and even if it's only 2 mins long it's much better than going thru tens of pages to find something fitting my needs :)

[Useless]

I don't see tube sites as progress. There is nothing new about the way in which they stream video. Hell, it's not even a good business model. Everything I've heard is that the ROI is very low and that dealing with the barrage of copyright and other legal issues is a huge pain in the balls.

I think most of us are anti-tube for the same reason we are against free sites with 1k pics on them. We should, as a community, have some type of barometer of how much free porn is too much compared to the amount of advertising the surfer must confront.

[ClickBuster]

Also let me add a few other points before I go:

1. SE traffic is not built by hosting videos
2. The traffic quality of TGPs is MOSTLY low
3. All of us expose the surfers to huge amounts of free content
4. Most people don't know what FLV is, nor how to save it on their PCs, but all galleries and free sites allow you to download the files on your PC
5. Tube sites are mostly filled with freeloaders

What I'm saying is - it's the same thing. The difference is in the technology used to get the content to the surfers and like it or not - Tube sites are more up to date than TGPs and LLs.

The thruth is in between, never in the ends. Some would say it's in the gray spectrum :)

[ClickBuster]

I think most of us are anti-tube for the same reason we are against free sites with 1k pics on them. We should, as a community, have some type of barometer of how much free porn is too much compared to the amount of advertising the surfer must confront.
True, but who cares about tons of videos when after watching 5 crappy video one after another you just close the site and move on to the next one. Peope who are serious porn buyers care about the quality of delivered free porn, not the amounts. IMHO it's always like that, no matter the industry.

[Useless]

True, but who cares about tons of videos when after watching 5 crappy video one after another you just close the site and move on to the next one. Peope who are serious porn buyers care about the quality of delivered free porn, not the amounts. IMHO it's always like that, no matter the industry.I realize what surfers prefer to have. ;) But we're supposed to convince them to pay to get the higher quality, not give it to them so they have no motivation to purchase. We give them lower quality samples, plenty of advertising, and tell them to join if they want the full-sized, full length, crystal clear, hi-def whatevers.

I understand what you are saying about TGPs and Link Lists compared to the tube sites. TGPs and Link Lists have been a very static model for quite awhile, but I'd vastly prefer see them evolve, and I think there is room for that, rather than seeing tubes handing out buckets of video clips without having the proper advertising:content ratio.

[ClickBuster]

Fuck I lost the message by clicking on the back button by mistake. So again...

IMHO in 90% of the time there're 3 types of buyers:

1. Noobs - that have no previous buying experience
2. Savvy buyers - looking for serious support of the product they're buying
3. Dedicated surfers - these're the people bookmarking your sites

The last 2 types are what I'd refer to as quality traffic and both of them require content quality, not quantity.

Buyers are not interested in free porn. They need sources to find what's worth watching and what's not. They hold account of the time they spend looking for quality, which is why they usually stick to using a bunch of selected and verified sources, instead of browsing tons of free galleries.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I certainly don't think that I know everything and I would greatly appreciate any correction if required.

[Greenguy]

I am not missing the point. I really think you are

you don't like it cause it might cost you some money

the company's that sold pay phones said the same thing about cell phones they were wrong then and you are wrong now

millions of companies or people have been put out of work because of progress should we have banned computers back in the 70s or ban robots today

just cause I make my living from a link list doesn't mean I am gonna turn myself into a hypocrite

so basically your argument is
my free porn is OK but theirs isn't cause I make less money
No, for the love of |buddy| I'm saying that I don't SUPPORT it. While I understand it & I see how it could be valuable to some people, that does not mean that I have to support it.

Based on all the examples you're posted, do you think that the companies that had the old technology helped/supported the new technology?

If you want to support it, go nuts. When someone figures out how to attach an affiliate program to it (and they will) make sure you sign up & put a big banner on the index & main pages of your site. Here's the text you can use under it:
Don't bother surfing these free sites & galleries! Click Here for all the free porn movies you can handle! And then delete all your bookmarks, including this one, because my site sucks compared to the free movies you'll get at Free-Video-Site

[Tommy]

My site dont suck |bananna|

in fact i have always thought its like the best out there :D

nobody puts up more movie links in a day then I do
http://www.tommys-bookmarks.com/movie.shtml

just scroll through the new section

in fact i bet you could lump a bunch of LLs or tgps together and I would still be putting up more movie links

[Jim]

Tommy, what is the maximum length of a movie clip you will accept? I think that is the biggest difference. You can have a ton of movies as long as they are short enough to make a surfer want more.

[ClickBuster]

LOL!

I'm from Bulgaria, a country from the Ex-Soviet Block. I haven't lived enough under communism to argue about it, but I do know that this thread reminds me a lot about it.

[plateman]

it dont take much to see if those sites grow and spawn new sites that it's gonna kill us affiliates

its bad enough we gotta post free porn to generate traffic

now we have to compete with a tube site that has people giving away more porn for the hell of it...

ratios are bad enough anymore, and if you do find a good site that converts good it don't last its getting harder and harder to see sales anymore

how would a big traffic site like tommys and the hun would "like" to loose half there traffic cause those tube sites have grown and spawned and have clips 8 to 15 min long....those tube sites would have some serious hosting bill but they would have tons of traffic to sell spots and have ads to and rake in the bucks for the owners

then all of the 1000s of people like us suffer with worse ratios and lower traffic cause we cant compete with them

also you could say those tube site surfers are freeloaders??

how many surfers come to our sites and say to themselfs "today I am gonna join a site" hardly any but a good site sells the surfer a membership

those tube sites are just another way to loose sales and traffic to the big money people that put those sites up!!! you think the guys that put up youtube and porntube were poor, they had money and backing imo

[Greenguy]

...nobody puts up more movie links in a day then I do
http://www.tommys-bookmarks.com/movie.shtml...You're sorta helping to prove my point :) You income model is linking to your own galleries/free sites as well as those of other webmasters. How does that fit into what I think we will now refer to as "tube sites"?

(and your site doesn't suck - I tell friends to go there instead if mine :D)

[Kinky]

I voted yes, I support porn, competition or not, the only porn I would ever not support involves underage stuff...

all they are doing is giving away better free porn than we are via a different business model, it might piss you off but that is what they are doing.

it's already been concluded that they have a right to exist, so as an adult webmaster community should we only support our own exact way of adult webmastering, and only when we don't think it will harm our bank accounts?

full file sharing among surfers isn't new by any means, it is just getting easier for them to share their collections now, and better some tube sites run by people in the industry than P2P sharing that is spreading viruses and malware all over the world and underground file sharing sites where all the illegal stuff gets mixed in with all of our legal stuff and BAM! the adult industry is a bunch of dirty CP pushing scumbags... it doesn't matter where the porn comes from, it matters where it ends up because we get the blame for all of it and any outlet that can be policed by the industry is a good one IMO

[Maj. Stress]

I think if an adult tube type site got as popular as "you tube", it could draw more negative publicity to our industry. Then we have congressmen trying to pass new laws and it all ends up in the courts again. This industry has more than it's share of legal battles. No need to throw gas on the fire.

[Toby]

It's the surfer upload part that I have issue with. Regardless of whether the site is "controlled" by "people in the industry" or not. Due to the sheer numbers there is simply no way to effectively police all of that content.

[Kinky]

so we should openly ridicule everybody involved with tube porn on GG&Jim then??? just because they have a different business model?

this isn't about whether you like/dislike tube sites, it's about running off people who came to this community looking for help...

one person asked about a script for sharing, you could do alot of cool things with a script like that and who knows wtf they were gonna do with it, and why shouldn't they be able to find a script?

somebody asked about advertising for a tube site, and XXXJay posted here because he probably knows that this isn't just a LL/TGP board and that some people here who own/run programs and sites might want a different source of traffic...

which part of that should they be run off for, what am I missing? feel free to hate tube sites into the ground if you want but why hate on the people just for being associated with them in some way, shape, or form, hell even just asking about them? I hate "porn blogs" to no end but I don't treat people that blog, or in this industry make what i call "lie logs" to attract surfers...

I guess maybe GG needs to elaborate on what he means by support, send them free traffic and links, no, treat people who like or use them bad simply for that fact, well I vote no to that too....

