question.......

[stuveltje]

if somebody autosubmit they dont noticed they are on the blacklist of that linksite am i right?

[stuveltje]

Could be an stupid question, but i started to doubt myself after i noticed that some people hanging here on the board are blacklisted for already more then a week, and they submit everyday and they still didnt noticed that they are blacklisted (and yes the blacklist is working) could only mean one thing for me...they are autosubmitting

[stuveltje]

now fuck nobody can answer this one for me???? oke then i know what to do:D and yeah they are not only blacklisted at those *** sites but also at the other i do.....Stu<----getting tired to talk to herself ##@##$$$$

[RawAlex]

Just accept that there are people out there who are using less than honest methods to submit.

That is why most of us don't mention anything when they are blacklisted or blocked. Some people actually just give them the same result page for their submit and don't say a word.

It's all in how you look at it.

[Jel]

Don't know for sure stu but you'd think they would see the 'you are blacklisted page'.

[stuveltje]

Just accept that there are people out there who are using less than honest methods to submit.

That is why most of us don't mention anything when they are blacklisted or blocked. Some people actually just give them the same result page for their submit and don't say a word.

It's all in how you look at it.i know Raw alex,. but i expected some more honesty from free site submitters who hang around here who are fucking blacklisted.....goddamnnnn this makes me in an very very bad mood, not at you raw alex, just the ones who hang around here and ackd like an honest webmaster, :D try this blacklist every submitter you have and i mean all ( and those are alot at some linksite i do) and watch who will responde, so say i blacklisted about 250 people and on this moment after an week only 11 people reponde, thats fucking bad, so it seems some are not like they say they are and i am talking about people who hang around here and at ans..nice..NOT |satan|

[stuveltje]

Don't know for sure stu but you'd think they would see the 'you are blacklisted page'.
hya jel:) well you would think that yes, but believe me they can ask now the ones who submit everyday, they will stay on that fucking blacklist, even if they where the queen lol, and yeah i am in an bad mood doohhhhh |shocking|

[ecchi]

If you have a problem with auto submits and don't want to use a "type this number" type of thing, then change the name of the "title" field occasionally (eg instead of "title" use "title 2" etc.), then set your script to junk all submissions without an entry in that field. You won't even see the auto submissions.

Or if you do not have the ability to change your script, just move the submit page to a different page and put a "click here to submit" button on your old page. "Real" webmasters will see the link and go to the new page, but auto-submitters won't.

[Lemmy]

I recently deleted my blacklist records (I only had about 30 or so) due to innocent submitters being caught in the IP range.

Waddaya know, the second the ban was lifted the same crappy shit started coming again. Apparently these idiots just keep submitting never even knowing they've been BL'd. I ban by domain now.

[ecchi]

You blacklisted entire IPs when one person on that IP is bad ???? Hell I thought that went out somewhere about the time we discovered fire !

The worst part about your situation is that many of your banned submitters will not even have known that they were banned (blanket auto-submit), whereas a lot of honest submitters who got blocked because they share IP's with crooks will be aware that you blocked them, and if their submission did not break your rules and contained a recip, many will have put you on their blacklist as a cheating webmaster.

And the few genuinely cheating webmasters who are aware you banned their IP will have simply switched IP.

[Lemmy]

You blacklisted entire IPs when one person on that IP is bad ???? Hell I thought that went out somewhere about the time we discovered fire !

The worst part about your situation is that many of your banned submitters will not even have known that they were banned (blanket auto-submit), whereas a lot of honest submitters who got blocked because they share IP's with crooks will be aware that you blocked them, and if their submission did not break your rules and contained a recip, many will have put you on their blacklist as a cheating webmaster.

And the few genuinely cheating webmasters who are aware you banned their IP will have simply switched IP.
What can I say, there's a learning curve to running a LL. :D

I'm not too worried about webmasters being unfairly caught up in the mess. The honest ones will no doubt contact me to ask what the deal is (exactly what happened). I guess cheaters are just a part of this business that we'll have to live with.

[ecchi]

RE: "The honest ones will no doubt contact me to ask what the deal is " Not usually, there are so many bad webmasters out there that it is not worth the effort. A few will contact you, some will ignore you, others will just put you on a blacklist. (I was once given the following figures by a webmaster on another board, I have no idea how accurate they are, but no one else on the board contradicted him: For every one person who complain, you can assume ten do not. Nine of these will just never do business with you again, the tenth will tell all his friends that you are a cheater.)

