A question for my fellow lady webmasters.

[karomesis]

Do you think that of the women who surf porn sites each month, that a decent percentage would entertain purchasing a membership to a site? But have been reluctant to do so as the majority of the sites have material that appeals to more of a "cumslut fuck pics" consumer base.

if the site turns them on and entertains enough to have them consider paying for it, do you think a decent amount would?

Women are notoriuously savy and informed consumers, so I could imagine a sustained level of growth for a site that catered to their needs.(but I could be wrong)|huh

[Tart]

YES and YES!
I have promoted to women pretty much from the very start of my adult adventures and if the site you are promoting has what they want, they will not only join but stay.
Currently there is only one paysite I would promote to women and that is "For the Girls" by Purple Dollars (http://refer.ccbill.com/cgi-bin/clicks.cgi?CA=924527-0000&PA=531624 &HTML=http://www.purpledollars.com/). I have consistently made sales with them and best of all, they rebill like crazy (I have some members that have rebilled over 6 months)

Do a search on the board on the topic and you'll find quite a few posts supporting them.

[Ms Naughty]

Ooh, thanks so much for the plug, Tart :)

Karomesis, women will get out their credit card for porn. It just has to turn them on... OR not turn them off. I think the language you use on a site can make a huge difference to whether you attract women or not.

4women porn exists for that, but I know there are women out there who are into mainstream men's porn too. You will probably get people posting in this thread that there are female members on their paysites.

I've made a career out of offering porn to straight women. They DO buy. You just have to know who you're selling to and alter your sales technique accordingly.

I won't go into too much detail in this reply because as Tart says, it's been brought up in previous threads and I tend to get a little evangelical LOL

At the risk of sounding spammy, I've written several articles on the topic of marketing to women, you can find them in the resources section at Purple Dollars. :)

[selena]

Ask 100 women what type of porn site they would buy a membership for, and you'll get 100 different answers. While not every woman is into "cumfuck slut pics" some of them are.

[karomesis]

thanks for the replies|thumb

I can make assumptions all day long about what I think women want in a porn site, but it is interesting to hear it from women themselves.

My guess intitially was that women want to see more emotionally involved porn than the average guy. I know very few men who peruse the romance novel section of the local barnes and noble, but plenty of women.

[Cleo]

I sell porn for woman. Not a lot but it does sell. :)

[stuveltje]

well i should sell porn for woman, i only lost alot of for woman bought content the last time my other puter crashed, and yeah the content isnt sold anymore and i have only a couple of pics left, but sure i think woman buy porn, i only find it hard to find out what kind, most for woman porn you see the soft and gentle for woman "guy fucking woman content" but if i ask my perverted girlfriends, they like the raw (or rough) sex way too, plus they like to watch solo gay guys(only if they dont show their asshole then")for woman porn is still a niche i dont understand, and yes cleo i am an woman:D

[Ms Naughty]

Ask 100 women what type of porn site they would buy a membership for, and you'll get 100 different answers. While not every woman is into "cumfuck slut pics" some of them are.

One of the things I often say when defining the 4women market is that it's about creating a space where women are acknowledged as an audience. Most porn aims itself squarely at men and male fantasy/desire so this can leave women feeling left out, no matter what the content. If you think about the way the industry is more focused on the female talent, the way male porn stars are often "average joes", the way you rarely see a female orgasm... all that stuff means that there are a lot of female porn surfers whose needs are being ignored.

In terms of my kind of 4women porn - the hetero couples/romantic type stuff - most porn doesn't offer this. The women who love "cumfuck slut" mentality of porn are already being catered to via the millions of existing men's sites. Those who want something different, be that more inclusive language, different fantasies, nude men, whatever... that's where I come in.
|bananna|

And Stuveltje, if you think about what you yourself like, use that kind of content, make sure you're talking to a female audience in your advertising... and promote the right sites :D then bingo, you're making 4women porn.

[RedCherry]

I agree that I like romance in pics more, where it looks like the guy actually cares about how the woman feels. Where he is going down on her, and I like graphic sex pics too.

I also like sexy text, reading about romance can turn me on more than pics...because I get to imagine the people any way I want. :D

But, although I'm not into sex with women at all, I think women dressed in leather, high heeled boots, latex, sci-fi stuff is very sexy too. More from an artistic point of view than it arouses me point of view.

And I LOVE toons. Heavy Metal type of toons, not sailor moon anime type of toons, lol.

And hunks, BOY I like to look at hard bodied guys.

