shave me

[smoo]

ok, is there a program out there where shaving does not occur. seriously.

[Fonz]

http://hairy.amkingdom.com/02/ |couch|

sorry, couldn't resist :)

[Jim]

Fonz, you know better :)
You would actually be surprised how few sponsors actually shave. Feel free to use any listing on this site if you are worried.

[Platinum Bryan]

We don't shave, so hit me up if you're interested in using a sponsor that does not shave!!

[Allfetish]

I can't say for sure, but I seriously doubt cybernetbucks.com shaves. I've had great experience with them. I'm sure there are many honest ones out there that value their name and reputation long term.

[Ms Naughty]

If there's a shaving command in the ccbill admin, I'm buggered if I can find it LOL

That doesn't read like a very professional sponsor-type statement, does it?

Perhaps I should rephrase it and say: We here at Purple Dollars are fine upstanding members of the webmaster community and would never cheat our webmasters because:
a. We're too nice for that sort of shenanigans,
b. Our processor does not allow us to shave :D

[cybersexhound]

what does "shaving" mean?

[Ramster]

Shaving is when sponsors do not count all sales. So you made 4 sales but they only show 3 and pay you for 3 only. The thing is contrary to popular belief shaving is VERY rare.

Really when you think about it. If a program got caught shaving (it has happened) they would be done in this biz. Is it worth it? Losing everything to make a little extra money? I can't how it would be.

[Linkster]

what does "shaving" mean?

its when you get a little older and you get hair growing on your face you have to buy a razor and some foamy cream and cut the hairs off :)


sorry couldnt resist

[cybersexhound]

its when you get a little older and you get hair growing on your face you have to buy a razor and some foamy cream and cut the hairs off :)


sorry couldnt resist


I can only pray Ill never have hairs on my face! or hanging out of my ears growing out of my eyebrows or anything like that. (then Id never get laid!)

[smutranger]

I've known some people in this industry who swear up and down that shaving happens, happens often and you gotta live with it. I've never seen any proof though myself.

[khs]

what about the scrub?

[SirMoby]

what about the scrub?
That's not shaving and is not controlled by the pay sites. Scrubbing is done by the credit card processors.

Every CC transaction comes with some risk because after approval the card owner can deny the charge (sometimes for valid reasons sometimes not). Each week, month, quarter, etc. the processor can only take on so much risk for rejected transactions. If during one of those periods they have a high number of bad transactions they have to be more careful and start scrutinizing each transaction a bit more. When this happens they start denying a higher percentage of perfectly good transactions.

This process is known as scrubbing and it is controlled only by the the processing companies and the credit card companies.

Program owners have no control or even influence over scrubbing.

[SirMoby]

Most accusations about shaving based on conversions simply don't have enough data points to be statistically valid. There's just way too many variables involved that people forget about.

[Useless]

I usually shave, then scrub. Shaving in itself won't make those pesky buggers go away. I'm itchy just thinking about it.

[Cleo]

I only shave my feet, especially their soles, so that my steel toed construction boots are more comfortable to dance in.

[Sexvilly]

if you are too fanatic about shaving, I would go for the 3rd party between you and the sponsor -> use CCbill sponsors, VXS, Paycom, etc.

[lassiter]

Fonz, you know better :)
Feel free to use any listing on this site if you are worried.

I'm rather less than 100% convinced of that but in the absence of clear proof, I'll abstain from pointing specific fingers.

BUT... the shaving (in general, not talking about specific sponsors - yet) isn't always found on the sales side, but with actual hits to FHGs themselves. The best way to determine this is by clearing your browser cache, and then clicking through to tours and signup pages from your own FHGs. (Use FHGs for sites you don't have actually listed anywhere and just add your affiliate code to 'em so you'll know it was your clicks). You'd be surprised at the number of sponsors that simply don't count the hits at all, which leads to the suspicion that they wouldn't count the sale either if there was one. It's certainly not true of all sponsors, but I'd guess that at least 50% of 'em shave some tour hits.

