Greenguy & Jim's Official Rage Cash Statement

[FlyingSpaghettiMonster]

Jim's thoughts:
This will be my only post on this subject
Most of you don't remember or know the outrage of using the word teen in a site name or description. This too will pass.

Having a fantasy about not being drugged but just sleeping and having sex and rape are 2 different things. It really is not my business what a program promotes...and to tell you the truth, when the deal was made, I had no idea what the sites were. But, if I had, I would have still made the deal. To each their own. As I said many times in private, it is a fetish...nothing more and clearly a fantasy. I know for myself, a husband can rape his wife. But there have been quite a few times while my wife was sleeping that I tried to get a little. Does that make me a rapist? Actually, my wife has told me many times that i can have it anytime I want as long as I don't wake her

I just think some people have to lighten up a bit and take it for what it is...a fetish and a fantasy. Just like being tied up. Are the woman forced to be tied up? We don't know...are we going to shy away from BDSM sites, No...

And in a sarcastic mode...I am sure Bush and his pals have nothing better to do than to look at than a fake sex while sleeping site. There are real Rape sites out there guys. There are real child porn sites out there...choose your battles wisely. Don't waste your time with a site that even Visa had no problem with.

*****

Greenguy's thoughts:
1st off, I will not be promoting the Sleep Assault site. That's just my personal preference as I am uncomfortable with pushing the site to my surfers.

But I do also realize after seeing the members area that it is based on 2 things - the sex being a dream the girl is having OR the girl waking up & enjoying it.

Oddly enough, I don't have a problem with the mother/daughter sites, since the daughter is obviously over 18 & who the fuck am I to judge what 2 consenting adults do?

Here's some food for thought:
1 - Would everyone have the same problem with Sleep Assault if it was a chick blowing a guy that's sleeping?
2 - Would everyone have the same problem with MotherDaughterFuck if it was a switched to a Father-Son site?
3 - Many programs have sites that I am not comfortable with, so I choose to not promote those particular sites. Think about it, as I really don't want to call out programs that have nothing to do with this thread - how many of them have fake beasty sites? Fake incest sites? Femdom sites? Old guys with 18 year old girls? Old ladies with 18 year old guys? Drunk/drug sex? If you are offended by any of these things, you need to go thru all of your sponsors & pull some links, because odds are one or more of the sponsors that you are already promoting have sites that make you uncomfortable.

[susanna]

a husband cannot rape his wife in Canada atleast. He is put in jail for it. You may have mis typed that one. not sure

[Useless]

a husband cannot rape his wife in Canada atleast. He is put in jail for it. You may have mis typed that one. not sureWhether or not the justice system chooses to define it as rape or not, I'm sure we all know that a husband can most definately rape his wife.

[ArtWilliams]

a husband cannot rape his wife in Canada atleast. He is put in jail for it. You may have mis typed that one. not sure

That was the case but it is no longer true. In Canada, the term rape was eliminated in the 1980s and replaced with the term "sexual assault". At that time, references to husbands were removed from the criminal code, with respect to sex crimes. Also, the new law explicitly allowed, for the first time, women to be charged with the crime of sexual assault.
-- art

[Jim]

a husband cannot rape his wife in Canada atleast. He is put in jail for it. You may have mis typed that one. not sure
I guess that I just have to make myself a little more clear. Rape is illegal...So, if a husband forces his wife to have sex with him it is considered Rape. So, yes...I said it correctly, A husband can Rape his wife. That is kind of new. It is illegal and he would go to jail.

My god...why would I have to explain that part.

I am done with this entire thing.

[Linkster]

oddly enough I did go out and do some research to try to figure out if Im being too "stuffy" when it comes to that mother/daughter site.
Unfortunately what I found is that in half of the states in the US, incest laws include a statement about sexual contact either between two relatives OR two relatives with a third person - and although the stiffest penalties were obviously for the penetration type of sex, some states had felonies attached to the sexual contact parts as well.

Just a statement with no opinion attached

[Useless]

oddly enough I did go out and do some research to try to figure out if Im being too "stuffy" when it comes to that mother/daughter site.
Unfortunately what I found is that in half of the states in the US, incest laws include a statement about sexual contact either between two relatives OR two relatives with a third person - and although the stiffest penalties were obviously for the penetration type of sex, some states had felonies attached to the sexual contact parts as well.