So Just me as a woman surfer I like a lot of different things. And porn for women SELLS, and it sells WELL and they retain like crazy. |thumb

[Tam]

I started out in this industry selling porn to Women in 99, and I did very well with it. But as to what's said, you better damn well know what you are selling and who you are selling it to. They can be very easy to please on one hand and some of the hardest out there to please on the other hand. Women tend to stay a little longer in a site than men do, as in monthly memberships, or they did with me. Once they find a site they really really like, they tend to be more loyal. They aren't AS likely to shell out the cash, but once they do, in my experience, they are more loyal.

Besides, who is going to tell them they can't spend the money on porn? Isn't that what WOMEN do? Men aren't at liberty to make those demands..... rotfl. Sorry, that was a joke.

When I ran my first site, I started out playing "I'll show you mine and you show me yours" and what I ended up with completely shocked me. I ended up with the women as the agressors and men as the content, somehow, but it worked. LOL

Since I was the initial content, guys would fall all over themselves to post THEIR pics to me, and then it started bringing in women to check out the straight guys, and pretty soon, the women were the dominant posters on it, and they DID buy memberships, but they are FAR more picky about it.

[Tam]

thanks for the replies|thumb

I can make assumptions all day long about what I think women want in a porn site, but it is interesting to hear it from women themselves.

My guess intitially was that women want to see more emotionally involved porn than the average guy. I know very few men who peruse the romance novel section of the local barnes and noble, but plenty of women.


You would be surprised, seriously. When I was doing it, those women would say shit to those men that would make even ME blush and I have a nasty mouth. LOL

They'd say things to those poor guys like "I want you to ram that huge fat cock up my ass til I scream" and things like this, and worse. I could literally sit for hours and watch them, and the men LOVED it. So it was a balance. The dirtier the women got, the more the men posted their pics. They would print pics off of the guys and take pics of themselves licking the guys dick in the pics and then reposting them. It was a riot.

I don't have that site anymore, with the 2257 and all, but my point is, women are way more agressive about sex than you would think, providing they are comfortable with where they are and who is handing it to them. If a woman knows a woman is running the site, they tend to be a little more agressive and more apt to join and stay. Don't ask me why. lol

[Empress_JRN]

Do you think that of the women who surf porn sites each month, that a decent percentage would entertain purchasing a membership to a site? But have been reluctant to do so as the majority of the sites have material that appeals to more of a "cumslut fuck pics" consumer base.

if the site turns them on and entertains enough to have them consider paying for it, do you think a decent amount would?

Women are notoriuously savy and informed consumers, so I could imagine a sustained level of growth for a site that catered to their needs.(but I could be wrong)|huh

Hmmn...maybe not maybe yes. I mean this kind of stuff are not that important to women...I mean the contents etc...unlike guys who really are natural perverts women have lots of channels wherein they can be more creative with their stuff...

[tigermom]

Like Selena said, it varies between women, and I daresay it varies between men as well.

Had an interesting discussion with hubby last night. He mentioned that now that we're going to buy a new DVD player, he might be interested in watching porn together. I said, sure, I got tons of porn lol, but he said he doesn't want any of that filth that I work with, he doesn't want to see facials, he doesn't want to see dicks and he doesn't want to see gyno pictures (that's his term for pussy closeups). He wants a storyline in the movie too, so go figure.

[Ms Naughty]

Tigermom I actually think there's a lot of guys out there who feel the same way. Your hubby should check out some Candida Royalle movies or the films at www.comstockfilms.com (which are popular with both sexes).

[FatalAttraction]

Do you think that of the women who surf porn sites each month, that a decent percentage would entertain purchasing a membership to a site? But have been reluctant to do so as the majority of the sites have material that appeals to more of a "cumslut fuck pics" consumer base.



I used to sign up for sites all the time, I like the cumslut fuck pics. |thumb

[karomesis]

I used to sign up for sites all the time, I like the cumslut fuck pics.

Admittedly, there is a sampling bias due to the fact that this topic is being discussed in an adult forum.

Then again, I can't exactly go up to every woman on the street and ask her to decide the pros and cons of "cumslut fuck pics", as opposed to more literary oriented erotica.

keep the replies coming ladies. I appreciate the feedback.