[Linkster]

Thats the nice thing about some LL scripts - once we ban them they still get the "thank you" page so they think it went through - although it really got trashed - and we never have to see it. And believe me there are hundreds of submits that go in the trash every day :)

[ecchi]

Not a good idea. If you ban someone and tell them, at least they know they are banned, even if they don't agree with you or think you are being unfair. But if they put up your recip, get your "thank you" page, but get no traffic back from you, they are automatically going to assume you are a traffic thief and a cheater. And the odds are that they will tell other people this.

[Rick J]

Not a good idea. If you ban someone and tell them, at least they know they are banned, even if they don't agree with you or think you are being unfair. But if they put up your recip, get your "thank you" page, but get no traffic back from you, they are automatically going to assume you are a traffic thief and a cheater. And the odds are that they will tell other people this.
Good point actually.

[Linkster]

ecchi - no disrespect here - but when you have people submitting hundreds of sites a day with an autosubmitter - do you really think that you would have time to send them and email to let them know?
and the argument that anyone is getting backlinks and traffic doesnt fly - but then only LL owners would understand that as we know what really counts towards backlinks and what type of traffic we get from recips - and I can tell you honestly - a submit that is banned here is probably banned everywhere - so backlinks dont count anymore - and traffic wont happen as no other LLs are listing it - but even if they did the traffic from a recip is usually in the range of 1 hit every 10 days or so - not something that really counts in the grand scheme of things :)
More importantly - and I guess this just goes back to old school stuff that Im used to - when I was submitting to LLs - I would go check my stats - and if a site didnt list me I would stop submitting.
And if they are using an autosubmitter or doing something else that breaks the rules - should I really care what happens to their site?

[RobUK]

More importantly - and I guess this just goes back to old school stuff that Im used to - when I was submitting to LLs - I would go check my stats - and if a site didnt list me I would stop submitting.

Fair enough, but what about sites that take weeks or months to approve a submission? Only the other day one of my sites that I submitted several months ago was approved on a list that I'd taken out of my submit table for exactly that reason.

Seems to me that if LLs don't tell someone they're blacklisted they're bound to keep on submitting, at least for a while - how are they to know that the list doesn't have a huge backlog, or they simply don't like the most recent submissions or...

Of course, cheaters must be a HUGE pain in the ass for LL owners, and I'm in favour of blacklisting every last one of em. But it seems a little unfair to do it in secret, lest other submitters become unwittingly caught in the net.

Rob.

[Surfn]

You guys make a great case for partners only. :)

[RobUK]

Might well be a logical solution, at that. But I suspect that too will come with its own problems - it's fine only accepting submissions from folks who've submitted before, who you trust, who can show a history etc. But what about new submitters who don't have a history yet? How will they get at history under those conditions? I suppose they could be given a probationary partnership to see how it goes, but that might be a PITA for the LL owners to administer?

Rob.

[Surfn]

Might well be a logical solution, at that. But I suspect that too will come with its own problems - it's fine only accepting submissions from folks who've submitted before, who you trust, who can show a history etc. But what about new submitters who don't have a history yet? How will they get at history under those conditions? I suppose they could be given a probationary partnership to see how it goes, but that might be a PITA for the LL owners to administer?

Rob.I give out partners to people I know from their submits, they have a history.

I also give temporary partners to people I don't know, who haven't submitted to me before. If they submit garbage time after time they get dropped. It's not difficult to revoke a partnership. On the other hand it's just as easy to demonstrate your ability to follow the rules and be upgraded to a full partner.

The big difference is I require real emails and real domains. When people give out their real info they are less inclined to cheat. :)

[RawAlex]

You blacklisted entire IPs when one person on that IP is bad ???? Hell I thought that went out somewhere about the time we discovered fire !

The worst part about your situation is that many of your banned submitters will not even have known that they were banned (blanket auto-submit), whereas a lot of honest submitters who got blocked because they share IP's with crooks will be aware that you blocked them, and if their submission did not break your rules and contained a recip, many will have put you on their blacklist as a cheating webmaster.

And the few genuinely cheating webmasters who are aware you banned their IP will have simply switched IP.


While I won't say what IPs I have blocked, I can tell you that I have many CLASS Cs blocked, and even 1 class B (255.255.X.X) just to keep the autosumitting pieces of shit from dragging my server down and wasting my time.

I feel sorry for the 1 honest webmaster in trashcanistan that can't submit. For him I am so sorry.

