Why sites like Sleep Assualt are a bad idea

[RawAlex]

http://hartfordadvocate.com/gbase/News/content?oid=oid:144020

Once again, the net gets blamed for college guys being horny enough to do something stupid (and that really should be criminal).


Discuss amoungst yourselves. I am a little verklempt right now. :)

Alex

[Bill]

Not a terribly strong argument. Everything gets blamed on the net now, just as a hundred years ago everything was blamed on the dime novel, and 500 years ago everything was blamed on that infernal printing press.

Cro Magnon probably blamed everything on the horrible invention of fat-and-charcoal cave paintings. Then they started to use red ochre and the whole world went to hell in a handbasket.

And boys and men have been doing sexual things to sleeping women for a million years. This isn't a new phenomenon, something no boy ever thought of doing before the internet.

Now, if you were to say this is an example of how the media will scapegoat porners, I'd agree with that.

Which is why I think we need to give the politicians a scapegoat for their ritual humiliations and torture. And that scapegoat should be spammers bulkers and toolbar installers.

If we don't give the politicians the spammers and scumware boys, they will be just as happy to use us as their scapegoat.

[GenXer]

It's pretty extreme and not my cup of tea, I'd never promote it. However, it's their prerogative as long as it is legal.

[LB]

For those of you who may have seen the sleepassault original tour before they toned down some of the text, you would know the true nature of the site.

Thing is that those sorts of soft rape sites will be used against all of us eventually in a global effort to discredit our industry further. Too many programs are going for extreeme and shock to pull sales. It can only backfire eventually.

[frankthetank]

It´s the most easy way for politicians to blame porn or the internet for crimes. There won´t be scientific proof that porn drives persons into criminals. Just try to define porn.

But it´s a good and popular position to cut off freedom of speech. I won´t defend those guys, it´s a crime and just not right. But porn - whatever that means - isn´t the reason for it.

[plateman]

they sell guns and ammo and you can watch tv with people shooting other people, look how many shows were challenged for giving people the urge and idea to kill people.... those shows are still on tv...

I agree it doesnt look good...

[RawAlex]

Porn is now the "two black youths" of online crime. We are generically blamed for everything from online addiction to divorce, murder, rape, and every other scam in the world. I am sure that they have managed to make those nigerian "409" scams look like the fault of porn somehow.

It's pretty disgusting.

Alex

[juggernaut]

Well in this day and age we all know most people are always looking to point a finger at someone else for there lack of parenting skills. I understand that there's only so much a parent can do and in the end the child will grow up to be their own person. But I still think beating the shit out of your kids is a good thing. Not giving them broken bones or black eyes, but a serious ass kicking. I was beat down with anything my mom could get her hands on, most of the time it was a leather belt that she wore around her neck. It taught me a very good lesson, fuck up and you get punished. For every bad action there will be a bad reaction. My dad was differant, he let me learn from my own mistakes. Like the time I was playing with a 9 volt battery. He let me put it on my tounge and I learned very fast not to do that. That's how you parent your kids. Not putting them in a corner for a time out.
I never got the whole sleep sex thing. Any normal human knows the person is not really sleeping, but then again I think it was Albert Einstein who said "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." You are always going to have those dumbass people who just have no control over themselves. I don't know what's going on in this world today with the youth, but man I have to think the internet is not helping. Seriously what where these morons thinking? Hey it would be cool to jerk off on a sleeping girl?
Well we all know those type of sites will never be good for the adult world. People put them up for 1 reason only $$$$. Greed is the mother of stupidity.

[MrYum]

Yea, I just rejected a site last night that was along that sleep assault theme. Only in this case, both the free site and the paysite were quite clear...the girl was being drugged and/or boozed up until she passed out...so she could have no say in the matter |crazy|

Don't care how ya slice it...that shit's just wrong |angry|

[gregtx]

simulated rape... isn't a great idea.. kinda like fake snuff.. just puts a target on ones head... risk vs reward I guess...

[Carl]

This is no good...

Why not just blame the dumb ass guys who did this?

I am sure they didn't see a porn site telling them to do it!

It said they watched "pornography" to get up for the occasion.

It didn't say they looked it up on the internet. Some how the person who wrote the article still found a way to blame porn on the internet; maybe they should blame the adult video stores? Maybe they own that shit on DVD?

Seems like they blame the internet for every thing these days…

I guess they can blame porn if they like... It doesn’t matter if it was from the internet or not.

I still say blame the guys who did it! Not porno?

