Need help /raided and computers seized

[webwoman]

wednesday afternoon at 2pm in enfield ct
my home was raided by the local and state police . There were over 30 officers some in uniforms some in plain clothes that stormed into my home shouting we have a search warrant. They ordered us to sit down on the couch .
I was never shown a search warrant only told that i would see it when they finished checking for whatever it was they were looking for.
I did not open the door to let them in they entered on their own.
I asked to see the warrant and they refused to show me.
The town that i live in approved my home based internet adult business along with a studio that i shoot content and video for my sites. i have all my legal paper work as far as taxes 2257 and zoning ect.
When they did not find what they were looking for they decided to take my 4 computers cameras all my business files and both rooms of furniture that we use for our shoots . I have a bdsm fetish website that they have decided to investigate. they told me it was illegal to pratice sadomasochism because it was a sex act the same as intercourse.
they told me spanking and any type of this play was prostitution. They made no arrest nor did they ever leave the warrant or the itemized list of things they took.
It took them 5 hrs to go through my house and dismantel and pack all of the so called evidence into their new forensic van. My sites are still up and running
I have called the freespeach collision today in hopes that they could help me with an attorney for my adult based business. My sold source of income comes from my websites and videos that i sell and people in the fetish lifestyle who help in the expenses associated with adult industry.
I was also setup when they had a man show up at my door saying that he was here for his spanking and that he was to give me 250 for it..
imagine having to park your car in the front of a house thats being raided with 30 police cars a hugh forensic van parked in my driveway and cops outside inside and everywhere ..the cops watched as the guy got out of his car walked through all the officers holding money in his hand claiming that he was told he would get a spanking session with EmpressM AND that it was 250. Tell me what kind of fool would come to the door seeing all that action going on and say he was here on business.

It was a setup ..still dont know why they raided me took all my stuff and left .
how do i get it back anyone have any information i can use to help fight this.
Michelle
i have seen other people who own sites raided as well. if its possible to talk about how they got through it. or who the contacted to help ..thank you for listening ..if i posted in the wrong area sorry about that but i understand this board to be one of the best sources of information and help.

[Surfn]

If things went down the way you say you have some serious law suites pending. Most of what you have said is illegal for them to do.

I would contact an attorney and or the ACLU and move forward. I doubt that you will get anything returned to you but you may get monetary relief.

[Bill]

In case you haven't been told this already, you should write down everything you can remember about this while it is still fresh in your mind. Take as many pictures as is safe to do and possible, write down everything that happens to you, with a note or estimate of the time, every name you can, every detail you can.

This will probably be worth it's weight in gold later, as these things take a while, and courts and lawyers are more responsive to notes and details.

If you can, keep us informed as things progress.

[Halfdeck]

I've met cops who have no respect for the law and they make me sick.

Your story kinda puts me on edge because I also live in CT. Hold them accountable for every line they cross and make them pay -- Otherwise they will continue raiding who knows how many other webmasters.

[furrygirl]

I'm sure you're at your wit's end trying to sort out what to do, but as Bill said, write everything down. Try and get everything you can down on paper, including officer names and badge numbers, if you have them.

Although many of them are hostile towards sex workers and pornographers, I would try and get in touch with some lefty groups in your area. Many "left" organizations have dealt with government harassment and bullshit searches, so they may have some good civil rights resources for you that are region-specific. You could try posting an account of your raid on the Danbury IMC http://www.madhattersimc.org and see if you get any helpful replies.

Best of luck, please keep us posted, and let us know what your sites are so the bloggers can get to work talking about your situation and possibly helping with legal fundraising.

[RawAlex]

webwoman, I will give you exactly one tip: Get a lawyer. A chat board isn't going to be able to help you with the issue you got. If your story is true, I have a feeling that your local police / community / neighbors have gotten together to get rid of you. The guy showing up with the money is a nice capper and that will go over really well.

Get a lawyer. Get a lawyer. Get a lawyer. Get a lawyer.

All other advice here is a waste of your time, and any post you make could be used against you in the future. Put a ball gag in your mouth and let a laywer do the talking.

Alex

[RawAlex]

I will also say this: I had a look at your website, and I see you soliciting for "donations" or "tips" or whatever for sessions, running between $300 and $1000 - and using epassporte to get paid for it.

You truly need a lawyer, I have a feeling (that if this thread is true) that you are in some seriously deep shit, and you won't be able to spank and whip your way out of this one.

Alex

[Hammer]

Gonna be hard to fight the prostition rap when you accept donations or tips for sexual services, whether it involves intercourse or not.

[Kath]

You truly need a lawyer, I have a feeling (that if this thread is true) that you are in some seriously deep shit, and you won't be able to spank and whip your way out of this one.

Alex

I have to say that I agree with Alex 100% on this. Get the lawyer and stop posting on the boards. Make sure the lawyer is experienced in adult Internet-based business law and has a solid reputation. I'm sure people could recommend quite a few here on the boards... the first that come to mind would be JD Obenberger (www.xxxlaw.net) and Larry Walters (www.firstamendment.com) - but I know there are loads of fantastic lawyers in our industry that have the experience and knowledge to help you out here.

THAT is the only advice you need now - getting a lawyer, getting one fast and getting a good one.

Good luck. |thumb

[babymaker]

hey, Alex where did you get the URL for the site?? i want to take a look too.

[SirMoby]

If you've been taking donations or tips then this is not a place to get advice. Actually even if your weren't it's still not a place to get legal advice. People will send you off in the wrong direction without posting anything helpful.

Talk to a lawyer. If you want some referrals of individual lawyers then ask for such.

All that being said. I'd take Bill's advice and document everything in great detail. I mean great detail. Good documentation can save your ass.

[RawAlex]

hey, Alex where did you get the URL for the site?? i want to take a look too.

I searched google for "EmpressM" and sort of followed along from there... I found her "personal" site no problem. I think epassporte people would flip if they knew what she was using her account for.

Alex

[Greenguy]

I searched google for "EmpressM" and sort of followed along from there... I found her "personal" site no problem. I think epassporte people would flip if they knew what she was using her account for.

AlexLet's not forget webmasters like me who are promoting the site & not getting a cut from the "donations"

[GonZo]

Let's not forget webmasters like me who are promoting the site & not getting a cut from the "donations"
Looks like she needs a lawyer for several reasons...

[babymaker]

Thanx Alex, I found it. She will probably be in trouble for the "prostitution" stuff can't really fight that. It says right on the website she does it and names a price, pretty hard to get out of.

[Tommy]

no offence but is it just me or does anyone else feel that sites like these hurt all of us

I feel that websites like these that sell illegal things like prostition
are exactly the type of sites that brings in goverment regulation

[RawAlex]

Tommy, sites like this do great harm to our business at the end of the day. They attempt to put acts that are likely illegal (including solicitation for prostituion, penetration with bondage, and the like) into the mainstream porn world, and when the shit hits the fan, they try to pull the cover of legal porn over themselves.

There are cam girls out there that, for a donation, will invite fans to do shows with them. I don't really see where this is different from prositution, but I guess they think they can cover themselves over with legal porn and think they are not doing anything wrong.

The enforcement officials are not that stupid.

Alex

[Tommy]

Alex
I agree 100% with you, Very well said

[Bill]

At first glance, the site looks like a normal 'amateur' bdsm femdom site.

But, upon deeper examination, it does seem to be soliciting money for sex acts.

Which does look like they are definitely breaking the law.

There exists a pretty large illegal dominitrix prostitute business around the country, but mixing it with legal porn is fucked up.

In general, I'm not a big fan of police and prosecutors. And everybody running any type of small porn production business out of their home has good reason to fear them.

But, that's not a legitimate porn site.

[Hammer]

I think it's ridiculous that prostitution is illegal and that a woman can't charge a man for having sex with her if she feels like it, but posting on an adult webmaster board after you get busted for prositition and comparing that to someone running an adult website is pretty lame.

[Ramster]

Alex, yes well said!!

Wow, I did not post before but to me it seems clear. You deserved to be raided and you are not an adult webmaster. You are a prostitute selling your services via a web site online...not the same IMO.

[RawAlex]

I would truly be interested to see how many of her "models" actually signed model releases without being under duress.

*sigh*

Alex

[furrygirl]

no offence but is it just me or does anyone else feel that sites like these hurt all of us

I feel that websites like these that sell illegal things like prostition
are exactly the type of sites that brings in goverment regulationMany of us have argued that the same goes for sites like Sleep Assault or Little April or Meat Holes. I guess it's easier to pick on someone who's not a major sponsor, though?

---

Anyhow, if EmpressM does come back, here's some additional advice from a fellow woman who's not going to lecture her about anything. If you are dealing with prostitution charges, an adult site lawyer may not be your best choice, or you may want to talk to two lawyers. Check out the California-based Sex Worker's Outreach Project, they should have some legal referrals for you: http://www.swop-usa.org/ $pread Magazine is a newer publication by and for all sorts of sex workers, they are based in NY and might have some regional referrals for you: http://www.spreadmagazine.org Hook Online is by and for men, but they are probably also worth contacting for legal counsel suggestions: http://www.hookonline.org Best of luck!

[Ramster]

furrygirl, yes there are many sites out there that are not good for "us".

[robwebster]

Though BDSM and Fetish are hard to understand let me try to provide you with these facts. I am a webmaster for Empressm.net. I work in conjunction with the videographer to produce and maintain the site. I can see how this can be misconstrued. If you are referring to her personal site fortressofpain.com, this site is not a part of our network of membership sites. As far as committing any crime, prostitution or otherwise, nobody was arrested or charged with any crime. As a matter of fact they were fully aware of our personal site which they paid no attention too. We are in a business district and the town zoning commission approved our business for use as an adult studio to shoot content for our adult websites. A lot of people who model for us also pay for classes using E-passport. We also have a photographer that does portfolio's for models who want fetish photos or videos These people are not prostitutes or doing any type of sex act. Their is no sex included in any of our sites. bdsm does not include --intercourse, anal. oral or otherwise
its FETISH FETISH BDSM MEANS SPANKING .FOOT WORSHIP, ROLE PLAYING AND ALL TYPES OF ACTING

NOT SEX..please read carefully before you accuse anyone for a crime and make a statement such as being busted, arrested or charge.
this is about them entering into a home business just like they can enter into yours...
THANK YOU FOR ALL THE ADVICE
The freespeach coalition has referred us to an attorney who is taking our case ..the website will remain up and i will not let anyone violate my rights.
Robert

[lassiter]

It was a setup ..still dont know why they raided me took all my stuff and left .
how do i get it back anyone have any information i can use to help fight this.


Possibly even more useful to contact in these cases than the ACLU is the NCSF (National Coalition for Sexual Freedom - http://www.ncsfreedom.org/

They specialize in legal issues concerning both lifestyle and professional BDSM practices.

[Chop Smith]

Rob, why the initial post of this? It certainly can only hurt your program. I, for one, questioned Cash4Fetish being listed on an adult resource page in lieu of this being made public.

I just cannot figure why folks air their legal problems in public?

[furrygirl]

Rob, why the initial post of this? It certainly can only hurt your program. I, for one, questioned Cash4Fetish being listed on an adult resource page in lieu of this being made public.

I just cannot figure why folks air their legal problems in public?Actually, if it fit my traffic better, I would be *more* inclined to link to a site that was going through tough times. I think that more than trying to garner attention from webmasters for their affiliate program, they were reaching out for support from a community, but sadly, there seems to be more animosity and "Egads, a hooker!" than anything else on this thread.

[furrygirl]

Possibly even more useful to contact in these cases than the ACLU is the NCSF (National Coalition for Sexual Freedom - http://www.ncsfreedom.org/

They specialize in legal issues concerning both lifestyle and professional BDSM practices.Good one! Thanks for contributing something helpful.

[RawAlex]

furrygirl, it isn't "egads a hooker"... it is the discredit that comes to our industry when a working girl attempts to cloak herself in the "I am a webmaster" deal, looking for sympathy from our industry, all the while openly soliciting directly on the same websites we are suppose to send traffic to?

She openly solicites on the website, uses the standard "I don't charge a fee, but there is a manditory donation" doubletalk. In reality, this women appears to have built a full dungeon in her house in a residential area, and is accepting paying cusotmers for BDSM and sexual encouters.

This likely has little to do with "censorship" or "obscenity", and more to do with being caught being a prostitute and soliciting online for business.

Alex

[Tommy]

"Egads, a hooker!"

that's really funny

are you implying that we are prudes ??

to tell you the truth it crossed my mind a little while after this thread got going
I started thinking that maybe I am getting to old
but then I thought

how could I be a prude
I am a pornographer...... and a damn good one at that

but either way Again I am standing with Alex

[Beaver Bob]

this has nothing to do with 2257 neither.. completley unrelated. it HAS to be prostitution and I must agree with Greenguy.

[Chop Smith]

I think I can read fairly well and I just reread this thread. Furrygirl, I fail to detect any animosity or anyone being judgmental.

I stand with Tommy and Aliex. I think publicity like this hurts our industry.

I do not think the initial poster was trying to garner attention from webmasters for their affiliate program. As I said, the initial post can only hurt their program. For certain, reputable webmasters will pull their links. Had the post not been made, 600+ webmasters would not have known about it.

There is a time to keep your fucking mouth closed.

[tickler]

Well it boils down to whether "sex" is involved or not.

[webwoman]

beaver bob you built my site cash4fetish sitting here after i flew 5 of you from arizona to ct to finish my sites. You also were in my videos, programmed my sites and slept in my home for the weekend. I paid 2000 to fly you all here plus 2000 for cash4fetish
and 300 for each site template. Look at thumbdesigners where the site was created and solicited to me via the owners of hardcoremodeling. I was over charged and more than gracious in accomadating all 5 of you here in my home business, when your crew took over 10,000 dollars you were not saying any thing about prostitution, you were looking to cash in. My private life is not the case here and neither is my personal site.
No one here sends traffic to my personal site and i dont ask them to.

No one was charged with prostitution nor was it ever referred to by the cops, that is not why they raided my home business.
They violated my rights and nothing more. So before you speak and make claims remember your involvement in my websites. Not only did you create my site, but you acted in my videos. So why did you ??? if you thought this to be true.
I dont agree with vanilla porn either, but i dont accuse well known webmasters with crimes of pimping and pandering. You pay for models and shoot content, then live off the income that you make selling it. I would say that it is the same thing.

[webwoman]

There is no sex involved at all ..

[Beaver Bob]

lol if i did cash4fetish it would look and work a lot better than it does now. I did not create your site. |thumb

to the point of the thread i was simply stating that I agreed with what Greenguy said.

[webwoman]

there was no prostitution charge or arrest. Why do some of you here keep implying that. I'm amazed at the ignorance of people who have no understanding of how the bdsm community helps each other with donations so that we can keep our businesses and studios open. We are always willing to help others in the fetish lifestyle or not. I live the lifestyle and no one gets that..Why???
I guess i misjudged this adult fourm. I see that you sponser all kinds of fetish and mistress sites and earn money off them ..they are exact to mine ..are you saying that they dont take donations .Yes all Mistresses have people who donate to keep her sites and dungeon open.

[GonZo]

I want to make it clear.

I was sincere in the advice I was giving you. And I hope you have a first Amendment lawyer. If they rolled up a forensic van then rest assured there is a foresic data recovery tech or examiner already acquring the hard drives of your comptuer.

Every website that youve visted at least in the last 30 days will be found.

Depending on your email program every email that youve sent or been sent will be found.

In short whatever you were actually doing there [and I dont care] and if you kept a record on your computer...it will be brought to light. And thats just on your computer.

I dont care that you may or may not have been a hooker in the eyes of the law. [I do understand the community.]

I dont care that your sites fall into that extreme genere. Even though I do agree that they bring a lot of unwanted attention to this business its your 1st Amendment right to have them.

I dont care that your use of the Epassporte was also questionable which is going to make it harder in the long run for all merchants to use one...thats between you and Epassporte.

If you were seeking advice I will amend what I told you you might want to get 2 good lawyers. One of them better be a Free Speech or 1st Amendment lawyer and the other one needs to understand this industry and technology pretty well.

You've managed to come up on the local radar and if they have confiscated all of your gear then you can rest assured that they are coming after you with a crusade like youve never seen before. And based on the points Ive made above youve got a rough road to travel.

If you came here looking for any other assistance ... I find it curious. As a former board owner Ive seen a lot of people call for help over the years but have never participated in the community that they are asking help from. Im sure with your involvement in the B&D community you can appreciate why these members find it curious to say the least.

Nonetheless you have a long and rough road to travel in the legal world if you are as pristine as you say. Your time might be better served working with lawyers and the local B&D community.

If the courts clear your name....might I also suggest reading some of these board with a little more detail. Maybe attend a few industry shows and participate in the ethics seminar.

I do care that you have an affiliate program that solicits traffic from other webmasters yet you 'shave" the donations from the aforementioned traffic.

That certainly doesnt look very well in the eyes of the webmaster community.

[GonZo]

I stand with Tommy and Aliex. I think publicity like this hurts our industry.

I agree with you as well but its still her 1st Amendment right to keep them. Theres no doubt that the extreme sites sell.

Its my guess that in the long run with the current administration they are also going to cost ----- cost to defend the right to have them.

Those site owners are the equivalent of the industry's "canary in a coalmine".

[Hammer]

Those site owners are the equivalent of the industry's "canary in a coalmine".
Good analogy, but it brings up a point. Is it bad for our industry that sites like this exist because it brings attention to all of us, or is it a good thing for those of us that don't do extreme sites, because it focuses the attention elsewhere?

I'm dying to hear the next point about Beaver Bob though because it looks like some real drama brewing there. Did he design the site or not? And if not, why is he being falsely accused in a public forum of being involved with a company that is under criminal investigation?

[Beaver Bob]

I did lend her a hand with 2 of her pages on cash4fetish. I myself did not design the site, and I had no other involvement whatsoever with the design, programming, or production of ANY of her websites other than a helping hand on 2 pages of her affiliate program.

To be honest, some of that stuff is just too far out there for me |loony|

[GonZo]

I did lend her a hand with 2 of her pages on cash4fetish. I myself did not design the site, and I had no other involvement whatsoever with the design, programming, or production of ANY of her websites other than a helping hand on 2 pages of her affiliate program.
2 pages for 10K...damn can I come work for you?

[Hammer]

So now it sounds like the company Beaver Bob works for did indeed do the work, but he himself did not do all of it, although he did apparently just slam the work in his previous post, which doesn't makes sense. I'm guessing that his company would not be happy about an employee dissing their work.

"lol if i did cash4fetish it would look and work a lot better than it does now."

[RawAlex]

Gonzo, while agree with on most of your points taken on an individual case basis, the reality is a "whole ball of wax". In this ball of wax is a girl doing extreme bondage, soliciting for clients (for acts that most straight people would feel are at least somewhat sexual in nature, hence the revealing constumes, nudity, and the like), and a webmaster program that sends traffic into the mix from porn sites.

Nothing can be taken without context, and the context says "this is a porn site where the girl solicites for clients at $300 an hour, and then requires they are donations not fees". If this was above board, she would take the $300 as a hourly rate and not play games. By playing the old hooker game "it's not a price for sex, it's a donation to show appreciation for me", she puts herself in the same game.

Her traffic comes from porn. She acts like a hooker. She operates a "sexual" business receiving clients in a residential neighborhood. When she gets caught, she doesn't run to the S&M people for support, but tries to claim "porn webmaster" and tries to get the support of our industry.

Except for a webmaster program that cuts the webmasters out of the most profitable part of the business (the donations) she has little or nothing to do with our industry.

Oh yeah, while canaries are good, enough dead canaries can really stink a place up... especially when you didn't put them there to start with.

Alex

[RawAlex]

I dont agree with vanilla porn either, but i dont accuse well known webmasters with crimes of pimping and pandering. You pay for models and shoot content, then live off the income that you make selling it. I would say that it is the same thing.

Sorry, but it is a well estalished legal fact that there is a large difference in this area. Please see all the legal cases that happened in the 70's regarding porn films (most people don't realize how many people got arrested for making relatively tame porn).

There is a difference, you know it, and you are just attmepting to hide behind a none too clever reading of the rules.