[GenXer]

Yes I am a webmaster, however I do enjoy looking through porn on occasion. There have been a few sites that I have actually paid for memberships for both out of curiousity. I also have a friend who has purchased a few adult memberships, but they were for dating sites

[stuveltje]

And Stuveltje, if you think about what you yourself like, use that kind of content, make sure you're talking to a female audience in your advertising... and promote the right sites then bingo, you're making 4women porn.
na i dont think what i like about man will work, to be honest i never surfed porn on the net before i did this bizz, i realy see this as my work (being an actress), so if i have to be the man who will fuck a lady in her ass at the park on my sites i will do that, what i like to see with man, and then i am not even thinking about porn, i just like to see guys in jeans, i like eyes, and butts, but butts in jeans not with open cheeks, oh noooooo, hell an ugly guy can get me soft if he has special eyes.... i am more the "i like eyes" kind of girl .....geeze i am simple:D

[docholly]

When i was married, my husband and i every week would rent something.. trading off.. and when he was at sea he'd search the alt.binary sites for 'special' pics to send me that "we" were going to do..we'd critique the movie or the pics and discuss how much better we could make them.. little did i know what a camhoe i'd turn out to be. |jester|

[jackie]

thanks for the replies|thumb

I can make assumptions all day long about what I think women want in a porn site, but it is interesting to hear it from women themselves.

My guess intitially was that women want to see more emotionally involved porn than the average guy. I know very few men who peruse the romance novel section of the local barnes and noble, but plenty of women.

This is not true, not all women like emotional bullshit.

I HATE stereotypes.

The worst one is that men make more than money. Well, I' make more than most men do. It has nothing to do with the thread, but I just like to say it because it makes me feel good and most people ASSUME that the man in the house makes more. Just like they assume we like romance crap.

And I DON'T like emotional romance movies.

I am just as tough as any guy, I'll watch cum fuck slut movies and anal gaping and gangbangs and whatever else is out there all day long.

I am not a submissive woman who likes "romance novels" and is waiting for a prince to rescue me, I can take care of myself. I don't need a prince to take care of me, I take care of myself. I'm not a "demure maiden" and don't need to be protected from viewing harder obscene sex acts.

I don't need separate porn made for me.

I can do anything a man can do (and probably do it better) and watch anything a man can watch. And then some.

The last thing I want is romance from a porn actor on-screen. I want to use them as a piece of meat and as a sex object just like men use women...

If I want romance I just go shopping... that's what makes my heart really bloom...

[Surfn]

Someone sounds a tad bitter...

[stuveltje]

I want to use them as a piece of meat and as a sex object just like men use women...
i never saw it that way, well about the fact that men see woman as a sex object, but i know most men dont mind to have it the other way around:D

[Linkster]

Well - as my little avatar usually states - Im definitely not a female - hope ya dont mind a little interjection here for a sec.
jackie brings up a really interesting point and its something I found when I was really pushing the porn for women niche a few years back.
I made up two landing pages for some search traffic/LL/freesites that both actually eventully got the surfer(assuming females here) to the same site.
The landing page that was the dirtiest , rudest talking and graphic way outsold the page I had that appealed to the "romantic, erotic" approach. It changed my views on marketing to women although I still try the laid back, softer approach off and on, I tend to see more sales when I appeal to a more basic level than the "heady, touchy feely" destinations.
Now if some sponsors would just add some sites designed with that in mind, Id be all set :)

[abcdwebkate]

Like Selena said, it varies between women, and I daresay it varies between men as well.

Had an interesting discussion with hubby last night. He mentioned that now that we're going to buy a new DVD player, he might be interested in watching porn together. I said, sure, I got tons of porn lol, but he said he doesn't want any of that filth that I work with, he doesn't want to see facials, he doesn't want to see dicks and he doesn't want to see gyno pictures (that's his term for pussy closeups). He wants a storyline in the movie too, so go figure.

I think that sexiness can be really subtle, and women appreciate that. I am continually surprised at how many guys buy my erotic story and video content that is mostly targeted to women. As someone said before, cum-faced fucksluts have their place but that is only one flavor of the juice.

[stuveltje]

i think and thats just my opinion, when gettng older you like more the "romantic and all" and before that age, you are just wild and like all, maybe its just like marriage, at the beginning you fuck like rabbits and later you think .....oh no here he comes again with his foolish act.......and now i realy am choking from laughter.....i am getting slapt by my hubby while i write this:D

[Ms Naughty]

You know what Jackie? I'm sick of women who put down other women because they like romance novels. Why are their tastes worse than yours? To each their own. Your entire post indulges in a swathe of your own stereotypes and it seems you have a few issues with men.

If you don't need porn made for you, then great. Off you go and enjoy your kind of porn. Goodness knows there's a shitload of it all over the internet.

But don't go assuming that every other woman is like you, or is not as good as you because they have different tastes.