I am sure the guy who did this in 1994 at Baylor University didn’t have the internet as an excuse. (maybe)

[gregtx]

This is no good...

Why not just blame the dumb ass guys who did this?

I am sure they didn't see a porn site telling them to do it!

It said they watched "pornography" to get up for the occasion.

It didn't say they looked it up on the internet. Some how the person who wrote the article still found a way to blame porn on the internet; maybe they should blame the adult video stores? Maybe they own that shit on DVD?

Seems like they blame the internet for every thing these days…

I guess they can blame porn if they like... It doesn’t matter if it was from the internet or not.

I still say blame the guys who did it! Not porno?

I am sure the guy who did this in 1994 at Baylor University didn’t have the internet as an excuse. (maybe)


people are idiots and sheep... look at all of the disclaimers on "jackass" and fear factor.. and then people go out and do those stunts... those shows get blammed too.. luckily i'm sure they have legal already built into their budget... I hope this site does as well... lawsuits are expensive... again.. risk vs reward... would suck to make $1M and spend more than half of that defending oneself in court.. just b/c its a first amendment right..

[[BV]]

Blame it on Elvis, blame it on Elvis.

It's the American way!

[Halfdeck]

Nah, blame it all on Bush. It seems to fly :D

[SirMoby]

I've expressed by opinions about Sleep Assult, Bang Bus and the likes and I've stated clearly I will never support any of them.

However, since the cold war is over people need someone to hate and blame for their own failures. The far right has chosen porn and free speech. Not only does hate help unite and control a population but in this case it also created a billion dollar industry and guess who's cashing in?

[Quagmire]

The question I have to ask of the more experienced webmasters who have been around for a while is this; do you avoid the sponsor with a site like that completely or just choose not to promote that specific site?

[[BV]]

The question I have to ask of the more experienced webmasters who have been around for a while is this; do you avoid the sponsor with a site like that completely or just choose not to promote that specific site?


Sometimes you have to avoid the whole sponsor because sometimes it can be difficult to avoid promoting one of their sites even though you don't care to.

For example: It is very common for sponsors to post all of their sites on their join page for each site. Also in their consoles and other promotional materials may have references and or links advertising the specific site you did not want to promote.

In a case like that you would have to skip the whole sponsor.

If none of the above issues are a problem then I see no reason why you would skip a whole sponsor because they have one site that you do not want to promote. (as long as it is legal)

[SirMoby]

The question I have to ask of the more experienced webmasters who have been around for a while is this; do you avoid the sponsor with a site like that completely or just choose not to promote that specific site?
That's a question that has lead to much debate with no clear winner. You have to make your own choices on that one. Sites like this are created because many webmasters will promote them like crazy.

Personally I don't promote any sponsor that pretends to be taking advantage of women in any way. That includes sites where they pretend to trick the girl, get her drunk, offer her money or rape her in her sleep.

That being said, I have many close freinds that do support these types of sites and I don't give any thought to them doing it. I just make my own choices.

[SexySearch_Ron]

How many webmasters promote Max Hardcore stuff? that stuff is pretty extreme.

[Quagmire]

I try and limit my promotions based on my gut feeling. To me perfectgonzo's stuff is the upper edge of reasonable. I don't go for the painful sex stuff, I think its degrading. But on the flip side of that the reality sites that "pay" the women for sex is no different from prostitution (which i don't really have a moral issue with) or the fact that the rest of the models being filmed are getting paid, just not on camera.

Assault, simulated rape and abuse are definately out. There is nothing healthy about that. To me it steps beyond the consentual level of BDSM.

[MrYum]

I try and limit my promotions based on my gut feeling. To me perfectgonzo's stuff is the upper edge of reasonable. I don't go for the painful sex stuff, I think its degrading. But on the flip side of that the reality sites that "pay" the women for sex is no different from prostitution (which i don't really have a moral issue with) or the fact that the rest of the models being filmed are getting paid, just not on camera.

Assault, simulated rape and abuse are definately out. There is nothing healthy about that. To me it steps beyond the consentual level of BDSM.
That pretty much mirrors my thoughts...so saved myself some typing...thanks Q :D

[Jim]

The question I have to ask of the more experienced webmasters who have been around for a while is this; do you avoid the sponsor with a site like that completely or just choose not to promote that specific site?
I would always do business with John. If you don't like a site, don't promote it.

[RawAlex]

I avoid sites I don't like... and for me they do to a certain extent count against the sponsor as a whole. I don't go out of my way to promote their other stuff. They shouldn't be encourages to do the other stuff.