Alex

[Beaver Bob]

So now it sounds like the company Beaver Bob works for did indeed do the work, but he himself did not do all of it, although he did apparently just slam the work in his previous post, which doesn't makes sense. I'm guessing that his company would not be happy about an employee dissing their work.

"lol if i did cash4fetish it would look and work a lot better than it does now."

well its not really that cut and dry. yes, an associate of mine did some web design work for her, I had no involvement in any of it besides the 2 pages I mentioned which was to help him out. I'm not really an employee, and the guy lives downstairs from me and knows I think that site sucks and i dont even think he did that one.. lol so its no big deal. and to be honest i'm not really sure who did what where, nor do I care, nor is it realy even the point of this thread. i just know I didn't!

[Hammer]

You may want to look up the word 'employee' in the dictionary Bob, because if you were 'employed' by that company to do any of the work -- whether you received benefits and they took out your taxes and you punched in on a clock or you worked for them strictly on a freelance basis -- you were employed by them. The point is not whether or not you consider yourself an employee, the point is that you slammed their work and if I ran that company, I'd be more than a little upset by it.

[Hammer]

You pay for models and shoot content, then live off the income that you make selling it. I would say that it is the same thing.
Fortunately for us pornographers, the law doesn't see it that way.

[Beaver Bob]

I'll find out soon enough :) I dont think he'll be too upset tho.

[GonZo]

Gonzo, while agree with on most of your points taken on an individual case basis, the reality is a "whole ball of wax". In this ball of wax is a girl doing extreme bondage, soliciting for clients (for acts that most straight people would feel are at least somewhat sexual in nature, hence the revealing constumes, nudity, and the like), and a webmaster program that sends traffic into the mix from porn sites.

Nothing can be taken without context, and the context says "this is a porn site where the girl solicites for clients at $300 an hour, and then requires they are donations not fees". If this was above board, she would take the $300 as a hourly rate and not play games. By playing the old hooker game "it's not a price for sex, it's a donation to show appreciation for me", she puts herself in the same game.

Her traffic comes from porn. She acts like a hooker. She operates a "sexual" business receiving clients in a residential neighborhood. When she gets caught, she doesn't run to the S&M people for support, but tries to claim "porn webmaster" and tries to get the support of our industry.

Except for a webmaster program that cuts the webmasters out of the most profitable part of the business (the donations) she has little or nothing to do with our industry.

Oh yeah, while canaries are good, enough dead canaries can really stink a place up... especially when you didn't put them there to start with.

Alex
It doesnt matter...according to the 1st Amendment shes entitled to have that site up.

If shes pimping her ass on the side / which she says shes not/ thats an entirely different issue and Im sure that forensic van will get to the bottom of it.

It doesnt matter to me if shes hiding behind it...a ball of wax or a pile of dead birds. If the evidence concludes that shes a hooker then Im sure thats what she will be convicted of.

We have another saying in the US its "innocent until proven guilty". Right now shes just under investigation.

Anyone that knows me will tell you that I have a very vocal distaste for the scammers and thieves in this industry. Hell I just chimed in on a Zoo thread to call shaving what it really is....STEALING!

I agree with you, Tommy and Green Guy that it reflects bad on the entire industry BUT if she wasnt selling sex [like she says] then the only thing shes guilty of is bad business ethics.

Im shocked Im debating the legislation and enforcement of morality with someone else in this business.

Some of yall need to accept it like Tommy said.... we are all PORNOGRAPHERS! Your fooling yourself if you think anything else.

Yall are going to keep on and Ill come back into the B2B side of this business and it wont be pretty. hahaah

[GonZo]

I'll find out soon enough :) I dont think he'll be too upset tho.

Speaking of errors in business ethics....

[Hammer]

There's not really any such thing as legal porn because it all comes down to a particular community's stand on obscenity, but there is somewhat legal porn, absolutely illegal porn and everything in between. If you deal in 'extreme' porn, you're playing a lot closer to the illegal fence and chances are a lot better that someone from the other side can reach over and grab you.

[RawAlex]

Gonzo, it is like any undesirable part of our business. Spammers and toolbar jerks are technically a "part of our business", but like a cancerous growth, I don't have to be happy about having it and I sure would like to find a way to get rid of it.

Would wal-mart look good if it allowed people to sell crack in the entrance way to their stores because, well, they are also in the retail business?

Would the police tolerate a drive thru mcdonalds that also sold smack? Again, they are both retail businesses.

The answer is no. I was able to go to this girl's site, and within seconds figure out the entire concept. If she was doing things that were clear legal and without issue, she wouldn't ask for "donations" but would set an hourly rate like any other professional and likely even collect local sales taxes as required. She chose the words, she chose the approach, and she chose the method. I report only what I see. What I saw was someone working "off the books", taking cash donation only because if she took payments for her work, she would be charged with solicitation without delay (at least in her own mind). Crime is often about intent, and not reality.

At the end of the day, claiming to be a poor downtrodden, abuse by the man, screwed over by the cops "webmistress" isn't holding much water.

She runs an incall dungeon in a residential neighborhood. She thought that sneaking it in with the city as a "photo studio" would keep them from looking.

She runs what appears to be an incall sexual services situation in a residential neighborhood. (I use appears to represent what her neighbors would think, not what "enlightened porn webmasters might think).

She appears to solicite for prostitution or sexual situations online.

As a side note, if she is charging money to people and then put their images on the net, she is likely doing it without an enforcable model release. The basis of a model release is one of work and recompense. Since the model is both working and paying to be there, the potential is that the model releases are not enforceable because the models did not receive compensation for their appearance (and a whipping that you paid for isn't compensation).

I think the funniest part is that she appears surprised that the police showed up.

Alex

[weirdharold]

I am often amazed by how those who should be most prepared to stand up for others rights... attack from a supposed superior position... forgetting that what they are now doing was at one time considered to be completely illegal!

The way the governments are regulating all aspects of our lives... removing control of our very basic rights from us... and forming a "one world point of law"....

We all need to take advantage of each and every opportunity to speak out for the protection of the 1st Amendment and even each of the basic rights of each individual to make their own decisions to control their own lives!

[GonZo]

Sometimes I wonder if your in the same business I am Alex....

What I find even more interesting is the sudden silence.
I see the "Empress" logged in.

How about an update?
Been charged with anything yet?
I can only figure shes logged in via other means like a cellphone or shes at Kinkos alaConfucy since all her gear got confiscated.

Or were you seeking more than advice?

[GonZo]

I am often amazed by how those who should be most prepared to stand up for others rights... attack from a supposed superior position... forgetting that what they are now doing was at one time considered to be completely illegal!

The way the governments are regulating all aspects of our lives... removing control of our very basic rights from us... and forming a "one world point of law"....

We all need to take advantage of each and every opportunity to speak out for the protection of the 1st Amendment and even each of the basic rights of each individual to make their own decisions to control their own lives!

You said it much better than I did Harold!
Amen!!

[Greenguy]

|buddy| BLESS AMERICA |usa

[juggernaut]

I'm jumping you here. I dont know your story. I was not there. But from what you posted something is not correct. You stated that you were in the house when the cops came in. Then you stated that you pulled up to the house and a van was in your driveway and from what I gather they were already in your house. Better calm down, get a lawyer and get your facts on point.

[RawAlex]

1st amendment arguments in the US have reached the level of, well, stupid. It has come down to a series of bizarre absolutes (everything must be free or nothing is free).

What you guys tend to forget is that looking at this whole situation, the girl was running a commercial dungeon in a residential neighborhood. I am sorry, but freedom or not, I won't want a whiphouse next door to mine. I don't want my children exposed to it, and I don't think that an commercial (receiving clinets) adult business should operate in a residential neighborhood.

Does the 1st amendment give her the right to lower the living standards of her neighborhood? Does it give her the right potentially expose her chosen lifestyle to children around that area? To bring people into the neighborhood that might find children tasty? Think hard.

More over, I think it is sad to have her come here and cry for support. It doesn't have anything to do with her online activities (otherwise her website would likely be toasted as well). It isn't our fight.

[Hammer]

Alex, I think you want to have your cake and eat it too. You don't want a 'whip house' next door, but it's okay for you to run a porn biz from your house because your clients don't have to come to your house? You're still a deviate in the eyes of many and I guarantee you, in many parts of the country you'd be looked at with more disdain than Webwoman. Do you think people would like to have a pornographer living next door to their kids?

You seem to be completely against prostitution from what I can tell from your rant. There is absolutely no difference between a woman having sex with a guy and both of them being paid by a producer and a woman having sex with a man and being paid by the man. They are both selling their bodies, they're just being paid by different people yet according to the law, one is pandering and the other is artistic expression.

I'm with Gonzo, are you really in the porn business?

[weirdharold]

I won't want a whiphouse next door to mine. I don't want my children exposed to it, and I don't think that an commercial (receiving clinets) adult business should operate in a residential neighborhood.

So your rights out weigh all others? Now that is the point here, isn't it? If you don't think it is right then it is wrong! Seems to me you are forgetting that you have neighbors that would feel the same way if they knew you to be a pronographer. Does that make them right?

[Bill]

Alex, it's not that 'cut and dried', not here in the states at least.

Literally, every person involved in any aspect of the porn biz here in the US could face a police bustdown of the door.

We have friends who are doing actual porn production, holding cameras and shooting sex, in their houses or their friends houses, and any of those good folks good hear the pounding on the door.

Cam girls, photogs and videogs, even little page builders like me could face the gloved fist and the handcuffs.

EmpressM on her contact page does seem to be soliciting - but any one of us could also be arrested if the local cops and prosecutors get a wild hair up their butt.

[RawAlex]

harold, the difference being that I don't have a stream of paying customers coming through my front door, parking on people's lawns and coming in wearing nothing but a leather hood. What I do PERSONALLY inside my house is what I do inside my house. I don't make it the neighbor's business, nor do I care what they do at home (although one of my neighbors just got a new Mac, so I am sure they are an artist type!). Just in the same way I feel she should have the right to run an adult business, I think that her neighbor's have the right to a peaceful residential neighborhood safe for children. The rights of the many (her neighbors) outweigh in my mind the rights of the few (her) to run her commercial adult business from her house. If I was running a commercial porn studio out of my house, performers, crews, and whatnot going in and out at all hours, I would expect my neighbors to be upset. That I sit in front of a computer for 12 hours a day alone doing what I do isn't changing their lives one bit, so there you go. (and as a side note, the sales rep for the builder that sold me the house was very much aware of what I did for a living... and asked for passwords and urls to check out some hot stuff... so go figure!)

Hammer, I am not against prostitution, far from it. If a girl (or guy) wants to make a living selling themselves for sex, well, so be it. As long as they play safe, stay clean, and don't hurt anyone, who gives a rat's ass? The problem is that society as a whole (for the moment) has declared prostitution illegal (except in most Nevada counties), and that isn't something I can change. Would you honestly be happy to have a whorehouse or bondage and whip club next to your home, with your kids playing in the lawn looking over at the "johns" wanding in and out of the business next door? NIMBY. You don't mind the idea, but you wouldn't want it in your back yard.

Didn't you read closely? She registered her home business as a photo studio. She didn't mention to the city that it was adult oriented. "oops". (...and no, I don't have to obtain a permit from the city that I live in for a home business unless I receive clients at the place of business).

Common sense says that sooner or later, the neighbors would complain.

Alex

[Hammer]

Just out of curiousity Alex, but where do you think that the majority of the content on the sites that you link to on this site http://www.findpics.net/ is shot? You don't seriously believe it's all shot in a studio in a commercial district somewhere do you? So, you are willing to profit from it, as long as it isn't produced in the house next door to yours, but it's okay if it's produced in the house next door to me?

[RawAlex]

Alex, it's not that 'cut and dried', not here in the states at least.

Literally, every person involved in any aspect of the porn biz here in the US could face a police bustdown of the door.

We have friends who are doing actual porn production, holding cameras and shooting sex, in their houses or their friends houses, and any of those good folks good hear the pounding on the door.

Cam girls, photogs and videogs, even little page builders like me could face the gloved fist and the handcuffs.

EmpressM on her contact page does seem to be soliciting - but any one of us could also be arrested if the local cops and prosecutors get a wild hair up their butt.


Bill, if she was but a camgirl sitting at home making movies by herself, then yes, I would be saying "our community should stand up". Realistically, this is a mistress running a public bondage dungeon in a residential neighborhood and that is a different kettle of fish.

The straight and normal porn industry is pretty much established and existing, and has so for more than 20 years. Vivid and the like are not hiding their businesses, are they?

I just have a problem with someone who appears to have flaunted the law in so many ways coming crying to us for protection and support. Should Wal-mart help the legal defence funds of drug dealers because they are both in the retail business?

It isn't very logical to me.

Alex

[RawAlex]

Just out of curiousity Alex, but where do you think that the majority of the content on the sites that you link to on this site http://www.findpics.net/ is shot? You don't seriously believe it's all shot in a studio in a commercial district somewhere do you? So, you are willing to profit from it, as long as it isn't produced in the house next door to yours, but it's okay if it's produced in the house next door to me?

Hammer, I am under not legal obligation to confirm the locations that content is shot. It could be in fact shot in a kindergarten classroom for that matter, it isn't important, now is it? I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make a difference. All I want to know is that there are model releases for the people and the models are all of legal ages, and that no children were present or witnessed it being made. The rest is the responsiblity of the people who produce it.

Nor is that an issue here.

I don't care that she does bondage. I don't care that she runs a website. I am concerned that she is running a commercial adult business in a residential neighborhood, and I am concerned that she is soliciting for sexual acts on her website, two things that reflect badly on the industry as a whole.

I also express concern that if she is fast and loose with the laws of zoning and solicitation, might she also not be just slightly loose with the rules for 2257 and model releases? When doubt is raised in one area, the rest should be looked at too.

The police didn't come to her house without a warrant, so they surely have something to work from. Is it valid? Will it stick? Will they use it to bootstrap up some other case against her? I don't know, and neither do you. We can only go by what we have in front of us.

Alex

[RawAlex]

Oh, and if my neighbors are shooting porn, well, I don't care... as long as they don't have a flow of people going in and out the door day and night to do it.

Alex

[Hammer]

Do you seriously believe she is so busy that she has a steady flow of clients coming and going all day and night? Certianly you realize she and her clients would also be discreet and no one is walking into her house wearing a leather mask.

[RawAlex]

Hammer, think for a minute. If your neighbor had, I don't know... 3 different people per day come to their door, parking in front of your house each time, would you not start to wonder a little bit?

Would you not wonder if they showed up at all house of the day or night (many of these people are "night" people)?

I don't deny here rights to do what she does... but a little common sense and a little time with a good lawyer could likely have kept any of this from happening.

We all have opinions. That's cool.

Alex

[Bill]

It would be interesting to hear more from other fetish sponsors and members of the bdsm community about this.

Is this a relatively common practice?

I know there is a fairly large (relatively speaking) underground business in femdom prostitution - a relatively safe and hi profit part of the sex worker biz, from what I understand.

Alex, all your points are good.

I was just trying to say we all have some reason to fear the fervor and prejudices of local law enforcement. In many ways, the smaller you are, the more likely you are to be harassed.

[MeatPounder]

Oh, and if my neighbors are shooting porn, well, I don't care... as long as they don't have a flow of people going in and out the door day and night to do it.

Alex

They willing to license the content?

[webwoman]

Update...The free speech coalition has set me up with a first amendment attorney
in my area. Our appointment is on Monday at 4pm. people from the bdsm community are getting together and coming to my aid to help fight this raid. We are going to get the information we need and what the retainer will be to solve this case.
I'm and always will be upfront and helpful to all who seek help. I don't condemn people who speak their mind nor do I think your opinions are my business. You have that right.
This is about protecting all adult industry workers down the line. What you do to me will one day be you if this is not stopped now. It is because people like us who fight for the rights of all types of industry we have a chance.
If we sub divide from each other we lose the fight completely because we now are not fighting the officials who are trying to end the adult industry. We are fighting against each other just like they want us to. When this happens it allows them to continue to take steps to enforce yet another way to discredit all of us.
Yes, I built a site and yes its fetish not porn, But I also live the bdsm lifestyle and it is separate from my site. My freedom was violated because its not the norm.
I also think that if you were in the bdsm lifestyle you would understand the donation aspect and why we do that. Don't accuse me of selling sex because it is not even in the mix. My websites are more risky than my life. Because that is what the Internet craves. Do you want your private life put out for all to see. Rights are for all not just you and your adult business, Our familles would not want to live next door to a vanilla sex site either because its not what we believe. But I work in more than one type of business just like you...lifestyle is not the same as a website.Alot is acting and modeling to make money just like you.
Remember when you put my content up you thought that it was fine.
I did not come here to cry or anything like that. I came to say I will fight because I'm right. And all my records and zoning and what I do is in order ... They were hoping it was not. No arrest and no charges we made. But they looked puzzled by the proof that came from them in the first place..The town approved my business the court while in bankruptcy officially made it a priority to make me prove every aspect of my business before they issued me the right to declare my income as legitimate.
I had to document and take pictures of everything and submit it to the judge and as far as taxes every penny goes into my business account that the trustee monitors to ensure my income stays intack.I cant fool or hide anything from them. They have made me do all the paperwork necessary to stay up to date on my payments.
The town when they discovered this on Wednesday was shocked that they did not research me a lot better than they did. BECAUSE what this comes down to is the fact that they told me it was O.K.. It is all in writing. From them.
that's why the free speech coalition is willing to take my case.
I may have been raided but I will not be violated.
still dont know the real reason becase no search warrant was shown to us.
another reason why i seek help. Its our right to see one.

[RawAlex]

They willing to license the content?

No, they won't license it... it's all exclusive! |headbang| |headbang| |headbang|

[ardentgent]

Alex, I think you want to have your cake and eat it too. You don't want a 'whip house' next door, but it's okay for you to run a porn biz from your house because your clients don't have to come to your house? You're still a deviate in the eyes of many and I guarantee you, in many parts of the country you'd be looked at with more disdain than Webwoman. Do you think people would like to have a pornographer living next door to their kids?

You seem to be completely against prostitution from what I can tell from your rant. There is absolutely no difference between a woman having sex with a guy and both of them being paid by a producer and a woman having sex with a man and being paid by the man. They are both selling their bodies, they're just being paid by different people yet according to the law, one is pandering and the other is artistic expression.

I'm with Gonzo, are you really in the porn business?

Well said.

[weirdharold]

Alex, after rereading my last post to you, let me state that I did not mean for it to appear as a personal attack on you..... and am thankful you didn't respond as if it was.

I do have to agree that something smells very fishy about what little we know about this situation...

one: according to webwoman.. the investigators claimed to have come with warrant in hand, but refused to produce it upon request (which it should not have been neccessary to request it... should have been the first thing they did upon contact... hand it over) which smells pretty bad in itself.

two: the guy (that brought you to the conclusion that she has traffic flowing through her residence) walking up through the cops *money in hand* speaking out asking for his spanking. What kind of person would do this with cops all over the place? I know a lot of rather Hmmmm... how do I say crazy fu**ers, and for the life of me I don't think even the craziest would walk through cops to pay to get a spanking. So that smell a heap of rotten fish to me....

I do not trust the law enforcement community... they lie, cheat, and break laws... in the name of upholding the law..... They are sworn to up hold the law ... so to me their lying, cheating, and most of all BREAKING THE LAW makes them worse than the lowest snake in the grass.

Being a Libertarian, I basically believe a person has the right to do anything they want to do... as long as it does not interfere with the right of someone else to do the same.

I am extremely concerned about individual rights and freedoms... which are being eroded faster than water flows from a ducks back. I simply believe that if we don't take the time to speak out against the wrongs committed against others then soon we will have no choice but to walk in line all the way to slaughter.

[RawAlex]

Do I think she is being setup? Yup. Do you think that setups happen without there being enough truth to support them?

Two wrongs don't make a right (but two Wrights made an airplane). The actions of the law enforcement people doesn't make running a commercial adult business in a residential neighborhood any better. I think that some her story is missing (like I wonder how many donations get actually declared to the bankruptcy court, example)... I think that not everything in this situation is kosher, and I am sure the police / LE people are counting on it.