Just a statement with no opinion attached
I haven't actually known anyone where I'd like to have both the mother and daughter, but I've seen plenty of MILFs in the mall walking with their daughters and wouldn't have minded being tag-teamed by them. Of course, my preference has always been one at a time. I can barely please one woman. How am I supposed to handle two? I'm a realist even in my fantasies.

[wolfie]

That site hit my eyes first as well. Decided not to promote that. But that's just me. I may skip some very bizarre sites as well.

Other ones looks cool! Can't wait to get account activated.

[Linkster]

, A husband can Rape his wife. That is kind of new. It is illegal and he would go to jail.
.

Actually I was kinda surprised when I looked at the actual laws and most states would not consider a husband forcing sex as rape - it is held to a completely different puritanically based standard and is in the works to go to the supreme court in a few cases.
On the other hand, where the people are not married, any sexual penetration without prior consent is definitely rape no matter how you dice it - doesnt really matter even if the woman (or man) had expressed an interest in it verbally prior to the act(fantasized) - if she (or he) decided to they could definitely charge rape with no problem. Would it fly in a court - who knows - depends on what examples that state wanted to set - or what political climate happens to be around that day???

I find it disheartening to see other types of sites by other sponsors thrown in to the mix like beastiality (which in most states is legal and BDSM where there is prior consent, old ladies with younger guys or the opposite - where there is only an age difference - none of which has any legal problems - just doesnt make any sense to justify things that way. Again I make my decision based on my own surfers as hopefully does everyone else - but keeping an open mind and knowing the real legal background should be part of that decision making process.

[Extreme John]

Very well said by both of you, with everything said above I think the key statement made is "To each's own"

[deleuze]

So if I the mailman fucks Jim's wife when she is sleeping this would would be considered the fetish "sleeping and having sex" classed as something entirely different from rape? This is getting lame. The site is a rape site and is not ashamed of it. It's obvious to everyone including CCBill.

[doublep]

My 2 cents - if I may! :)
Shame this really - I would have thrown some targeted traffic at the sleeping site, I have had a page on my site for Somnophilia for a while now. But not to a domain name using the word assault - a more prudent approach was needed when choosing that name!

As for the mother/daughter site - Jury is still out - but if anyone is going to promote it - consider this:

If you get up there in the serps with the KW's mother daughter - you are going to stand out like an Asian with a ruck sack on a London tube!
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2003-50,GGLD:en&q=mother+daughter


If you get up the serps with here with the KW's Mother Daughter Porn - you can rub shoulders with some of the biggest cunts in the world!

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&rls=GGLD%2CGGLD%3A2003-50%2CGGLD%3Aen&q=mother+daughter+porn

Good luck - and have fun ;-)

by the way - the Penetration Tease site - luv it - dig it! :-)

Over and out.

PP

|potleaf|

[Greenguy]

oddly enough I did go out and do some research to try to figure out if Im being too "stuffy" when it comes to that mother/daughter site...Isn't it still a law that you can't have anal sex in Georgia?

If that is true, some people have a lot of sites & links to pull so that their Georgia surfers are safe :D

[Greenguy]

So if I the mailman fucks Jim's wife when she is sleeping this would would be considered the fetish "sleeping and having sex" classed as something entirely different from rape? This is getting lame. The site is a rape site and is not ashamed of it. It's obvious to everyone including CCBill.If she was dreaming that the mailman was taking advantage of her while she was sleeping OR if she woke up & was quite happy to see the mailman's cock in her hand, then yes |thumb

[emmanuelle]

Whether it is 'legal' or not, it sends a very unpleasant message.
If a woman is not expressing her consent, is it consensual? I am not convinced that it is. By promoting this company, we are promoting and condoning questionable behaviour.

Do we REALLY need the problems that these sites are going to heap on our industry?
Personally I won't be a part of it. I signed up to promote their foot site, but after seeing the others, I will find other sponsors to promote instead.

[doublep]

So if I the mailman fucks Jim's wife when she is sleeping this would would be considered the fetish "sleeping and having sex" classed as something entirely different from rape? This is getting lame. The site is a rape site and is not ashamed of it. It's obvious to everyone including CCBill.

The postman always ring twice - she would be awake ;-)

|potleaf|

[nekrom]

Wah, wah, wah, piss n moan, piss n moan.
Just like TV, don't like it? change the chanel.
I like rage cash, I'm pushing rage cash, I'll be cashing in on rage cash.

Thank You all, and good night.

-N

[Kenny B!]