Alex

[SlickRick]

Well people will blame others (Not just the stuff they see and or hear on the net.)

If you are somewhat old enough to remember news of the past.

people listening to "Heavey Metal" music and going out and shooting someone or attempting to kill themselves, from what they've heard in a song (A kid hearing in an Ozzy song killing himself and the parents of the kid blaming the Ozzy camp and going//went to court over it,) or something they've seen in a video game.

Car jacking (Or harming someone else) for fun is not a wise thing.

Not to downplay the seriousness of this. But people will always blame someone for something real stupid they've done, because they don't want to take the blame and or punishment for their actions. And thats a sad state of the future.




Something I read a while back and saved.
(I am sure this has been seen by many and still holds up and is pretty true, for anyone thats over the age of 26+ years old.)


TO ALL THE KIDS WHO SURVIVED the 1930's 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's !!

First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they carried us.

They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a can, and didn't get tested for diabetes.

Then after that trauma, our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead-based paints.

We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets, not to mention, the risks we took hitchhiking.

As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags.

Riding in the back of a pick up on a warm day was always a special treat.

We drank water from the garden hose and NOT from a bottle.

We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and NO ONE actually died from this.

We ate cupcakes, white bread and real butter and drank soda pop with sugar in it, but we weren't overweight because WE WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!

We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the streetlights came on.

No one was able to reach us all day. And we were O.K.

We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then ride down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.

We did not have Playstations, Nintendo's, X-boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, no video tape movies, no surround sound, no cell phones, no personal computers, no Internet or Internet chat rooms...WE HAD FRIENDS and we went outside and found them!

We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents.

We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever.

We were given BB guns for our 10th birthdays, made up games with sticks and tennis balls and although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes.

We rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or rang the bell, or just walked in and talked to them!

Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!!

The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law!

This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers, problem solvers and inventors ever!

The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.

We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned HOW TO DEAL WITH IT ALL!
And YOU are one of them! CONGRATULATIONS!

You might want to share this with others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before the lawyers and the government regulated our lives for our own good. And while you are at it, forward it to your kids so they will know how brave their parents were.

Kind of makes you want to run through the house with scissors, doesn't it?!

[tigermom]

The article places the focus on Bukkake which is odd. I promote Bukkake sites and I don't see it as being degrading or harmful to women in any way. Yes, it places the object of the Bukkake (be it man or woman) in a submissive position, but I don't see that as wrong. There's a HUGE difference to me as a woman and as a person between foced (non-consentual) and submissive.

I am not even sure that sites where the girl is portrayed as being tricked or paid money are very bad either. I mean, it's a sexual fantasy, a roleplay, and there's no implication of using physical force there. Some women can find these scenarios very appealing, for the very reason that the girl in the scene has the "excuse" to be sexually liberated, something still not that common for most of women. Would it be ok had someone been using these tactics for real? of course not! But this is make belief and I should hope most people have enough sense to know as much.

[RawAlex]

Tigermom, I think the issues comes because some people can't tell the difference and try to turn the harmless sexual fantasy into reality with an unwilling third party.

We know that everyone gets paid, everyone signs a model release, and everyone is old enough and willing. But the general public doesn't, and telling them about it could in fact kill the fantasies of the 99% of clients who are not going to have an issue with the stuff.

It is a really difficult situation.

How many people died from lying in the middle of a highway after that college football movie? There are just enough people dumb enough to try something to make it a problem.

Alex

[Seska]

As pornographers we walk a very delicate and dangerous line. Many of our consumers want to believe what they see. They want the sex to be real, the arousal to be real, the pain to be real, etc... They want us to be different from mainstream Hollywood productions (with its stunt people, saftey measures and well rescted actors).

With the Internet, as well as adult video companies (especially those workign in the fringe areas of the industry) it is hard for the general public to know what is acting and what is not. That can increase people's interest in a product or it can turn them off. Some people want it to be very clear that what they are seing is safe, sane and consenual (and accept it is a fantasy version of sexuality), while others want the exact oppositie or at least hope for the illusion of the opposite.

Like Alex said there are a bunch of porn consumers who don't care one bit about the well being of performers or the porn industry in general as long as they get off on what they see.

[MrYum]

As pornographers we walk a very delicate and dangerous line. Many of our consumers want to believe what they see. They want the sex to be real, the arousal to be real, the pain to be real, etc... They want us to be different from mainstream Hollywood productions (with its stunt people, saftey measures and well rescted actors).