Alex

[Bill]

So the zoning part of this debate should presumably be dropped. It's not the issue.

Thinking about this reminded me about free porn pages advertising adult dating sites like AFF and so many others.

From what I've heard, most of these adult dating sites are basically just fronts for escorts and prostitutes. Most of the female "profiles" are fakes or escorts. I've read articles from the escort community describing how to use the adult dating site sto get paying customers.

But I see a lot of people selling the adult dating stuff.

Isn't that soliciting? Selling soliciting services, at least?

[RawAlex]

Bill, no, the zoning is still an issue - courts often issue contridictory rulings, or issue ruling that don't take into consideration other issues. What a bankrupcy court said about the validity of the business (a photo studio) can still stand in violation of zoning laws. People often forget that when you are dealing with the left hand, the right hand has no idea what you are up to.

Is running a dungeon for photoshoots legal? I think the answer is yes. Is running a photostudio in your house legal? If you have a permit, then you are good to go. Running an adult business in an residential area, well.. who knows?

Obviously the setup guy (the guy running up with cash in hand for the mistress) shows where they are going - prostituion and operating an adult business.

I also get a feeling that the "victim" here is splitting some legal hairs through all of this. Just a feeling, no proof... but I feel some shift in the story.

interesting and potentially relevant stuff:

http://www.pervscan.com/2003/08/30/is-sm-sex/

http://www.io.com/~ambrosio/law/law.html

http://gloria-brame.com/domidea/rumpoule.htm

Prostitution is usually defined as "sexual conduct for money." A number of professional dominants, male submissives that wanted to see professional dominants, and people wishing to start private dungeons and place spaces that require an admission fee have consulted me.

The laws in this area vary a great deal from state to state. For example, in most areas of California, professional dommes are not arrested for prostitution as long as there is no "sexual contact" with the client. However, in Arizona, prostitution is defined to include "Sadomasochistic abuse" which is further defined to include, "flagellation or torture by or upon a person who is nude or clad in undergarments or in revealing or bizarre costume or the condition of being fettered, bound or otherwise physically restrained on the part of one so clothed."

Penalties can vary as well. Usually prostitution is a misdemeanor. But, even still, depending on local laws, a conviction can result in a lengthy sentence.

Prostitution laws also apply to the clients as well. In most states, law enforcement not only set up "stings" on prostitutes by posing as clients, but also set up stings on the clients by posing as prostitutes.

Misdemeanor prostitution can suddenly become a pandering or "pimping" charge if others are employed in prostitution offenses. This is usually a felony in most states. Pandering charges have been applied in some cases where people have opened private "SM clubs" and charged for admittance. Probably there is no problem where people are on their own in finding partners. But where partners are provided by management, even if there is not an extra charge, charges have been brought.

So, be very careful any time money is being charged in connection with a sexually related activity. Especially when there is a profit that goes into someone's pocket, rather than covering expenses.

The best thing to do is contact an experienced criminal defense attorney in your area to learn not only the laws, but what police enforcement and prosecution policies are.

On a lighter note, in the Netherlands where prostitution is legal, the Fire Marshall announced a regulation that that customers could not be put in bondage that took longer than 30 seconds to release.

It goes on an on...

Bill, when I say soliciting, it is "soliciting for a sexual act". Newspapers will not knowingly list ads for illegal services, and often they will have rules as to what can be run and what cannot be run. It is a very fine line. Remember, escorts per se are not illegal (they sell time, not sex) but it is a very, very fine line between X and Y.

Alex

[Useless]

I guess my first question is this:
How much for a spanking?
How much more if I jerk off while being spanked?

I've been reading this thread with a certain amount of speculation and interest. I don't know why we'd care who designed her sites or care whether or not the designer gives two shits.

I don't understand why it's so wrong for a pornographer to have opinions about certain types of porn. Are we all supposed to line up behind webwoman and faithfully support her because she's a pornographer and by golly we porn people stick together? Fuck that. Those of us in the traffic business make judgements on porn everyday by listing or not listing sites or galleries that contain content that we may or may not feel comfortable with. Who amongst you is so vehemently opposed to infringing the first ammendment rights of your fellow webmasters that you list every fucking link submitted to you? Anyone?

[RawAlex]

UW, you nailed it.

Alex

[Tommy]

see this is where I think we are getting off the subject

From what webwoman said in her own words

the police never said anything about her websites, she doesn't know why shes been singled out but they did tell her this

they told me it was illegal to practice sadomasochism because it was a sex act the same as intercourse.
they told me spanking and any type of this play was prostitution.

I think they took her computers to prove she is charging for sex
appointments made in email and payments made, descriptions of what happens in the dungeon

instant message conversations
money records etc etc

if she was doing this in Nevada where prostitution is legal I would say she is in the right but that's not the case

also models or porn actors dont pay to be in porn videos

they get paid and the person they are having sex with is normally not the one laying out the money

I have to look at this and say what was her intention

do I beleive these people were paying 300 a hour for a sex act

or do i beleive these people where so depreate to be in a porn video they shelled out 300 a hour

Now I wanna ask the rest of you.
what do you think was really going on there ???

[Tommy]

Ohh btw
I doubt the cops are gonna charge you with anything

but they will be back
I think they just want you out of the neighborhood and they are gonna fuck with you untill you figure out it would be easyer to operate from somewhere else

thats why they never showed you a warrant
thats why they refused to tell you anything
thats why the guy walked up with money in hand
thats why they didnt give you any paper for the stuff they took

[furrygirl]

Alex, I think you want to have your cake and eat it too. You don't want a 'whip house' next door, but it's okay for you to run a porn biz from your house because your clients don't have to come to your house? You're still a deviate in the eyes of many and I guarantee you, in many parts of the country you'd be looked at with more disdain than Webwoman. Do you think people would like to have a pornographer living next door to their kids?

You seem to be completely against prostitution from what I can tell from your rant. There is absolutely no difference between a woman having sex with a guy and both of them being paid by a producer and a woman having sex with a man and being paid by the man. They are both selling their bodies, they're just being paid by different people yet according to the law, one is pandering and the other is artistic expression.

Wow, Hammer and I agree on something.

[furrygirl]

If we sub divide from each other we lose the fight completely because we now are not fighting the officials who are trying to end the adult industry. We are fighting against each other just like they want us to. When this happens it allows them to continue to take steps to enforce yet another way to discredit all of us.

...

Our familles would not want to live next door to a vanilla sex site either because its not what we believe. Webwoman, I'm as much "on your side" as anyone here has been, but I didn't like this post one bit. You can't call for pervert solidarity and ask that we not infight in the face of government harassment, and then cast a stone at people who run "vanilla sex sites". It doesn't help anything to turn around the, "I don't want to live next to you, you're a weirdo!" argument on others.

[Cleo]

Seems this was about prostitution and not pedaling smut so really it is not about the kind of business that this board is about.

That being said I find it amazing and a violation of of my right to do with my body as I see fit that it is ok to fuck a guy after he buys me dinner but not ok to fuck him if he gives me money to go shopping. Personally I much prefer the shopping money over something that I'm just going to shit out the next day.

[furrygirl]

One more post on this for now...

I'm not accusing anyone of being "prudes", I'm saying that it's weird what people get up in arms about and accuse of being derogative to the legal adult industry.

I seem to recollect that many posters on this thread who are knocking Webwoman were avid backers of Sleep Assault. In my opinion, sites such as Sleep Assault (or Meat Holes or Little April) do way more to discredit our industry as a whole (by virtue of being heavily promoted) than does one dominatrix. I don't believe that "extreme" or "taboo" porn should be *illegal* so long as it involves consenting adults, but I do think that *as members of the adult industry,* we should critique ourselves and our colleague in the interest of making a stronger adult industry. (This sort of nuanced reply is one that never seems to be grasped by so many people when I repeat it in different discussions. It's not a matter of wanting everything I ethically question to be illegal, it's a matter of having discussion about it *from within* the industry to consider what is best for all of us as a whole.)

That being said again, I just don't see why people who have no issue with porn sites that arguably encourages rape or pedo-lust get all riled up over the very *notion* that someone might be a prostitute.

And then, people are expressing that even though "prostitution" makes our industry look bad, they are pissed because they're not getting a cut of "donations" as affiliates. Make up your minds! You can't accuse someone of having illegal business dealings that you find to be "wrong", and then wonder where your pimp/revshare payment is.

Plus: As far as I know, being a dominatrix is not actually illegal if you're not having *sex* for money. Even with all the insinuations being thrown around in this discussion, there is no actual crime being committed in what EmpressM is doing. Believe it or not, but it's perfectly legal to straight-up charge someone $200 for being tied up and yelled at. Spanking someone is not prostitution. Flogging someone is not prostitution. Forced feminization play is not prostitution (Now, if you're not reporting that income, that's when you might get bothered by the IRS.)

Also, if people are so freaked out at the thought of promoting something that maybe possibly could be construed as having something to do with prostitution, then I hope you don't promote Adult Friend Finder of any dating sites. Where do you think the technologically hip hookers of new find their johns? [Ah, Bill beat me to this, I've been writing this reply while reading the thread.]

[fetish1]

I'm amazed at the ignorance of people who have no understanding of how the bdsm community helps each other with donations so that we can keep our businesses and studios open. We are always willing to help others in the fetish lifestyle or not. I live the lifestyle and no one gets that..Why???
I see that you sponser all kinds of fetish and mistress sites and earn money off them ..they are exact to mine ..are you saying that they dont take donations .Yes all Mistresses have people who donate to keep her sites and dungeon open.

Having been in the lifestyle for more years than I care to admit (unless of course I admit to getting involved in it at the age of 2) apparently things in CT are handled differently than they are in NC, TN, VA, Washington DC, IA, and ND, as I have NEVER dealt with a "donation" situation for scenes. A monthly cover charge for munches, and a cover charge to get into clubs yes, but donations to help someone keep their dungeon up? NO. Does that mean it's not possible that some people help each other out in a bind, of course not, but to assume that everyone in the lifestyle is a "pro" that charges/accepts donations is a falacy.


see this is where I think we are getting off the subject
From what webwoman said in her own words:
Originally Posted by webwoman -
they told me it was illegal to practice sadomasochism because it was a sex act the same as intercourse.
they told me spanking and any type of this play was prostitution.


THANK You Tommy! I thought perhaps I was seeing things as no one else has pointed that statement out. If she runs this out of her home following all guidelines and under a business license then she should have known the laws and they quoted her what is illegal - which happens to be something she charges a "donation" for...seems pretty clear.

[GonZo]

Having been in the lifestyle for more years than I care to admit (unless of course I admit to getting involved in it at the age of 2) apparently things in CT are handled differently than they are in NC, TN, VA, Washington DC, IA, and ND, as I have NEVER dealt with a "donation" situation for scenes. A monthly cover charge for munches, and a cover charge to get into clubs yes, but donations to help someone keep their dungeon up? NO. Does that mean it's not possible that some people help each other out in a bind, of course not, but to assume that everyone in the lifestyle is a "pro" that charges/accepts donations is a falacy.




THANK You Tommy! I thought perhaps I was seeing things as no one else has pointed that statement out. If she runs this out of her home following all guidelines and under a business license then she should have known the laws and they quoted her what is illegal - which happens to be something she charges a "donation" for...seems pretty clear.
And there goes the lifestyle/donation arguement.

[Hammer]

Wow, Hammer and I agree on something.
It's bound to happen from time to time. You can't always be wrong. :D

[RawAlex]

"bound to happen"... how appropriate!

Alex

[doublep]

"To bring people into the neighborhood that might find children tasty? Think hard."

I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up paedophilia - can't we just cut this waffle and take the bitch out and stone her?








Divide and conquer!

[GonZo]

[QUOTE=doublep can't we just cut this waffle and take the bitch out and stone her?[/QUOTE]

Classless.

[doublep]

Classless.

I was being sarcastic Gonzo!

[Useless]

can't we just cut this waffle and take the bitch out and stone her? |attention Not until I get my spanking!

[GonZo]

I was being sarcastic Gonzo!
I only know what I see on here since I dont know you. Sorry for jumping the gun.

Thought provoking thread on many levels nonetheless...one of the better ones Ive seen in months..


Quite a refreshing change as opposed to reading good morning greetings or cut and past of news articles.

[Hammer]

I agree, Gonzo. The thing is that usually when a thread gets interesting and people start debating both sides of the issue someone starts shouting 'stop the pissing' and the thread gets closed. I don't care for the boards where anything goes, but as long as no personal attacks are made, I don't see anything wrong with heated discussions.

One thing I've noticed is that 5 or 6 people can sit around a table at Internext and have the same exact type of discussion that we're having here, but since you can hear nuances in the voices and detect smirks and smiles when things are said, that same exact conversation is nothing more than that, a conversation. Take that same conversation and put in in print on a board and suddenly people start reading between the lines and hearing things that weren't intended the way they are interpretting them.

For example, Gonzo and I are good friends, but if anyone didn't know that and I replied to him in a post with "Oh shut up you fat fucking nobody", those people would go ballistic and fire off PMs to the mods to get me banned.

[Greenguy]

I agree, Gonzo. The thing is that usually when a thread gets interesting and people start debating both sides of the issue someone starts shouting 'stop the pissing' and the thread gets closed...
We don't close threads because of piss & the only assclowns that get banned are spammers |thumb

[doublep]

I only know what I see on here since I dont know you. Sorry for jumping the gun.

Thought provoking thread on many levels nonetheless...one of the better ones Ive seen in months..


Quite a refreshing change as opposed to reading good morning greetings or cut and past of news articles.

NP gonzo ;-) This is an interesting thread... but in my humble opinion the last thing we need is knee jerk reactionary statements... we vote in politicians to do that shite!

People like webwomen have become easy targets for the authorities, not just in the States but in the UK too - in fact over there they are debating a ban on 'violent' pornography right now, and when they say violent, what they mean is S&M... anything of the beaten path [no pun intended] for that matter.. they may have relaxed the laws on 'vanilla' but the staffing costs of the vice squad have to be justified somehow - so lets go after someone who doesn't fit in, even if they are consenting adults.

We all know deep down where the authorities should be putting the effort in - don't we?

[RawAlex]

doublep, the question of "tasty children" really doesn't come from me or anyone here, but the logic that neighbors and therefore public officials will use. Enough people out there think that anyone who is into "recreational sex" has to also be a pervert, and some perverts are pedophiles. Why take the chance?

So, if she weighs the same as a duck....

It is one of the reasons many people in the industry don't tell their famlies what they do. Mention "I do internet porn", and they will immediately have you labelled as a spammer and CP distributor. There are built in assumptions at work.

Public officials respond to the concerns of the citizens (or their own concerns and biases). We get what we get.

Alex

[Hammer]

CP and spamming may be built in assumptions with the general public, but we definitely don't need fellow webmasters enforcing them on adult webmaster boards. When you made the comments they weren't made to point out what other people 'might' think, you said them about how you personally felt. You said you did not want to live next door to a 'whip house' and then continued to bring up children and how they would be affected.

[doublep]

Alex, do excuse me, I obviously misunderstood this:

"Does the 1st amendment give her the right to lower the living standards of her neighbourhood? Does it give her the right potentially expose her chosen lifestyle to children around that area? To bring people into the neighbourhood that might find children tasty? Think hard."

I thought that was a point *you* were making in regards to the women's activities - you did ask us to think hard!

Paul.

[doublep]

Public officials respond to the concerns of the citizens (or their own concerns and biases). We get what we get.
Alex

I think what you find in this day in age is public officials whipping up distorted concerns in their citizens... hence, I took exception at the statement you made earlier...

Paul.

[Jeremy]

...

People like webwomen have become easy targets for the authorities, not just in the States but in the UK too - in fact over there they are debating a ban on 'violent' pornography right now, and when they say violent, what they mean is S&M... anything of the beaten path [no pun intended] for that matter.. they may have relaxed the laws on 'vanilla' but the staffing costs of the vice squad have to be justified somehow - so lets go after someone who doesn't fit in, even if they are consenting adults.
....


In the proposals, when they say "violent" they mean GBH and beyond:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_08_05_porn_doc.pdf

They also mean anything outside of the BBFC guidelines:

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/Customers/guidelines/Guidelines_R18.html

In reality, "hardcore" S&M films don't really fly in the UK currently anyway.

[doublep]

In the proposals, when they say "violent" they mean GBH and beyond:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_08_05_porn_doc.pdf

They also mean anything outside of the BBFC guidelines:

http://www.bbfc.co.uk/Customers/guidelines/Guidelines_R18.html

In reality, "hardcore" S&M films don't really fly in the UK currently anyway.

Cheers for the PDF :) GBH is a criminal offence in the UK anyway.

"Great Britain has a long history of erotic expression — from the Skin Two Rubber Ball (one of the world's largest S&M/fetish gatherings) to London's notoriously decadent Hellfire Club of the 18th century to the dominatrix-like attire that actress Diana Rigg often favored when she portrayed sexy spy Emma Peel on "The Avengers" — and the country's demand for erotica may be at an all-time high."

S&M-oriented porn, Woodward explained, is fighting an uphill battle in Britain despite the demand for it. "Most kinkier firms do not try to sell in the United Kingdom," Woodward said. "They simply sell via websites, and U.K. citizens will order illegally if they wish to. Customs may steal the DVDs as they come into the country — hence the popularity of downloading videos from web sites rather than getting them by mail."

Tim Woodward - Skin Two Magazine Nov 4 2005

I think you will find there is a quite a demand for S&M porn in the UK.

Paul.

[Jeremy]

S&M-oriented porn, Woodward explained, is fighting an uphill battle in Britain despite the demand for it. "Most kinkier firms do not try to sell in the United Kingdom," Woodward said. "They simply sell via websites, and U.K. citizens will order illegally if they wish to. Customs may steal the DVDs as they come into the country — hence the popularity of downloading videos from web sites rather than getting them by mail."

Tim Woodward - Skin Two Magazine Nov 4 2005

I think you will find there is a quite a demand for S&M porn in the UK.


Absolutely Paul. There's a reason that the French (allegedly) call spanking "la vice anglaise". It's all supposed to be to do with public schools and buggery :-)

As the guy says, the demand is here, but you do run an big risk of an OPA prosecution if you publish hard S&M from the UK, so most don't.

To be honest though, when I read the kind of thing they envisaged outlawing possession of, I wasn't too sure where it fitted in with S&M in the first place.

[Wazza]

I think you will find there is a quite a demand for S&M porn in the UK.

Paul.
Well the Tories aren't in power and the paparazzi are everywhere, so what did you expect? ;)

[RawAlex]

Alex, do excuse me, I obviously misunderstood this:

"Does the 1st amendment give her the right to lower the living standards of her neighbourhood? Does it give her the right potentially expose her chosen lifestyle to children around that area? To bring people into the neighbourhood that might find children tasty? Think hard."

I thought that was a point *you* were making in regards to the women's activities - you did ask us to think hard!

Paul.

Paul, you have to always look at things from the standpoint of "how will it get played in the media:. Without a doubt, the issue of protecting children (which is what the DoJ and Bush claim they are trying to do with 2257) will come up the deal.

THe other thing to remember is that rights cannot be construed in a vacuum. The right to have a dungeon and to run a commercial "whipping for hire" busijness has to be balanced against the rights of the neighbors to lead normal lives and such. It's a give and take, no doubt.

I really do have a feeling that if this is a true occurance, then the local officials have set up a nice harrassment deal to "get those perverts out of town".

|violin|

Alex

[webwoman]

I'm in a business district. Not residential i have 4 businesses ajacent to my home and i'm smack in the middle. A car dealership is in my back yard 3 stores a strip mall.
up the street is a porn shop and a head shop further down .i also have a rug company
and dunkin donuts right here in my back yard ..what the hell are you saying ..half of my dam house was zoned a business. for that matter the whole thing could be if i wanted it to ...but because i live in it its half and half...get the facts not hear say please.

[doublep]

Hi Jeremy :) As Woodward say's, there is a lot of stigma against the S&M community in the UK, hence publishers move their operations outside of the UK legal jurisdiction and opt for delivering their products electronically - this suits them and their consumers, who find it safer to download, keeping the prying eyes of customs at bay. This brings me back to my original point, this makes it harder for the authorities to catch publishers and consumers at home - so they go after soft targets just like webwomen. As I said, these guys have to justify their wages somehow. Kicking down doors mob handed offers that.