Alex

[RobUK]

Sounds like a reasonable scheme from my (the submitter's) side of the fence! I'm certainly all in favour of following rules - probably why I have yet to retire to some tropical beach, but at least I sleep at nights :D

Requiring emails and domains is cool too, though I'm still not conviced about the need for personal data in whois info. Still, that's the general requirement, and it's only reasonable to follow it if I want LLs to list my sites.

Rob.

[Lemmy]

RE: "The honest ones will no doubt contact me to ask what the deal is " Not usually, there are so many bad webmasters out there that it is not worth the effort. A few will contact you, some will ignore you, others will just put you on a blacklist. (I was once given the following figures by a webmaster on another board, I have no idea how accurate they are, but no one else on the board contradicted him: For every one person who complain, you can assume ten do not. Nine of these will just never do business with you again, the tenth will tell all his friends that you are a cheater.)I disagree. Any honest webmaster who feels he is unfairly blacklisted will contact the LL owner to ask why. Any honest LL owner will seek to rectify an injustice. I know this business a lot better from the submitters point of view than I do the LL owner's, so I know what it's like.

Also see how quick people are to beg for un-blacklisting here on the board, whether they did something to deserve it or not.

As for getting a reputation for being a cheating webmaster, well, count the threads here outing cheating LL owners vs cheating submitters.

[morruga]

hey, is there any autosubmitting software to submit freesites??

if the recip is ok then add me to that software... i would let autosubmitting no my site!

:D

i'm a whore!

[Linkster]

But I suspect that too will come with its own problems - it's fine only accepting submissions from folks who've submitted before, who you trust, who can show a history etc. But what about new submitters who don't have a history yet? How will they get at history under those conditions? I suppose they could be given a probationary partnership to see how it goes,


I guess thats a part of it I should have posted - I only take partner submits and all of these autosubmitters dont even look at that rule - and I do tell them the way they can become a partner - and its very simple - but I still get hundreds a day that dont bother reading the rules

[Ramster]

Idiots autosubmit every day without regard for whether they are listed or not. They do NOT deserve to know if they are banned.

I too did NOT inform blocked/banned submits. Those people went right to the thanks for submitting page. I'm sure I banned them for a reason and since it had something to do with my rules then why do I need to let them know if they can't follow rules or read the countless reject emails I sent them telling them why they are not getting listed.

If webmasters are too stupid to check their stats monthly to see if certain pages are listing them then too bad for them.

[ecchi]

The important point everyone seems to be missing here is that I am NOT saying "you should do this to be fair to your submitter" I am saying "you should do this to be fair to YOURSELF". The bottom line is: If you blacklist ANYONE who sticks to your rules, word will get round that you are a cheater (even if it is not your intention to cheat people). Not only will this reduce submissions, but most webmasters have friends who are not webmasters, but who surf for porn (i.e. your customers), and they will be telling these friends that you are a cheater too ("I wouldn't use that site if I were you, the guy who runs it cheats webmasters, and if he cheats webmasters he is going to seriously rip off surfers"). Those friends are also going to tell their friends, and because the original information came from a "webmaster" it is going to be taken even more seriously (inside info).

You don't really think people like Greenguy and Tommy became big by pissing people off do you? They got where they are because people (both webmasters and surfers) trust and respect them.

And before someone posts something like "I make a couple of thousand dollars a week and I ban IPs", think how much you would be making if you were more "submitter friendly". Probably well over ten grand a week.

RE: "do you really think that you would have time to send them and email to let them know?" I was actually referring to the fact that you automatically send them to a "thank you" page rather than to a "Sorry your submission is refused, please re-read the rules" page. However since you bring up emails, you should not have to send them an email. Any halfway decent script will automatically send out the emails when it junks the submission.

RE: "Any honest webmaster who feels he is unfairly blacklisted will contact the LL owner to ask why" I am guessing that you do not have many friends who are serious LL or TGP submitters, or you would not be saying this. Get talking to a few of your submitters, ask them if this is so, you will soon find that you are very wrong.