With the Internet, as well as adult video companies (especially those workign in the fringe areas of the industry) it is hard for the general public to know what is acting and what is not. That can increase people's interest in a product or it can turn them off. Some people want it to be very clear that what they are seing is safe, sane and consenual (and accept it is a fantasy version of sexuality), while others want the exact oppositie or at least hope for the illusion of the opposite.

Like Alex said there are a bunch of porn consumers who don't care one bit about the well being of performers or the porn industry in general as long as they get off on what they see.
Good points Seska |thumb

There are some that push the limits too far however. Last night, I rejected a drunk girls site. While I don't like those sites period. This one was way over the line. The free site and the paysite both made it quite clear that the girl was in fact being fed booze to make her compliant. Okay, that's pretty much the focus of most of those sites...which is why I don't personally peddle that stuff. But yea...it's fantasy...it's not real...etc..

The real difference was noticed when I watched a couple of the sponsor watermarked video clips on the free site. Either this girl was an amazing actress (not likely)...or she REALLY was falling down drunk. At one point, as the guy was trying to get her to suck his cock...she was saying something to the effect of "I don't want to". Of course the guys kept pushing until she complied. In the other clip I watched...the girl could barely keep her balance on hands and knees...the guy was kinda shoring her up as he fucked her. This girl was obviously polluted out of her mind...you could see it on her face...not fantasy...reality.

This mysoginistic kind of shit that calls consent into question is bad for the business |angry|

[Platinum Bryan]

Some pople are just fucked up period!!

[Toolz]

Good points Seska |thumb

There are some that push the limits too far however. Last night, I rejected a drunk girls site. While I don't like those sites period. This one was way over the line. The free site and the paysite both made it quite clear that the girl was in fact being fed booze to make her compliant. Okay, that's pretty much the focus of most of those sites...which is why I don't personally peddle that stuff. But yea...it's fantasy...it's not real...etc..

The real difference was noticed when I watched a couple of the sponsor watermarked video clips on the free site. Either this girl was an amazing actress (not likely)...or she REALLY was falling down drunk. At one point, as the guy was trying to get her to suck his cock...she was saying something to the effect of "I don't want to". Of course the guys kept pushing until she complied. In the other clip I watched...the girl could barely keep her balance on hands and knees...the guy was kinda shoring her up as he fucked her. This girl was obviously polluted out of her mind...you could see it on her face...not fantasy...reality.

This mysoginistic kind of shit that calls consent into question is bad for the business |angry|

Beyond that and I'm not a content producer but I'm about 99% sure that people under the influence of drugs/booze aren't required to fullfill a contract in this case the contract that she signed for the content to be produced, thus all content would be deemed illegal if the actress ever decided to persue action against the producers.

[MrYum]

Beyond that and I'm not a content producer but I'm about 99% sure that people under the influence of drugs/booze aren't required to fullfill a contract in this case the contract that she signed for the content to be produced, thus all content would be deemed illegal if the actress ever decided to persue action against the producers.
I don't know the legal ramifications of this type of 'content'. Frankly, I have a difficult time even referring to this crap as content. I would suspect you're right though...if a model ever pursued legal action, someone's ass would be in a sling.

I've always thought the issue of consent was absolutely critical in this business. The two words that have been my motto since getting involved in adult are 'consenting adults'. Anytime either of those words are called into question, it's got bad things written all over it...and not something I'd touch with the proverbial 10 foot pole. Given the current political climate, I think this 'so drunk we can make her do anything' kind of crap just gives more ammunition to the other side |angry|

[karomesis]

so long as individuals are reluctant to accept responsibility for their actions, they will, given proper training, attempt to blame their behavoir on anything and everything. Hey I robbed a bank because venus was out of alignment with pluto, or my father beat me when I was a child.So long as there are self righteous peoples, there will be individuals who disagree with one particular deviancy or another. There are some women who enjoy with great pleasure being chocked in order to orgasm intensely, it should be their perogative to do so, and no ones business but theirs if they suffer a mishap in the process. I enjoy driving cars very, very fast, If I die in a horrible wreck, It is my problem not anyone elses.