Linkster: Thanks for your info :)

[karomesis]

This is not true, not all women like emotional bullshit.

I HATE stereotypes.



|angry| |huh

I never said all of them do.|confused|

And stereotypes sometimes have a scientific backing.

I usually prefer not to make absolute statements such as all, or everyone, or forever, as they oftentimes lack a basis in reality.

I can do anything a man can do (and probably do it better) and watch anything a man can watch. And then some.


I never said anything contrary. |confused|

[jackie]

|angry| |huh

I never said all of them do.|confused|

And stereotypes sometimes have a scientific backing.

I usually prefer not to make absolute statements such as all, or everyone, or forever, as they oftentimes lack a basis in reality.




I never said anything contrary. |confused|

I know you didn't say anything contrary. I just said it just in case someone would think otherwise |jester|

I argued with some other people about the subject of men vs women (nothing to do with porn at all) and the consensus was that women can't do everything that men can. For example they stated that most things are invented by men, and that women were expected to raise children and be faithful and other things...

Don't mind me, I'm just in a bad mood so I like to take it out in the boards. It's a free form of therapy ....

[Linkster]

Well - one more little interjection here - mostly probably because I was raised a little different than most back in the 50s and 60s - I grew up with a mother that worked as a newspaper reporter and had very controversial views at the time (think crosses being burned on your front yard and you get the idea) - however, in addition to the segregation issues that she dealt with, she also was on the "front lines" of the "equal rights and liberation" forces for women. I guess in that upbringing I was basically pointed in the direction of thinking that all people were equal - no matter the gender, although there were, and still are, quite a large percentage of both men AND WOMEN, that have very specific thoughts on their roles in society.
I now live in a very small town where women and "other races" are still at the bottom of the totem pole and what makes it really hard to accept is that everyone plays their part the way it would have been in the 1860s - and they dont really explore that outside world where things have changed - so they are content with their :roles" - kinda makes it interesting to have discussions and see their responses compared to what I was raised with.

What this all boils down to is I believe that women (as well as men) will go for what their environment (in their minds) allows - some may be of the romance and "swept off their feet" mentality, while some are of the "get nasty with me right now - Im a woman that needs it and will tell you to your face - when its not between my legs" approach. It just shows the diversity (theres a PC term I love) of our world :)

God I ramble when I drink - hopefully this made a little sense |crazy|

[Ms Naughty]

Makes perfect sense Linkster. Every woman is different.

To bring this back to a porn context, I think it comes back to the mistaken belief that "what women want" is all the same, and the idea that "porn for women" equates only to soft lighting, log fires and romance.

This idea tends to get some women upset (if you've read my long argument with Furrygirl on another board, you'll see what I mean). Things get all tangled up with feminism, and "stereotypes", and other fun bits of theoretical social deconstruction. I can understand that they may be frustrated, but often their arguments end up disparaging or negating other women's legitimate experiences. Thus, Jackie, my rather riled up response.

The fact is that there should be a variety of niches within "for women" porn, just like there are with men, but we haven't quite got there yet. (Give me time.) There's still a majority of people in the industry don't even believe that women like porn at all. So, right now, "porn for women" still tends to mean naked beefcake men, Candida Royalle movies and relatively vanilla hetero couples.

If you look at the full-on hardcore stuff, all the language still targets it completely at men. There's no acknowledgement of a female audience whatsoever. So until that happens, I believe "porn for women" needs to exist as a concept.

OK, enough philosophy.

[tamara]

Personally, I like the "cumslut" variety of pics myself... but the problem is that right now there is an overwhelming amount of misogyny on most of the sites out there. Sites where women are implied to be being fucked while drunk and passed out, for example, do nothing for me. Those sites where women are supposedly craçk whores desperate for a fix, are a total turn-off to me. (And I wonder about the kind of guy who finds that sexy.)

Sites where a woman is a horny slut and wants sex, do. There is a huge difference, to me, namely one of clear and informed consent and obvious DESIRE. If the people having sex together are clearly turned on and having a blast, THAT is hot to me. I really believe that desire and enthusiasm are the key, at least for me they are!

On my site, I might do a rape fantasy shoot, in the larger context of the fact that it is my own site, people can see it is my own fantasy shoot, set up my own way, and that I enjoy it and would write about it both before and afterwards. Alone, something like that is just kind of scary.

I don't actually even know any women who like the romance-y kinds of things... I mean sites like that "For the girls" site are definitely not my kind of porn. To me it feels condescending almost. I KNOW that is not the way lots of women perceive it and I'm glad it sells well. I am for anything that allows women to feel sexually empowered, whether it floats my boat or not!