[stuveltje]

well ha nice answers all, and yes i also block by ip , not all most i do by domain and email, but the very worse ones i block with all, and ofcourse i dont wanna tell someone that they are blacklisted, but i was realy surprise to see the result of responding webmasters who would ask "hey i am on the blacklist whats up"......i quess i am gonna do the same thing on some other linksites , lol i am just gonna bann all :D

[Useless]

The important point everyone seems to be missing here is that I am NOT saying "you should do this to be fair to your submitter" I am saying "you should do this to be fair to YOURSELF". The bottom line is: If you blacklist ANYONE who sticks to your rules, word will get round that you are a cheater (even if it is not your intention to cheat people). Not only will this reduce submissions, but most webmasters have friends who are not webmasters, but who surf for porn (i.e. your customers), and they will be telling these friends that you are a cheater too ("I wouldn't use that site if I were you, the guy who runs it cheats webmasters, and if he cheats webmasters he is going to seriously rip off surfers"). Those friends are also going to tell their friends, and because the original information came from a "webmaster" it is going to be taken even more seriously (inside info).I think you've lost your mind.

[Useless]

And before someone posts something like "I make a couple of thousand dollars a week and I ban IPs", think how much you would be making if you were more "submitter friendly". Probably well over ten grand a week.Yup, you've lost your mind.

[stuveltje]

Yup, you've lost your mind.
hahahahaha i am choking, i agree.

[ecchi]

RE: "I think you've lost your mind." That is a much held opinion of me. However I cannot see how the piece you quote adds fuel to the general suspicion of my sanity. Just because you do not talk to your non-webmaster friends about your business, it does not mean other webmasters also keep stumm about their business or hobby.

[stuveltje]

i am not blacklisting people who are by the rules, well some i do because i believe there is something strange with them but i cant find out what, and yep then people who are honest will contact the linksite owners or an board to ask why they got blacklisted, i think its an great way to find out who is honest and who is not (although that "honest" word also dont cound everytime when they post on an board:)

[Useless]

RE: "I think you've lost your mind." That is a much held opinion of me. However I cannot see how the piece you quote adds fuel to the general suspicion of my sanity. Just because you do not talk to your non-webmaster friends about your business, it does not mean other webmasters also keep stumm about their business or hobby.(I wish you'd learn to use the quote button ;) ) The only thing anyone wants to talk about with me is this damned business, but I never suggest anyone's sites and I don't recall anyone ever asking where they should surf.

[ecchi]

I have retyped this post about three times, trying to make it look like a serious point and not just a cheap insult, but cannot find a good way to word it. So please, when you read it realise I genuinly mean it as a serious point, not just trying to score points.

stuveltje do you actually know how the Internet works ? You say "i am not blacklisting people who are by the rules", but in a previous post you said "i also block by ip". That is like saying "I never hit anyone who does not insult me, but if someone called Dave insults me then I hit everyone in the area called Dave"

[Surfn]

ecchi

Instead of trying to change the way established sites do business why not try changing your approach and move on?

[ecchi]

(I wish you'd learn to use the quote button ;) )

I know how to use it, but a long time ago I got fed up of people who use it to quote an entire post instead of just the point they are commenting on, and stopped reading anything it a quote box. In case anyone else is doing the same, I stopped using the quote button myself.

Also I think using the quote button rather than the old fashioned method look a bit nerdy (sort of "Look at me, I am using all the gadgets" kind of thing). But I guess I am just showing my age.

[ecchi]

RE : "Instead of trying to change the way established sites do business why not try changing your approach and move on?" I am not trying to change anything. Anyone is free to do whatever they like. I am just stating the facts as I see them, so that as well as being free to ignore me, people are also free to read what I post, think about it, and if they decide that I am correct change their way and make more money. It is called "helping other people out".

Although I agree with you, it would be better for me if I kept quiet. The more webmasters who alienate their surfers there are, the more unhappy surfers there will be looking for somewhere else to go for porn. By the law of averages a few will end up on my sites. So yes, if I kept silent I would make more money. Unfortunately that was not the way I was brought up.

[Lemmy]

RE: "Any honest webmaster who feels he is unfairly blacklisted will contact the LL owner to ask why" I am guessing that you do not have many friends who are serious LL or TGP submitters, or you would not be saying this. Get talking to a few of your submitters, ask them if this is so, you will soon find that you are very wrong.No I don't, but I am a serious LL submitter. In my 11 months in this business I've subbed over 200 freesites to at least 150 LLs. Twice I've received BL notices, twice I've approached the owner and twice I've received courteous replies explaining it was a mistake.

As fucked up as the system is (due in no small part to the cheaters) it works. Play straight and you'll be fine. Try funny stuff and pay the consequenses.

I think you seriously overestimate word of mouth on the net. By your reckoning I should soon be without both submitters and surfers, yet both are increasing.