With the influx of teen sites with girls that have braces and look 14 to the other side of the spectrum with the extreme sites where you have girls degraded and crying webmasters are trying whatever they can to make their sites different and get the sale. This is the type of content that seems to be selling, whether or not we like it is a personal opinion.

These are paid models who leave with a pay check and smile, you don’t hear of companies being sued for mistreating models. Yes there are cases but it’s not good business and it’s rare. We have a site in the works that’s more on the extreme side of things, before each shoot we show the models a previous scene so they know what they’re in for and there was a checklist as part of the model release of what they’re willing to do. No one is being take advantage of and they all get this “I can do better” attitude.

What it comes down to in my opinion is if you don’t want to promote a site for whatever reason that’s up to you, but if it got approved by Visa then god bless!

[Surfn]

I haven't actually known anyone where I'd like to have both the mother and daughter, but I've seen plenty of MILFs in the mall walking with their daughters and wouldn't have minded being tag-teamed by them. Of course, my preference has always been one at a time. I can barely please one woman. How am I supposed to handle two? I'm a realist even in my fantasies.In the early 90's I was doing some research in a very small town out west (Utah) and I had both a mother 38 and a daughter 21 chasing me. They were both hot and they both wanted me for different reasons. Fortunately that was one time I came away unscathed ;)

[Surfn]

My opinion is pretty much the same as GG and Jim and UW and some others.

Now stay with me I don't want you to think I'm kissing ass.

My thinking is Legal porn is legal porn. If you have a problem with one area of legal porn you have a problem with all legal porn and you should not be in this industry.

I've seen too many hobbyists over the years come and try to get a thin slice of the pie only to tell everyone else they were doing it all wrong. They had no dog in the fight. Just moral issues. If you have moral issues you should not be in this industry.

No I choose not to promote certain things. But I'm certainly not going to moan about them. I'm not going to sit in judgment of those who choose to promote them.

This is my only post on the subject I'm not here to debate. I come here to do biz, not kill biz!!

[emmanuelle]

Why is it inconceivable to some people that one's business can indeed be run with integrity? Without the eroticization of misogynist violence?

[doublep]

"If you have moral issues you should not be in this industry".

" No I choose not to promote certain things".

Ahhhh... but when YOU choose not to promote certain things... what do YOU use to make that decision, if not morals..

Had to ask ;-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morals

[Linkster]

Isn't it still a law that you can't have anal sex in Georgia?

:D

hell - It is illegal for any member of the Nevada legislature to conduct official business wearing a penis costume while the legislature is in session

And at least ten states its illegal to use a dildo - with one exception that I remember where you were limited to owning 7 devices.
In the state of Washington there is a law against having sex with a virgin under any circumstances (including the wedding night).

And I think you were thinking of oral sex in Ga - a man was convicted there a while back to five years in prison for oral sex - with his wife
Some other states where its also illegal:
South Dakota threatens a 10-year prison term for "copulation by means of mouth." Utah has made this same act a misdemeanor. There, oral sex brings a six-month jail term and a $299 fine. Rhode Island labels it an "'abominable, detestable crime against nature," and such activity brings a seven-to-10-year stretch in the penitentiary. It is outlawed in New Mexico where participation is punishable by a $5,000 fine and a two-to-10-year sentence. Florida chastises with a 20-year prison sentence those who take part in this act

[Linkster]

Just had to add this one:
In Florida, having sexual relations with a porcupine is illegal

[Cleo]

Sodomy is illegal in Florida.

[Chop Smith]

In Florida, having sexual relations with a porcupine is illegal
They did not have to pass a law for Bully. He learned the hard way when he fucked with a porcupine.
Picture 1 (http://choponthelake.com/bully_1.jpg)
Picture 2 (http://choponthelake.com/bully_2.jpg)

[Useless]

They did not have to pass a law for Bully. He learned the hard way when he fucked with a porcupine.
Picture 1 (http://choponthelake.com/bully_1.jpg)
Picture 2 (http://choponthelake.com/bully_2.jpg)Oh my... That poor poochie. I've had dogs come home with 2 or 3 quills, but never that. Looks like Bully needs to learn that no means no. Does that dog sense pain at all?

[Erick G]

Saw those pics few weeks ago.
poor dog must be NUMB

[Chop Smith]

Sorry - now back on topic. Bully was either dreaming of being tortured or the porcupine raped him.

[Cleo]

Was he sleeping at the time?

[emmanuelle]

Oh that's horrible!