^5 to Jackie! Whom I did not think was putting down other women, btw. And why is it that when a woman says she's tired of being told what to want, she sounds bitter? BTW, feminism is all about creating choices for women. Multiple forms of porn do that, so I am all for it. But some of the "for women" sites exclude all other forms of porn which may be for women, and I'm honestly not for that.

[karomesis]

If the people having sex together are clearly turned on and having a blast, THAT is hot to me. I really believe that desire and enthusiasm are the key, at least for me they are!


It is for me as well, I am actually turned off by actors who barely seem to be involved let alone enjoying themselves. They should call it the zombie niche|shocking|

And the lighting in some of the shoots, where are they shooting? walmart? fucking ugly as hell flourescent lighting makes people look old and tired. If you're gonna give the actors hundreds or thousands, at least invest some in decent shoots and good lighting.

[swingingina]

thats a great question.... I think you will get different types of women who surf, but not sure how many will actually sign up.... most are probably browsing

[stuveltje]

i wonder if straight girls with an fantasie <------(focus on fantasie, so not a bisexual girl) about having sex with a woman would sign in for a lesbian site, now to be real if i look at the dutch lesbian woman in real life, they all look like guys and definitly not like the woman on girl for girl sites |huh so a for woman site could be also a lesbian site or a threesome site, or an shemale, shemale fucks girl.........oke now i have done it, i confused myself like hell |loony|

[Ms Naughty]

Sites where a woman is a horny slut and wants sex, do. There is a huge difference, to me, namely one of clear and informed consent and obvious DESIRE. If the people having sex together are clearly turned on and having a blast, THAT is hot to me. I really believe that desire and enthusiasm are the key, at least for me they are!

I think it's not just you Tamara. I know I feel the same way. A hint of realism combined with context and enthusiasm make for good porn. And I would say many people, men and women, would agree.

But some of the "for women" sites exclude all other forms of porn which may be for women, and I'm honestly not for that.

Again, my point about niches. You can't be all things to all women. You don't hear people complaining that Hustler is unfair because it doesn't contain pissing or BDSM content.

That said, For The Girls is broadly vanilla, but the members area does contain a variety of content beyond the "standard" so there's a choice for those who want to enjoy other stuff.

"Porn For Women" is a handy niche label at present. It may be inaccurate, but it's useful. As I said above, this may change in time. We'll see.

[meechie]

Like I said in the other thread, I have a pornsite for women and it does ok. I did a poll of the month to see what they wanted to see on my site.. And Big dicks won hands down..LOL then came, threesomes girl/girl/guy and girl/guy/guy then it was lesbian. So I try to stick to those subjects in my blog and it seems to work. I talk to them like I would talk to any other girl friends..They also like to see how to things..Like how to give a better blow job..LOL there favorite so far is how to squirt. I have mostly sold memberships to big dicks and of course everyones favorite the dating sites.
Women are alot harder to sell to then men that is for sure, but we need more content out there its very limited and hard to find stuff that isn't gay related.

[tickler]

So, right now, "porn for women" still tends to mean naked beefcake men, Candida Royalle movies and relatively vanilla hetero couples.
From a female reporter looking for 4-Women porn.

Porn should keep a pulse on women’s needs
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/articles.asp?id=37442

[Ms Naughty]

Yes I read that. She watches one older Candida Royalle movie and suddenly she's an expert LOL
I sent her an email

[WildChyld]

Over the years some of my most dedicated members have been women and they have varied in their tastes as widely as the men! Most of them say that they enjoy the honesty of my site, some say that they like that I seem in charge of my sexuality, while others really love the nastier stuff.
When I surf online I tend to be most attracted to really hardcore stuff that is obviously not posed but when I'm looking for a video I want something that is both pretty and dirty (Ninn movies mostly)
Sex positive movies like Candida Royalles are definately a valuable tool, especially for women and couples who are uncomfortable with full on porn expression but lets be realistic. People graduate beyond that more quickly than they outgrow a one inch diameter butt plug, once you slide it in you only want more. tee hee

[Cherie]

I have bought memberships to paysites a good number of times, and I have a couple that I've joined for a month or two every year for several years running. I would probably buy a lot more porn if *MY* site was making a profit! |loony|

My husband, while he has a HUGE collection of naughty pics harvested from usenet over the years, has never once bought a site membership. Not even when I offered to get him one for Valentine's day.