[DollarManSteve]

BUT... the shaving (in general, not talking about specific sponsors - yet) isn't always found on the sales side, but with actual hits to FHGs themselves. The best way to determine this is by clearing your browser cache, and then clicking through to tours and signup pages from your own FHGs. (Use FHGs for sites you don't have actually listed anywhere and just add your affiliate code to 'em so you'll know it was your clicks). You'd be surprised at the number of sponsors that simply don't count the hits at all, which leads to the suspicion that they wouldn't count the sale either if there was one. It's certainly not true of all sponsors, but I'd guess that at least 50% of 'em shave some tour hits.

This isnt 'shaving' as defined and accepted by the majority of webmasters. Different programs count uniques in different ways - some Raw, some 1st page, 2nd page, join page, etc with different criteria. For example, we count only 24 hour rolling unique IPs to the front end. So, what appears as 'shaving uniques' is most often a case of not counting raw hits. Does this affect ratios? Yes, but it is a more clear indication of efficiency since it reflects (within the limitations of IPs) how many unique individuals visit a site in a given 24 hour period and subsequently join.

In your case above, if the sponsor didnt count raw hits to the gallery, visiting the gallery yourself over and over within a certain time period would only count 1 unique - which is completely reflective of the reality.

[RawAlex]

If there's a shaving command in the ccbill admin, I'm buggered if I can find it LOL

That doesn't read like a very professional sponsor-type statement, does it?

Perhaps I should rephrase it and say: We here at Purple Dollars are fine upstanding members of the webmaster community and would never cheat our webmasters because:
a. We're too nice for that sort of shenanigans,
b. Our processor does not allow us to shave :D


You can shave with a CCBILL program as easy as any other program you like... it's not difficult at all. Slow down and think for a minute how it works, and what potential there is, and you will see... it would not be hard for a sponsor to shave any percentage they like off of CCBill sites.

The method got explained to me about 3 or 4 years ago, and to my knowledge, has not been fixed because it cannot be fixed.

Alex

[RawAlex]

As for shaving in general, it happens at many points along the process and for different reasons.

"pure" shaving is just not creditting sales to your account. 1 for me, 1 for you... A program paying $30 a sale underreporting by 10% would certain see a big difference in their bottom line for operations.

Some programs also shave certain types of sales (backup processors, check sales, or whatever) as a known part of their program. In reality this is not a shave, just part of the terms and conditions you might not have read.

Some programs "shave" by putting links off their tour pages that don't pay you, or collect email addresses or whatever without paying you for the surfer. This is becoming less of an issue as mail programs have sort of died out due to can-spam rules.

The current shaving I see the most is "hit shaving" and "conversion improvement" shaving. Counting only 2nd page, join page, or similar hits and then reporting your sales ratios based on this. I track every single hit I send to sponsors, and I can tell you some of them don't count for shit, often requiring the surfer to go 2 or more pages into a tour to count as a hit. I think programs do this mostly to make their sales rations look better than they would otherwise. Most major programs these days will display sales based on unique clicks rather than raw clicks.

The other current popular shave is the "foreign traffic skim". Basically, surfers from certain countries never even make it to the tour, and are instead redirected to console hell, dialer downloads, or fluffed off to traffic trades. You get no credit for the hit, no chance to make the sale,and no benefit from the surfer. This is the hardest skim of all to keep track of, because you would have to spoof IP and other variables to see the end results. Programs like SPAcash openly redirect surfers based on IP to different tours, it isn't hard to picture programs using similar technology to other ends (and note, this isn't a comment on SPACash... I don't like their geo stuff, but I don't even suggest that they skim or do anything of the like... they are an honest program based on what I know!).

Good luck....

Alex

[plateman]

I think sponsors shave, they gotta shave a PPS program, what happens when most of the sales for a month or 2 are all 4.95 trials and hardly any convert to a full sale ? would you want all your money you had saved up to be gone..