To those of you who believe that this "type" of site offers the requisite ammunition for prohibition, I will only say that the line is forever being changed, I am sure hugh heffner could speak on this peculiar phenomenon, in his heyday he was a veritable monster for revealing of all things; a breast|shocking| now it has come to this. They will ALWAYS look for an excuse to prohibit what they do not agree with, be it "sleepattack" sites or womens faces in the middle east. I know from experience, as I had the unfortunate occurence of being a fundamental baptist a few years ago> It was only my insatiable lust for information that saved me from a life of being a brainwashed sheep, I live to learn, and I soon learned that there was absolutely no proof for any religious doctrine whatsoever. So now I despise religion.|angry| I respect science, not fairy tales. And freedom of choice and self responsibility, not prohibition because there are individuals who are morons.

[Jim]

I have this great idea..
Let's all get together someplace down south and have a good old fashioned Book Burning

[Seska]

I have seen modelling and porn performing contracts that state that the person signing them was not under the influence of drugs or alcholol. It would be interesting to know if they are still valid if the work required of the person included drinking real alcohol.

[Surfn]

I have this great idea..
Let's all get together someplace down south and have a good old fashioned Book Burning
Why not just burn the Internet gateways :D

[Jim]

Surfn, we have to start with the books, then move to the movies, then music, then videos, then video games and then and only then we can burn the net. :)

[Jim]

"If all printers were determined not to print anything till they were sure it would offend nobody, there would be very little printed."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1730

[susanna]

"If all printers were determined not to print anything till they were sure it would offend nobody, there would be very little printed."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1730


that must mean that rape and child rape are ok because heaven forbid we should worry about offending someone.

I like to think (and I am often proven wrong) that even a webmaster has morals.

|banghead|

[american perv]

the tv news makes kids not care about gun violence and shoot up the schools but no one holds them responsible

[susanna]

the tv news makes kids not care about gun violence and shoot up the schools but no one holds them responsible


Is that so?

I live in Canada...we get exactly the same shows that you do in the US and we do not have kids going to school and shooting people. There has been two incidences that I can think of in the last 40 years and one of them was at a University.


What is the difference? I don't know but it certainly isnt the tv shows.

[Jim]

that must mean that rape and child rape are ok because heaven forbid we should worry about offending someone.

I like to think (and I am often proven wrong) that even a webmaster has morals.

|banghead|
As you can easily see, I am not the author of that post. Although, I wish I was that smart.

[american perv]

Is that so?

I live in Canada...we get exactly the same shows that you do in the US and we do not have kids going to school and shooting people. There has been two incidences that I can think of in the last 40 years and one of them was at a University.


What is the difference? I don't know but it certainly isnt the tv shows.

Its the evening news shows. Not 20/20 and 48 hours and that crap, I mean the local evening news.

Im pretty sure you don't watch the same news we do, where they glorify police chases, talk about shootings all the time, its morbid.

[american perv]

Is that so?

I live in Canada...we get exactly the same shows that you do in the US and we do not have kids going to school and shooting people. There has been two incidences that I can think of in the last 40 years and one of them was at a University.


What is the difference? I don't know but it certainly isnt the tv shows.


Also, I don't know what your local and national news shows report from various war reports, but ours are very graphic. Seeing dead bodies during dinner is nothing new.

[Ramster]

You cannot compare Canada to the US. The US has 10 times the population so it should have 10 times the violence and such. However it is well known the US is high in gun violence compared to other countries.

[Surfn]

You cannot compare Canada to the US. The US has 10 times the population so it should have 10 times the violence and such. However it is well known the US is high in gun violence compared to other countries.
Who you calling 10x more violent Willis? |angry|


|boobies| |boobies| |boobies|


|escape|

[karomesis]

there are, of course, variables which need to be statistically accounted for before a summation of the data can be made such as; per capita crime rate, socioeconomic status, race, and others that are "controversial". It is a well known fact that blacks commit more violent crime per capita that other races in the united states, is this "controversial"? why? because of race? is it not a well known fact that races are different? isn't that why they are called "races?

There is also an unfortunate occurence called the "cinderella effect" by evolutionary psychologists that says stepparents will not treat their stepchildren as well as their own children and will treat them with less than favorable affection. Statistics prove this as well, determining that step children are up to 40x more likely to be mistreated and killed by a stepparent than by a bilogical parent.

[tigermom]

there are, of course, variables which need to be statistically accounted for before a summation of the data can be made such as; per capita crime rate, socioeconomic status, race, and others that are "controversial". It is a well known fact that blacks commit more violent crime per capita that other races in the united states, is this "controversial"? why? because of race? is it not a well known fact that races are different? isn't that why they are called "races?