[DangerDave]

As long as there is lots of gagging and abuse.... I am all for it! |thumb|

DD

[Useless]

it's already been concluded that they have a right to exist, so as an adult webmaster community should we only support our own exact way of adult webmastering, and only when we don't think it will harm our bank accounts? Well, yes. This isn't a chamber of commerce. ;)

[Greenguy]

I think if an adult tube type site got as popular as "you tube", it could draw more negative publicity to our industry...Not that it's an accurate gauge, but go look at pornotube.com on Alexa - it's already very popular.

It's the surfer upload part that I have issue with. Regardless of whether the site is "controlled" by "people in the industry" or not. Due to the sheer numbers there is simply no way to effectively police all of that content.That's their problem (and hopefully the police it enough so that they don't get sued)

...I guess maybe GG needs to elaborate on what he means by support, send them free traffic and links, no, treat people who like or use them bad simply for that fact, well I vote no to that too....After I read you're 1st post, I realized that "support" has more than one meaning.

Of course I support their right to do it, but I will not support them by helping to find scripts or ads or programs that might want to use it.

Why would I (and 75% of the board members that voted) want to help/assist a concept that would negatively effect our current business models?

[GonZo]

you guys are a bunch of hypocrytes

I have seen so many webmasters defend porn by claiming free speech but now that their income could be threatened free speech doesn't matter so much

to much free porn is no good for the business but of course those very same webmasters are putting porn on the web for free.
but of course they are putting out just the right amount of free porn, so its ok


ohh and lets not forget the copyright BS
that's like telling Ford they cant build cars cause some of them might be used as get away cars to rob banks

you would starve technical innovation and progress because somebody might violate a copyright. what if they said that about the Internet as whole back in 1995

99.9 percent of adult content owners never bother to file any copyrights

Amen brother.

[Toby]

99.9 percent of adult content owners never bother to file any copyrightsYou don't have to file in order to have copyright. All original work is copyrighted at the time of it's creation. The only thing to gain by filing is that you're in a much better position to prove the work is yours should you actually go to court, and you're also eligible for treble damages.

[Jim]

Gonzo
I have to admit, out of most of them, pornotube seems to be doing it right. There seems to less than 40 second video clips vs the 10 min clips I saw yesterday on lesser "tube" sites.

I did just see some 1.5 min clips. But still, way short of the 10 min clips from yesterday. And, I have not found anything other than sponsor content. Of course there are way too many clips to look at them all.

[GonZo]

Gonzo
I have to admit, out of most of them, pornotube seems to be doing it right. There seems to less than 40 second video clips vs the 10 min clips I saw yesterday on lesser "tube" sites.

I did just see some 1.5 min clips. But still, way short of the 10 min clips from yesterday. And, I have not found anything other than sponsor content. Of course there are way too many clips to look at them all.

Pornotube is a very powerful tool for those that want to learn how to use it properly. If your a site / program owner I encourage you to contact your AEBN rep to find out how they can put it to work for you.

I know there was a plan to eliminate all the long video clips and stolen content.

[Greenguy]

Pornotube is a very powerful tool for those that want to learn how to use it properly. If your a site / program owner I encourage you to contact your AEBN rep to find out how they can put it to work for you...Great. Thanks a lot. Thanks for posting the ONE FUCKING THING I WAS TRYING TO AVOID DOING ON THE BOARD.

[spazlabz]

Here is an idea that maybe we should consider trying before condemning this type of marketing outright.

Would any of you be interested in using a clone of this type of thing if it was a hosted one by your sponsor? Lets say with advertisements all over the pages for the various sites the sponsor has and all with your link code automatically in every link.

This way the viral video thing is there but it is all hosted, you just direct your traffic there and the sponsors would be responsible for the duration of the clips and how each is pushed.


spaz

[Useless]

Would any of you be interested in using a clone of this type of thing if it was a hosted one by your sponsor? Lets say with advertisements all over the pages for the various sites the sponsor has and all with your link code automatically in every link.Not at all. :(

I don't intend on sending surfers to any SINGLE page where they can be easily fed all the free movies they need.

Here's the gauntlet - slip it on. I challenge all sponsors who think tube sites are a good marketing concept to create your own such clone. Pack it full of your movie clips. I don't care if they're 15 seconds or 150 seconds. Push your traffic to that for a few months and watch your ROI drop. Go for it! What you'll discover is that surfers sit there from 10-60 minutes at a time. And you'll see a much lower click-thru ratio than that of TGP galleries or free sites. Much, much lower. (Just don't ask me to help you with bandwidth bill.) If you're still willing to ask affiliates to send traffic to it AFTER your own in-house tests, I'll assume you have great big balls simply packed full of crazy juice.

Also, make sure you hire the same non-English speaking designers to create your ads as you do on your hosted galleries. |thumb

[Toby]

Not at all. :(

I don't intend on sending surfers to any SINGLE page where they can be easily fed all the free movies they need.

Here's the gauntlet - slip it on. I challenge all sponsors who think tube sites are a good marketing concept to create your own such clone. Pack it full of your movie clips. I don't care if they're 15 seconds or 150 seconds. Push your traffic to that for a few months and watch your ROI drop. Go for it! What you'll discover is that surfers sit there from 10-60 minutes at a time. And you'll see a much lower click-thru ratio than that of TGP galleries or free sites. Much, much lower. (Just don't ask me to help you with bandwidth bill.) If you're still willing to ask affiliates to send traffic to it AFTER your own in-house tests, I'll assume you have great big balls simply packed full of crazy juice.

Also, make sure you hire the same non-English speaking designers to create your ads as you do on your hosted galleries. |thumb
|gabbo| |gabbo| |gabbo| |gabbo| |halfgabbo

[Greenguy]

Here is an idea that maybe we should consider trying before condemning this type of marketing outright....That's still teaching the surfer how to find a boatload of free movies.

***

Good post Useless |thumb

[spazlabz]

That's still teaching the surfer how to find a boatload of free movies.

***

Good post Useless |thumb

That wasn't a good post from useless, it was shit. There I said it. I floated an idea, did it have merit or not? Near as I can tell it gave useless the chance to be what he is.

Allow me to quote my own post if I may
Would any of you be interested in using a clone of this type of thing if it was a hosted one by your sponsor? Lets say with advertisements all over the pages for the various sites the sponsor has and all with your link code automatically in every link.

and pay special attention to the words I prefaced the idea with
Would any of you be interested in
it required a yes or no and maybe a bit of an explanation as to why it would be something some would or would not be interested in.

You know, I come here and try to get business done and have since GG&J kicked open its door and I have been proud of my participation in many very high quality threads. But seriously Useless Warriors constant sarcasm and shitty remarks has just worn me down to the point where I just don't have any fucking time for his silliness any longer.

spaz

[spazlabz]

That's still teaching the surfer how to find a boatload of free movies.

***

Good post Useless |thumb

cool one point i failed to point out in my last post. exactly how it is different then an MGP, Blog or any other marketing technique we use collectively. It seems that it is another way to put sales text in front of the eyes of traffic. How many free movie clips are on link-o-rama?

i guarantee there is more on your site alone then 8 clips from every single one of the 14 sites we have... well maybe not Virgin Films because that site has a pretty impressive number of videos but STILL. I am talking about another way for affiliates to diversify how they work their traffic and my understanding is there are very few who can marry one method and make really good money in it.

so please tell me how a sponsor hosted tube clone is any worse then LL, MGPs, TGPs or any other method that gives away free content.


spaz

[Greenguy]

...so please tell me how a sponsor hosted tube clone is any worse then LL, MGPs, TGPs or any other method that gives away free content...Those are all the same business model.

I'd bet that most surfers don't know the difference between a free site or a gallery or a link list or a tgp or a mgp - they just know where to go to find links to porn.

Tube sites are a completely different business model that teaches the surfer that when they see a tube site, they can get a shitload of movies for free.

If you wanted to open one up & attach an affiliate program to it, go nuts. I would not promote it, but I understand why you'd want to do it.

Useless's post is probably how most (currently 75% of us) feel right now.