Plus greed has to come in, and as mentioned if they only shave 10% of sales, thats a lot of money in a month..

plus now think about it, say you had a program and if you shaved a little a month you could make 10k more a month and if you didnt shave you only make 6k a month being honest... Thats a hell of a lot of temptation.. right ?

the thing is nobody can or will prove that a sponsor is shaving from a webmaster side of things..

So another question how many program workers have ever left a program on bad terms and showed the webmaster public that they shaved with proof...

So really I think very few sponsors shave sales because the risk is to high..

[lassiter]

In your case above, if the sponsor didnt count raw hits to the gallery, visiting the gallery yourself over and over within a certain time period would only count 1 unique - which is completely reflective of the reality.

I'm talking about clearing all cookies and caches, then sending 1 hit to a specific site, clicked though all the way to the signup page. 24 hours later, these sponsors would still show zero hits for that day for that site. A fairly common occurance by my experimentation.

[Maj. Stress]

I think sponsors shave, they gotta shave a PPS program, what happens when most of the sales for a month or 2 are all 4.95 trials and hardly any convert to a full sale ? would you want all your money you had saved up to be gone..

I'm sure some sponsors do shave. I've seen them openly admit it on another board a few years ago.
A good sponsor really does not have to shave if they are smart. I'm not that brilliant and do not run a paysite but I do see some moneymaking opportunities that they have to increase their bottom line. Upsells inside the member area.
Offering bonus sites when a member wants to cancel their membership.
Offering a bonus site for a single $ on initial sign up that rebills full price.
The obvious: console sales

I'm sure there are hundreds of hooks I have not even imagined.

With the cc processing the way it is nowadays you do have to wonder wtf is going on sometimes tho.....

[RawAlex]

lassiter, the "unique" visit isn't usually measured by your cookie, but often by IP address or other information to track apparent individuals. Merely clearing your cache and your cookie will not always create a unique impression.

Alex

[lassiter]

lassiter, the "unique" visit isn't usually measured by your cookie, but often by IP address or other information to track apparent individuals. Merely clearing your cache and your cookie will not always create a unique impression.

Alex

Yes, I see your point. I'd just add that in many cases there are both "raw" and "unique" columns on the stats page, and the tour/signup page hits don't show up in the "raw" columns either.

[Linkster]

First - as far as the definition of shaving - Steve has a good point that what most of us from the "old school" would consider shaving is very possibly different than what someone newer to the biz might think is a shave
A real good example is what a "newer" Wm confronted me with at a show - he said that while the sponsor was tracking hits to the site ok, and paying him for signups to that site just fine - he wasnt getting a cut on the sales generated from the little checkbox on the join form that sponsors use (usually pre-checked and known as a cross-sale).
And of course the sponsor had in black and white in their terms and conditions that they did not pay their affiliates for these sales - which I wouldnt expect them to knowing that this where sponsors get a good percentage of their overhead taken care of - it just baffled the WM though

As far as CCBill - there are quite a few programs out there that rely on the fact that since they are using a middleman you will expect things to be on the up and up - something I learned from another WM here - that I should have known but didnt take the time to look at - was that each sponsor can set the number of rebills that get credited to the refferring WM and how much gets credited over time - although you would think that programs advertising rebills at 60% would pay that for the life of the surfer - it might be worthwhile checking that in your ccbill stats to see how long you really get rebills for - I was amazed to see one program had it set for 1 rebill and another that had it set for no rebills.

As Alex also pointed out - it really doesnt matter whether a program uses CCbill or any other software out there - and I dont care what any rep or even owner of an affiliate software company says - if a sponsor "wants" to shave - they can - just depends on how much they are willing to spend towards accomplishing that shave.

[PR_Tom]

With us, if an affiliates trial to full member conversion is truly terrible, we kick them to revshare only to spread the risk.