I'm really not worried about my own reputation in the business, especially since, as I mentioned earlier, I've deleted all IP ban records and now ban by domain. That said, I'm getting more trigger happy on the ban button.

[ecchi]

Lemmy, I am curious, if you disagree with me then why did you delete all IP ban records and now ban by domain ?

And RE "I think you seriously overestimate word of mouth on the net. By your reckoning I should soon be without both submitters and surfers, yet both are increasing." Umm, if you have stopped banning by IP and both your submitters and (more importantly) surfers are increasing, I think that kind of [b]PROVES[b] my point doesn't it?

[RobUK]

But I guess I am just showing my age.

If you're old enough to remember Katy Manning / Jo Grant first time around (that IS her in your avatar isn't it? I recognise the Dalek, anyway.. :D ) then you're probably 40ish, maybe a little more.

With respect to your points about LLs gaining a bad rep from surfers, I'm sure such things happen, but I doubt it would have that much impact upon the list itself. Besides, there are enough porn surfers around for it not to really matter unless it becomes a BIG problem.

On the other hand, I don't agree with stu that "honest" webmasters will neccessarily bother to find out why (or if) they've been blacklisted by smaller LLs either. As I said earlier, at least some lists have a LONG review time, on the order of several months, and others may just have not liked what was submitted etc. By the time it's become apparent that your submissions are never going to appear, it's a dead issue IMHO.

As a newbie at this submitting thing, I'm always looking out for new lists to submit to, and for ones that for whatever reason don't work for me. I'm gradually building up a picture of reliable and unreliable (from my perspective) lists - if I were to be blacklisted and not told about it, I might well raise the point with a list that I'd previously thought to be reliable, but for others I'd probably just add them to the unreliable list and forget them until someone asked me for a list of reliable / unreliable LLs.

As UW says, there's very little point in trying to change the culture of a business; I always try to follow the rules out of respect for the LL owner's wishes, but if they were to blacklist me for an error rather than deliberate intent, well, that's up to them.

Rob.

[Lemmy]

Lemmy, I am curious, if you disagree with me then why did you delete all IP ban records and now ban by domain ?Because I wouldn't want anyone to be unfairly banned due to another person's shit. I thought that was clear.

[Lemmy]

Umm, if you have stopped banning by IP and both your submitters and (more importantly) surfers are increasing, I think that kind of [b]PROVES[b] my point doesn't it?I changed my banning practises about a week ago. But I feel you're not going to happy unless I agree with you, so yes, it proves your point.

[stuveltje]

I have retyped this post about three times, trying to make it look like a serious point and not just a cheap insult, but cannot find a good way to word it. So please, when you read it realise I genuinly mean it as a serious point, not just trying to score points.

stuveltje do you actually know how the Internet works ? You say "i am not blacklisting people who are by the rules", but in a previous post you said "i also block by ip". That is like saying "I never hit anyone who does not insult me, but if someone called Dave insults me then I hit everyone in the area called Dave" mmmm whats that internet? Probably i do know how the internet works if i am still here after 4 years:D grin ecchi, i dont always block by ip, but i will do if have some very bad cheaters on an ip, give you an example, yes there was ones a guy i believe an year ago asking why his ip was blacklisted, i explained to that webmaster that i had some bad stuff submitted from some other people who had the same ip, his answer to me was: oh no problem and he hitted up his host for an other ip! Sometimes there is no other choise for an linksite owner or an reviewer then to block all.

[RawAlex]

Ecchi, let me give you a "real world" example of IP blocking.

Let's say you run a restaurant, and you deliver. There is a certain apartment building in your neighborhood that has, hmmm, 255 apartments. Over a year, you make about 100 deliveries, and about 75 of them turn out to be fake, or people rob the driver, or people try to steal the driver's car, or they call 100 times per day to order food but never answer the door.

Would it not be reasonable to say "I don't deliver to that building anymore"?

YES, I know... keep a long list of individual apartments that caused trouble. Every time someone calls, go through that long list and look to see if that apartment has given you trouble before. Make sure that the current resident isn't someone who moved to another floor... then you might find the ONE GOOD CUSTOMER in a building full of theives and liars.

Nope. Ban the building, move on.

In our buisness, it's the same thing. We ban IPs, we ban hosts, and we ban domains. - often banning all domains from the same owner even if they have never submitted to us. Why? Because our time is worth something, and it isn't worth our effort to try to find the one good submitter in a pile of liars, autosubmitters, and theives.

We are not doing this randomly. This is experience in action.