Of course, I am totally non-stereotypical in my purchases: I go for hentai and extreme bdsm art sites mostly. Stuff which is perhaps not so easy to find for free. He goes for skinny waifs in panties, which are a dime a dozen.

I've not had any women members yet, but I had several lady fans when I was doing CamZ shows. They often spoke of loving my honesty, openness, and genuine orgasms. I've thought about marketing my site toward women, but I kinda feel I wouldn't know how to go about it - I've been off the pussy market for a decade and don't really feel like I know how to chat up a non-male person anymore. |huh My content is mostly me cumming in various ways, so there's a definite focus on female pleasure, and while my stunt-cock (hubby) isn't really beefcake material the genuine enthusiasm & affection of our couples scenes might, I think, appeal to a lot of women. It turns me on to watch our stuff anyway.|bananna|

If I weren't so afraid of the Jesus-police I would LOVE to start a rape fantasy site for/by women. I know it's a hugely common fantasy for women, and I think it would be super to have a "safe" place where women could enjoy that fantasy without feeling truly denigrated.

[karomesis]

If I weren't so afraid of the Jesus-police I would LOVE to start a rape fantasy site for/by women. I know it's a hugely common fantasy for women, and I think it would be super to have a "safe" place where women could enjoy that fantasy without feeling truly denigrated.

You do realize it is politically incorrect to speak of such things openly?|club| The thought police are on their way.

Actually, if it was a guy posting that, he probably would've recieved death threats by now.|shocking|

[Tyranni]

Well, I have had a membership to one bdsm site several years ago, which I had a hard time unsubscribing from and left me wary of others, then, say, oh, 2 years ago I was a member of waterbondage.com for several months, a site I just couldn't resist. I have had a membership at ifriends.net for about 3 years now, but I do live cam shows there. I bought a few short cam shows from other chathosts a while ago. Typically I am more likely to purchase a fetish magazine or buy a DVD than a subscription to a website, frankly because I produce the stuff and it isn't so appealing to me, and I am at the computer far too often to want to sit around on it for longer following any paysites. I don't know if I am representative, however, I do not know of any of my female friends who would subscribe to a paysite, at least they don't admit it, and we talk pretty openly about such things. I have a couple of female members, or at least the name on their card is.

[Ms Naughty]

Nancy Friday documented the popularity of female rape fantasies in My Secret Garden in the 70s. The thing is, it's never about real rape. It's about being forced to be pleasured, about not having to take responsibility for your own pleasure. The female's needs are the focus, not the male's.

Interestingly, when she released Women on Top 20 years later she found that the rape fantasy wasn't as big. She said women had become more relaxed about their sexuality in the meantime. There was less guilt. So there was no need to rely on a rape fantasy to assuage that guilt.

It would be tricky to depict the powerplay of that fantasy in photos or video. And, yes, the Jesus people would be after you because they wouldn't be able to pick up on the different context. Rape in porn is a dangerous topic.

[karomesis]

Rape in porn is a dangerous topic.

I once had a girlfreind that wanted to be choked while I fucked her (sexual asphyxia) and beat as well. The sexual predilections between two parties are not the business of ANYONE else .....ever.

So I agree with you Grandma on the danger aspect, but why? because of puritannical morons who wish to impart their morality on the planet.|huh

Morality is subjective and a progeny of local custom, never universal.

Sadean nihilism is the truth, like it or not.

I tire of suffering fools.|angry|

[Cherie]

Oh, so many interesting threads tangled together here I don't even know where to begin!

It would be a very interesting test, I think, if one of the "For Women" LL owners added some sort of special section for the rougher stuff.

I remember reading My Secret Garden, but I didn't know she wrote a followup. I base my assesment on just my own experiences and the people I've met. I have personally gone hunting for the more violent stuff, and whenever I find it I'm not the only woman there looking. Rape fantasies may only be a very tiny proportion of all female fantasies but that doesn't mean there aren't millions of women having them; possibly even enough to support it as a porn niche. And this isn't even beginning to touch the other side of this particular coin, extreme Femdom fantasies.

Many feminists, as well as the Jesus-police, would object to the whole "she ended up enjoying it" theme of the classic female rape fantasy; after all it's not how real women really react to real crimes. But (leaving aside the issue of whether the availablity of such porn somehow turns men into rapists, which is itself highly debatable) I am not so sure that *that* style of fantasy is actually the norm.