Alex - on the issue of location, webwomen has said that she is in a business zone. On the issue of the media and how it would be played out, you are preaching to the choir - I know exactly how they play it out - what I don't expect to see is an adult webmaster using some of their lame reactionary scare mongering tactics on an adult board - it sure came across that way.

Wazza - the population of the UK are getting spanked in lots of ways mate ;-)

[RawAlex]

doublep, sorry, this is the first she has said about being in a buisness zone. The rest of the time she talks about "in her house" and special permits and whatnot. Until her post just now. honestly, I assumed it was the basement of her house. Nothing else to work from.

My comments aren't scare mongering in the slightest. It is just putting into play the reality of what people face. Most of us don't get hassled because we don't run commercially visible businesses, and most of us don't deal directly in providing physical services of (potentially) sexual nature to end clients. I have never had a surfer in my office (except possibly some of my friends, but I don't ask), and they certainly are not getting any physical services for money here.

Sex related activites + visitors + cash = prostitution in most "straight" people's minds. Most straight people also consider (incorrectly, from my understanding) that S&M / BDSM / domination is a sexual act. Therefore, they see prostitution as the end result. Getting someone to show up with cash in hand asking for a session during the raid is a nice classic touch.

Webwoman, I would "get the facts" except that you have been very, very, very soft on them. Let me start at the top:

"my home was raided by the local and state police"
"The town that i live in approved my home based internet adult business along with a studio that i shoot content and video for my site"
"imagine having to park your car in the front of a house thats being raided with 30 police cars a hugh forensic van parked in my driveway"
"When they did not find what they were looking for they decided to take my 4 computers cameras all my business files and both rooms of furniture that we use for our shoots"

I am using your words as presented.

What I am starting to see here is a story that is changing and morphing, and starting to make me think that we truly don't have anything like the whole story here.

Alex

[RawAlex]

Let me add this into the discussion... information taken from a public record of the registration of the domain(s) in question:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=5+montano+road,+enfield,ct&spn=0.006839,0.016053&t=k&iwloc=A&hl=en

Looks to me like a residential street, next to a commercial street. Yup, car dealer in the back yard, but the neighbor to the side has a nice swimming pool in the back yard.

The point for me is that I am not wrong. This is a residential street, one of the two ways into a nice little subdivision. Yes, one side is commercial... but the other side isn't.

I should also point out that the domain for this "business" is less than 6 months old. The business is what? Well, here goes:

"We have two areas that I conduct my sessions in my fully equipped Dungeon or my medical fetish room. Both are private.

I am available for sessions Monday thru Friday 11am to 11pm Sat –Sun Noon to 8pm
Weekend sessions must be booked by Friday.
Remember to book early, this ensures that you get the desired time you want.

Tribute for my session is $300
Half day -$500
Full day -$700
Overnight -$1000
Please leave a message with contact information if you want me to call you back.
Contact me at XXXXXXX email me at XXXXXXXXXXX"

There is much more to this story than meets the eye.

Alex

[DJilla]

[QUOTE=Halfdeck]I've met cops who have no respect for the law and they make me sick. QUOTE]

To be fair and I can understand where a lot of people would attack the corrupt or out of control cop... and I agree they are dangerous.. I've known more than a few and when they're your'e friends they're the greatest people in the world to hang out with and know.... and you know what? They'll still go out that night and save a family from the drunken boyfriend with a gun, or recover a couple stolen cars, or return an Alzheimer’s patient to a family.

Anyways, what I'm about to say may piss people off but I think its the truth!

To: Web Woman and everyone like her!

You have my utmost sympathies and I truly have an idea of what you are going through. Here's the rub and take my words as gospel... first of all stupid |dizzy| realize everything you post here is and will be evidence. Whatever you declare here you will have to defend there.
So shut the fuck up and get a lawyer immediately.

Additionally, you have just gone through a scary and difficult time. You should know that it has just begun. It will get much worse from here on out and will last a minimum of two years of fucked financials, major inconvenence, threat to your freedom, and maybe even an upcoming incarceration and payment of a bond that depending on your state maybe many tens of thousans of dollars.

Unless you have 50,000+ to invest you will end up loosing on some aspect of this matter. So don't be more stupid and think a jury is an option. Close this matter as expeditiously as possible take your lump and move on .. or out.

A note to all naive people running porn sites:

As much as you're pleased with yourself and popular at parties... you should remember that to most others you are a smut peddler slightly above lizard on the scale of evolution and they want to stamp you out. You are lucky to even be in this business.... a decade ago someone would be throwing combustible materials in your winows or meeting you in an alley. Prosecution has always been a sister to pornography. If you are not prepared for the prospect don't cry later |violin|
If you had done your due diligence when starting this business and done a simple internet search of news articles on the subject you would have found that this kind of prosecution is fairly common in different locations over the years in amost identical circumstances as yours.

One lesson that your exprience illustrates is if you are on the web don't operate locally. If you operate locally stay the hell off the web.


Another is: have plenty of cash offsite and a backup of your webspace in multiple locations.

Another is: have lunch with a lawyer at least once every three months. If you're not playing tennis with him/her you've got the wrong lawyer. |pokefun| Don't have a lawyer? Next....

The porn biz is a war zone. People and orgnizations are trying to demolish you, ruin you, ridcule you, hurt you, put you in jail. They go to bed thinking about the subject and they wake up thnking about the prospects. They are obsessed. They have power. They have guns, and cars, and radios, and snoops, and snitches, and subpoenas, and more guns.

It is also a business ripe with fraud and criminal enterprise and an easy political target. There's a lot of stuff swirling around this. Many, many, WM's should really reconsider.

Phew... I feel so much better already with that off my chest!

[DJilla]

Oh, yeah if the State Police was involved too.. you are really screwed because that means the State Attorney General's Office had to sign off on the effort. Settle it fast and shut up! What kind of moron in a criminal prosecution goes on a public board and bitches. You are STUPID.

[Jim]

I know someone around here that is basically doing the same thing. I called them yesterday to kind of warn them and they told me that they were making about $5k/week from the "donations". I told them to put about half of that away for their legal fund :) The people I know are really doing worse than spanking and bondage but, I felt like I was just talking to myself when I warned them what could happen. To top it off, their donation website is on tripod.

[selena]

I really need to put in my ball gag, because there is oh so much I would say if I don't. :D

[Beaver Bob]

To top it off, their donation website is on tripod.

you'd think with $5,000 a week in donations you could afford some decent hosting |jackinthe

[Jim]

you'd think with $5,000 a week in donations you could afford some decent hosting |jackinthe
When they started, they had nothing so went with tripod. Now that they are doing well, they have links on all the escort sites and they don't get that you can just redirect the traffic.

[domweb]

Interesting note I didn't see anyone else pick up on. The cops said it was illegal to practice Sadomasochism.

So therefore, when I give my fiancee a caning because she asked for it, I am commiting a crime. When I tie her to the bed and blindfold her before fucking, I am commiting a crime.

Fuck free speech. You are talking about the freedom to smack someones ass who WANTS you too.

There is all this discussion about whether or not she is a prostitute in a residential zone and nothing about the fact that she isn't allowed, under law, to practice BDSM.

I know it's hard for someone not it the lifestyle to understand this, but there are a lot of people into the BDSM lifestyle who NEVER HAVE SEX. I had a slave for over six months and never had sex with her because she didn't do sex, only BDSM. My flogging and caning technique improved greatly, but no fuckee suckee.

I have met people who hire Dominants and HAVE NO SEXUAL CONTACT with them. I know a few pro Dommes and they have lots of no sex clients.

So don't point the finger and scream, "WHORE" because someone takes donations. I have given donations at the door to get into fetish parties in the past and never had sex with anyone at the party. Did the phrase, "innocent until proven guilty" go out with civil rights after 9/11?

I am, however, fascinated how far some people will go to justify their arguments. In all my years I have never heard anyone introduce ZONING LAWS as a trump to free speech or free expression.

As for the argument that "I don't want to be exposed to that and I don't want my kids exposed to it", makes me laugh my ass off. Anyone in the lifestyle goes OUT OF THEIR WAY to avoid exposing anyone to their play. And it's exactly because of the ignorance so blatantley expressed earlier.

Besides, if you are reading this post, YOU ARE IN THE PORN BUSINESS.

Webmaster, hooker, camgirl, whatever. Over ninety percent of porn is shot WITH HOOKERS as the performers.

Maybe you are just mad because she might be cutting in on your online sales by going direct to the customer instead of being pimped by you?

Porn Webmaster = Pimp

Accept it.

Ignorance is easy. Learning is hard.

[Tommy]

I really need to put in my ball gag, because there is oh so much I would say if I don't. :D

I would be interested in hearing your side of it

your supposed to participate in board discussions or are you to busy to be bothered now that you got your new cushy job


And it's exactly because of the ignorance so blatantley expressed earlier.

Besides, if you are reading this post, YOU ARE IN THE PORN BUSINESS.

Webmaster, hooker, camgirl, whatever. Over ninety percent of porn is shot WITH HOOKERS as the performers.

Maybe you are just mad because she might be cutting in on your online sales by going direct to the customer instead of being pimped by you?

Porn Webmaster = Pimp

Accept it.



don't be so quick to be lumping us in with hookers and on top of that, hookers that practice their trade in areas that aren't properly zoned for it

[RawAlex]

domweb, the issue isn't "competition", it is the bullshit of being nailed for "real world stuff" and then coming to the online world crying. The website has been around 6 months, and is just about entirely a sales pitch for services.

That's not the business I am in.

Alex

[Tommy]

I have given donations at the door to get into fetish parties in the past and never had sex with anyone at the party.

this is like arguing with republicans over the war

when you gave a donation at those party's the money went to beer, wine, liquor, pizza and wings

and when donations are taken at bdsm party's there is always a no play rule,
which means no sex

asking for a donation of 300 a hour for spankings is a little different

[Useless]

Interesting note I didn't see anyone else pick up on. The cops said it was illegal to practice Sadomasochism.I don't think that one can say that sadomasochism is wholey illegal. It doesn't make sense, like much of what she said, so I believe many of us filtered it out.
I have given donations at the door to get into fetish parties in the past and never had sex with anyone at the party.The wife and I have paid entrance fees to get into a club and did have sex with others, but not the owners (creepy old couple) so I doubt that it could be considered prostition since none of us were paid. In the Empress' situation, I'm not sure if she stated what services she was performing for the "donations" so I couldn't say if she was prostituting herself. The club that I mentioned was in a residential neighborhood. Scummy, but residential none-the-less. Would I want it next to me? No. Does that make me hypocritical? Yes, but that's just how I roll. ;) From the outside, it didn't look any different from any other house on that block, but I wouldn't want to deal with the other things that sometimes follow explicit adult behavior.

Did the phrase, "innocent until proven guilty" go out with civil rights after 9/11?I'm penalizing your argument 5 points for that statement because you're grasping at straws. Bringing 9/11 into this discussion is almost as silly as telling the U.N. that Iraq blew up the towers.
I am, however, fascinated how far some people will go to justify their arguments. In all my years I have never heard anyone introduce ZONING LAWS as a trump to free speech or free expression.A lot of laws trump free expression. Zoning laws managed to get Cindy Sheehan arrested while attempting to deliver petitions to the White House the other day.
As for the argument that "I don't want to be exposed to that and I don't want my kids exposed to it", makes me laugh my ass off. Anyone in the lifestyle goes OUT OF THEIR WAY to avoid exposing anyone to their play. And it's exactly because of the ignorance so blatantley expressed earlier.I don't personally fear my kids being exposed - for the very reason you mentioned - discretion. But, shit happens and shit brings trouble to a community. It only takes one pissed off or jealous person creating waves and suddenly you have a lot of explaining to do.
Webmaster, hooker, camgirl, whatever. Over ninety percent of porn is shot WITH HOOKERS as the performers.That's simply not true.
Maybe you are just mad because she might be cutting in on your online sales by going direct to the customer instead of being pimped by you?Makes no sense what so ever.

Porn Webmaster = Pimp

Accept it.
Not by any realistic definition. Pimps sell pussy. We sell pics of pussy.

I understand how you've become offended by this thread, I truly do. But I don't think anyone is attacking the S&M community. I can't imagine why anyone would. Sure, we've been stating that the person in question was acting pretty damned foolishly by advertising her services online, but that was pretty nuts. You and I, though from different sexual lifestyles, understand the need for discretion. She fucked up. She wasn't being discreet enough. If she had been discreet, this thread wouldn't be here right now.

[docholly]

very interesting thread...not necessarily the post that started it.. but then ensuing debate.

I found this extremely amusing:

Webmaster, hooker, camgirl, whatever. Over ninety percent of porn is shot WITH HOOKERS as the performers.

Can you tell me where? Because my step-daughter is an "escort" which is an upscale term for hooker and can always use the extra exposure...


|boobies|

*holly is a camwhore and proud of it*

[RawAlex]

UW: most swing establishments have trouble with various "bawdy house" laws. Many try to get around it by having parties at "private houses" and accept a fixed donation, rather than charging admission. Most also do it by having no commercial activity on premise, so no liquor sales or anything like that. While in theory sex should be open and free, once you start to charge for access to actual sex, then you are running close to or slightly over the line.

Most "public events" in the BDSM community that I am aware of impose a very strict no sex policy, and even some have agressive "no naughty bits" rules as well, making sure that none of those parts get out where people can see. (I shot some live performance stuff at a club in Montreal, very... kinky).

When I see someone playing the "donation" game, I know that they are either (a) avoiding tax, or (b) trying to be cute and avoid getting arresting for being a hooker. In the case at hand, it could in fact be both (or neither).

Alex

[Clare]

I was busted for doing domme/sub sessions out of my apartment a few years ago. After that I completely got out of doing sessions as i never wanted to go thru plain clothes cops storming into my place and terrifying me again. It was my first offense and I got off with a low level misdemeanor. What it came down to was although there was no actual exchange of sex I was not zoned/liscensed for nudity for $.
I suspect Empress M's neighbors may have caught on to what she was doing due to simple traffic. God knows the last thing any of my clients would ever have wanted to do was bother a kid or draw attention to themselves in any way, but doing this in a residense catches up to a lot of people. The fact that no arrest was made seems to me that they really can't prove any kind of sex or even nudity for money or that they were trying to get her on obscenity with her sites but then wouldn't it have to have been federal cops. Maybe the whole thing is just to run he rout of town, and use her materials to find out if she is connceted to any kind of larger sex ring. Or maybe just a local hard on for incall hookers. Anyway , I don't know if she feels confident enough to post on this board anymore but I would liek to hear how things come out. Of course get a lawyer, FSC can reccommend great ones and after her experience I am sure she'll reconsider working independently ever again. From what i see on her sites she has taken the donation info down, probably a good move.

[furrygirl]

There is all this discussion about whether or not she is a prostitute in a residential zone and nothing about the fact that she isn't allowed, under law, to practice BDSM.

Maybe you are just mad because she might be cutting in on your online sales by going direct to the customer instead of being pimped by you?Actually, I tried both of those arguments earlier, but people don't really like reading my posts. :D

[Tubey]

Hmmm, does the term session mean sex or therapy or what? and is there a description of services? asking for a tribute or donation does not break any law IE thos involved with Katrina and more, but if there is a description of services then there is a problem.
As far as other things I would check the local laws...there are alot of laws still in the books that have been forgotten or just not enforced but I would imagine that if some prosecuter needed it, it would come out quick. We all have heard of stupid laws still in the books but not enforced.....right?
But get a lawyer figure it out and let us know how it turns out.........

[koalat]

Granted I'm pretty new at this whole adult webmaster thing, but in my overall experience I've never seen people in trouble with law enforcement officials who weren't doing anything wrong.

Cops usually have better things to do than give trouble to tax paying, law abiding citizens who are minding their business.

I guess donations for services like that wouldn't exactly be reported on a tax return though. Tax reasons are probably one of the biggest areas that would attract the attention of the authorities...

[walrus]

Granted I'm pretty new at this whole adult webmaster thing, but in my overall experience I've never seen people in trouble with law enforcement officials who weren't doing anything wrong.

Cops usually have better things to do than give trouble to tax paying, law abiding citizens who are minding their business.

I guess donations for services like that wouldn't exactly be reported on a tax return though. Tax reasons are probably one of the biggest areas that would attract the attention of the authorities...
Wish I could say the same thing! Even though I have never gotten more than a speeding ticket or two, let alone be arrested for any type of illegal activity, I have had my apartment searched at least six times in the last 5 years and my car / bike searched more time than I can remember.

Why?! Probably because I do ride a bike, have long hair and look like your prototypical biker. Mind you I fly no colors or belong to any affiliations (except porn).

Quite simply, I'm just a big ugly fucker, with long hair and a beard, who rides a bike but that's enough to warrant police attention even when I'm sitting at home in my skivvies posting porn on my blogs.

[domweb]

I understand how you've become offended by this thread, I truly do.
Actually, UW...I am not offended. Realy. More like very amused.

I meant no previous insults to hookers, by the way! I like hookers! I like escorts! I have never used them, but I think they are darn nifty things to have around.

I'll respond to the flood my comment unleashed later when I have had more sleep.

But, I am not offended.

I'm penalizing your argument 5 points for that statement because you're grasping at straws. Bringing 9/11 into this discussion is almost as silly as telling the U.N. that Iraq blew up the towers.Aw...COME ON! Someone brought up pedophilia! I get to make a reference to 9/11! Next we'll bring up Nazi's!

[robwebster]

Thanks you to those of you that have supported me on this board.

After meeting with are attorney today, we have realized the seriousness of what is happening in the adult industry. Not being informed by someone who knows the law is a mistake for everyone. No one knows the extent of the new laws that exist. This is why so many different opinions exist in this thread. If there were one law that covered everything in the adult industry we would all have the exact same answer.
Today was an eye opening experience, which will help me in the future of my business. I would suggest to those of you who want to protect yourself and your businesses, to become 100% 2257 compliant, first Get a First amendment attorney, a civil rights attorney, an entertainment attorney, and possibly good criminal attorney. Together they can help you make your business as secure as possible and cover all the aspects. And also look at all risks that that goes along with an adult based company, Get real facts not second hand facts like opinions.
After what I learned today I think you all should take a hard look at your own sites and also who’s on your sites. Check all your paper work on 2257. Check you’re zoning even if you just sit behind your pc. Check your Content it is very important. Make sure if you run a tgp site, hosting company, link lists. Adult dating sites, review sites, modeling sites,
Or if you are just a sole proprietor of your websites PLEASE CHECK YOUR CONTENT. Ask your lawyer to review the content before you post it on your site.
Remember that it might not be you they want, but someone else that they are trying to gather information about.
Sometimes they have to find out what your involvement is with the other person to make their case stick. Thank god for good lawyers that can prove that your involvement was only through purchasing a product or content from someone who may have something else going on. The question of my inventory of items that were taken .I will be getting them back and now can move on with a fully compliant site. This is a very expensive business to maintain. I can tell you one thing it was not prostitution or my content, but while they were here they decided to take items that could be considered contraband It stands to reason that they would have to take it all because it was unusual.
Again thank you all for the info and help.
rob and webwoman

[furrygirl]

Granted I'm pretty new at this whole adult webmaster thing, but in my overall experience I've never seen people in trouble with law enforcement officials who weren't doing anything wrong.Stick around a few months. Or read up on the history of the smut business in America. |dizzy|

[RawAlex]

Furrygirl, let me say this: If you stick with "boy meets girl, boy fucks girl" porn, with 2257 documentation, then all the BS that the government throws is BS. There are a few counties where that would still be an issue, but I don't mail or send physical media to these places, so there is very little chance of an issue.

However, if you, say, wrap a camera in plastic and pee on it and sell the tape, you might want to get a lawyers advice before you send that to many, many states and counties in the US. In fact, your local community standards might not even support that. Can you buy watersports videos at your local sex shop?

Could the images of you flashing in a public park be an issue? Did you get a location release?

Can you buy menstruation videos at your local store?