Alex

[Linkster]

I rarely ban by IP - its usually by host - and there are quite a few hosts banned (there's been loads of threads here about it) and if someone wants to host their domain on a host that seems to not only house cheaters, but offers ways around the LL bots checking things like whois and nameservers - then they are auto banned as well.

One thing I learned a long time ago - in this biz its a real good idea to research before you do anything - from running a LL to submitting free sites. I get submitters who I know from experience and from listings at other LLs that are good free site builders and probably never even changed a page after it was listed etc. BUT - they still dont take the time to read my rules - or they use one of the "hand-submit" programs that just loads the submit form without the rules - and they miss the fact that I have very specific requirements about who can submit - and I guarantee you I have no intention of cheating anyone - my rules - if they dont want to take the time to read them Ill be damned if Im going to take the time to chase them down and give them a clue - but I guess thats cause Im a very old man and dont have the time to play mr nice guy anymore.

If someone contacts me through this board which is exactly what I say in my rules, I can only think of one case where I refused a partner account - and I dont charge for them - just dont have time for the gallery4589.html's that show up in batches of 200 at a time. Makes my submitters happier as they get better treatment and placements and therefore better traffic which is my goal.

[ecchi]

RE: "that IS her in your avatar isn't it? I recognise the Dalek, anyway" Yes, it is her. And, yes, I do remember her first time round.

RE: "But I feel you're not going to happy unless I agree with you" Oh grow up.

RE: "Ecchi, let me give you a "real world" example of IP blocking." I agree with your example, but my point is if you take payment in advance from the other 25% and don't deliver they are going to shout all around town that you are a crook. In the LL/tgp business, if you expect all submitters to put a recip on their free site or gallery before you post the link (which is the way this business works), you are asking for payment in advance, so do not be surprised when those you banned for being in a "bad neighbourhood" put it around that you are a cheater, even though cheating people was not your intention.

RE: "If someone contacts me through this board which is exactly what I say in my rules" Hmm. I have a newbie WM site and often get asked the same questions, so have "form" emails that just get cut and pasted and sent out to some queries. The things I recommend include reading this board, and one of the sites I recommend to submit to is Tommy's. I have had three emails so far saying effectively "how can I recommend Tommy when he is obviously just trying to scam some money out of me ?" Two cited this thread as "proof": http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/showthread.php?t=21431 and one cited this thread: http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/showthread.php?t=22773 So it is probably not a good idea to get people to post in an open forum, as everyone sees what they want to see in a thread.

[ecchi]

Just realised that some people may skim my last post and assume I am saying that Tommy is a crook. I am not saying that, I am saying he is honest, but because of threads they read on this board three people have emailed me to say that they think he is a con man and that I am accepting bribes from him to recommend his site.

[ecchi]

RE: "then you're probably 40ish, maybe a little more" Guilty as charged, but I just realised that according to your profile you are only 34 and you recognised Katy Manning ! (I'm also old enough to be salivating with anticipation over the fact that Elisabeth Sladen (Sarah Jane Smith) will be returning to the series next year.)

[stuveltje]

On the other hand, I don't agree with stu that "honest" webmasters will neccessarily bother to find out why (or if) they've been blacklisted by smaller LLs either. As I said earlier, at least some lists have a LONG review time, on the order of several months, and others may just have not liked what was submitted etc. By the time it's become apparent that your submissions are never going to appear, it's a dead issue IMHOwell the issue i have is not on an small LL its on some big LLs, although i dont see any reason why an webmaster wont ask a linksite owner of an smaller LL why he or she didnt got listed?

[RawAlex]

Ecchi: If a site asks for a fee for review (see Yahoo directory listings) it is to pay for the process of review, not for the product itself. A partner account fee is an "idiot filter". If you are stupid enough to pay $XXX without first reading the rules, well, you get what you deserve.

At the end of the day, you think you can do better? Start a link list, have open submits, and you can sit there and wade through the tons and tons of bullshit you will get.

Come back in a year and tell me how it feels to spend 6 hours a day manually filtering crap, getting vriuses and spyware installed daily, and handling irate emails and PMs because you didn't list some fool's latest attempt to scam you and your surfers.

Then we will have something to discuss.

Alex

[ecchi]

RE: "i dont see any reason why an webmaster wont ask a linksite owner of an smaller LL why he or she didnt got listed" Way back when the majority of my traffic came from LL and TGP, I spent hours a day creating and submitting. I did not have time to email every WM who did not list me. I would guess that the only WMs who have time to do this are those who use auto submit software.