For instance, my in own fantasies of this type, I prefer to imagine acts that not only would I *not* do in real life, but which are physically impossible - accosted by a handsome stranger and "forced" to have an orgasm I can play at anytime with dh. Eg. the guys always have dicks as big around as your arm and can cum seventeen times in three hours, shooting voluminous loads each time. (Hence the cartoons, rather than pics or movies.) Perhaps because there's not much I really wouldn't do with a consenting partner, I guess I feel the need for a complete break from the possible in these fantasies. (Could this be a sort of alternate response to the lessening of sexual guilt observed by Nancy Friday?) Interestingly enough, in my fantasies I also often (but not exclusively) assume the role of the male aggressor; I force myself to submit to my own raging desire, and I am also the irresistable object of lust, the hot piece that my desire must posses. And none of them wear my actual body, lol!

In my whopping 36 years of experience (|loony| ), it seems to me that everybody's fantasies (both men and women) are so very individual, their sources and the psychologial meanings each person ascribes to them so unique, that it is next to useless to speculate about any kind of commonality.

Why is it - if it is not a symptom of psychological or societal damage - that so many humans, male and female, have sexual fantasies involving dominance, submission and violence? Simply because the emotions involved - fear, anger, etc - invoke the exact same physical responses as sexual arousal. To your body, it's the same (or nearly the same) thing, and sex is all about what happens in the body, is it not? I think some of us like our sex spiced with extra helpings of those feelings in the same way as some folks like spicy foods, or get a kick out of skydiving. I also think that the presence of violent fantasy porn - and accompanying educational resources - is an excellent way of dealing with these urges, which might perhaps lead to real crimes if not diverted, or perhaps only to lives of dissatisfaction for those whose cravings go unfulfilled.

If I *were* to make rape-fantasy porn I think I would, rather than just make vids or whatever with the "she ended up enjoying it" approach, provide a behind-the-scenes look at each model and/or production. Kind of "yeah, hi, this is me and I'm gonna do this kinky scene because it turns me on and it's a fun way to make a buck." The scene itself could then either follow the classic forced-to-enjoy-it pattern or take a more brutish tone, and it would still be clear (one hopes) to the viewer that the participants are consenting.

Some folks I know would insist that this wouldn't be enough, that even those bits could be faked by an unscrupulous enough pornmeister, and I guess this is also true. But at some point the right/ability to say NO has to also mean the right/ability to say YES. Even if it's yes to making, buying, and viewing stuff that many would find distasteful.

Have I |angry| ed too much? I apologize...I've been celebrating a little, hehehe|cheers|

[susanna]

Cherie

You have touched on the very meaning/root of the rape fantasy. To be lusted and desired so much that someone would TAKE their pleasure risking the fact you may not enjoy it and in fact be traumatized. The woman with this fantasy is not thinking about how she might be totally freaked out by a real rape just as 99.999999% of real women are.

To be lusted after so much that a man is out of control.
To be lusted after so much that a man takes me.
To be lusted after so much that, in the end, my mind is blown away by matched passion for my attacker.

There is another way that women play this lust for lust out. They partake in the D/s relationship. A woman assumes the submissive role in order to be told what she will do. She will not be responsible for her actions and can be taken by 50 men in one night if it is her masters wishes. In D/s the rape scene is played out in public scenes where the master invites some other master watching to take what he wants from his submissive. When I say public I would imagine this is not at a fet night but a public invite only party for example. Anyways, what I am getting at is that the "being taken without my permission" part of the fantasy is also done by groups of people who do not name this a rape fantasy.

A few other points on this. First off you ALWAYS have to show consent. The BDSM community is video taping all of their scenes. They always film a before interview where they ask her previous experience and what she is expecting today. Then they ask after how she liked it etc. It is the ONLY way to show consentualism. If you want to have a pretend rape paysite, you MUST CLEARLY show consent. This starts with how you word your tour text and ends with this type of before/after interviewing of the model.

The sleeping sex sites pretended to be rape fantasy sites when they first came out and thought that this was fine...that the women really wanted it. There was enough uproar about how you can't just verbalize on a message board that you are not pushing real degredation of women, your tour must say its pretend or about fantasy.

On the issue of porn for women. Of course we are not meeting all womens needs. We have three sites worthy of mention. For the Girls, Sssh and the Clothed Female Naked Male sites are actually making tours that say "heh we are a for women porn site" of course there are other sites that women will like. Example of a site women like might be a femdom site but personally, a site that is femdom where the man always gets sucked or wanked off in the end is not true to its niche...instead its true to men (as usual). So a femdom, lesbian, big cock, total fuck slut etc site made by women for women would be a nice twist. People will say 'what about that site where there are two women who rape men'? That site is still all about the guy getting off and so to me the focus is not enough on the women. If they are trying to meet the needs of females, some of the men would be left high and dry.