[Ms Naughty]

each sponsor can set the number of rebills that get credited to the refferring WM and how much gets credited over time

Well there you go, you learn something new every day! Well, I'll just go and adjust that, shall I...

Ooh, did I say that out loud?

:D

We don't shave. We're nice. Our rebills, like diamonds, are forever.

Damn, I should be in advertising.

|bananna|

[Nasty Lidya]

The only thing I shave is my pussy ;)

[furrygirl]

The only thing I shave is my pussy ;)And I don't. SIG POST! SIG POST! Promote me!

[Righteous]

It all adds up.

Say a program with 10 sites gets 100 sales.

90 @ 4.95 = 445.50
10 @ 29.95 = 299.50

for a total of 745.00

If 90% are pps @ 30.00 they payout 2,700.00, which is a big nut to crack along with paying for updates and payroll, hosting, promotion...etc.

Of course they get conversions and rebills and some income from exit traffic.

[Far-L]

Programs can also "shave" through issuing false credits that appear to rescind an otherwise seemingly legit sale.

This falls under the "one for you, one for me, two for you and one two for me" method of shaving.

Third party processors like CCbill, or DHD - who we use - have a strong incentive to prevent shaving of this sort since they make more money on the affiliate webmaster earning their fair share.

Any program worth its weight in honesty - (cough cough, ahem, like us) - would allow affiliates to conduct audits of their system. If you want to find out if your program is shaving or not then see what happens when you ask to see the books.

I believe unfortunately that shaving is a lot more prevelant than many folks realize.

[Far-L]

First - as far as the definition of shaving - Steve has a good point that what most of us from the "old school" would consider shaving is very possibly different than what someone newer to the biz might think is a shave
A real good example is what a "newer" Wm confronted me with at a show - he said that while the sponsor was tracking hits to the site ok, and paying him for signups to that site just fine - he wasnt getting a cut on the sales generated from the little checkbox on the join form that sponsors use (usually pre-checked and known as a cross-sale).
And of course the sponsor had in black and white in their terms and conditions that they did not pay their affiliates for these sales - which I wouldnt expect them to knowing that this where sponsors get a good percentage of their overhead taken care of - it just baffled the WM though

As far as CCBill - there are quite a few programs out there that rely on the fact that since they are using a middleman you will expect things to be on the up and up - something I learned from another WM here - that I should have known but didnt take the time to look at - was that each sponsor can set the number of rebills that get credited to the refferring WM and how much gets credited over time - although you would think that programs advertising rebills at 60% would pay that for the life of the surfer - it might be worthwhile checking that in your ccbill stats to see how long you really get rebills for - I was amazed to see one program had it set for 1 rebill and another that had it set for no rebills.

As Alex also pointed out - it really doesnt matter whether a program uses CCbill or any other software out there - and I dont care what any rep or even owner of an affiliate software company says - if a sponsor "wants" to shave - they can - just depends on how much they are willing to spend towards accomplishing that shave.

I agree but usually I think these have more to do with webmasters not reading the terms and conditions closely enough. Certainly if the sponsor says how or if they pay on rebills and/or cross sells should be clearly laid out. Only if it is not spelled out and the sponsor is taking advantage of those rev streams would I consider it shaving - and by that I mean in the classic, as in old school, sense of the term as well.

[Jakudza]

true revshare program will set cookies to unlimited time.. so even if your surfer visit site directly after a year you will get credit..

most of pps sponsers dont sent cookies at all.. or set it maybe for real short period of time..

this means you will never get credit for sales which happen next day after 1st click etc etc.. so i guess they get lots of "direct" sales.

and dont forget about upsells etc ;)

there's a lot of ways to make money on your surfers.

sponsor will never pay more then what he earns himself ;)

[Tommy]

Aww cmon

don't be such Sheep

they all shave, think about how easy it is
you check your stats they grab your ip which comes from some Isp in Texas

so they know they are safe keeping all traffic from New Jersey or Germany

think about it... if your making 2000 dollars a month and they shave you 20%
that's 400 dollars a month
that's a BMW

do you think they are gonna give that up for someone they don't know

They are gonna think everyone else is doing it and they have to stay competitive

and how many afflilates are probably cheating them

[MrYum]