It has just crossed my mind that back then (when I spent a lot of my day submitting) the two biggest TGP sites were The Hun and Richard's Realm. Both of those sent out emails to tell you if you had been accepted or not. None of the minor sites ones did.

[ecchi]

RawAlex - I think you totally missed the point of my post on the subject. I was not commenting on the good/bad points of partner accounts. I was using Tommy as an example to point out that people make a decision as to the honesty of a webmaster on what they hear about him. And that at least three people decided from threads on this board that Tommy was a crook (even though neither of the threads actually paint a bad picture of him). And incidentally decided I must be a crook too for saying he was OK.

And re "Come back in a year and tell me how it feels to spend 6 hours a day manually filtering crap" I have spent many years filtering crap on TGP sites thank you. And also ran a link list for a couple of years.

[stuveltje]

RE: "i dont see any reason why an webmaster wont ask a linksite owner of an smaller LL why he or she didnt got listed" Way back when the majority of my traffic came from LL and TGP, I spent hours a day creating and submitting. I did not have time to email every WM who did not list me. I would guess that the only WMs who have time to do this are those who use auto submit software.

It has just crossed my mind that back then (when I spent a lot of my day submitting) the two biggest TGP sites were The Hun and Richard's Realm. Both of those sent out emails to tell you if you had been accepted or not. None of the minor sites ones did.there are still linksites around who send emails, i was an free site submitter myself and handsubmitted my sites, and because i spended so much time with the handsubmitting i surely wanted to know why my site didnt got listed at an linksite, no use to submit to sites where you dont get listed. lol i do remmeber that time that i saw alot of postings from linksite owners on the boards, yelling and nagging and making their rules list longer....that time i thought geeze do they have to do that.....till some linksites owners showed me what they had to deal with all day and since more then 2.5 years where i have to deal with all day.

[RobUK]

RE: "(I'm also old enough to be salivating with anticipation over the fact that Elisabeth Sladen (Sarah Jane Smith) will be returning to the series next year.)

Really??? I'm WAY out of touch on my Who stuff - haven't even watched the last 6 or so of the last series yet, they're all on tape waiting for me to get a day free!

Rob.

[ecchi]

Yes really. And if the 6 you have not yet seen include "Empty Child" then you owe yourself an apology, it was mindblowingly brilliant.

[RobUK]

well the issue i have is not on an small LL its on some big LLs, although i dont see any reason why an webmaster wont ask a linksite owner of an smaller LL why he or she didnt got listed?

Probably for much the same reason why they won't say when they've blacklisted someone. By the time I've decided that they're actually dumping the submissions rather than hugely backlogged (had another acceptance today for a site that I submitted about 3 months ago) I'll probably have adjusted my submit list to include sites that DO accept.

Sure, for the sites that are really backlogged, I'll put em back on the list for new submissions, but I'm not going to go back and submit old sites to them any more than I'm going to go back and find out why others didn't accept. Even if I did, I doubt they'd know for sure after several months, and it would be unreasonable to expect them to IMHO.

As you say, it takes a lot of time to manually submit to a lot of lists, the return on that investment being traffic and, hopefully, conversions. Submissions to large lists = lots of traffic, submissions to small lists = small (sometimes very small) amounts of traffic. Is it worth investing yet more time in finding out why an old site didn't get listed? Depends on the list, how much time I have etc.

For larger lists, smaller lists that have previously accepted and any list that tells me I've screwed up then yes, it's probably worth it when I have a min. For smaller lists that have never accepted, no, IMHO, it's not. To take up the example Raw Alex gave, it's not unreasonable to say "I don't deliver to that building any more" if they say they want your food but never open the door. On the other hand, if they accept the food then call up and tell me the food was horrible, I'll do my best to make it better next time.

Rob.

[RobUK]

Yes really. And if the 6 you have not yet seen include "Empty Child" then you owe yourself an apology, it was mindblowingly brilliant.

Rob, I am soooo sorry, I'll let myself watch them later if I'm good... :D

A quick check of GallifreyOne shows John Leeson will also be returning - now, what role will he be playing? And no cheating by looking it up :D

Rob.

[stuveltje]

Probably for much the same reason why they won't say when they've blacklisted someone. By the time I've decided that they're actually dumping the submissions rather than hugely backlogged (had another acceptance today for a site that I submitted about 3 months ago) I'll probably have adjusted my submit list to include sites that DO accept.