If you read the history of the smut business is America, you will see that the people taking the brunt of the government's agression are the people living on the edge, taking chances, and often in fact being ahead of the obscenity curve. They can nail you for all sorts of strange and normally unimportant laws, like zoning, public health, location permits, tax rules, and so on. Please consider the recent case of Goalie Entertainment, where charge after charge was piled on until a plea agreement (that involved closing many stores) was reached.

I appreciate your efforts, if only because the government sure ain't going to look at me for obscenity. You are one of the fastest cars on the highway, don't be surprised if you get a speeding ticket.

Alex

[Useless]

You are one of the fastest cars on the highway, don't be surprised if you get a speeding ticket.Damn, I love a good metaphor. :D

So rob, do you know the charges yet, or the charges they originally intending on bringing down on you? You said a lot about 2257, but then said your content wasn't an issue. Inquiring minds want to know. The fact that police would raid a pornographer's home doesn't shock me at all. It's the failure to inform you of their intent that I find disturbing. I'm just wondering if they did indeed have the legal documents necesary to perform the search.

[SirMoby]

I'm just wondering if they did indeed have the legal documents necesary to perform the search.
You'll have to check with a lawyer but I don't think it matters if they have the docs if they failed to present them to you.

[webwoman]

Alex,

I see that you have a link site with the content on it that could be questionable.. Please words of advice…. check it. …You may have overlooked them when you put up your site. As far as the comments that you made about me, my sites, and my life has not changed my opinion about you or those like you. Your posts indicate not how you feel about me but how you view the world. I’m not your first crusade and won’t be your last.
It might be a good idea to read all your post not just in this thread but in all the ones you ever written. Here and anywhere else that you post. .understand.. That it’s not my intention to put you down or to make comments about you. But to only help you because my life has disturbed you at a level that’s not normal. Before I became a webmaster my job was to care for patients who had serious issues. You have made it your job to take on others problems which does not allow you time for your own.. That’s a hard life.
Good luck Alex I mean no harm.

[Useless]

Alex,

Your posts indicate not how you feel about me but how you view the world. I’m not your first crusade and won’t be your last.
It might be a good idea to read all your post not just in this thread but in all the ones you ever written. Here and anywhere else that you post.You need to go back through this thread and soak in how many others said things like "I agree with you Alex" or "All your points are good Alex". The man has been giving you sound advice from the beginning of this thread you have chosen to fight instead of acknowledge it for what it is. YOU are the one who was raided and YOU are the one who seems to be all but oblivious as to why your home was raided. Others have chosen to misinterpret his words and that's what you are reading. He didn't call you a whore. He doesn't think that you are an evil person for enjoying your kink. He pretty much just said that you fucked up and it's not a huge surprise that you got snagged. The man is not a prude.

As to the content that you feel is questionable ON his link list, could you be more specific? You are talking about the single most legally anal webmaster I've met. (Sorry Alex :D )

[RawAlex]

Me anal? Heh-heh... I just enjoy reading legal texts and enjoy extracting the potential meanings in them. I operate my business in compliance with the laws of Canada (where I live and where my material is published from for terms of USC 18 section 2257, even if the servers are located in the US). I use entirely licensed content.

I do not list to sites that have material that I know is illegal. I use the "video store" standard to help me in this regard, as well as the reasoned and published judgements of the Canadian courts regarding adult materials. Did you know, example, that not 20 years ago most men's magazines came to Canada with black dots covering actual penetration? Did you know that our "premium" movie channels show hardcore porn up to but not including male cumshots - but will show penetration, oral, and such, and will linger on those shots?

webwoman, you got raided. You didn't know why you got raided (and you appear to be loath to tell us why, now that apparently you know), but in looking at the public face of your business, I was able to determine certain things that would certainly raise eyebrows in most communities. You didn't know why you got raided, and I put forward sound potential reasons for the police action. I also showed where the comments you made and your assertions slipped and slid around and were not complete in disclosure. Those things make it hard for anyone to follow along.

Bringing it to the board, trust me, you will get feedback. We are on page 6. That should tell you that people have an opinion on the subject of both the police action and what (and how) you make a living.

You life doesn't disturb me in the least. Would it surprise you to find out that I know where many of the dungeons are in Montreal? That I know where and what night the local fetish clubs hold their "kink nights?" - or that I am on a first name basis with one of the best makers of PVC and other fetish clothing in Montreal? While I don't participate, it doesn't mean I look down my nose at them, far from it. I appreciate their ability to openly enjoy their passions in life, no matter how far they are from the mainstream. That is never an issue.

The issues that do exist (and they are all aware of it) is when you move from amateur to professional, you take a risk of running afoul of sex laws because for legal purposes, sex and BDSM are often linked. They know and understand that to pursue their chosen lifestyle on a paying basis is to run hard and close to those acceptable limits. They, as a result, work carefully and not in the public eye. The dungeons in Montreal are for the most part are in commercial lofts and similar non-residential areas to avoid the types of problems that can occur when you mix the lifestyle and the "straight world".

Based on that google map, it would appear that you are very much on the border, and that you have chosen to live you life and lifestyle in a very public way. In doing so, you do leave yourself open for the shots that come as a result of being such a wide open target.

Offering opinions and help on this board is a part of my business life, and has rewarded me with contacts within the community that help me to build my business. Think of it as "community service". I know, it is an unusual thing, actually doing something without getting a donation, but it happens. Plus these legal issues do give me a chance to expand my horizons and learn about subjects I might not otherwise look at. The bonus of learning something new is always worth the effort. I could teach you how that works, but I would likely have to charge more than $300 an hour. :)

Alex

[Chop Smith]

But if she stays all night, you will give her a discount?

[Linkster]

I have a question based on what I have read here - there has been a lot of stuff thrown around but two facts dont seem to match up here - the original poster stated that a raid occured by local and state authorities - yet since the original post there has been a lot of 2257 "banter" thrown out here. As far as I was aware, only federal authorities can inspect or take action on federal law - although they may be assisted by local authorities in their presence, but there has been no mention of a DOJ inspector or a FBI representative??? Or was this just embellishment added for the fear factor????

[GonZo]

I have a question based on what I have read here - there has been a lot of stuff thrown around but two facts dont seem to match up here - the original poster stated that a raid occured by local and state authorities - yet since the original post there has been a lot of 2257 "banter" thrown out here. As far as I was aware, only federal authorities can inspect or take action on federal law - although they may be assisted by local authorities in their presence, but there has been no mention of a DOJ inspector or a FBI representative??? Or was this just embellishment added for the fear factor????

I think the bullshit whistle sounded yet again.

[selena]

I would be interested in hearing your side of it

your supposed to participate in board discussions or are you to busy to be bothered now that you got your new cushy job


You got that right. I am too cozy in my lap of luxury. :D

Seriously, I see points to both sides of things, really.

It just seemed to me that there was a very anti-BDSM theme to some of the posts. It could be that I read more into it than what was there.

[Hammer]

The 2257 talk is all moot because the DOJ cannot conduct inspections or arrest anyone for 2257 related issues right now. If 2257 was brought up at any point as being the reason or one of the reasons for the raid, then you need to contact the FSC immediately.

[RawAlex]

I think there is a possiblity of not asking about 2257 records by name, but the typical police "bet you are using underage models". The only reference by webwoman is "i have all my legal paper work as far as taxes 2257 and zoning ect." (I searched the thread for 2257)

No matter WHO knocks at the door, possession of child pornography is always an issue. Why technically only the DoJ can ask for 2257 records, regular and local police could in theory charge you with possessing child porn, and your proof that it is not child porn is your 2257 records. They don't have to ask to see the records, they just can put in you a place where you have to show them to prove the point.

NOTE! This doesn't appear to have anything to do with this thread / raid - just an observation.

Alex

[Linkster]

Alex - I was actually asking the question because it was brought up by robwebster who I guess is involved with this - and didnt know what the significance of the two paragraphs about it was??? I also noted that the theme of linklists and theyre containing "content" keeps getting brought up - again I believe in a "fear factor- stir the pot" type of way - since we all know that linking to other sites is not covered by the current 2257 (the one thats been around for 10 years) and I just was asking the question as I dont understand why its being interjected into a discussion about prostitution and purient sex laws???

I believe that most states - and Im sure their state does also - define BDSM as a prohibited sexual act - so it would be up to how it was being disseminated as to whether a charge could stick or not - but then a webmaster board would not be the best place for legal advice anyway :)

[Chop Smith]

The 2257 talk is all moot because the DOJ cannot conduct inspections or arrest anyone for 2257 related issues right now. If 2257 was brought up at any point as being the reason or one of the reasons for the raid, then you need to contact the FSC immediately.

You think? This board is full of post from several months ago where posters were saying that you would only be covered by the injunction if you were a member of the FSC.

Is the fucking membership drive closed now?

[GonZo]

This thread is classic.
Thanks Green Guy and Jim for not closing it down!

[furrygirl]

Oh please, Alex, as though I need some TGP owner trying to tell me about RISK.

What on earth do you know about RISK?

A TGP owner is perhaps the most removed element in the entire adult industry and has nearly no vested interest in industry issues. Half the sites online could have their owners sent to prison for transmitting images to conservative areas where sodomy is illegal, and you'd just switch sponsor programs. You just link to things, you have no actual investment in any part of the process of creating porn. You're not a model, who could be stalked or killed by a crazy fan; you're not a photographer, who could be attacked by a jealous boyfriend or have the cops come over and inspect his home because someone told someone that he also has children, even though they've never been exposed to anything adult; you're not a site owner, you don't have to worry about being prosecuted for the content you feature or worry about charge backs and script kiddies fucking with your site.

Until you have even the tiniest grasp of what it means to take *risks* as a part of the adult industry, please, stick to the things you do know something about.

As a model and performer, photographer, webmaster, business-owner, and adult novelty retailer, MY LIFE IS RISK. I live with that every single day, and I am fully aware of the implications of everything I do. I have devoted more than three years of my life to making porn that is often "risky".

However, if you, say, wrap a camera in plastic and pee on it and sell the tape, you might want to get a lawyers advice before you send that to many, many states and counties in the US. In fact, your local community standards might not even support that. Can you buy watersports videos at your local sex shop?Where do you get that I send people watersports tapes in the mail? I have pee videos and pictures on my site, and offered one to Emmanuelle. It's not some secret dirty thing, but thanks for expressing enough interest in me to read all of my posts and thoroughly inspect my free tour.

And yes, I can buy or rent piss videos here in Seattle, we are a city of perverts and queers. We even have an amateur porn film festival and a ton of adult-oriented clubs and events.

Could the images of you flashing in a public park be an issue? Did you get a location release?As someone else brought up on this thread, perhaps even in response to you, you are in no place to bitch at anyone about things like location releases if you haven't seen documentation that all the porn on your TGP was shot in places where the property owner signed a contract to allow adult material to be shot there. You're grasping at straws, you might as well have found the photos in my members area where I'm standing in the middle of an empty road and accuse me of jaywalking.

Can you buy menstruation videos at your local store?No, but I'd like to change that. If I ever make a DVD for EroticRed.com, I'll be out there the next day talking to local stores to carry it and hope they'll join me in fighting bullshit.

I understand that people like you can't understand big complicated concepts like "ethics" and "sexual freedom", since those things don't have affiliate programs with $40 PPSs. But, to people like me who do care about things other than money, sexual freedoms and ethics are incredibly important, perhaps *the most* important thing. I will continue fighting anti-menstruation hysteria, despite the fact that I know better than you do that I could well go to prison for it. And you know what? Fighting sexism and promoting health sexuality is *that* important to me. Finding a wonderful controversial way to stir debate between indie pornographers and "regular" women about our bodies and our sexuality is *that* important to me. Making porn that doesn't deny actual female experiences is *that* important to me.

But go on, keep believing that "legitimate" porn is where girls are throat-fucked until the vomit and cry, and menstruating pussy on a nude model is an abomination. I don't expect you to change your point of view.

I can't remember who said it, but there's an old quote about how attitudes never actually change about anything, and that the only way we progress as a society is as the old guard dies out. Well, say hello to little Furry Girl, the next generation of smut-peddlers, catering to the next generation of smut customers.

I appreciate your efforts, if only because the government sure ain't going to look at me for obscenity.Which just proved my original point even more: people in your removed-from-everything situation care fuck-all about the other people in the industry or about general sexual freedoms or first amendment issues, you're simply looking out for yourself. Well, I actually take pride in my work and believe in what I'm doing on a higher level than making money, I'm not just linking to people who are taking all the risks for me.

You're like a chubby kid saying that you're thrilled that a fatter kid has moved to your school this year, so people will pick on him instead- hell, even you can pick on him, too! Some day, some of you might realize the truth in the old adage of

First they came for the Communists but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists but I was not one of them, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews but I was not Jewish so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.

When you get your way, and all the big bad evil people like myself are in prison, who's head do you think will be next on the block?

[webwoman]

Thank you for your continued efforts in your views on the adult industry. It could certainly use more people like you.
i'm in 100% agreement.
webwoman

[Linkster]

Ummm furrygirl - I dont think Alex meant anything like what you interpreted it as :) First off I dont believe he even owns a tgp - and yes he does shoot content - and as far as the "scene" and involvement with some of the most far away from center stuff - Ive always known him to be extremely accepting and never prejudging whatsoever. I guess maybe I just read his posts in a different light than you did as I believe he was just responding to the small amount of facts that were actually put out here.

Im pretty sure that Ive been around the BDSM scene and involved in everything from munches to local area clubs - to the largest play clubs and private gatherings for probably about 20 or 30 years longer than anyone that posts on this board. I can also tell you that even within that framework there are always going to be a few that decide to go a little beyond what even the "scene" community would normally involve themselves in (furrygirl - not pointed at you as I see what you do as perfectly within standard realms and not "out there" at all)
I also think that there are some political forces that arent being discussed here that are at play - the only reason I bring that up is that a member of a top national anti-obscenity group happens to be located very near where this "event" occured that was originally posted - and the day it happened was also the day that their head player was testifying in congress about their anti-porn efforts

To summarize - furrygirl - I dont think that you would have the same feelings/thoughts about Alex if you ever sat down and talked to him one-on-one - doing this on a board is tough as its hard to get the "jist" across properly :) I really dont think that he was "looking down his nose at anything" :)

[GonZo]

Oh please, Alex, as though I need some TGP owner trying to tell me about RISK.

What on earth do you know about RISK?

A TGP owner is perhaps the most removed element in the entire adult industry and has nearly no vested interest in industry issues. Half the sites online could have their owners sent to prison for transmitting images to conservative areas where sodomy is illegal, and you'd just switch sponsor programs. You just link to things, you have no actual investment in any part of the process of creating porn. You're not a model, who could be stalked or killed by a crazy fan; you're not a photographer, who could be attacked by a jealous boyfriend or have the cops come over and inspect his home because someone told someone that he also has children, even though they've never been exposed to anything adult; you're not a site owner, you don't have to worry about being prosecuted for the content you feature or worry about charge backs and script kiddies fucking with your site.

Until you have even the tiniest grasp of what it means to take *risks* as a part of the adult industry, please, stick to the things you do know something about.

As a model and performer, photographer, webmaster, business-owner, and adult novelty retailer, MY LIFE IS RISK. I live with that every single day, and I am fully aware of the implications of everything I do. I have devoted more than three years of my life to making porn that is often "risky".

Where do you get that I send people watersports tapes in the mail? I have pee videos and pictures on my site, and offered one to Emmanuelle. It's not some secret dirty thing, but thanks for expressing enough interest in me to read all of my posts and thoroughly inspect my free tour.

And yes, I can buy or rent piss videos here in Seattle, we are a city of perverts and queers. We even have an amateur porn film festival and a ton of adult-oriented clubs and events.

As someone else brought up on this thread, perhaps even in response to you, you are in no place to bitch at anyone about things like location releases if you haven't seen documentation that all the porn on your TGP was shot in places where the property owner signed a contract to allow adult material to be shot there. You're grasping at straws, you might as well have found the photos in my members area where I'm standing in the middle of an empty road and accuse me of jaywalking.

No, but I'd like to change that. If I ever make a DVD for EroticRed.com, I'll be out there the next day talking to local stores to carry it and hope they'll join me in fighting bullshit.

I understand that people like you can't understand big complicated concepts like "ethics" and "sexual freedom", since those things don't have affiliate programs with $40 PPSs. But, to people like me who do care about things other than money, sexual freedoms and ethics are incredibly important, perhaps *the most* important thing. I will continue fighting anti-menstruation hysteria, despite the fact that I know better than you do that I could well go to prison for it. And you know what? Fighting sexism and promoting health sexuality is *that* important to me. Finding a wonderful controversial way to stir debate between indie pornographers and "regular" women about our bodies and our sexuality is *that* important to me. Making porn that doesn't deny actual female experiences is *that* important to me.

But go on, keep believing that "legitimate" porn is where girls are throat-fucked until the vomit and cry, and menstruating pussy on a nude model is an abomination. I don't expect you to change your point of view.

I can't remember who said it, but there's an old quote about how attitudes never actually change about anything, and that the only way we progress as a society is as the old guard dies out. Well, say hello to little Furry Girl, the next generation of smut-peddlers, catering to the next generation of smut customers.

Which just proved my original point even more: people in your removed-from-everything situation care fuck-all about the other people in the industry or about general sexual freedoms or first amendment issues, you're simply looking out for yourself. Well, I actually take pride in my work and believe in what I'm doing on a higher level than making money, I'm not just linking to people who are taking all the risks for me.

You're like a chubby kid saying that you're thrilled that a fatter kid has moved to your school this year, so people will pick on him instead- hell, even you can pick on him, too! Some day, some of you might realize the truth in the old adage of



When you get your way, and all the big bad evil people like myself are in prison, who's head do you think will be next on the block?
Damn Alex... I think she just paddled your ass! Can I get pics in Vegas? But I aint paying $300!!!

[GonZo]

Ummm furrygirl - I dont think Alex meant anything like what you interpreted it as :) First off I dont believe he even owns a tgp - and yes he does shoot content - and as far as the "scene" and involvement with some of the most far away from center stuff - Ive always known him to be extremely accepting and never prejudging whatsoever. I guess maybe I just read his posts in a different light than you did as I believe he was just responding to the small amount of facts that were actually put out here.

Im pretty sure that Ive been around the BDSM scene and involved in everything from munches to local area clubs - to the largest play clubs and private gatherings for probably about 20 or 30 years longer than anyone that posts on this board. I can also tell you that even within that framework there are always going to be a few that decide to go a little beyond what even the "scene" community would normally involve themselves in (furrygirl - not pointed at you as I see what you do as perfectly within standard realms and not "out there" at all)
I also think that there are some political forces that arent being discussed here that are at play - the only reason I bring that up is that a member of a top national anti-obscenity group happens to be located very near where this "event" occured that was originally posted - and the day it happened was also the day that their head player was testifying in congress about their anti-porn efforts

To summarize - furrygirl - I dont think that you would have the same feelings/thoughts about Alex if you ever sat down and talked to him one-on-one - doing this on a board is tough as its hard to get the "jist" across properly :) I really dont think that he was "looking down his nose at anything" :)

Damn it Linkster... your fucking up my photo shoot for Vegas!

[Linkster]

Gonzo - just wear that pink fur coat and those pretty underwear and Im sure we can set up something - we should be able to get a good photoshoot on that - hmm I wonder if that last set is still around :)

[domweb]

What furrygirl said.

Whoah. Most righteous.

Pissed off women don't normally do anything for me...but damn if I don't have a hard on.

[RawAlex]

Furrygirl, let me say this, and say it real clearly: If you haven't got a clue, don't get started. Your assumptions and presumptions about me start out wrong, get much more wrong, and pretty much end up in the toilet before you are over and done with.

Assuming I am a "tgp owner" starts you way off in the wrong end of town, and you never came back. That you totally, utterly, and without a doubt missed the entire point of my post just makes your angry, flailing post that much more humorous. It would be a great post if your "facts" were true, but, hey, why let mere facts get in the way of a good rant, right?

The questions come down to this: Legal or not legal. Obscene or not obscene. Documented or not documents. Acceptable to community standards or not.

webwoman is working in a business that is honestly "at the edge" of what is acceptable in most communities. Moreover, doing that work in a house that is half in a residential neighborhood ain't exactly great, and changing (but calling it a donation) for the services is a fair risk. Effectively, depending on how the local and state officials feel, it might be considered sexual in nature, and all that it implies.