Aww cmon

don't be such Sheep

they all shave, think about how easy it is
you check your stats they grab your ip which comes from some Isp in Texas

so they know they are safe keeping all traffic from New Jersey or Germany

think about it... if your making 2000 dollars a month and they shave you 20%
that's 400 dollars a month
that's a BMW

do you think they are gonna give that up for someone they don't know

They are gonna think everyone else is doing it and they have to stay competitive

and how many afflilates are probably cheating them
Ding...ding...ding!

We have a WINNER! :D

[tickler]

true revshare program will set cookies to unlimited time.. so even if your surfer visit site directly after a year you will get credit..

most of pps sponsers dont sent cookies at all.. or set it maybe for real short period of time..

this means you will never get credit for sales which happen next day after 1st click etc etc.. so i guess they get lots of "direct" sales.
Most major PPS sponsors use PHP session tracking which works a whole lot better than cookie tracking. There are too many cookie blocking systems out there now.

Also if I send the same surfer to the paysite a few days after you and they signup, I figure that I was the one who actually convinced them and should get credit. Otherwise the major traffic pumps like AL4a, World Sex, The Hun could set a gadzillion permanent cookies and nobody would get credit.

[Far-L]

Aww cmon

don't be such Sheep

they all shave, think about how easy it is
you check your stats they grab your ip which comes from some Isp in Texas

so they know they are safe keeping all traffic from New Jersey or Germany

think about it... if your making 2000 dollars a month and they shave you 20%
that's 400 dollars a month
that's a BMW

do you think they are gonna give that up for someone they don't know

They are gonna think everyone else is doing it and they have to stay competitive

and how many afflilates are probably cheating them

That is absurd. Go back to GFY where they will give you a tinfoil hat for free.

[DollarManSteve]

Aww cmon

don't be such Sheep

they all shave, think about how easy it is
you check your stats they grab your ip which comes from some Isp in Texas

so they know they are safe keeping all traffic from New Jersey or Germany

think about it... if your making 2000 dollars a month and they shave you 20%
that's 400 dollars a month
that's a BMW

do you think they are gonna give that up for someone they don't know

They are gonna think everyone else is doing it and they have to stay competitive

and how many afflilates are probably cheating them

LOL. You think its worth the risk for $400? Why would any program shave some little affiliate who sends 75 joins a month and risk your company's credibility and lose the guy who sends you 2500 joins a month?!??

Large programs think in terms of hundreds of thousands of dollars per month.. not pocket change, and you dont risk a business of that scale by knowingly defrauding your affiliates.

[SirMoby]

if a sponsor "wants" to shave - they can
Unfortunately this is the most accurate statement in this thread. I've yet to touch anything on NATS because of thier claim that it's impossible to shave using NATS. They make that statement either because they don't understand or they think we're idiots.

However, that being said, a good program can make plenty of money without shaving and possibly a lot more because they can get more webmasters interested.

[Tommy]

LOL. You think its worth the risk for $400? Why would any program shave some little affiliate who sends 75 joins a month and risk your company's credibility and lose the guy who sends you 2500 joins a month?!??

Large programs think in terms of hundreds of thousands of dollars per month.. not pocket change, and you dont risk a business of that scale by knowingly defrauding your affiliates.