Sure, for the sites that are really backlogged, I'll put em back on the list for new submissions, but I'm not going to go back and submit old sites to them any more than I'm going to go back and find out why others didn't accept. Even if I did, I doubt they'd know for sure after several months, and it would be unreasonable to expect them to IMHO.

As you say, it takes a lot of time to manually submit to a lot of lists, the return on that investment being traffic and, hopefully, conversions. Submissions to large lists = lots of traffic, submissions to small lists = small (sometimes very small) amounts of traffic. Is it worth investing yet more time in finding out why an old site didn't get listed? Depends on the list, how much time I have etc.

For larger lists, smaller lists that have previously accepted and any list that tells me I've screwed up then yes, it's probably worth it when I have a min. For smaller lists that have never accepted, no, IMHO, it's not. To take up the example Raw Alex gave, it's not unreasonable to say "I don't deliver to that building any more" if they say they want your food but never open the door. On the other hand, if they accept the food then call up and tell me the food was horrible, I'll do my best to make it better next time.

Rob.ha yep with that i have to agree, i did got some acception emails from some linksites a month ago , where i submitted almost an year ago, when i first saw the email i thought hey when did i made a free site for them ( or when did i made an free site at all this year), well an year ago, and yep just deleteing all t get rid of the backlog is bad, i never thought of the facked that an linsite owner would do that, well not if they are an seriouse webmaster.

[ecchi]

RE: "John Leeson will also be returning - now, what role will he be playing?" If I remember correctly he is a voice artist, did the voices of "slave" and "Zen" in Blakes 7, so I guess he must be the voice of K9. And it makes sense since the Doctor sent one of the K9s to Sarah Jane Smith after she left the Tardis (for a God awful spin of series that only lasted as far as a pilot episode).

OK, I'll go check now, see if I am making an idiot of myself.

[ecchi]

Yup, looks like I am correct. I also just leaned that he played Bungle (the bear in Rainbow) as well. Seems he got the "cult voice over" market all sewed up.

[ecchi]

Apologies to the majority of people on this board who are American, and unless are very enlightened Americans, will have no idea what the hell I am talking about in my last three posts.

[RobUK]

He was indeed K9, apart from one season (season 18?), reprising the role in the 5 doctors and K9 and company, as it seems he will be again. But he wasn't Zen, Slave or Orac - they were all done by Peter Tuddenham, IIRC.

Had no idea he was Bungle though! The things you learn here on GG&J |bananna|

PS sorry for hijacking this thread folks - I'll go back in my hole now :D

Rob.

[stuveltje]

Apologies to the majority of people on this board who are American, and unless are very enlightened Americans, will have no idea what the hell I am talking about in my last three posts.hey i am an ductchie and i only can think about .......ecchi is very old:D Stu-------------->>> hiding now |couch|

[ecchi]

RE: "he wasn't Zen, Slave or Orac - they were all done by Peter Tuddenham" Wow, I got the correct answer from the wrong reasoning. I guess it was either luck or I am a genius. I think I'll go for the second possibility.

[ecchi]

RE: "hey i am an ductchie and i only can think about .......ecchi is very old" So will you be one day mate. Youth is the one disease that time can cure.

Being Dutch I guess you miss out on all the great things in life like Dr Who, Blake's Seven, and Rainbow. But then on the plus side you also missed what Gérard Depardieu said about Dutch people on British TV last Friday.

[stuveltje]

RE: "hey i am an ductchie and i only can think about .......ecchi is very old" So will you be one day mate. Youth is the one disease that time can cure.

Being Dutch I guess you miss out on all the great things in life like Dr Who, Blake's Seven, and Rainbow. But then on the plus side you also missed what Gérard Depardieu said about Dutch people on British TV last Friday.hahahahah grin i know doctor who, when that wa on dutch telly me was an youngster and i was always afraid to go to bed that time when i sa that, the rest i dont know about, Gerard depardieu, his name sound frenche i dont know him but dutchies are good and smart ( well i am then and i am an woman heay mate:D ) oh and i am 21 years old already for almost 16 years |pink

[ecchi]

Gérard Depardieu Is probably France's most famous actor. He has also done quite a few Hollywood movies. Also a bit famous for his cookery book.

[RobUK]

RE: "I guess it was either luck or I am a genius. I think I'll go for the second possibility.

Good choice! "You can't kill me! I'm.. I'm a GENIUS!" :D

Rob.