Out of the 7 YES votes, 5 are people affiliated with paysites/programs - that's fine by me - I'm not gonna help you get a tube site off the ground, but I'm not bashing anyone for exploring different ways to generate revenue (just like I would not bash a program for taking an ad out in a magazine)

[ClickBuster]

Not at all. :(

I don't intend on sending surfers to any SINGLE page where they can be easily fed all the free movies they need.

Here's the gauntlet - slip it on. I challenge all sponsors who think tube sites are a good marketing concept to create your own such clone. Pack it full of your movie clips. I don't care if they're 15 seconds or 150 seconds. Push your traffic to that for a few months and watch your ROI drop. Go for it! What you'll discover is that surfers sit there from 10-60 minutes at a time. And you'll see a much lower click-thru ratio than that of TGP galleries or free sites. Much, much lower. (Just don't ask me to help you with bandwidth bill.) If you're still willing to ask affiliates to send traffic to it AFTER your own in-house tests, I'll assume you have great big balls simply packed full of crazy juice.

Also, make sure you hire the same non-English speaking designers to create your ads as you do on your hosted galleries. |thumb

How can you be 100% sure about that, since the vids on most of the Tube sites push different domains, watermarked in the video or after that? I bet that many of the potential customers type in the domain name of the site without going thru any ref codes and such.

I think the best way to find out is to start publishing vids promoting your own domain and see how that converts.

[Useless]

I think the best way to find out is to start publishing vids promoting your own domain and see how that converts.It's all about the ROI, or lack there of. Sure, they'll be a limited amount of type-in traffic. Everything I've read about tube sites reports of a struggle to stay afloat. Can they be profitable? Of course. But the ROI is typically much lower than that of other mediums.

I truly fear for the sponsor's wallet that decides to launch a hosted tube clone for affiliate traffic. If you're paying out 50-60% or worse - $35PPS - you'll find bandwidth costs, even in this age of cheap BW, to be horribly cumbersome. Click-thru-wise, it'll potentially have a lower value than those damnable surfer boards where they post 25 hosted vid galleries in a single post. The surfer gets all he/she needs [of a site's content] in one spot.

[sabin]

An adult youtube is bound to happen, rather than fight it, lets just saturate it with 20 sec clicks with our urls and report stolen full length videos. At the end of the day, its another source of traffic.

[LowryBigwood]

Would any of you be interested in using a clone of this type of thing if it was a hosted one by your sponsor? Lets say with advertisements all over the pages for the various sites the sponsor has and all with your link code automatically in every link.

This way the viral video thing is there but it is all hosted, you just direct your traffic there and the sponsors would be responsible for the duration of the clips and how each is pushed.


spaz

Ok, I first voted "no" but only b/c of user uploaded content/2257 worries. I do not have anything against the technology or people giving away more free clips, and I really don't see how others can sit here and talk about giving away an unlimitited supply of movies. WTF? You can get that now, no problem...

Anyways, as for myself, yes I would be interested in hosted / shared movies with the viral effect you are describing. What's not to like about that from a webmasters point of view? I do understand it is a different business model, but I for one am not afraid of changing with the times.

Also, I really don't think the bandwidth concern for the sponsor bothers me one bit. It's not my bill, so knock yourself out. I'll try promoting it most likely. |couch|

[spazlabz]

An adult youtube is bound to happen, rather than fight it, lets just saturate it with 20 sec clicks with our urls and report stolen full length videos. At the end of the day, its another source of traffic.

Its already happened and been around for a i think a year or better


spaz

[bluebrit]

I voted no to this and probably always would. Even though it’s a source for free porn and i could add links to my sites through it, it’s too extensive and it’s probably going to be more than enough for most surfers to get off on. That being the case their never going to pay for something they can get free. Taking a step back though why do i feel like that?

Most people who have any interest in porn either from curiosity or from a real interest in buying, when purchasing their first pc will by the end of the first day have looked for porn to see how much of it is out there.

Chances are they would just type in sex or porn, tits or twats... makes no difference, they're going to get plenty of links to the content they want to see. If the tube is the one of the first places they come across they will be so flooded with free links they're unlikely to ever look anywhere else and with the amount of free content available they probably wouldn't bother paying for something they can get there for free. While i'm all for advertising porn and the availability of it, I don't want to see so much free porn given away. It's bad for all concerned when at the end of the day were looking to get surfers to pay for the content. Take this further and you will get to a point where virtually every niche will be available free of charge and once you reach that point you may as well pack your bags and find a new business plan or go bust. Free porn is the perfect tool to advertise a pay sites potential to the surfer in the hope of getting that all elusive sale because they want the content, their curious as hell to see more, or their genuinely into it and it’s a very unusual niche. Giving them a supply of endless links to free porn for that category or niche can't be productive if it's never going to generate sales. You want them curious, turned on and willing to buy, not swamped with a plethora of choice regarding which link they should look at next. Curiosity and a hardon are what sell, if their getting their kicks from thousands of free links to images or videos where is the sale in that? Looking at battle hardened surfers who have already paid for content it works slightly differently. They have already seen the sponsor site and know what’s available. They know what they want and they know where to get it. Again you find that surfer going to free porn through the tube and even though their not getting exclusive content neither are they tied to one sponsors content but they gain access too virtually all of them. The quality may not be as good and the length of movies may not be as long but given the diversity of choice they could stay on the free porn a long time before getting bored and deciding to pay for it once again if ever. They could decide I get my kicks here and I get porn movies on cable so why do I need to buy more porn? Either way it’s not hard to see this leading to a probable drop in sales both for affiliates and sponsors alike.

Maybe i'm wrong in the way i look at this... just my 2cents worth.

[xxxjay]

I really don't see any benefit to anyone other than the people that own these sites and the sponsors. Assuming that adult programs go the same route as TV networks (except viacom). They will be happy to provide the video clips. And really, who can blame them?

But sooner or later, these youtube type sites are going to see that they are offering too much for free and adjust. Freesites didn't start out with only a few pictures. They started with 5 - 30 Thousand and saw money slipping through their (our) fingers.


the traffic for every video on mine goes to the sponsor that posted it

[emmanuelle]

Out of the 7 YES votes, 5 are people affiliated with paysites/programs - that's fine by me -


I voted yes, and it has nothing to do with having paysites of my own. I feel much the same way as Tommy posted. If I support free porn whatsoever, I'd be a hypocrite to come down on newer free porn enterprises that don't necessarily fit my business model. I have trouble with the concept of it being ok as long as it's within X # of parameters. As posted above, free porn = free porn = free porn

[tickler]

Still undecided yet, so I haven't voted.

The ideal of sponsor hosted tubes has me thinking that maybe something along the concept of ImageVenue, FileCloud, etc.

I post a thumb in a surfer forum, and they goto a page with a sample clip. filled with ads with my affiliate codes might be interesting.

[oldbrad]

I support the right for each person to make their own decisions for their own site, but dont think it's going to be good for affiliates to the same sites. It is, however, better than the rapidshare sites listing hundreds of full length 30 minute movies.

[Greenguy]

I voted yes, and it has nothing to do with having paysites of my own. I feel much the same way as Tommy posted. If I support free porn whatsoever, I'd be a hypocrite to come down on newer free porn enterprises that don't necessarily fit my business model. I have trouble with the concept of it being ok as long as it's within X # of parameters. As posted above, free porn = free porn = free pornLet me ask you this: can you think of anything that has (or would) negatively effected your business model that you had (or would) supported/endorsed?

[SheepGuy]

I've always been opposed to free porn, but I don't live in a cave so I've adapted. I didn't vote, because it's none of my business, and it wouldn't make any difference anyways.
I disagree with it as a business model, I think it's short sighted, but I said the same thing about TGP's years ago. I was wrong then, I may be wrong now.
Live and let live, if I have to adapt I'll do my damndest to do so, right now I'm not particularly worried.
The sky always sems to be falling in this biz, I've gotten somewhat immune to worrying.

[tickler]

It is, however, better than the rapidshare sites listing hundreds of full length 30 minute movies.
Full length 30 minute movies. I remember a discussion on the SoloGirlBoad about a few WMs asking Steve Lightspeed if there might be any bounties for identifying different places that were full site/DVD scrapes.