Ohh please..
no offense Steve but

1) its not chump change 20% times thousands of afflitates is HUGE MONEY
Hundreds of thousands of dollars per year

2) the sponsors dont think they will get caught, Nobody ever thinks they are gonna get caught

3) the whole industry is setup to protect cheating sponsors, thats why they keep telling you.... settle it in email and not to take it to the boards blah blah blah

4)with the ip redirecting this stuff is very hard to catch

[Far-L]

Ohh please..
no offense Steve but

1) its not chump change 20% times thousands of afflitates is HUGE MONEY
Hundreds of thousands of dollars per year

2) the sponsors dont think they will get caught, Nobody ever thinks they are gonna get caught

3) the whole industry is setup to protect cheating sponsors, thats why they keep telling you.... settle it in email and not to take it to the boards blah blah blah

4)with the ip redirecting this stuff is very hard to catch

Actually an IP redirect would be one of the easiest things to catch. But I do agree with the other aspect of what you are saying which is that big companies can use attorneys to try and keep a person quiet - through law suits and/or settlements.

I have first hand knowledge of that being the case...

;)

[DollarManSteve]

Ohh please..
no offense Steve but

1) its not chump change 20% times thousands of afflitates is HUGE MONEY
Hundreds of thousands of dollars per year


Doing this to thousands of affiliates only increases the risk exponentially thus making it even more irrational.


3) the whole industry is setup to protect cheating sponsors, thats why they keep telling you.... settle it in email and not to take it to the boards blah blah blah


Most accusations of shaving are baseless and borderline libelous. It is in the best interest of an affiliate to resolve an issue with the sponsor before resorting to a public forum. This is common sense.


4)with the ip redirecting this stuff is very hard to catch

This is a postdicitive conspiracy theory type statement. For example, someone suspects a sponsor is shaving, has no proof or evidence and then resorts to an explanation which can also not be proved and then says 'now prove to ME you arent shaving since you might be doing this'. This is the same logic conspiracy theorists base their arguments on - unproveable postdictive speculations.

[Wazza]

Someone from PIBCash will be with you momentarily...

As a wise man once told me - unless you hack your way in and prove that they're not shaving you, they are...

[lassiter]

For example, someone suspects a sponsor is shaving, has no proof or evidence and then resorts to an explanation which can also not be proved and then says 'now prove to ME you arent shaving since you might be doing this'. This is the same logic conspiracy theorists base their arguments on - unproveable postdictive speculations.

Note that I'm not drawing conclusions about any particular sponsor here, only engaging in speculative debate, so...

I think your argument could go either way. If, as you say, accusations of shaving generally can't be proven, then it seems utterly illogical for a sponsor NOT to shave, since shaving clearly has a major positive impact on sponsor revenue, and cannot be proven absolutely from outside - only inferred by, as you say, "unproveable postdictive speculation."

"OK, guys, we can make a lot more money by shaving in ways that can't be proven and can simply be denied, or we can engage in 'ethics' and lose out on all the extra revenue." What do you think Mr. Trump would choose? How about Sony? Halliburton?

[Mr. Blue]

the whole industry is setup to protect cheating sponsors, thats why they keep telling you.... settle it in email and not to take it to the boards blah blah blah

This is completely true.

I haven't been around as long as some, but I've run businesses for most of my adult life. I've never seen an industry so willing to protect cheaters.

If someone complains on a board about a sponsor...what happens to them? They usually get feasted upon by any number of sources that all have a vested interest in keeping the cheating sponsor afloat.

Now, ask yourself these questions:

1. If I were a dishonest sponsor who would I shave?

If I were a dishonest sponsor I would shave the small and the mid-sized affiliates. I would make sure that the big named reputation players never got shaved and got as many bonuses as possible.

2. How would I make sure that all complaints got shot down immediately in the most vicious manner possible?

If Dinkus McFarland, small time affiliate, dares to complain on a board about a sponsor what happens to him? He's ripped apart mercilessly by the sponsor, ripped apart by the big reputation guys who use the program and don't get shaved because they're a big name. Ripped apart by forum whores who's posting for points, prizes, etc...all supplied by board sponsors (which in some cases has been the accused sponsor).

After seeing poor Dinkus get ripped apart, getting ostracized, do you think many other small to mid-sized affiliates would complain? Hell no. Whistle blowers in porn usually have the whistle shoved down their throats.

[Linkster]

Halliburton?