As for your stuff, you are totally free to do whatever it is that turns you on - provided you don't blow past community standards. My suggestion to you is that perhaps in seattle your pee stuff goes over well. You are in a solidly liberal state with few republicans in places of power. Take your stuff down the road to Salt Lake City or somewhere of that nature, and you would fly past community standards with the urination, and we won't even discuss the menstruation stuff. Would you do scat as well? It is, after, all, just another bodily fluid. Perhaps vomitus, or ear wax, or toejam? Really, where is the line?

"menstruating pussy on a nude model is an abomination" - no, it is totally natural, and about as sexual to most people as taking a poop or getting their stomach pumped. It is navel gazing self glorification at it's finest. Again, totally natural, just like taking a shit, but no more interesting to me, and no more likely to pass the good old community standards test.

Because you are "out on the edge", if your local government officials decide to get ugly with you, they can go all the way down to siting you for not having permits for outdoor shoots and such (I had a friend receive such a citiation, when filming a student film, and I had to explain for quite a while to the police when filming a short movie on Ste Helene's Island here in Montreal). It isn't a laughing matter, but your reply shows that you don't understand or truly appreciate what the repercussions of your actions can be.

Oh yeah, no I don't think throat fucking a girl until she is sick is any more sexy than watching you take a leak. Neither one of them would put my Levis in peril.

Your assumption that I don't understand the risks involved in shooting, producing, and selling porn is again, based on a lack of knowledge about me. I don't put the stuff out there and toot my horn, I don't build sites for it, and I don't get involved. As a matter of fact, due to changes in your government's customs laws, I have had to stop all video production / editing for US clients, as they require when I return tapes or DVDs to the client to declare that the material is not obscene. As there is no standard for obscenity, I cannot take that risk. I don't want to spend 20 years in a federal butt slamming prison because the customs office that reviewed my stuff was in SLC or some other massively conservative part of the US.

"When you get your way, and all the big bad evil people like myself are in prison, who's head do you think will be next on the block?"

Do you think I want you to go to prison? Do you think I want the DoJ all over the case? Do you think I enjoy when someone gets raided, busted, or hassled? Not in the slightest. However, just like someone driving 100MPH through a school zone, you need to take some responsiblity for your own actions. Don't blame society for putting up the speed limit signs, but think for a minute why they are there. If we were all pretty much keeping up with traffic and being reasonable, it would be VERY, VERY hard for the DoJ and the Bush whitehouse to have their way with us. Instead, we produce extreme sites, we spam, we lure kids to sites with type domains from Disney, we isntall toolbars, send viruses, mousetrap people with consoles and generally abuse and annoy people, especially those who didn't want porn to start with. When they get angry about whatever, they go and look for people EXACTLY like you, or Max Hardcore, or other extreme cases, and parade you in front of the public as "those dirty pornographers". They won't show your nice kissy face pictures, but they sure will make sure to spread your pictures of you peeing and pulling out a used tampon to every media outlet that will listen. They will put them out there in conservative think tanks, action groups, and they will use them in court... and (MOST IMPORTANT PART) the rest of us will get fucked over because a few people couldn't be reasonable.

Janet Jackson by herself caused the biggest attack on broadcast media in the last 10 years by popping her boob out on TV. The backlash is still ongoing, with networks now self censoring and running 10 second tape delays and all sorts of stuff. Without Janet, the rest of the stuff would have been tolerated. With Janet, a single bad word slipped out of an athlete's mouth during an interview is enough send network executives into a panic.

What you do is up to you. Just don't be surprised when you get pulled over and they don't just give you a ticket.

Alex

[Tommy]

yeah how can you say that Alex is just a tgp owner removed from the adult industry

I think he is one of the most talented webmasters around
he shoots content
edits videos
builds sites (i know cause I link them)
is great at SEO stuff
and runs a tgp

I beleive he even has a degree in video editing

AND he is a honest and hard working webmaster which is something we are very short on in this industry


I think your facts are dead wrong and your a little out of line

but then again what would I know or what right do I have to say anything
I am just a tgp owner

[RawAlex]

Damn tommy, I'm going to hire you to write my press releases... ;)

Alex

[webwoman]

I think the small town realized that they gave me a permit to have a business that they did not understand. When they discovered the extent of my business they knew that they could not allow it to continue. The Problem is when they came in expecting to find me in a sex act or without a permit or running an illegal website or not zoned correctly it was their documents that proved my innocents.
When they saw all my stuff they had to take it. What else could they do leave it here?
My lawyer does not think it’s a big deal. I want my stuff back because a lot of it had nothing to do with my business or lifestyle. So to conclude 2257 and all the above will be questioned. Not obscenity he said there has not been a case in CT for over 20 years.
I’m just not that hardcore. I also learned that they do have big cases going on that they want to make stick but not in ct. he did not say who but said they were very important because they are fighting it. Maybe a nuisance but that’s it

[RawAlex]

webwoman, sounds like you are getting good legal advice. I just hope that everything turns out well. I would caution you, however, that if your business permit application didn't mention the adult nature of your business, they might come back and bite yu in the ass. The Enfield zoning and planning committee seems to meet often (every 2 weeks or so, from what I gather), and I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have a church / school / daycare / playground distance to adult business rule on the books, many communities have such a zoning restriction.

Sounds like everything is turning out okay, get your stuff back and shuffle down the highway to somewhere that is more understanding of your lifestyle.

Alex

[webwoman]

Alex you are correct its 1,500 hunderd feet ..It does say adult website, adult content
and studio so i think they just want me to move on.
you do give good advise when read in proper context.
Thanks webwoman

[docholly]

WOW! Internext is really going to be quite interesting this year. |waves|

[emmanuelle]

I think that ultimately it comes down to risk vs reward. Risk is something that we encounter every day, but individual tolerance for risk varies. I think it's clear that Alex has a very low tolerance for risk, which is what works for him. FG on the other hand does not focus on the potential negative consequences, preferring to focus on the anticipation of positive consequences.

We're each entitled to make those decisions for ourselves, neither is right or wrong.

[Useless]

Webwoman - I want you to know, no matter how harsh we sometimes seem, we all really want you to come out on top of this. None of us would wish that type of embarrassment and legal scare on another from our community.

And our in-fighting may seem a little crazy, but this is how we educate each other - through vigorous debate. As bad as any raid or legal action is for this community, it's good that we can walk away with a lesson learned, hopefully unscathed.

[RawAlex]

I think that ultimately it comes down to risk vs reward. Risk is something that we encounter every day, but individual tolerance for risk varies. I think it's clear that Alex has a very low tolerance for risk, which is what works for him. FG on the other hand does not focus on the potential negative consequences, preferring to focus on the anticipation of positive consequences.

We're each entitled to make those decisions for ourselves, neither is right or wrong.

Having worked for someone (in a non-related business) that got shafted by local government, I know how they work. They want to get rid of you, so they stop you for something simple (burned out taillight on your car) and they use that as an excuse to start a little witch hunt.

Most people are unaware or fail to understand the concept of "piling it on". Many laws are written in such a way that if you do 1 thing wrong, they can put about 50 -100 charges on you. My example with FG was the simple outdoor photoshoot. That would be enough to merit a warrent to check all of her content, and in that review, they could possibly find other things that didn't like. What starts with a simple "commercial movie production without a location permit" can end up being so much more. Giving (especially) local officials a small way in the door can lead to insane amounts of trouble. There is always something else that can be found.

webwoman: The best thing anyone can do here is learn from your experience. It seems like something very small (which most people would ignore) starts a chain of events that leads you to likely have to move your business and yourself. I have a feeling that the big building kitty corner to you is a church. Most people don't even consider the zoning aspects of their business. Good luck and let us know the end results.

Alex

[webwoman]

on my way out the door to the lawyer now...will keep you posted.

[weirdharold]

We sincerly would like to be kept posted....

By the way, this thread has left me fairly impressed with those who have taken part... We haven't all agreed on this subject, but it was mostly discussed in a rational manner without anyone getting way out of bounds..... and UW I thinki your comment on the educational value of such discussions are right on the mark. I think I will have to spend more time wandering through the threads here.

[RawAlex]

Harold, there is a large mix of people here with different experiences and backgrounds. Literally nuclear engineers to garbage men, and everything in between. The variety and breadth of the experiences really do bring some amazing things to light in these discussions.

It is also good that there are many people here who have been in the business for a very long time. Jim has been in this business since, well, before there was a business. You can't buy experience ;)

I look forward to seeing how this one turns out.

Alex

[furrygirl]

Furrygirl, let me say this, and say it real clearly: If you haven't got a clue, don't get started. Your assumptions and presumptions about me start out wrong, get much more wrong, and pretty much end up in the toilet before you are over and done with.You ripped Webwoman a new asshole based on your own assumptions about her situation from what info she posted here, but then you get your panties in a twist when I make a post based on what I know of you from info on this board. What's the difference? You are not someone who I have ever interacted with in any way in my adult career thus far, and I'd never heard of "RawAlex" before I came here. Maybe you're some superstar to your friends who know you well, but as far as anyone can tell from this forum, you run a TGP.

The questions come down to this: Legal or not legal. Obscene or not obscene. Documented or not documents. Acceptable to community standards or not.My menstruation porn is legal and fully documented, as is the rest of what I produce and buy. The second two are extremely arbitrary standards which vary from town to town, which are standards that *any* porn could be shot down under, so they are a moot point.

Would you do scat as well? It is, after, all, just another bodily fluid. Perhaps vomitus, or ear wax, or toejam? Really, where is the line?You've missed my point on the matter entirely, but then again, most mass-market pornographers who can't think outside the box do, too.

The point of having a menstruation site is not to try and compete with the trend of making something as shocking and crazy and irresponsible and sketchy as possible while still being just this side of legal, it's to focus on menstruation itself as a natural healthy part of adult female sexuality. Your examples of stomach-pumping, toe infections, and vomit as a part of healthy adult sexuality do nothing more than show how little you know about women or respect us.

And anyway, vomit has already been "normalized" in the biz to the extent that for ever "period" photo I've seen, I've seen 20 photos of a girl being throat-fucked until she vomits.

Because you are "out on the edge", if your local government officials decide to get ugly with you, they can go all the way down to siting you for not having permits for outdoor shoots and such (I had a friend receive such a citiation, when filming a student film, and I had to explain for quite a while to the police when filming a short movie on Ste Helene's Island here in Montreal).Oh, anecdotal evidence from another country that has nothing to do with porn, that's a great argument.

Give me some solid facts from the US as to how often the government pursues adult sites for whether or not they had shooting permits for their locations, or quit harping on it.

However, just like someone driving 100MPH through a school zone, you need to take some responsiblity for your own actions. Don't blame society for putting up the speed limit signs, but think for a minute why they are there.Thinking for a minute about why the stop sign in on Menstrual Avenue is actually exactly what I'm trying to get people to do.

And quit with the dad-talk of telling me that I need to be responsible for my own actions, you being condescending doesn't change the fact that I am one of the most responsible ethics-driven adult webmasters you will ever meet, and who is willing to fight for everyone's right for freedom of sexual expression, even if it means I would go to prison for it.

... and (MOST IMPORTANT PART) the rest of us will get fucked over because a few people couldn't be reasonable.Oh please, if it weren't for people like me, sticking their necks out, the adult industry would have been driven underground decades/centuries ago and you would have never had the chance to start your own adult projects. I make porn with consenting adults over the age of 18 which displays non-violent, happy, healthy, body-positive sexuality featuring wonderful models who are proud to be making porn with me and expressing themselves in a friendly environment.

If you want to pick on anyone, pick on sites that cater to pedophiles or tacitly encourage rape. You know, the sites made by the big sponsors.

[SirMoby]

Any body have any popcorn? :)

[RawAlex]

I had a whole big post typed up, and I deleted it.

I have nothing to prove here.

Furrygirl, honestly, you don't have a clue. You don't get it. Not even in the slightest. You don't see the line between sexual and non-sexual. You don't seem to understand that most people are comfortable with their sexuality, but they still close the door when they go to the bathroom. Only a very small number of people want to see what happens behind that door, and I doubt it is for purely sexual reasons. As mentioned in another thread here, more than likely coming from mommy complexes, or other non-sexual issues. Much in the same way that Rape has little to do with sex (it is an act of domination and / or rage), people into scat or menstruation aren't involved in it for any sort of sexual thrill.

Your own words: "It's not real honest female sexuality they're after, it's these little things that are removed from it, which are held up *as* female sexuality. Many of the period guys are sweethearts and subbies, but a number of them are vicious misogynists who actually truly *hate* women for say, not sharing their used pads with them, or popping their fetish bubble and saying that most chicks don't get sopping wet walking down the "feminine needs" section in the grocery store."

Do you really think there is much difference between these people who have a warped view of bodily functions and people who commit rape? In all cases, they would appear to have certain disfunction when it comes to male-female relationships.

Alex

[Chop Smith]

Someone needs to borrow a whip from webwoman and take a kid out behind the wood shed and wear her ass out.

[RawAlex]

Any body have any popcorn? :)

There may be some, but the "flavored toppings" aren't exactly what you are expecting.

Alex

[Tommy]

but then you get your panties in a twist when I make a post based on what I know of you from info on this board.

I bet if those panties had blood on them that would be different situation

[webwoman]

Updates on what’s going on .The first amendment attorney met with my bankruptcy attorney today to find out what happens in a situation where the courts already approved my business.
This is how it began prior to the raid.

I was in the mist of doing a bankruptcy and was told that I had to make xxx amount of money to qualify for a chapter 13.
I had an interest in doing a membership site as well as selling custom made furniture and videos.
I have always been a Dominant female but was not completely convinced that I would be able to earn enough money before they foreclosed on my home.
They gave me a month to come up with a plan that would prove that I could make enough money to pay back my debt
This allowed me enough time to gather all the paper work that was needed to run my business.
It took months to get it approved. I had to show a month to month history of everything I did to earn money. When my income got to a level that matched the amount needed to make my plan payments they entered my business into the books as an adult base business for website, video, content and a custom furniture store. The two rooms I ran my business out of became a studio where we shoot our content and did videos for the site.
They approved it. And each month watched it grow.

Here is what is taking place now
Together the two attorneys are taking my case to court to fight the reason why they came in and seized all of my stuff.
He said that because it was documented in the courts as an adult based business and I made all my plan payments from my income from it. .
The stuff they took was listed on the court papers from the bankruptcy case so it was business property.
He is going to claim that my livelihood was taken away after my business was already approved on record.
The raid puts us in default and now we are unable to make our payments.
They will have to dismiss the bankruptcy and wipe the debt clean.
If they don’t let me run my business so I can pay for it.
My bankruptcy lawyer busted his ass getting it approved and he won’t let it go.
The first amendment attorney thinks our rights have been violated so he wants to fight it
So I think it’s a good thing …it may help others in ct in the end.
Friday I go to a strategy meeting to see how we begin this fight .It should be interesting
Anyway he wants me to keep the site up so I will for now.
Still thinks the town doesn’t want me here and that’s what it about. But I will do what I have to to continue ..and make sure this time no mistakes are made.

[RawAlex]

You still have answered the main question: Why did they raid you to start with? Because of the bankrupcy? Because of the zoning? Because of the "donations" part of your business?

I didn't catch the actual answer in your post.

Alex

[webwoman]

We dont have the warrant but because it was local and state they believe it was for either the fact that it was adult based and thought it was not on the books as such.
there was a mention that they thought it was a consulting firm but they did not read what kind. Also because the donations they thought i was running some type of club that was not zoned. More than likely it zoning and permit stuff and the though of me doing any sex acts i would guesss. I guess because its not sex for money its hard to say what you can and cant do to someone..no such laws exsist in ct where it specifies what you can do in bdsm. its a greay area ..i cant wait to watch it unfold though ..still i feel that you all have helped me alot.and your points were correct they do look at all those things ..he did say that as long as it all checks out we will be ok.
and he is assured it will,

[Chop Smith]

Bankruptcy is Federal. Bust is local. How are they related?

[furrygirl]

Alex, if you mattered to me or if I respected you in any way as a human being or a business colleague, maybe I would give a shit that you don't like me. All of your posts sound like they're coming from someone who thinks they're extremely famous and important in the adult industry, like I should submit to you like a helpless little newbie who can barely tie my shoes.

You haven't the least bit of understanding about human sexuality, so don't try and dissect fetishes from a group of people you've never spent a minute of your life with. You know why I say that many menstrual fetishists started their interest from what their mothers had under the sink or in the wastebasket? Is it because I'm mean, or trying to dismiss anyone's sexual desires? No, it's BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY'VE TOLD ME, in their own words. So, you think that you can take what I've learned in 2 years of following a community of fetish folk and turn it around at me? Ha, nice try.

Good lordy, it's so heartbreaking that pornographers like you are the ones with more traffic and more ability to influence people with your backward-ass ways of thinking.

[Chop Smith]

Good lordy, it's so heartbreaking that pornographers like you are the ones with more traffic and more ability to influence people with your backward-ass ways of thinking.
Furrygirl, have you ever considered that perhaps this is not the right board for you? Just a bunch of dumb asses hang out here.

[furrygirl]

Furrygirl, have you ever consider that perhaps this is not the right board for you? Just a bunch of dumb asses hang out here.GG&J certainly wins over the last adult board I left, where the owners and most vocal members were rabid supporters of the Bush administration. Campaigning for those who seek to destroy you is far more unforgiveable a flaw in an adult webmaster than simple ignorance of human sexuality and women. :D

[webwoman]

my post before this one explaines the connection

[RawAlex]

furrygirl, let's play here.

Let's say someone has a business with a dozen employees, makes good money, but sometimes is resticted by, say, unfair import duties on their products. Perhaps they are losing business because another country pays their employees much less to do the same job. They have a fairly big business, and they work with the process of government, lawyers, and pressure to improve their situation and make it work out as well as can be considered.

You will notice that none of those business people were standing out on the street at the G8 summits wearing gas masks, destroying buildings, throwing firebombs, and attacking police.

The people on the street had little, so they had little to lose. They don't understand or care how their actions might affect other people, they don't care about the businesses destroyed or the people injured or the mayhem caused, as long as their points got somehow heard. Often, their points are lost in the noise of overdone protest.

Understanding and accepting that there are rules and regulations that cover our buisnesses (including such ignorant things as zoning, business permits, and obscenity laws) and the pressures applied by partner companies (such as hosting, credit card processing, and search engines).

Our industry serves itself well (IMHO) when it is careful to nurture the type of positive relationships with companies that will alow the industry to continue to grow long term. When it comes time to disagree with those partners, we do best to choose our battles wisely and use captial wisely to get them to stay in the game and perhaps open their minds a little bit more.

You have a different opinion. You are welcome to it.

Alex

[RawAlex]

GG&J certainly wins over the last adult board I left, where the owners and most vocal members were rabid supporters of the Bush administration. Campaigning for those who seek to destroy you is far more unforgiveable a flaw in an adult webmaster than simple ignorance of human sexuality and women. :D

So I am ignorant now, too?

Please. |huh

[Tommy]

Ya know in the end things balance themselves out

I believe that this industry needs self regulation

the credit card company's and third party billers have already done a very good job of weeding out some of the more undesirable stuff

I wish the hosting companys would do more
or could do more

[plateman]

I hate to jump in here but I've been reading this thing since day one, and I can say its been interesting to read both sides and they both had very good arguments.. then it turned into a movie script type thing.. I think you two should call a truce...
|waves|

[furrygirl]

Sweet jeebus! Now you want to debate "free" trade with me, Alex? Maybe next week we can argue about which religion has the one true god?

Sorry, you're too dull for me to waste any time on you with any new issues.

I'm going to do something more productive and go watch "Beneath The Planet Of the Apes".

[GenXer]

That is scary stuff indeed! If they showed you no search warrant, I don't see where they were supposed to do that! It sounds like a giant harrassment to me.

[Flesh_Merchant]

I apologize for being a bit late to the party but there are a few things that I would like to point out that I did not see mentioned anywhere so far....