Hell, if I want to check out a new sponsor, I'll probably check out some of their DVDs(via RS or clones) before I start throwing PPC traffic at them. A lot of sponsors don't give you that much access if you are a newbie just asking. I don't know how many sponsors I have asked over the years to give me screen caps of their members area to use as an enticement for for surfers to join, and been turned down.

[JoeBlack]

Their will always be someone to support these programs so it doesnt really matter what we think. If these programs make the users money there going to use them plain and simple. Everyone here can say their against it but then go set up a pornotube account under another name and domain. Business models and all these things sound great but if one of these webmasters needs money to pay for food or meds or whatever for there family there going to use these sites and there is nothing we can or should do about it.

Webmasters went from putting random links up to sponsor sites to making picture link list and now there movie link list who decides whats next and ok?

This is a business and a great one and I hope it last forever but if we cant adapt to the changes that are coming then I dont know what we will do.

I do agree tho that some people are showing way to much but like I said theres nothing we can do about it.

So my stand point on it is how can you stop the internet ?

[walrus]

I voted no.

It's not that I think adult video sharing sites are bad and couldn't be an advantageous business model.

I just don't see this board, this community, as the proper place for it.

[Useless]

hy·poc·ri·sy (hĭ-pŏk'rĭ-sē)

-The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
-An act or instance of such falseness.
-A show or expression of feelings or beliefs one does not actually hold or possess.
-deceitfulness, pretense
-Insincerity by pretending to have qualities or beliefs not really held.
-An expression of agreement that is not supported by real conviction.

There is absolutely NOTHING HYPOCRITICAL about disagreeing with, and not supporting, a different business model. It would be hypocritical if we, while never acknowledging that our minds had changed, quietly launched our own tube site or purchased advertising space on someone else's.

Free Porn is a business model. Not a philosophy, nor a belief system. If we all agreed with everything our fellow webmasters did, this board would be comprised of only a Good Morning thread, and even that would be dull. There are a LOT of concepts/practices in this business that I do not like, and I'll be damned if anyone is going to attempt to goat me in to feeling differently. Hypocrite is a loaded word. It is being used incorrectly and unfairly.

[Preacher]

|whisper| it's goad

[Useless]

|whisper| it's goadPrick! |catfight|

[xxxjay]

free porn = free porn = free porn

I couldn't have said it better.

Greenie was picking a fight with me over on another thread, but I don't really understand what the big deal is.

I have a "youtube style" site (www.snizzshare.com) - the video upload is closed. Every video that is posted link to the corresponding sponsor.

Snizzshare has 294 video clips on it at this point.

Link-o-rama has 24502 links out. If 20000 are to free sites, times say an average of 10 videos per site, then we are looking at 200,000 free porn clips online...the only thing that is different is the presentation.

I don't see what the big deal is.

Linklists and TGP were cutting edge 5 years ago. Now surfers want Web 2.0. You gotta keep with times or get left behind.

That's my 2 cents on this.

[Jim]

free porn = free porn = free porn

I don't think that is true. I think all of can agree that "free porn" that allows the surfer to get the job done without visiting a sponsor is not good for any part of this business. It not only hurts the free site, tgp and linklist owners but it also hurts the sponsor. And when the sponsor is hurt, we all hurt.

But after saying that, tube type sites look like they can work well if they are built properly. Snizzshare looks like it should work well. I would be curious as to how much money it makes vs how much money it costs. The biggest part of the problem a larger percentage of these sites don't seem to be looking toward the future at all.

I don't give a rats ass about the linklist and TGP business model. If anyone really thinks that the current business model will stay the same as more and more people get broadband access, they are crazy. But, this business as a whole can't survive if nobody has to join a paysite to get the content that gets the job done.

As a side note, I voted "No". But, I never meant my vote to mean, "Let's get pitchforks and chase these monsters away". My "No" vote was "No", I don't like the way these sites are currently doing business. With these sites growing faster than anything ever has, wouldn't it make more sense to educate the owners than to close your eyes and pretend they don't exist?

[Greenguy]

...Greenie was picking a fight with me over on another thread, but I don't really understand what the big deal is...I just found it really strange that a major Link List owner would not only support tube sites, but build one himself. But, I guess you stopped being a Link List owner & started being a Program Owner a long time ago. Sad.

...Link-o-rama has 24502 links out. If 20000 are to free sites, times say an average of 10 videos per site, then we are looking at 200,000 free porn clips online...the only thing that is different is the presentation...Well, I'm glad you know how many free sites I have as well as how many of them have movies, because I don't know that data. Thanks for posting your guesses about what's on MY site |thumb

(edit - I just looked: there's just over 23,000 free sites listed - that's a FACT. There's just over 8400 movie sites listed with 4-12 movies per site - probably an avg of 8/site - or 130,000 less than your guess)

[xxxjay]

I just found it really strange that a major Link List owner would not only support tube sites, but build one himself.

FYI: First, I shouldn't say that I support "tube sites" as you define them. I don't.

Shame on you for using your admin powers to post on the thread who voted how. If the goverment was so willy nilly with their voter information as you are, even less people would come out to vote.

Looking back I would have voted a flat "NO" actually.

If a "tube" site is a site that posts online a shitload of free content without giving the proper program credit or to leach traffic off someone elses content that is WRONG. That is where I stand there. We've sent plenty of publicly filed C&D's to these sites to prove it too!!!!!!!

That being said, I DIDN'T BUILD ONE MYSELF! Check your facts before you throw stones!

1. My upload is closed.
2. All of the sponsors get credit where credit is due.
3. Participation is by invite only.
4. The longest clip you will find anywhere on there is about 2 minutes, it non hardcore, and there are aren't many of them. Average clip is about 30 seconds - there are not hour long movies on that fucker!

Really, my site is a "fake tube" site.

But, I guess you stopped being a Link List owner & started being a Program Owner a long time ago. Sad.

That's news to me:

1. Did I shut any of my 3 links sites down? No.
2. Do I still take submissions daily for free? Yes.
3. Do I still pay to have a reviewer on staff to do reviews and correspond with webmasters on this board that want to be listed? Yes.
4. Do I add new categories to my linklist(s) based on the needs of submissions? Yes.

Just becasue I am not the "Johny Appleseed of free porn" doesn't mean I'm a sad case and besides where would the money for all these people owning linklists and submitting sites come from if it wasn't for us evil "program owners"?

Well, I'm glad you know how many free sites I have as well as how many of them have movies, because I don't know that data. Thanks for posting your guesses about what's on MY site |thumb

(edit - I just looked: there's just over 23,000 free sites listed - that's a FACT. There's just over 8400 movie sites listed with 4-12 movies per site - probably an avg of 8/site - or 130,000 less than your guess)

Whoops, excuse the fuck out of me. I arrived at my number by taking the total number of free listings (my guess was somewhere around 20,000) and multiplying it by 10 becasue each site might have that number of pieces of free content. I guess you got me on the photo technicality.

Whatever, it doesn't really matter. Now that I have the correct numbers, estimating on the low side:

8400 x 6 = 50400 free movies on LOR divided 316 Free Movies on snizzshare.com = 159 more times free porn online with LOR

How the fuck am I the bad guy? I just don't get it?

Come on Greenie? Let's face it. It is not 1998 anymore. Things must progress. We've both been doing this over 10 years now and in internet time that may as well be centuries.

Is Google bad becasue it killed Excite? Nope, just offered a better product.

Is Myspace bad becasue it killed Friendster? Is Greenguy and Jim bad beause it killed Adultnetsuprise (oh, that was a good one)?

No. They just offered a superiour product.

Better yet, is the internet bad becasue it killed magizine sales? I think everyone can agree it's been good for all of us.

Right as we piss away on this board there is generations of potential adult customers are turning of age that grew up on Web 2.0 platforms like youtube and myspace. They are not going to crawl their way through link-dumps and warning pages like their parents did. They are going to go with something they know and the more it looks like something they are already familiar with the more they will like the site.

At the end of the day, all you are really rallying against is the design of my site, becasue what I am doing isn't anything we both haven't been doing for years:

Putting free porn online.