Or even Gilead Inc - oh shit - I let that one slip - damn Rumsfeld and his ownership in the company that holds the rights to Tamiflu - the wonder drug for bird flu - hmmm I wonder why Bush is appropriating 7 bill for tamiflu (must not be because Rumsfeld was the CEO until 2001 and still has 25 mill stock options)

[Far-L]

Frankly, from my perspective... such speculative hypothesis to infer a sponsor is cheating is just lame and assuming all sponsors cheat is even lamer.

I don't disagree completely. I know some sponsors cheat... in fact owners of certain programs told me in no uncertain terms that they have been shaving for years. I am not protecting them. I simply don't need another lawsuit right now.

I am involved in a major law suit in which just one of the issues is that we caught them red handed redirecting traffic to another program from our banners. That is a matter of public record. We would like nothing more than to have the suit be continued in a public forum like federal court where all the records would become public domain.

We are an open book. Any time CE wants to lift the gag order on our arbitration proceedings we would be happy to share every single document, taped deposition, anything and everything - thereby letting webmasters decide for themselves who is right or wrong based on the evidence.

The only reason we can do lawsuits like Acacia and CE is because we have nothing to hide and we are quite willing to put ourselves under such scrutiny where our books, software, etc. can become a matter of public record by being in court. We are open to audits. If you think we cheat then come have a look and prove it.

We don't have "friends" that would defend us. We have plenty of enemies that would love for us to be taken apart by such a scandal. Bring it on.

We run an honest program and insinuating that we don't is aggravating but assuming everyone cheats is just plain unreasonable.

|peace|

[Phoenix]

wheeeeeeeeeeeeee

www.adultlounge.com

[Platinum Dave]

actually there are alot of programs that don't shave.

I promise you Platinum Bucks does not shave.

Signup a test webmaster account, do as many transactions as you wish and test us :)

Then let me know what account so at least I don't pay you for test signups LOL!

PLATINUM BUCKS = HONESTY

[RawAlex]

Dave, the question of shaving isn't just a question of 1 signup = 1 pay. There are other ways to shave. Would you also say your program tracks all hits, doesn't geo redirect any surfers, doesn't pop consoles on top of traffic, and those consoles are all 100% to the benefit of the webmaster sending the traffic?

I don't ask this to attack - I truly don't know the answer, so I figued I would ask and see what you have to say... :)

Alex

[Tommy]

Dave also not to attack you but no program in the world is gonna shave a new account

a new affliate is gonna take the tour, look around, check the code on the join page

and they want you to see some dollars, this way you will start putting links and ads everywhere

after a few months when your ads everywhere is when the shave starts

A lot of webmaster will know what i am talking about

they see their sales climb everyweek then after 2 months or so they flatline for a week or 2 then slowly start to decrease

[oil]

|spam|

[Far-L]

Dave, the question of shaving isn't just a question of 1 signup = 1 pay. There are other ways to shave. Would you also say your program tracks all hits, doesn't geo redirect any surfers, doesn't pop consoles on top of traffic, and those consoles are all 100% to the benefit of the webmaster sending the traffic?

I don't ask this to attack - I truly don't know the answer, so I figued I would ask and see what you have to say... :)

Alex

Also (and this is in no way directed to Platinum Bucks either) be sure to include credits refunding without explanation against otherwise valid sales with authorized charges that still mysteriously grant full access to the refunded card...

[Sups]

ccbill sponsors don't shave because they can't... :) but make sure you check the details of the program because some don't pay rebills for life...

Cheers!

[awf]

I dont believe many affiliates shave. It would be the end to them.

If anyone has proof that any shaving goes on i think a topic for that with a sticky should be up..

[Kenny B!]

If you sign up to a program that pays out $35+ per sign up on $1 trials and have their own affiliate back end then it's possible they are shaving, there's no way to know.

Chances are if you're promoting a program that pays rev-share you have much less chance they shave. I could be wrong but when you do the math it only makes sence.