In regards to the issue of "prostitution" I think in general by legal standards "prostitution" would be considered as a person paying for any type of "sexual gratification". This does not necessarily mean "sex" as we know it and so if Johnny Boy gets off on being spanked then if the powers that be wanted to press the case they could do so and regardless of where the act(s) took place the situation would be the same.....whether she was running this business from her home or from a retail location would not change the situation much.

I've been involved in all aspects of the adult entertainment industry over the past 15 plus years and that does include the ownership/management of adult oriented clubs as well as an escort service and one thing I can tell you for certain is that if the city/state wants to make a case against someone they will and let the lawyers sort it out and see if they can get a conviction. I know for a fact that most working girls charged with prostitution often times are not convicted or they end up with deferred adjudication/probation. I know for a fact that police departments will go so far as to basically force people out of their jurisdiction by using tactics as described here regardless of whether or not they could get a guilty verdict in court on any charges they may file.

Almost every dominatrix that I know charges some sort of fee or "donation" for their services and although I would admit it's a bit odd for one to over "overnight" sessions who are we to say just how long anyone should be given to indulge their fantasies...

I don't think that there is a single person in this industry who could not be the target of legal action since for the most part there is a very thin line at times between what is legal and what is not and in the area of obscenity that line is very easy to cross since there really are not any set in stone guidelines in regards to what may be obscene and what is not.

A lot of people had some rather harsh things to say in this thread and I think many would be best served to do a bit more thinking before speaking since at any given time any of us could have the authorities at our door questioning what we thought were our above board and legal practices.

Best of luck to you WebWoman

[GonZo]

Ya know in the end things balance themselves out

I believe that this industry needs self regulation

the credit card company's and third party billers have already done a very good job of weeding out some of the more undesirable stuff

I wish the hosting companys would do more
or could do more

Tommy I agree some sort of self regulation is in order but you know as well as I do getting a group of us to even agree on where to go to dinner is like herding cats.

I did an interview last week with one of the Xbiz world reporters about some self regulation proposals and this new association Bill Margold is proposing....

I wont spoil the interview but I will cut and paste what hes proposing....

"Margold is calling for the formation of something called AMERA; the Adult Media Entertainment Responsibilities Associations. This organization would somehow try to encourage compliance with his six-point plan, which is:



1) An end to extreme hardcore content.

2) IV drug testing to discourage use of performers that are on IV drugs.

3) A 21-and-over age limit for performers that do hardcore.

4) Cutting ties with the escort business by not allowing escorts to perform in front of the camera.

5) Not using foreign talent unless they have legitimate papers to work in the US.

6) Working with the government to legislate a "porn tax" similar to alcohol and gambling taxes."

Self regulation is being discussed.

[Surfn]

Tommy I agree some sort of self regulation is in order but you know as well as I do getting a group of us to even agree on where to go to dinner is like herding cats.

I did an interview last week with one of the Xbiz world reporters about some self regulation proposals and this new association Bill Margold is proposing....

I wont spoil the interview but I will cut and paste what hes proposing....

"Margold is calling for the formation of something called AMERA; the Adult Media Entertainment Responsibilities Associations. This organization would somehow try to encourage compliance with his six-point plan, which is:



1) An end to extreme hardcore content.

2) IV drug testing to discourage use of performers that are on IV drugs.

3) A 21-and-over age limit for performers that do hardcore.

4) Cutting ties with the escort business by not allowing escorts to perform in front of the camera.

5) Not using foreign talent unless they have legitimate papers to work in the US.

6) Working with the government to legislate a "porn tax" similar to alcohol and gambling taxes."

Self regulation is being discussed.
I see number 6 as a deal breaker.

[Useless]

I see number 6 as a deal breaker.Numbers 2 & 3 are the only ones that I can agree to without more discussion. Guess it's a good thing that it isn't all up to me.

Where's the cat herder?

[emmanuelle]

"Margold is calling for the formation of something called AMERA; the Adult Media Entertainment Responsibilities Associations. This organization would somehow try to encourage compliance with his six-point plan, which is:



1) An end to extreme hardcore content.

2) IV drug testing to discourage use of performers that are on IV drugs.

3) A 21-and-over age limit for performers that do hardcore.

4) Cutting ties with the escort business by not allowing escorts to perform in front of the camera.

5) Not using foreign talent unless they have legitimate papers to work in the US.

6) Working with the government to legislate a "porn tax" similar to alcohol and gambling taxes."

Self regulation is being discussed.


I used to be a big fan of Bill Margold but over the past few years he's seemed a bit loony.

1- I personally would love to see this, but not at the expense of free speech
2-Should be common sense, but then who would shoot with Max?
3-Hurrah! (My own personal shooting policy btw, as I don't feel that any 18 year old girl is equipped to make decision with such far reaching consequences)
4-That's just silly. Are they going to bar "pornstars" from crossover in the reverse direction too?
5- Under 2257, isnt this already the law?
6- Will never happen. Taxation creates legitimacy, something the US is not ready for. You'll see a tax on pot before a tax on porn.

[RawAlex]

Sweet jeebus! Now you want to debate "free" trade with me, Alex? Maybe next week we can argue about which religion has the one true god?

Sorry, you're too dull for me to waste any time on you with any new issues.

I'm going to do something more productive and go watch "Beneath The Planet Of the Apes".

You proved by this post alone that you really haven't read a word I posted.

As soon as the discussion wasn't exactly about you, you are gone.

I understand.

|rock| |rock| |rock| |rock| |rock| |rock| |rock| |rock| |rock| |rock|
Alex

[RawAlex]

Bill Margold is a very interesting man (I have spent a fair amount of time with him on various subjects, and I got to really understand a fair bit about what he does). At least a couple of these points sum up his beliefs very well indeed.

You have to remember that Bill is not suggesting that any of this content would go away entirely, but is suggesting that if the mainstream part of the industry went this way, things would change as a result. This isn't to limit free speech, just to get the majority of the industry to stay away from certain areas that are not good for us.

1 - matter of taste. If the distributors wouldn't carry it, the producers wouldn't make it.
2 - the industry needs to stop taking advantage of the weakest members of society. They need to stop taking risks. The porn industry shouldn't be the paycheck keeping these people on the gear (nor should any other company in any other business tolerate or encourage it).
3 - we all like our teen girls... but are they mentally ready to make this choice? (My personal feeling is if they are able to vote and die in a war, they are allowed to fuck on camera... but that is just me)
4 - The intention here is good, the reality is that too many porn girl make their big money do PSE hooker worker, charging upwards to $2000 an hour. Unless the porn buisness is going to come up with much larger paychecks, the girls and guys will go out and hook, dance, and whatever to make a living.
5 - The porn business should not be any different from mainstream films. If they want out of country workers to appear in a film they have to get the right documents from immigration to do it. Why should the porn business be different?
6 - a small but clear porntax (collected at point of sale, example) would go miles toward legitimizing the business. The government can only tax what is legal - once taxed, you are defeacto legal.

Bill isn't entirely right or wrong, but I can see where he is going. Personal responsiblity to assure that the indsutry as a whole can continue for a long time to come, and that the industry stops taking advantage of the most vunerable people.

Alex

[Tommy]

3 - we all like our teen girls... but are they mentally ready to make this choice? (My personal feeling is if they are able to vote and die in a war, they are allowed to fuck on camera... but that is just me)
Alex

I think the age should be 21 to appear in a nude or hardcore whatever

I do not beleive that an 18 year old is mesntally ready

before everyone starts in on the army bs

I also think that a person should be 21 to go in to combat

meaning they can serve in the miltary at 18 but not be assigined to combat units untill 21

and 21 to drink

and 21 to drive unless they are in the miltary or go to college or have a full time job that requries driving

[Flesh_Merchant]

I would like to wish everyone here at GG & J a Happy Thanksgiving!

Now on to the matter at hand.....

1) An end to extreme hardcore content.
I have several objections to this but I think the biggest question would be who exactly defines what is "extreme"? There is no way that we should allow censorship to take place as I don't think anyone should have the right to judge what should be acceptable sexual conduct between two consenting adults. Anyone who thinks that could put an end to extreme content and sex is clearly wrong and but trying to limit even more what acts could be considered acceptable we would only be seeding the growth of a new underground market for material that would no longer be considered legal. Keep in mind that today film producers really don't need distributors and with VOD and IPTV technology producers of 'extreme" content can produce material and distribute it directly to buyers who are interested in such material.
When people get around to thinking about making changes to the adult industry they should really take a good look at how some of these ideas will really change what may be considered a "problem"....Do we draw the line at anal sex being too taboo? maybe interracial or gay sex. Censorship will only lead to more censorship and will not solve any of the so-called "problems' associated with the adult industry.

2) IV drug testing to discourage use of performers that are on IV drugs.
Are we only going to test people for drugs which may be taken intravenously? In all seriousness most drugs that could be taken intravenously can also be administered into the human body by other means with the same effect so I really have to wonder if this idea has much more to do with the generally negative feelings that most people have towards IV drug use as compared to really trying to do something to help protect the industry. IV use is of course always brought up when HIV/AIDS comes up but with the exception of the dangers involved with the sharing of used needles is an IV drug user any more at risk of contracting and spreading HIV or any other disease than an 18 (or better yet 21) year old performer who uses recreational drugs and engages in reckless sexual behavior.
If you're going to test people for drugs then test them for all controlled substances regardless of how those drugs may have been administered into the body....Don't take the politician route and use "hot topics" such as IV drug use to make things to the outside world seem like something is being done and things are changing when nothing really has. If you want to rid the adult industry of drug use then pot heads and coke whores have to get thrown out with the IV drug users but people need to keep in mind that drug use isn't an adult industry problem it's just a problem and people from past presidents to the cop patrolling your neighborhood may have a drug problem but the last thing anyone will hear of is the mandatory testing of everyone on Capitol Hill for controlled substances and the abuse of prescription medication.

3) A 21-and-over age limit for performers that do hardcore.
I really think a lot of these suggestions are more about PERCEPTION than reality....
If we all agree to use 21 and older performers we could say to the government that we are doing our best to try and protect young people but on the other hand are we really making a difference? Now we would have 18 thru 20 year olds who are interested in the financial gains available by working in the adult industry simply making their living as hookers as compared to being adult film performers. We haven't really solved anything and the fact of the matter is that when it's all said and done the Adult Entertainment Industry as a whole would still be looked at as a problem. Take the current 2257 legislation which honestly does very little to stop the production and distribution of child pornography and only serves to place an unneeded burden on producers and create a security/privacy issue for performers.
We really should not stoop to use political tactics in order to somehow change the governments view of the adult industry since we all know that such tactics really have no positive effects when it comes to solving the problem and only serve to make it look like the government or in this case AMERA is actually making a difference. At age 18 you can drive a car, go to war and die, or have an abortion and so for us to say that a person at age 18 is competent to make these decisions but not make a decision on how they would like to make their living is absolute nonsense. The age of consent in most states ranges from 16 to 18 and so the US/State government has made a decision that those individuals are capable of making rational decisions about having sex and they are also considered "adults" at that age but are they are not capable of making job decisions

4) Cutting ties with the escort business by not allowing escorts to perform in front of the camera.
I had to laugh a bit when I read this....regardless of what anyone may think the line between prostitution and being an adult performer is very thin. Although prostitution is illegal in most states having someone on hand to video tape the events for a "theatrical production" voids that illegality but for the most part the acts performed by the parties involved remain the same. We all know that a great number of adult performers make a considerable portion of the income from activities such as escorting....The real problem here lies is that for us to self censor and say that a performer can not work as an escort implies that all escorts are doing something illegal or immoral like having sex for money and that somehow just seems like the pot calling the kettle black.

5) Not using foreign talent unless they have legitimate papers to work in the US.
This may be the only thing here that makes sense but then again isn't it against the law to hire undocumented workers to begin with?
The last thing I really think any of us need are more rules out there to stack on top of the existing rules which are already in place. If the government wants to start enforcing this rule then let them feel free to do so but I really don't think this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

6) Working with the government to legislate a "porn tax" similar to alcohol and gambling taxes.
Although many have expressed that they feel that a "porn" or "sin" tax as it is often referred to would add a bit of legitimacy to the adult industry I really find this to be bullshit. First of the concept as a whole does nothing but put porn in a negative light...A porn or sin tax pretty much suggests that there is something a bit wrong with what we do but that the government will tolerate it as long as they get a cut of the pie and that is not something I can agree with. Is this a tax or the beginning of legalized extortion of the adult industry?
I would also like to know exactly where would this money go? Would this money go to fund anti-adult agencies so that we can help fund our very own demise or would the money go the the states or feds so that they can use the funds to pay more political bribes and fund more unneeded and unwarranted "military action" in foreign countries. I'm not a smoker but consider the ever rising tax being applied to cigarettes....All this has truly done in raise the cost of cigarettes to the consumer while bringing in more money for the government without doing mush to stop people from smoking or helping those who make be suffering from smoking related illness.



Mack Diesel
FLESH MERCHANT
"What's Your Pleasure?"
www.FleshMerchant.com

[GenXer]

What an interesting reply, flesh merchant. I must say I agree with most of what you say.

[Wazza]

1) An end to extreme hardcore content.

Bye bye bondage... then DP, then creampie, then bukkake... to steal a phrase - it's a slippery slope...

2) IV drug testing to discourage use of performers that are on IV drugs.

huh?

3) A 21-and-over age limit for performers that do hardcore.

then 25 next time around?

4) Cutting ties with the escort business by not allowing escorts to perform in front of the camera.

huh?

5) Not using foreign talent unless they have legitimate papers to work in the US.

there are other countries now?

6) Working with the government to legislate a "porn tax" similar to alcohol and gambling taxes."

yeah right!

Nup... can't find a single one that I agree with there...

[DJilla]

Webwoman: Obviously, you didn't take my adivce to be quiet soooo...

I wish you the best and caution you to be very, very, cautious. Lawyers are a funny bunch and if you don't actually know the one you are dealing with its best not to follow their advice blindly without doing your own research. However, it does sound like you have a better than average situation given the complication of the bankruptcy situation (sorry that you are further caught up in the cross fire of more garbage piled up on top of an already bad situation). Two thoughts come to mind:

1) Just because you haven't heard anything generally doesn't mean that "they made an honest mistake and aren't trying to drive you into the ground. It usually means that they are just waiting to present what they have to a grand jury (The king never admits a mistake if only because it would then be actionable for damages) I can't imagine the situation where they'll go "Ooops... never mind"... so methinks you still have trouble ahead and be careful.
2) At minimum I would guess they want you out of town or out of business... don't fight it, negotiate an agreement and melt back into the framework of your community. Enough said: good luck!

Furry Girl: After watching your other posts and seeing that you generally have a sweet temperment, I was a little surprised to see you go so hysterical in this thread. I understood once I realized that you feel you are defending what most would agree is obnoxious content and I gotta tell you it will NEVER be acceptable like you proclaim it should be. You are merely defending what you do and wrapping it in a Joan of Arc type crusade. You should step aside a minute and realize that you are justifying yourself and not being objective. If you are going to be "out there" then be willing to take the hits from a majority of people who find your stuff disgusting and just don't care. Don't act like everyone else is crazy. Raw Alex not only has NOT said anything that wasn't pretty reasonable, but I can see many times he opened the door to you and offered an olive branch to having a reaonable debate and not keep it on the personal level that you kept dragging it back too. Calm down and go back to your sweet self who knows a secret no one else can understand.

FOR ME, I'm glad you're out there like that and encourage you to do more and better! You do have some guts and as long as you're pushing the barf bag stuff I know that I can safely peddle my tame stuff behind the wave that you've created.
While they are paying attention to you they'll ignore me. You are a valuable asset to the porn game because as Raw Alex originally said, you are the one likely to get the speeding ticket. This is good for everyone else because they'll get to slide right by when you take the sacrificial hit. They should be thanking you instead of attacking you.

Bill Margold: Somebody please stuff a rag in his mouth and tie him up somewhere!

The official position is:

Porn is ART and EXPRESSION!
There will be no concessions.
There will be no negotiated agreements.
There will be no taxes.
There will be no regulation.
There will be no quarter!
Period!

[weirdharold]

The official position is:

Porn is ART and EXPRESSION!
There will be no concessions.
There will be no negotiated agreements.
There will be no taxes.
There will be no regulation.
There will be no quarter!
Period!

Well said, because if we give one hard won inch... they will take a mile!

[furrygirl]

1) An end to extreme hardcore content.

2) IV drug testing to discourage use of performers that are on IV drugs.

3) A 21-and-over age limit for performers that do hardcore.

4) Cutting ties with the escort business by not allowing escorts to perform in front of the camera.

5) Not using foreign talent unless they have legitimate papers to work in the US.

6) Working with the government to legislate a "porn tax" similar to alcohol and gambling taxes."

Self regulation is being discussed.I'm all for industry-initiated self-regulation and discussion of ethics in the industry, but as Gonzo said, it's like herding cats. Whereas I'm ethically aghast at pedo-bait sites and violent degrading content, there as plenty of people ethically aghast at me for menstruating during a softcore stripping set.

3) As someone who got started at 18, I am always irked by these things. I understand where people whom I respect are coming from when they advocate over-21 policies, but I don't think that it would address either of the reasons I see for having such a rule. One, there is nothing that says a 21-year-old is more secure, mature, and better at making decisions about her life and her body than an 18-year-old. Even people in their 30s or 40s or 80s can later regret making porn and feel like they made a wrong decision or were lured into something evil with the promise of money. Two, if this is to combat pedo-bait sites like Little April, many sites/photogs/talent are trying to make performers/themselves look as much like a teenager as possible, and many sites will *always* push "she's so young" as a top selling point of their sites, whether the models are 18 or 21 or 35. I see no reason to deny legal consensual adult work to 18-year-olds.

(Personally, I have made a conscious point of never using the word "teen" or "young" to sell myself and my site, even though I have plenty of content shot when I was 18 and 19. I actually go out of my way to correct anyone who calls me a teen, and I *never* talk about "my first time" or any borderline illegal stories of underage sexual antics that are ubiquitous on adult sites. Seriously, what is with *that* being normalized?)

4) Can we just use the word prostitute and cut with the "escort" euphemisms? I don't look down at prostitutes in the least or think what they are doing is morally wrong, but I don't like beating around the bush. This would be the hardest thing in the world to try and set rules for and enforce. Aside from models who do a bit of extra work on the side, look at all the adult talent that does occasional brothel work as such-and-such-pornstar, are we going to then cut them off from the "legal" adult industry? Or is this only for prostitutes outside of legal brothels? Sticky, sticky.

5) Well, there goes iFriends and all the cam networks populated by eastern bloc ladies.

6) Feeding the hand that bites us... yeah, sign me up for that one.

Still, these are a great starting point for a kick-ass discussion, and something that would make a lively last-minute panel for Internext/AEE.

[furrygirl]

You should step aside a minute and realize that you are justifying yourself and not being objective. If you are going to be "out there" then be willing to take the hits from a majority of people who find your stuff disgusting and just don't care. Don't act like everyone else is crazy.I'm absolutely not objective about the personal porn that I meake which features myself and my cunt. Spend 22 years being told that your body is shameful, disgusting, barf-worthy, dirty, stinky, too out-there, and obscene, and then try to give me a lesson on objectivity. Sorry, dude, but this is something you will just never understand.

[DJilla]

Spend 22 years being told that your body is shameful, disgusting, barf-worthy, dirty, stinky, too out-there, and obscene, and then try to give me a lesson on objectivity. Sorry, dude, but this is something you will just never understand.

But just the opposite, I think I do understand, I understand that you are dealing with your own point of view and expression of it. I'm fully supportive of that and you. What I'm trying to point out is that you may be extremely wrapped up in ONLY your point of view and that you lose sight of the fact that there is probably a large body of people that find your position/expression extreme and therefore threatening, unpleasant, whatever. Because of this you're going to take some hits. The objective part I'm referring to comes from you knowing and accepting this and letting the hits roll off of you like a raincoat and not taking it so personally. Its not a cirticism of you as a person but of your art. This is a legitimate endeavor when you invite people to partake in your expression publicly. When they do, negativity is going to come. You need to lighten up when it does and not be so touchy. Like I said, your stuff may not be to my taste but I love that you've got the guts to be out there with it for whatever your personal reasons. I just don't think you need to be so defensive or hostile just because others are goading you.