Things change fast in this game. You can stand back and be bitter that your business model may be becoming obsolete or you can try to keep up with times. Either way those that stay tied to the tracks of Internet circa 2001 will get run over by a train...

It's called progress!

|headbang|

[JaceXXX]

new things come out and people evolve every day, if you don't take the new things and make them your own and profit off them in your own ways you will fall behind

the times are changing, you can either take shit and mold it RIGHT NOW, or fall behind and wonder what happened down the road

[Linkster]

The problem here is that we are comparing apples and oranges - something like Jays site where the uploads are private and linked to a sponsor with an affiliate code are completely different than a public upload site like youtube where anyone can post anything and the revenue comes from page - loads using something like Adsense.

So voting on this is kinda like voting on whether you like hosted free sites competing with your free sites that you submit to a LL

[Greenguy]

...Shame on you for using your admin powers to post on the thread who voted how. If the goverment was so willy nilly with their voter information as you are, even less people would come out to vote...
No I didn't. I posted this:
...Out of the 7 YES votes, 5 are people affiliated with paysites/programs...
This isn't some secret ballot kinda thing & all I did was post what group 5 of the 7 votes (at the time) belonged to.

...Really, my site is a "fake tube" site...It's still a tube site :)

...Just becasue I am not the "Johny Appleseed of free porn" doesn't mean I'm a sad case and besides where would the money for all these people owning linklists and submitting sites come from if it wasn't for us evil "program owners"?...Who said program owners were evil? My point is that since you joined OC Cash that has appeared to be your #1 priority. I come to this conclusion based on your participation here on the board, which was much greater before OC Cash came into the picture for you. Be honest on this one: If you had to prioritize the hats you wear (and we all have to do this from time to time) what would come 1st? OC or the Link List?

...Whoops, excuse the fuck out of me. I arrived at my number by taking the total number of free listings (my guess was somewhere around 20,000) and multiplying it by 10 because each site might have that number of pieces of free content. I guess you got me on the photo technicality...It's not a technicality - you made an uneducated guess & your numbers were way off from the truth.

...8400 x 6 = 50400 free movies on LOR divided 316 Free Movies on snizzshare.com = 159 more times free porn online with LOR...If in the year 2018 if the number of movies on snizzshare is less than 50,400 then you can compare the 2. It's kinda hard to compare an 11 year old site with one that was created 2 weeks ago.

...Is Google bad becasue it killed Excite? Nope, just offered a better product.

Is Myspace bad becasue it killed Friendster? Is Greenguy and Jim bad beause it killed Adultnetsuprise (oh, that was a good one)?...You can't compare any of those situation to this one because they are the same business model. I can't see where tube sites are the same business model as LL's & TGP's (other than the "free porn" angle & there's a shitload of "free porn" business models)

...Better yet, is the internet bad becasue it killed magizine sales? I think everyone can agree it's been good for all of us...
You can compare this one. And I ask you this: do you think magazine companies helped/supported/condoned the internet? I'll agree that many adapted by putting their material online, but it's kinda hard to work the material that's in the LL/TGP/FreeSite/Gallery business model into a tube site.

...Right as we piss away on this board there is generations of potential adult customers are turning of age that grew up on Web 2.0 platforms like youtube and myspace. They are not going to crawl their way through link-dumps and warning pages like their parents did. They are going to go with something they know and the more it looks like something they are already familiar with the more they will like the site.

At the end of the day, all you are really rallying against is the design of my site, becasue what I am doing isn't anything we both haven't been doing for years:

Putting free porn online.

Things change fast in this game. You can stand back and be bitter that your business model may be becoming obsolete or you can try to keep up with times. Either way those that stay tied to the tracks of Internet circa 2001 will get run over by a train...

It's called progress!

|headbang|If you want to call me bitter because it doesn't fit into my business model, then fine. I'm bitter.

In the case of snizzshare, I still find it hard to believe that someone that has a very popular Link List would encourage surfers to go to sites that are not in the same business model.

[xxxjay]

No I didn't. I posted this:

This isn't some secret ballot kinda thing & all I did was post what group 5 of the 7 votes (at the time) belonged to.

I still think you abused your power a little. Even Jim thought so on the radio show. It's your world, I'm just living in it.

It's still a tube site :)

We'll have to agree to disagree then. :) The way I did it is much more responsible than a real tube site.

Who said program owners were evil? My point is that since you joined OC Cash that has appeared to be your #1 priority. I come to this conclusion based on your participation here on the board, which was much greater before OC Cash came into the picture for you. Be honest on this one: If you had to prioritize the hats you wear (and we all have to do this from time to time) what would come 1st? OC or the Link List?

Well OCCash is a lot more hign profile but I have 2 partners, but my personal sites I own outright. I try not to favor either. My participation died off when someone (I wonder who?) made what should have been a private business matter public and I became the board whipping boy (even still to this day).

If in the year 2018 if the number of movies on snizzshare is less than 50,400 then you can compare the 2. It's kinda hard to compare an 11 year old site with one that was created 2 weeks ago.

True.

You can't compare any of those situation to this one because they are the same business model. I can't see where tube sites are the same business model as LL's & TGP's (other than the "free porn" angle & there's a shitload of "free porn" business models)

Someone else posted "Free porn is free porn is free porn" and I agree with that pretty much.

You can compare this one. And I ask you this: do you think magazine companies helped/supported/condoned the internet?

They should have...maybe they'd still be on the racks.

If you want to call me bitter because it doesn't fit into my business model, then fine. I'm bitter.

I don't see a big difference. A Ford Model-T was a car and so is a Mecedes Benz s550. The Benz is just evelution at work. They are both still cars.

In the case of snizzshare, I still find it hard to believe that someone that has a very popular Link List would encourage surfers to go to sites that are not in the same business model.

So you are saying that it is part of our job as linklist owners to keep surfers ignorant or everything beside their linklist?

Don't get me wrong, I love linklists. There is a lot of great things about them. The recip links used to work wonders with the search engines and still do to some degree. The traffic filtering is great. Making the surfers work a little harder to get to the porn is great.

However, ther fact is: Younger surfers are going to gravitate toward Web 2.0 type things that they know and, I fear, over time - linklists will just be the dirty magizine in their dad's closet.

I, myself, would rather ride the crest of a wave than paddle feverishly trying to catch up.

[Greenguy]

Jeez you're pokey with your replies :D

I still think you abused your power a little. Even Jim thought so on the radio show. It's your world, I'm just living in it....There's so much shit in that admin that it boggles my mind. And I often forget that those that do not have admin privileges on a VB board might not know what admins can look at. I assumed that everyone knew we could look at who voted. I'll apologize for that. But like I said, it's not like it's an election - it a poll.

...The way I did it is much more responsible than a real tube site....My problem is not with irresponsible tube sites, my problem is with ALL tube sites.

...Well OCCash is a lot more hign profile but I have 2 partners, but my personal sites I own outright. I try not to favor either. My participation died off when someone (I wonder who?) made what should have been a private business matter public and I became the board whipping boy (even still to this day)....You're right, it shouldn't have been brought out in public & we both took a beating on it - my fault.

...Someone else posted "Free porn is free porn is free porn" and I agree with that pretty much....I still say there's different levels, there's different ways of using it & there's different business models.


...They should have...maybe they'd still be on the racks....So if tube sites continue to grow & Link Lists & TGP's & their submitters encourage people to use them by sending trading traffic & helping people get them off the ground, this is good for Link Lists & TGP's & their submitters? How?

...I don't see a big difference. A Ford Model-T was a car and so is a Mecedes Benz s550. The Benz is just evelution at work. They are both still cars....No. This is a Model-T:
http://web.archive.org/web/20020328103411/http://www.jays-xxx-links.com/
This is a Mercedes Benz:
http://www.jays-xxx-links.com/

...So you are saying that it is part of our job as linklist owners to keep surfers ignorant or everything beside their linklist?...I'd be happy with keeping their free porn experiences to Link Lists, TGP's, Free Sites & Galleries. I wouldn't link to a Fusker (there is a legit way to do that BTW) I don't promote Guba. I don't promote P2P. I don't link to blogs (but that's mostly because 99.44% of the porn blogs out there are fake) I don't think any of those as well as tube sites are in my best interest as a Link List owner.