They are slightly different, sure, but that doesn't mean those differences necessarily account for things like level of violence. There are interim causes here. Poor people are more involved in crime, and blacks on general are more poor, so blacks are more involved in crime. This is not necessarily some genetic thing related to their race... The right way to check and see if the race is the cause would be to compare groups of blacks and whites of the same socio-economic status. I am not aware of any such studies and would be interesting to see if they find a difference.

Assuming that it's simply a matter of "races being different" is very very dangerous. It would imply that someone is more prone to violence solely because he was born into a certain ethnic group, something which he has zero control of and will never be able to change. I do believe it's callled racism?


There is also an unfortunate occurence called the "cinderella effect" by evolutionary psychologists that says stepparents will not treat their stepchildren as well as their own children and will treat them with less than favorable affection. Statistics prove this as well, determining that step children are up to 40x more likely to be mistreated and killed by a stepparent than by a bilogical parent.

Again, that statistic isn't really surprising, if you consider some of the interim causes involved here. I don't know about other countries, but here the state encourages families to adopt children by offering monetary incentives. It's more than possible that some of these families adopt the children, at least partially because of financial reasons and not out of true commitment. What's more, adopted children, especially those adopted at an older age (though not only), maybe more likely to have behavioral problems (no fault of theirs perhaps, given the poor start in life), hence bring about a less favorable treatment from the adopting parents. Just thoughts here, not saying this is the case, only that you need to treat researches with a grain of salt and look at them in a critical way.

[karomesis]

Again, that statistic isn't really surprising, if you consider some of the interim causes involved here. I don't know about other countries, but here the state encourages families to adopt children by offering monetary incentives. It's more than possible that some of these families adopt the children, at least partially because of financial reasons and not out of true commitment. What's more, adopted children, especially those adopted at an older age (though not only), maybe more likely to have behavioral problems (no fault of theirs perhaps, given the poor start in life), hence bring about a less favorable treatment from the adopting parents. Just thoughts here, not saying this is the case, only that you need to treat researches with a grain of salt and look at them in a critical way.

tigermom, Are you familiar with evolutionary psychology? or cognitive science? It is difficult to entertain your comments seriously if you are unfamiliar with the topic being discussed. I realize that many have been given a short stick;I had some really rough times in the past, so what. Does that mean I have a right to commit crimes and put my fellow citizenry in fear because I "had a rough start"?I moved on with my life and tried to better myself, that is what others should do as well.

I treat alot of researchers with that grain of salt you speak of, but when there are mountains of evidence in their favor I am reluctant to disagree with the findings.I could point you to a few of the sources of my information, here are two for your review http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/Group/BussLAB/publications.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Baysiean statistics are a favorite of mine due to their inherent ability to gather accurate data sets based on vague information like fuzzy logic. That is what I use to determine what researchers are worth listening to, I can wade through the rivers of bullshit in science while attempting to find the gold nuggets that exist for the determined.

[tigermom]

tigermom, Are you familiar with evolutionary psychology? or cognitive science? It is difficult to entertain your comments seriously if you are unfamiliar with the topic being discussed.


As it happens, I am quite familiar with research methods. Hopefully 5 university courses on the subject, both in BA and MA studies are enough for you to entertain my comments seriously?


I realize that many have been given a short stick;I had some really rough times in the past, so what. Does that mean I have a right to commit crimes and put my fellow citizenry in fear because I "had a rough start"?I moved on with my life and tried to better myself, that is what others should do as well.


This is hardly the issue here. No one is talking about what any other individual should or should not do or even does or does not do. This is about proper analysis of research data. Saying that race correlates to the level of crime is a simplistic reading of statistics, that was all I was saying. Being as there are so many other factors involved.

My point was that lower socio-economic status correlates to crime. And that race and socio-economic status also correlate. Does that mean that either one's socio economic background, or one's race, should be used as an excuse to commit crime? of course not.

I am glad to see that you do so much reading. If you can kindly refer me to a specific research that compares crime level by race and includes the socio-economic factor into the equation, that would certainly make an interesting read for me.

[tigermom]

BTW, forgot to mention I did take several courses in psychology/cognitive science, but that's not really the relevant field here. This is social sciences - it's a matter of knowing how to interpret statistics collected in research, not understanding the individual.

[karomesis]

Saying that race correlates to the level of crime is a simplistic reading of statistics, that was all I was saying. Being as there are so many other factors involved.

These methods are about as thorough as you can get.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_statistics
and this
http://www.anthropic-principle.com/primer.html