The last point I want to make is about the rape fantasy again. I personally have enough respect for those who have gone through a real rape trauma to never make such a site. I will always fight against any porn mongerer that will not show consentualism up front and center in their tour pictures (harder) and text (very very easy to do) and inside their members area. I have respect for men and women and children and WILL NOT stand by while others go for the dollar vs. humankind. They can hide behind the "freedom of speech" arguement all they want but its not appropriate to produce hurtful material.

If a rape fantasy site can be made where the tour and content make it very clear that its all about the fantasy that WOMEN have, then I think it will go over better with the authorities. I would imagine this is the very reason there are few if any of these sites.



.

[Simon]

But at some point the right/ability to say NO has to also mean the right/ability to say YES.

YES! |bananna|

I very much look forward to the day when enough people agree that we've fought for the right to say "no" long enough and turn some of their energies to the fight for the right to say "yes" to more things. Sometimes it seems there is so much attention paid to all the variations of "No Means No" and "Just Say No" that no one is remembering/teaching/learning that "Yes Means Yes" is something of value too.

Okay, I'm back out. I just wanted to say that I'm a big believer in the right to say YES.

[karomesis]

Why is it - if it is not a symptom of psychological or societal damage - that so many humans, male and female, have sexual fantasies involving dominance, submission and violence? Simply because the emotions involved - fear, anger, etc - invoke the exact same physical responses as sexual arousal. To your body, it's the same (or nearly the same) thing, and sex is all about what happens in the body, is it not? I think some of us like our sex spiced with extra helpings of those feelings in the same way as some folks like spicy foods, or get a kick out of skydiving. I also think that the presence of violent fantasy porn - and accompanying educational resources - is an excellent way of dealing with these urges, which might perhaps lead to real crimes if not diverted, or perhaps only to lives of dissatisfaction for those whose cravings go unfulfilled.


I agree.


The fact of the matter is, individual freedom is so valuble, I would stand up for people whos ideas and desires i hate just because their freedom to choose what they wish so long as it harms no one is that important to me.

Okay, I'm back out. I just wanted to say that I'm a big believer in the right to say YES.

I am too.|thumb

I stand for absolute freedom for myself and others, it is irrelevant if I like or dislike what they choose to do, what is relevant however, is that it's none of my godamn business.

[susanna]

I stand for absolute freedom for myself and others, it is irrelevant if I like or dislike what they choose to do, what is relevant however, is that it's none of my godamn business.


I have a question for you...those people who say ABSOLUTES like you just did. Is it really appropriate to say every person has absolute freedom? What about the rules of not harming another person (without their consent)? So you are saying a rapist has the individual freedom to rape?

[karomesis]

Susanna, Did you actually read my post?


so long as it harms no one


The condition of freedom was so long as it harmed no one else.


Is it really appropriate to say every person has absolute freedom?

In the future, they will.

[Tommy]

is it just me or are all the chicks in this buisness really kinky :)

is there any one that would wanna submit 4women sites to tommys but cant because the partner accounts are closed
if so just PM me and something can be worked out

[Tommy]

I now live in a very small town where women and "other races" are still at the bottom of the totem pole and what makes it really hard to accept is that everyone plays their part the way it would have been in the 1860s - and they dont really explore that outside world where things have changed - so they are content with their :roles" - kinda makes it interesting to have discussions and see their responses compared to what I was raised with.


you should move !!!!!

everyone that lives in the south that has.. uhh whats the word .... thoughts.... should move to the north

come up to NY we have the best tasting water and ya can get really good begals at 4am

[susanna]

Yes I read it but you did not put that part in your final comment. I was making a point.

[Useless]

So you are saying a rapist has the individual freedom to rape?Don't be a such a sensationalist. You're smarter than that. I have testes and I know that that is not what she meant. Is it really necessary that she lists the things which she wouldn't like absolute freedom for?

1. No freedom to rape.
2. No freedom to dip cats in gasoline and set them ablaze.
3. No more than 10 items in an express lane.

[karomesis]

Is it really necessary that she lists the things which she wouldn't like absolute freedom for?

I think so Useless, from now on, I'll list them in sequential order, from least offensive to most, ending with #3 on your list.The sheer horror of it all, sometimes I wake up in a cold sweat thinking about that lady with 24 items who used change to pay.|shocking|