...However, ther fact is: Younger surfers are going to gravitate toward Web 2.0 type things that they know and, I fear, over time - linklists will just be the dirty magizine in their dad's closet.

I, myself, would rather ride the crest of a wave than paddle feverishly trying to catch up.You know, I had to go look up with Web 2.0 meant :D

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[xxxjay]

You know, I had to go look up with Web 2.0 meant :D

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Nice post. Well, it's never to late to teach an old dog new tricks...I'm going next week:

http://www.web2expo.com/

Wanna come with? It should be geek-o-riffic? :)

[Greenguy]

Nice post. Well, it's never to late to teach an old dog new tricks...I'm going next week:

http://www.web2expo.com/

Wanna come with? It should be geek-o-riffic? :)I will not be traveling until after the Stanley Cup playoffs are over, as my Sabres will be in the finals this year |thumb

[spazlabz]

I will not be traveling until after the Stanley Cup playoffs are over, as my Sabres will be in the finals this year |thumb|jester| good one |yawn|
look for the lightning to be lifting the cup again this year :)


spaz

[VexXxed]

Wow this is some post!

I have to say, I support "responsible" tube sites.

Allowing user-uploaded & non-2257'd content is not responsible.

[LB]

I run wanktube.com and let me make a few comments.....

-It has been up for many months and traffic growth has been ... well amazing. Surfers want community based content on demand sites. Youtube and myspace aren't huge without reason.

-We kill all videos that generate complaints even if we feel they are legit.

-I took on expensive legal advice before starting this site, and we are not breaking any laws.

-Ratios on wanktube have been better than any linklist traffic I have ever had, better than any tgp traffic I have ever had, and I even get better ratios that my ppc traffic.

In a perfect world i would love to see little free content. I would love to go back to the days where we could throw up 20 poor quality free pics and rake in the sales, but unfortunately guys we are in a different era. We either adapt or die.

[Trixie]

Funny, some of these responses.

Anyway, I voted that I'm split on the issue. As a sponsor I obviously am not happy with the idea of buttloads of our video content being "shared" for free and on sites with heavy (and often unscrupulous) advertising or of having to compete with so much free porn, but we've had to resign ourselves to that being the reality and make sure that memberships provide content that surfers canNOT get for free (live cams, interaction, easy access to full archives, frequent updates, etc.).

I've no idea why Useless thinks that sponsors don't already find their content used CONSTANTLY on sites with competing advertisements. We do, and we often pay upwards of 50% in sales to affiliates for putting it there (in blogs, review sites, picposts . . . pretty much everywhere unless someone uses our hosted promos).

[Trixie]

I run wanktube.com and let me make a few comments.....

-It has been up for many months and traffic growth has been ... well amazing. Surfers want community based content on demand sites. Youtube and myspace aren't huge without reason.

-We kill all videos that generate complaints even if we feel they are legit.

-I took on expensive legal advice before starting this site, and we are not breaking any laws.

Unless I'm the only one who sees NOTHING here, your terms of use don't inspire a lot of confidence:
http://wanktube.com/terms.php

[Halfdeck]

I haven't read this thread but here are some of my off-the-cuff thoughts on why I'm against this:

1) There will NEVER be an adult version of YouTube. Unless you're talking about your neighbor videotaping himself and his wife go at it and uploading it for the world to see, what we have going on right now is not and never will be an adult version of YouTube.

2) The only site that gains from the traffic is the video hosting site. Submitters send them traffic that will never come back and paysite owners lose sales by helping create a site no one has to pay for.

[Trixie]

1) There will NEVER be an adult version of YouTube. Unless you're talking about your neighbor videotaping himself and his wife go at it and uploading it for the world to see, what we have going on right now is not and never will be an adult version of YouTube.

Good point -- there's a big difference between the homemade content users post on youtube and the stolen or promo content posted on pornotube, etc. That doesn't mean it won't catch on, though. I think the new site rude.com encourages non-pro users to do just that: broadcast their own cams and post their own porn videos. Those kinds of sites have done well in the past when they were picture oriented and as long as 2257 doesn't scare everyone away it could happen. It already happens a lot in fetish communities where the fetishists make and share their own porn (there's a doll-sex site and forum like that).

[LB]

Unless I'm the only one who sees NOTHING here, your terms of use don't inspire a lot of confidence:
http://wanktube.com/terms.php

We are still in beta, but there shouldn't even be a terms page since we haven't passed them by our lawyer yet so thanks for pointing it out :)

[LB]

Good point -- there's a big difference between the homemade content users post on youtube and the stolen or promo content posted on pornotube, etc. That doesn't mean it won't catch on, though. I think the new site rude.com encourages non-pro users to do just that: broadcast their own cams and post their own porn videos. Those kinds of sites have done well in the past when they were picture oriented and as long as 2257 doesn't scare everyone away it could happen. It already happens a lot in fetish communities where the fetishists make and share their own porn (there's a doll-sex site and forum like that).

What I would love to see is sponsors who aren't ok with the uploading of their promo content on tubes saying so clearly, just like they are starting to do for blogs. However from what I am seeing when I ask sponsors is that most are more than happy for me to use their promo content, and some who realise the quality of the traffic have even put video content packs together for me with no watermarks :)

[jayeff]

we've had to resign ourselves to that being the reality

The over-riding reality is that the internet is an entirely different marketplace than the bricks-and-mortar world. Some people have exploited those differences almost by accident (solo model site owner/operators) and a handful of others - such as the developers of YouTube and MySpace - have set out to profit from those differences.

The vast majority of us (and I am guilty as charged) depend on business models which fail to recognize these differences at all. That, if you like, is Web 1.0. The Emperor's Clothes are beginning to look decidely translucent, even for the minority who execute their chosen business models well, because supply and demand are closing and because Web 2.0 is moving in. Web 2.0 - in online porn terms - isn't only represented by adult versions of YouTube and MySpace, but also by torrent sites and sites such as "I Shot Myself" and "Suicide Girls".

The internet is about interactivity. Interactivity between individuals and also interactivity between customer and product. If I order books from Amazon, the site will in future suggest books I might enjoy. If I rate movies at Netflix, other movies I might like are displayed. Interactivity on adult sites is largely restricted to dating and webcams, but the success of both those areas should be telling us something.

Another consideration is that there are two fundamental marketing models in any kind of business: low-margin/high-volume and high-margin/low-volume. Ford vs Ferrari. These are not arbitrary choices dictated by producers/sellers (although some, such as champagne producers and diamond merchants, restrict their product to keep prices high). They are also a consequence of market reaction: while some people will buy PC's from independent stores and pay a higher price for the extra service and attention they perceive, most are willing to buy boxes as cheaply as possible.

Online porn, by the very nature of the internet, should be a high-volume/low-margin business. There is a reluctance to accept that, because so many people still influential in the business, have enjoyed unrealistically high margins and obviously do not want to let them go. They are dwindling anyway, the snag is that the customer isn't seeing much benefit because increasing cost-of-sales and static/declining volumes are getting in the way.

Affiliates are paid too much. Never mind newbie webmasters, most of whom begin with no relevant skills whatsoever. We have hundreds of "experienced" webmasters who have no more real skills or business knowledge than the day they started. Sure they learn how to improve their chances of getting a free-site listed in a links list or they buy a script and find out how to avoid the worst pitfalls of traffic trading. But mostly all they bring to the table is labor and labor is a cheap commodity. In a mature market the average affiliate would be damn lucky to make even $20 an hour.

Agree or disagree, what does this have to do with free porn?

In the 90's there were millions of people coming onto the internet, most of whom didn't even have easy, embarassment-free access to anything raunchier than H*stler. For a while at least, there wasn't a lot of free porn available except to the denizens of news groups, and most of what there was, was crap. Surely paysites and AVS programs offered more? They rarely did, but the hope produced a goldrush.

Over the past 10 years we have done an excellent job of educating people that 9 times out of 10, sites will take their money and barely attempt to deliver what was promised, let alone anything substantially better than can be had for free. At the same time, the amount of free content has rocketed and the sites delivering it have become far easier to locate and use. If all you want to do is see pics of naked women or watch a movie of people f*cking, why pay for it is a very valid question.