Rock On Babe!

[furrygirl]

I went away for a couple days to focus on work.

But just the opposite, I think I do understand, I understand that you are dealing with your own point of view and expression of it. I'm fully supportive of that and you. What I'm trying to point out is that you may be extremely wrapped up in ONLY your point of view and that you lose sight of the fact that there is probably a large body of people that find your position/expression extreme and therefore threatening, unpleasant, whatever. Because of this you're going to take some hits. The objective part I'm referring to comes from you knowing and accepting this and letting the hits roll off of you like a raincoat and not taking it so personally. Its not a cirticism of you as a person but of your art. This is a legitimate endeavor when you invite people to partake in your expression publicly. When they do, negativity is going to come. You need to lighten up when it does and not be so touchy. Like I said, your stuff may not be to my taste but I love that you've got the guts to be out there with it for whatever your personal reasons. I just don't think you need to be so defensive or hostile just because others are goading you.

Rock On Babe!There's a difference between being able to be critiqued by colleagues and being told that you're barf-worthy, disgusting, offensive, and that your pussy goo is no different from shit. Those are not mature, productive, objective discussion points, so it's no wonder that I don't have a non-objective response to them.

Secondly, Alex has not been making rational claims or backing up his presumptions with fact. He is fear mongering to the extent of inferring that a little pussy blood could be the end of the porn industry as we know it, and I really shouldn't even have to dignify that sort of panicky-ass finger-pointing behavior with a reply.

I don't understand how we made it to this backwards reality of saying that fright-based sky-is-falling arguments are some kind of "fact" compared my own historically documented "opinion" that the only way that the adult industry has made it this far is because a few people have been willing to go to bat for *all* of us and challenge bad laws and obscenity standards.

[webwoman]

UP DATE attorney interview on Ynot.
http://www.ynot.com/index.php

[RawAlex]

Furrygirl, you don't get it, do you?

MY PERSONALLY OPINION AND MY BUSINESS OPINION ARE DIFFERENT. You can't seem to grasp that very simple concept. I got my freaking red wings long before you were born, that isn't an issue. PERSONALLY I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK WHAT YOU DO.

However, from a business stand point, the rules from V&MC are clear - something are in (including gagging blowjobs, for reason I don't get) and some things are out (blood, scat, bestiality...).

You are trying to say that I think your blood is disgusting. From a business stand point, it is NOT PART OF THE BUSINESS AT THIS POINT. I also don't think that there is enough new or additional income to be had on this type of content to make it worth fighting with V&MC over the content, compared to what could be lost if they decide to restrict current porn any further.

I DON'T DENY YOU YOUR RIGHT TO BE FREE... I don't deny you your right to do what you think is right, and I don't deny you your chance to find out if your material would be judged obscene or not if the DoJ knocks on your door. I just don't want to fuck up the rest of the profitable porn business by pissing off V&MC by trying to get sites accepted one way or another that are not acceptable by their current rules.

Obscenity is a community standard, and my feeling is that blood sites would likely not go over well in all communities (neither would gagging, neither would some of the other sites that are pushing the envelope in whatever direction they are pushing).

You can fight the obscenity side of it all you like, more power to you, and plenty of people here would link to you and watch you go. From a personal standpoint, you can go fight how you like. From a business standpoint, I don't think our industry needs to be dragged into another battle that can easily be turned into bad press and another rally cry to "stop them dirty porn mongers".

You see? Personally I don't care. There are many things that I agree with or even participate in my personal life that are not acceptable in my online BUSINESS. If you can understand the difference, you can retract your insulting, rude, and downright incorrect personal comments about me, which like most everything else you have posted about me have been totally wrong.

I take serious personal offence at your comments.

Alex

[fetish1]

UP DATE attorney interview on Ynot.
http://www.ynot.com/index.php


I guess I am confused, I saw very little (if any...although that certainly doesn't mean I couldn't have missed it) about selling homemade videos on the website as this paragraph from that interview states, but I did see selling packages of time for bdsm services, which the article does not mention.

" Michelle thought that things were starting to settle down in her life. She was getting her finances in order and had found that selling home-made bondage videos through her website provided her with the economic independence she needed to accomplish her goals. She had her professional ducks in a row and was preparing for a successful and satisfying future.
"
|huh

[furrygirl]

Alex, either back up your "business standpoint" claims or shut up, I'm sick of hearing you state your own personal conservatism as an irrefutable fact of the entire adult business. You have no idea what you're talking about, and can't find a single example or legal case to try and prove your point.

Show me *one* case where an adult site was prosecuted for blood content (not presented as a part of a greater BDSM/violent context). I don't doubt that it *could* potentially happen, but you act like it happens so constantly that it's become common knowledge on par with not not promoting raping animals. (Always nice to see menstruation listed alongside bestiality, though.)

News to Alex: I didn't invent menstruation. There have been period-focussed sites online for *at least* 4 years, and many more with quiet red content, and I think we all would have noticed if one of them had caused the downfall of the entire adult industry.

It's fine for you to play it safe with your own business, but stop claiming that your personal fears and insecurities should dictate what *I* am allowed to do with my time.

[Chop Smith]

Excuse me...

Has anyone been able to find any coverage of this in the Enfield, CT news medias? I have googled a couple a times since this thread started and have not found any.

Now, back to the secondary discussion - "Why Alex sucks because Visa/MC will not process sites with 'red' content."

[Linkster]

Im gonna butt in here for a sec - and only because I tend to be a little more liberal on issues - I think that a good reference point for everyone that is not familiar with the history of what furrygirl is doing here - http://www4.ncsu.edu/~n51ls801/period.html
is an excellent link to read and get some background.

I will not interject my personal feelings as they do not play in this whatsoever - I think that the whole discussion (no matter how much personal feelings have been jutted in) comes down to a battle between what some think that WMs have the right to publish and promote - vs - the effects of promoting those same ideas/fetishes/etc.

Unfortunately, the two are not opposing viewpoints although they are the talking points that have been taken in this thread.

I believe that both parties really do agree on the moral issue and the freedom of speech/publishing rights issues.

The finer point of the biz issue is really where the contention lies - and should be discussed - I think that both sides have the same outlook personally on freedoms and their sanctity.
This then boils down to one side discussing the effect of "promoting a fetish and the repurcussions on the whole industry" and the other side basing the discussion as if there is no effect and these two basis of thought aren't opposing thoughts - they are completely different basis.

[Chop Smith]

Linkster, quite a diplomatic reach you made here. After reading that article I am off to find some good redneck jokes.

[Linkster]

I am off to find some good red neck jokes.

Be very careful - very!!

[MadMax]

Linkster, quite a diplomatic reach you made here. After reading that article I am off to find some good redneck jokes.


If I can get in there up to my neck I don't want any |shocking|

:D

Seriously though, well put Linkster :)

[RawAlex]

Furrygirl, I have been in this business since long before you could legally even think about it. "Business standpoint" is simple: 10 years ago anyone could get processing for anything at any time with little or no requirements no checking. People abused it, and over time, the restrictions on processing got tighter and tighter.

Right now, processing is damn tight (to the point where IMHO it artificially limits the total potential revenue in the industry right now).

The CC companies have set rules with the processors for what they can and cannot process.

Asking for that coverage to be exanded is going against the trend that has been going on for ten years, and is (IMHO) not very likely to have much success. More importantly, considering how little V&MC really thinks about our industry (we are a drop in the bucket for them), asking them for more open space is, IMHO, just a likely to get the opposite result, where some of the more "out there" but currently acceptable things that you site as examples get shut out too.

V&MC can do that in a blink without as much as an explanation.

What do you think the true revenue would be for these sites? Do you think there is 5000 signups a month @ $35 to be made here? Or is it more likely that the niche would attract a few hundred long term loyal members?

If the members are loyal like that, why not just accept money orders or something? Make 1 year memberships, and see how many members you can get.

I don't deny you the right to run the sites, but I understand and accept that V&MC has no interest in processing for them anymore. They have made a business decision. You may not like the decision, but there it is.

Now, on another subject, Furrygirl, I am very very personally insulted by some of the comments you have made about me here. You have spread lies, falsehoods, and made totally misleading statements about me. I look forward to a full and complete apology for them.

Alex

[furrygirl]

Now, on another subject, Furrygirl, I am very very personally insulted by some of the comments you have made about me here. You have spread lies, falsehoods, and made totally misleading statements about me. I look forward to a full and complete apology for them.Good luck waiting for that. You've been nothing but a condescending misogynist prick to both myself and Trixie throughout both of these theads, but thanks for giving me a laugh.

I couldn't care less if you're older than me, and if harping on your age is the best you can do to prove your point and address all my questions, you're not worth talking to. I prefer to debate with intelligent people who have actual evidence to back up their arguments, but you can't even do that. *All* your arguments rest on hysteria and "everyone knows". If I wanted more of that line of debate, I'd go pick fights with creationists or people who protest abortion clinics.

[furrygirl]

Im gonna butt in here for a sec - and only because I tend to be a little more liberal on issues - I think that a good reference point for everyone that is not familiar with the history of what furrygirl is doing here - http://www4.ncsu.edu/~n51ls801/period.html
is an excellent link to read and get some background.I saw that one a while ago, and while it's a decent read for people new to the subject, but I found it to be too much like a poorly-strung-together freshman psych term paper, even though he's aparently an associate professor of philosophy. I think it's important to point out that it is written by a male who is not in the adult industry.

Trixie actually wrote a piece from the perspective in a menstruating pornographer in the latest $pread Magazine (http://www.spreadmagazine.org/). I know she and I both want people to support the new publication, but I'll ask and see if she wants to share the scanned story here.

[Tommy]

Good luck waiting for that. You've been nothing but a condescending misogynist prick to both myself and Trixie throughout both of these theads, but thanks for giving me a laugh.

I couldn't care less if you're older than me, and if harping on your age is the best you can do to prove your point and address all my questions, you're not worth talking to. I prefer to debate with intelligent people who have actual evidence to back up their arguments, but you can't even do that. *All* your arguments rest on hysteria and "everyone knows". If I wanted more of that line of debate, I'd go pick fights with creationists or people who protest abortion clinics.


*You've been nothing but a condescending misogynist prick

*I prefer to debate with intelligent people

*you're not worth talking to

ohh yeah....... he's the condescending prick

[RawAlex]

Furrygirl, your insults don't go very far.

One question: Is the address on your domains names valid?

Alex

[furrygirl]

Aww, it wittle Alex all sad that someone on the playground called him a stupid-head?

Good luck suing me. If I actually though you were a) worth the effort or b) had any money, I'd have an easier time suing you for defaming my company by repeatedly insinutating that what I do is illegal.

[plateman]

Aww, it wittle Alex all sad that someone on the playground called him a stupid-head?

Good luck suing me. If I actually though you were a) worth the effort or b) had any money, I'd have an easier time suing you for defaming my company by repeatedly insinutating that what I do is illegal.
Maybe he wants to send you a box of kotex and tampons and a fuck you letter... |haha |haha |haha

[cosmiccat]

Waiter....check please!

[DangerDave]

suing you for defaming my company by repeatedly insinutating that what I do is illegal. Defamation by insinuation - Hahahaha thats a good one...

My sig has more legal standing.. |pokefun|

DD

[plateman]

you know it is getting close to christmas, maybe I send present on for you, you perfer mini or maxi?

[Tommy]

I really doubt he was intending on suing you

[Wazza]

I'd hit it |boobies|

[plateman]

wazza you might end up with what they call a "red rooster"

|thumb

[Chop Smith]

I really doubt he was intending on suing you
:D When I piss someone off and they ask for my address, I don't look for a court summons. I lock my doors because an ass whoppin' is usually on its way.

[natalie]

wazza you might end up with what they call a "red rooster"

|thumb

Heheh over here we have the term "dolmio grin"... Dave and Wazza should know it but the rest of you will have to work it out :P

[RawAlex]

Furrygirl, I asked mostly because I was trying to figure out how you fit your entire office into a box at the UPS store. Do you keep the same hours as a store for 2257 inspections and things like that?

You know what? Bring it on, please. I would LOVE for you to sue me. Come on. I DARE YOU.

Alex

[Wazza]

mmmmmmmmmmm Red Rooster!

might be best if you type this one in lol

redrooster dot com dot au

:D

Ummm Natalie - it's called blowjob week for a reason - did they teach you nothing in school? |jester|

[Halfdeck]

:D When I piss someone off and they ask for my address, I don't look for a court summons. I lock my doors because an ass whoppin' is usually on its way.

Hmmm...is someone insinuating RawAlex's the type to stalk and beat up women in his spare time when he gets his panties in a twist? |shocking|

[Chop Smith]

An Australian slang for the result of performing oral sex on a woman during menstration. I just wanted to be sure that I was correct, Natalie.

Halfdeck, I am not insinuating anything. It was just a useless post as most in this thread. About as useless as you insinuating that Alex wears panties.

Since you are from CT, can you answer if there has been any local new coverage on what this thread was suppose to be about?

[Cleo]

Would you like some fries to go with that ketchup?

[Wazza]

And for those of you playing along at home...

dolmio dot com dot au

[Tommy]

Furrygirl, I asked mostly because I was trying to figure out how you fit your entire office into a box at the UPS store. Do you keep the same hours as a store for 2257 inspections and things like that?

You know what? Bring it on, please. I would LOVE for you to sue me. Come on. I DARE YOU.

Alex


YEAH Bring it on !!!!, I dare you to sue him

anyway I doubt you would have much of a case if any

[ponygirl]

gosh...who would've thought I'd be learning so much about international trade?? :D

ps Cleo, I gotta say your avitar really freaks me out :D

[Halfdeck]

Since you are from CT, can you answer if there has been any local new coverage on what this thread was suppose to be about?

Wasn't this thread about red roosters?

I've seen nothing on the local news about this case so far; all I can say is I know some cops in CT overuse their brains and assume guilty until proven innocent. They and George Bush have alot in common in terms of "jumping the gun."

[babymaker]

Hey, furry girl Aebn is doing period porn now so I guess find out who proccesses for them and your all set.

http://galleries.aebn.net/beta3/index.cfm/fa/gallery/genre/menstrual/clip/0004/refid/AEBN-013487/tid/24435/layout/mgp_layout2.cfm

[Chop Smith]

:D
...I've seen nothing on the local news about this case so far; all I can say is I know some cops in CT overuse their brains and assume guilty until proven innocent...
So cops in CT have brains? I think the abuse of power is universal.

I have been curious about the news coverage because thus far we only have one side of the story. Frankly, there seems to be several missing links in webwoman's account. Of course, I also slant my stories.

[docholly]

Wasn't this thread about red roosters?


nope it was hi-jacked. |santa|

[RawAlex]

Chop, you missed it all.. see, the cops are MEN... and it is the grand men's conspiracy to put women down, to keep them down, and to stop them from doing what they like.

Yeesh.

When I read the article in Ynot, I found that there was much missing from the whole discussion, such as issues of complete disclosure, zoning, and maybe anything else out there that may have affected the situation. Basically, the story as written was basically a nice version of the very first post in this thread.

Very one sided, and very much without explaination or information past that initial bit of information. It truly read like a press release.

I hope there is more information out there one day for us to understand all that went into this situation.

Alex

[furrygirl]

you know it is getting close to christmas, maybe I send present on for you, you perfer mini or maxi?I don't use *any* of that cheap plastic crap that makes your crotch reek like death and cheap perfume. If you want to send a present, I can always use another organic undyed cotton Glad Rag (http://www.gladrags.com/organic-undyed-1pack-p-29.html), since I already own a cup. |santa|


Babymaker: Interesting, I wonder if AEBN really knows about it? I don't really know how they operate. I see period content on a regular basis using a big biller, but I don't go asking about it, since I understand the first rule of the playground: nobody likes a snitch. (Although it is *terribly temping* to back-sass one snobby biller who has told me I'm disgusted by pointing out that one of their big clients advertises period content on their tour.) Thanks for pointing that out!

Also, I wonder if it has actual "blood"? There are tampon strings on one of those starving-eastern-bloc-girls "art" sites like Met or Hegre, but no blood. Plus, the vast majory of period content out there is *really* poorly faked with pink punch, bbq sauce, food coloring, etc. (I assume that's how they get around some of the issues, although Torn & Katvixen had to lose a Halloween set to CCBill because of fake blood.) Here are a couple galleries I came across recently: http://galleries.menstruationsluts.com/ms2411/period-porn.html & http://galleries.menstruationsluts.com/ms1975/period-porn.html Ahh, good times! :)

[GonZo]

I don't use *any* of that cheap plastic crap that makes your crotch reek like death and cheap perfume. If you want to send a present, I can always use another organic undyed cotton Glad Rag (http://www.gladrags.com/organic-undyed-1pack-p-29.html), since I already own a cup. |santa|


Babymaker: Interesting, I wonder if AEBN really knows about it? I don't really know how they operate. I see period content on a regular basis using a big biller, but I don't go asking about it, since I understand the first rule of the playground: nobody likes a snitch. (Although it is *terribly temping* to back-sass one snobby biller who has told me I'm disgusted by pointing out that one of their big clients advertises period content on their tour.) Thanks for pointing that out!

Also, I wonder if it has actual "blood"? There are tampon strings on one of those starving-eastern-bloc-girls "art" sites like Met or Hegre, but no blood. Plus, the vast majory of period content out there is *really* poorly faked with pink punch, bbq sauce, food coloring, etc. (I assume that's how they get around some of the issues, although Torn & Katvixen had to lose a Halloween set to CCBill because of fake blood.) Here are a couple galleries I came across recently: http://galleries.menstruationsluts.com/ms2411/period-porn.html & http://galleries.menstruationsluts.com/ms1975/period-porn.html Ahh, good times! :)
Trust me if the content is encoded and up on the AEBN site for streamng they know about it. THey have about 10 guys that do nothing but watch porn all day long.

Ive been asking them to open an Atlanta office for a year an a half now!

[babymaker]

They know, since i found out in an email yesterday annpuncing the new categories available. Going to add the galleries tonight :D menstrationsluts is good but no sales think it's a scam.

[furrygirl]

Trust me if the content is encoded and up on the AEBN site for streamng they know about it. THey have about 10 guys that do nothing but watch porn all day long.

Ive been asking them to open an Atlanta office for a year an a half now!In looking around, they have 13 other menstruation videos, in their own category under fetish and niches. Very cool that such a big company has red content.

I hope that everyone attacking me over my own blood content immediately launches a campaign about how AEBN is destroying the industry, too. AEBN is trying to drive us all out of business! They're evil! They're obscene! They deserve to be in jail! |loony| Haha.

[furrygirl]

They know, since i found out in an email yesterday annpuncing the new categories available. Going to add the galleries tonight :D menstrationsluts is good but no sales think it's a scam.Menstruation Sluts is a truly lousy site, it's all cheap fakes, tired-looking content, and completely unrealistic situations, like the girls eating fake-blood covered tampons wirth a knife and fork. But, it seems to the biggest period player out there at the moment. I can't imagine any guy who's actually been with a girl on the rag would be swayed to whip out his credit card by those painfully obvious special effects. It feels very insulting to the customer, and I respect my customers enough to provide what I claim to provide.

[RawAlex]

In looking around, they have 13 other menstruation videos, in their own category under fetish and niches. Very cool that such a big company has red content.

I hope that everyone attacking me over my own blood content immediately launches a campaign about how AEBN is destroying the industry, too. AEBN is trying to drive us all out of business! They're evil! They're obscene! They deserve to be in jail! |loony| Haha.


They are big enough to take the risk, or they have legal advise that says they can get away with it. With a site that large, I am sure the processor(s) are not entirely aware of the content. I am still trying to figure out why you didn't feel the urge to get mad at the processors that wouldn't give you processing but will process for them.

Must be a bunch of men discriminating against you again. |dizzy|

Alex

[Bare]

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/5443420/detail.html?subid=22100444&qs=1;bp=t sorta on the original topic. This story (and the back stories with it at the bottom) sound like this case.

[webwoman]

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-enfraid1216.artdec16,0,4809501.story