But we cannot put the lid back on free porn even if we want to. The problem anyway is not free porn per se, but the ridiculous idea that once people have checked to see what all the fuss is about, more than a relatively tiny percentage of the total will be willing to pay $30, $40 and even $50 a month to see more of the same. People will not pay for a Ferrari and be satisfied if they are delivered a Ford.

That message has been delivered loud and clear in every market out there, yet somehow we still ignore it. Essentially we deliver what is cheap and easy for us to deliver and offer it at the prices we want to charge, not the prices that a mature market will bear. We are still, to an extent getting away with it, solely because it might be another 5 years before supply and demand are fully equalized. The fact remains that we are not adding value.

IMO, within 5 years almost all non-interactive porn will be given away and only used to attract traffic. We will see the cost of hiring still photographers and licensing DVD's as no different than other industries view their marketing costs. We shall focus almost entirely on selling interactivity, with just a few specialist sites and those which genuinely deliver ease-of-use and top-quality content, able to charge for anything else.

That interactivity will include live video, but we shall move away from bored models charged at high rates per hour, sitting idle for hours at a time, to something which Mr. Average can afford on a regular basis and we will present it imaginatively enough for him to want to do so. Solo models are also here to stay: not the kind of sites for which someone shot a couple of years' updates in a weekend, but the ones with real interaction between models and visitors. Nor is there any reason that principle needs to be restricted to solo models...

Above all, we will be seeing Web 2.0 sites (btw I hate the term and a lot of it is marketing hype, but it is convenient shorthand) which let surfers interact with each other as well as the content. Adult dating sites will blur into adult community sites, some with a broad appeal and others much more specific. We shall effectively make content sharing legal, because instead of kidding ourselves we can shut it out, we will make it easy for members to share the content we are no longer trying to monetize. That will become just another aspect of interactivity.

The lines will also blur between affiliate sites and sponsor sites because with both heading towards the community model and both giving a lot away, outwardly they will look very similar. That is also what will effectively raise the entry bar for new webmasters. It never can cost more than the price of a PC and an internet connection to want to be an adult webmaster, but the knowledge and investment needed to build sites with the potential to earn serious money in future, will increase dramatically.

At the risk of getting even further off topic, I think we shall see other changes in the sponsor-affiliate relationship. Payments will more often become related to volume but also there will be more discrimination. The shotgun approach to attracting affiliates is increasingly expensive and less productive and even though many affiliates earn little or nothing for the majority of sponsors, their existence makes life more difficult for productive affiliates. So just as in other industries, we are going to see the top names becoming much more selective about their affiliates, both to reduce recruitment costs and to encourage those who can generate volume to join them on the promise of less competition. New webmasters will have to settle for new or otherwise struggling programs. More of the money now being spent on newbie recruitment, shows, etc., is going to go instead on affiliate development and practical support, because sponsors need to start taking control of their businesses, instead of merely hoping that a high profile will produce results.

I haven't looked at the poll, but I would guess that 80%+ are opposed to adult versions of YouTube. If you want to be making money 5-10 years from now, instead of opposing YouTube, you should be embracing it and whatever is going to be coming next. The Web 2.0 developments of the past few years are just the beginning...

[JaceXXX]

check out my new system

I make my blog post like this
http://www.adailyfix.com/index.php/2007/04/24/honey-and-her-friends-and-the-foursome/

then instead of embedding a movie into the blog post, I started a tube site that I upload movie to, so you see an image like this
http://www.adailyfix.com/cm/nd-bn-643-01.jpg

you click it and get taken to my tube site
http://www.previewtheporn.com/view_video.php?viewkey=194c475687be6106a3b8

so, basically I am getting my blog rolling, but also getting some traffic to the tube site....I am not allowing registration or any features to surfers, just view the video and that is it...and I am the only one that can upload videos

is this an approved way of doing things?

btw, the tube site is not completely done yet, i still gotta get it designed and themed and shit

[LB]

Affiliates are paid too much.

I don't mean to diminish your post, but i agree with this.

I do a lot of mainstream work and I am paid a fraction of what I am paid in adult.

However the payouts to affiliates will only tone down once we manage to cut affiliates out of the business. This is a process which has already been started and the people who insert themselves between traffic sources and sponsors are becoming fewer and fewer.

[Allfetish]

I don't mean to diminish your post, but i agree with this.

I do a lot of mainstream work and I am paid a fraction of what I am paid in adult.

However the payouts to affiliates will only tone down once we manage to cut affiliates out of the business. This is a process which has already been started and the people who insert themselves between traffic sources and sponsors are becoming fewer and fewer.

I like to keep note of who wants to cut me out of their business. Then I make sure to give them their wish. I think more affiliates should consider doing this.

[jayeff]

However the payouts to affiliates will only tone down once we manage to cut affiliates out of the business.

I have no doubt that is the direction many will take and among the first will doubtless be many of the very same people who were falling over themselves to raise affiliate payments just a few years ago. Unfortunately, they still haven't learned the right lessons and cutting out affiliates is going to prove as short-sighted as everything else so far.

[Greenguy]

jayeff - I read your book...twice. Aside from my feeling that you could have made the same post 5 years ago, what'd you vote for in the poll?

[jayeff]

jayeff - I read your book...twice. Aside from my feeling that you could have made the same post 5 years ago, what'd you vote for in the poll?

I didn't vote, for the same reason that although I couldn't have written that post 5 years ago, I could have predicted then that I would be writing it now.

Every developing industry goes through the same phases. Those phases vary in length from one industry to the next and the signs saying hey, this is where we are now, are also different. But the direction and destination is ultimately the same. Market forces are implacable. That reality is what makes possible the study of subjects such as economics and business management. It's why accountants and stock analysts are able to determine the health of individual businesses.

That may seem like an abstract consideration, but it isn't. It really doesn't matter where a train is when you get on it, nor which stations it will pass through en route. But to be wearing the right clothes when it reaches its destination, you need to know whether it is going to Florida or Alaska.

There are lots of ways to make money and those with a talent for spotting bandwagons early and knowing when to jump off, can do very nicely by constantly operating short-term, as it were. But the internet is already demonstrating that as always, the really serious money is earned by those who anticipate future bandwagons. No-one could have forecast specifically that there would be a YouTube or a MySpace, but the nature of the internet in particular and business/marketing in general, dictated that there had to be something like them.

Whether we welcome them or oppose them is irrelevant. They simply are.

[Mister E]

Great question my friend but THEY would NOT exist if we didn't have the balls to be like Sinatra and do it our way. We did an it worked! Hell, Toyota sold more cars than GM last quarter because they refined their product. Fair competition is a good thing and though I c the point, to oppose anything on the web (save the obvious kid stuff which is as evil as brown corduroy) opposing any competition may inspire others to oppose US. And, Oh ya', keep in mind...we are really good @ what we do.

[Mister E]

Whoever u r, I like your argument!

[LB]

I have no doubt that is the direction many will take and among the first will doubtless be many of the very same people who were falling over themselves to raise affiliate payments just a few years ago. Unfortunately, they still haven't learned the right lessons and cutting out affiliates is going to prove as short-sighted as everything else so far.

Some of the best paysites I have seen, with concepts that I know make them amazing sales either point blank refuse to take on affiliates, or only take them on after they have enjoyed a long period of exclusive promotion.

I didn't put my point very well before and it came off a little wrong. What I am suggesting is that the middle man is being cut out. Its the site owners with their traffic who are increasingly going straight to the sponsor, giving less traffic out to others for free, or asking submitters to start paying for a piece of the pie.

Anyhow I am straying off topic ... sorry :)

[Bobc01]

I think the threat is that most content you see on a paysite you can find free around the net anyway because 90% of it is plugged in.

Pick out any themed paysite and it will be exactly the same as any other only it will look different.

To compete with free porn offer something more unique that people can't get for free.

[spazlabz]

I think the threat is that most content you see on a paysite you can find free around the net anyway because 90% of it is plugged in.

I have worked with three programs & had my own paysites and not one of them has a majority of their content plugged in. I review sites on the side and very few of the members areas I have reviewed in the past year have had a majority of their content plugged in. I am just wondering where you got the 90% from?
|huh

spaz

[Bobc01]

Ok but whats different about the content to any other paysite that i can't find on youtube or yourfilehost or any free source?

People theme their sites on whatever but basically they're the same predictable content.

[Greenguy]

It's a wonder we make any sales, huh Bob?

[Bobc01]

That's not what i'm saying, it's basically most, if not all people pumping porn are driven by their own greed, anything that's likely to be a threat is obviously not gonna get supported or liked.

But like anything thats under threat from competition, instead of moaning about it, work on ways of countering it by offering better and not the predictable paysite content thats plastered all over the place.

I'm surprised most people didn't predict things like this now most people have broadband and the way online media has grown in everyway.

Ok 90% is a bit over exaggerated but the thing with youtube is it's unique and different to the paysite free content you find in packed in tgp/link sites.

Maybe paysite free content is a bad idea as there is so much of it about that people get bored.

I'm not trying to insult or upset people just giving a view.


Edit: Have a look at this site "sexdreams.2link.be" and tell me whats more of a threat, youtube or this.

[Greenguy]

Greed? Since when is a company's business model referred to as "greed"?

You think that the movie files on adult tube sites are really that much different from the free content, hosted galleries & whatnot that sponsors allow webmaster to use? It's the same material with a different delivery system.

Hell, if anything, it's longer versions posted by surfers that got the video from the members area or from some sharing service.

[Bobc01]

Well, if it isn't greed whats the problem?

If it's stolen content from paysites then it's theft and infringes copyright and youtube would be liable.

If it's submitted videos of home porn which is what i've seen mostly on there then again why should people pay to see them?

what your saying is ban people from submitting their own porn unless webmasters can exploit it and get rich.

I'd worry more on password trading/spoofing than what youtube type sites offer.

[Greenguy]

You really need to re-read all my comments on this - I understand why the adult tube sites exist & I'm not banning them (there were 3 posts promoting them in the last week that are still where they were posted)

What I am saying is that they are against my business model (Link Lists & TGP's) and that's why I do not want to support or encourage them.

I don't like adult tube sites at all - I don't care of the content is all submitted by the paysite owners, if it's all home made videos, if it's all stolen & no one has the rights to post it anyplace - not my concern.

It's also a completely different scenario with password traders or spyware or other malicious business models - if I threw up a poll asking if we should support password traders it's by 100% to 0% - and really has nothing to do with this thread.

[Bobc01]

Ok i see what you're saying, i only read the first few posts which were mainly about free porn.

The thing about youtube sites is they get good traffic, link lists send very little and from what i've seen elsewhere are mainly used to boost the dreaded PR's.

I can understand why link sites are against them but surely it just means you have to change with the times and compete to be better.

Link-o-rama tube?

[mr.sexbankroll]

I support them.. i think that anyone anywhere can find access to freeporn, and supporting things like this that makes porn 'ok' is a benefit to everyone involved in the industry

[xxxjay]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=HPIA%2CHPIA%3A2005-42%2CHPIA%3Aen&q=snizzshare - this thread comes up #3 on a google search. Does that mean Google is for or against?

Tough call.

[Greenguy]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2006-32%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=xxxjay+ass - is Google for or against you being an ass :D

I kid - I kid - but thanks for bumping the thread |thumb

[LowryBigwood]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=HPIA%2CHPIA%3A2005-42%2CHPIA%3Aen&q=snizzshare - this thread comes up #3 on a google search. Does that mean Google is for or against?

Tough call.

Google ranks a lot of stuff high that I doubt very seriously they are "for".

Just a quick example: #2 result for "sex xxx" no quotes. (xxxpower.net)

I would have a hard time believing Google is all for that site. Just check out the title.

[xxxjay]

Google ranks a lot of stuff high that I doubt very seriously they are "for".

Just a quick example: #2 result for "sex xxx" no quotes. (xxxpower.net)

I would have a hard time believing Google is all for that site. Just check out the title.

I disagree. There are certian SEO advantages you have being Web 2.0. Give me a couple months and you'll see.

[sirkakashi08]

i voted 50/50, but after reading your posts/replies, i think i'm against to that idea!

[esteve]

50/50 here, but that could change pretty fast.

[Beaver Bob]

I'm 50/50. I've uploaded a few small trailer clips on a few of our sites and not a whole lot of traffic, but a little bit. I do think flash video itself is going to become more and more in use because that where everything is going. A site like jay's that controls everything, in my opinion, is fine. What isn't is sites that would allow member area content uploaded.

[cutclips]

the 'yes' or 'no' answer as to whether or not webmasters support Tube like sites is of little practical value. it seems like the relevancy of the question is how it is webmasters are going to respond to these types of sites. what new models are we going to come up with? although these sites are nettlesome, in a way they will challenge webmasters to improve upon the laurels that we rest on. in time, we are going to have to move away from indirect content resources like LL and TGPs, and if not away from these static modes, at least augment them.

[cutclips]

so please tell me how a sponsor hosted tube clone is any worse then LL, MGPs, TGPs or any other method that gives away free content.
spaz

because free clips that run over a minute are the very thing the user is looking for. long enough to spank. free streaming video is very desirable.

you can slice traffic up into quality traffic, and parse that into categories based on buying behavior, but the fact of the matter is, highly motivated buyers are outnumbered by the vast amount of users looking not to buy, but to spank. that means the tube sites are catering to a larger demo.
that's how they are worse. they get to the ends by jumping the usual means.
the real issue here is not about free content, but about the quantity of free content. a free ten minute clip is more detrimental to affiliate models than two gallery pages with five or six jpgs.

[VicD]

The problem here is that we are comparing apples and oranges - something like Jays site where the uploads are private and linked to a sponsor with an affiliate code are completely different than a public upload site like youtube where anyone can post anything and the revenue comes from page - loads using something like Adsense.

So voting on this is kinda like voting on whether you like hosted free sites competing with your free sites that you submit to a LL

Good point, it's not just a black and white choice, it's way more detailed, so i voted YES/NO

[LeRoy]

I am not for them. I uploaded some trailers and got a little traffic from one site. I found some Zango links on another site I used. Then I stopped going to them. I think there is always going to be someone with longer clips on the Tube sites. Longer clips are not good at all. There needs to be a 30 second rule or something.

[LD]

I haven't voted yet....I just don't know, but I think it could get more people into porn. I mean if you like porn, you tend to want to see more, and you want a wider variety. So you've got people looking at porn who otherwise would not bother. Pretty soon they go to google to find more. Porn becomes a part of their sex live. A spillover effect, or an expanded market, so to speak.

[maniac]

Imagine you were selling cars. And there was a place where people can get cars for free. Then who you think will pay for cars?

It's ok to let the customer have a test drive, but it's not ok to give him a whole parking lot with free cars.

The only one who profits from video tube sites are dating sponsors. All people involved with porn are losing BIG. Content producers, paysite owners, porn affiliates - everyone in the porn industry.

[maniac]

And that's why I promote only paysites with DRM on their videos. I think that all paysite sponsors should start protecting their videos (with DRM, stream, or something else..) . Maybe we should all start promoting only dating sponsors. If the paysite sponsors are not able to protect their content, then why should I promote them?

I realy think that DRM is the solution. And I don't think that DRM is such a big headache for customers. At least it's much much better than giving all your content for free on video tube sites.

Hey wanna watch a full movie check out - http://www.xvideos.com/video2250/very_long_porn_video%2C_enjoy%21

1h 4 mins - that's unbelievable!! Do you really think that a surfer will ever pay for porn again after watching full movies for free? I don't think so.

xvideos.com is run by the XNXX guy, ...you can see a lot of major paysite programs supporting all this. Yeah, the guy runs banners and gets paid for putting full leng movies. Many of the movies are 20-30 min in lenght. That's awesome.

[Bobc01]

Isn't dating sponsors, just the one from what i've seen on many of them.
The trouble with other dating sponsors is they try to be just as ruthless as AFF.
(Registering domains anonymously and using them for spam.)

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[Simon]

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[Jim]

Sorry Simon, he/she will not have the opportunity to answer. I was a good question though :)