[docholly]

hell - It is illegal for any member of the Nevada legislature to conduct official business wearing a penis costume while the legislature is in session

That's because most of the representatives we have here have just come from their graveyard shift at "Frank's All Male Review" and they needed to "pack" their shorts.

|thumb

[doublep]

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

Words in papers, words in books
Words on tv, words for crooks
Words of comfort, words of peace
Words to make the fighting cease
Words to tell you what to do
Words are working hard for you
Eat your words but don’t go hungry
Words have always nearly hung me

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

Words of nuance, words of skill
And words of romance are a thrill
Words are stupid, words are fun
Words can put you on the run

mots press?, mots sens?,
mots qui disent la v?it?mots maudits, mots mentis,
mots qui manquent le fruit d'esprit

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

Its a rap race, with a fast pace
Concrete words, abstract words
Crazy words and lying words
Hazy words and dying words
Words of faith and tell me straight
Rare words and swear words
Good words and bad words

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

Words can make you pay and pay
Four-letter words I cannot say
Panty, toilet, dirty devil
Words are trouble, words are subtle
Words of anger, words of hate
Words over here, words out there
In the air and everywhere
Words of wisdom, words of strife
Words that write the book I like
Words won’t find no right solution
To the planet earth’s pollution
Say the right word, make a million
Words are like a certain person
Who can’t say what they mean
Don’t mean what they say
With a rap rap here and a rap rap there
Here a rap, there a rap
Everywhere a rap rap

Rap it up for the common good
Let us enlist the neighbourhood
It’s okay, I’ve overstood
This is a wordy rappinghood, okay, bye.

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

He’ll stop ... don’t stop ... stop.


|potleaf|

[Wazza]

Ummm what tune's it to?

|viking|

[Sinistress]

Who would want to have sex with a porcupine?

[Greenguy]

Other porcupines?

[Sinistress]

Haha good answer Greenguy. Does that mean that when porcupines in Florida are mating, one or both of them is under risk of arrest?

[doublep]

Ummm what tune's it to?

|viking|

Hey up Wazza :)

That's Tom Tom Club, who are Chris Frantz and Tina Weymouth - ex Talking Heads.


Monkey see and monkey do
Making babies, eating food
Smelly things, pubic hair
Words of love, in the air
Sparks fly, shooting out
Making sure that every thing is working
I can't turn you down
We are programmed happy little children
Matter over mind
We can not resist so I won't fight it
Love is a machine
Love is a machine without a driver
The facts of life
The facts of life
A masterpiece
Biology
Smokey water
Air conditioned
Boys 'n' girls
And automation
Chromosomes
Designer jeans
Chimpanzees
And human beings
Machines of love
Machines of love
Strong in body, strong in mind
A love machine with the facts of life
The facts of life
The facts of life
So much sex 'n' violence
Must be a bad design
We're stupid to be fighting
Every night
The monsters we create
They welcome us aboard
The best in advertising
From coast to coast
The girls and boys combine
Like monkeys in the zoo
The clouds have silver linings
Looks pretty good
People fall in love like in fairy tales
I'm not sure I like, what they can do
I'm afraid that God has no master plan
He only takes -- what he can use
Factory life, ice cream & pie
Factory life
Someday we'll live on Venus
And men will walk on Mars
But we will still be monkeys
Down deep inside
If chimpanzees are smart
Then we will close our eyes
And let our instincts guide us
Oh oh oh oh no

Facts Of Life - True Stories.

|potleaf|

[Wazza]

Oh great - now I've got Psycho Killer stuck in my head... Better sleep in the spare room tonight...

|viking|

[Wazza]

Speaking of music - these guys managed to get the words "Bukkake Party" into their latest song :D

http://www.butterfingers.info/

[doublep]

Oh great - now I've got Psycho Killer stuck in my head... Better sleep in the spare room tonight...

|viking|

When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed....

;-)

|potleaf|

[doublep]

Speaking of music - these guys managed to get the words "Bukkake Party" into their latest song :D

http://www.butterfingers.info/

HAHAHAHA!!!
Product placement in music now - for fuck's sake - is nothing sacred anymore!

[urb]

When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed....


I believe the next line goes...

Say something once, why say it again?

[doublep]

I believe the next line goes...

Say something once, why say it again?

Get in, Urb - hope life is treating you good mate :-)

I can't seem to face up to the facts
I'm tense and nervous and I can't relax
I can't sleep cause my bed's on fire
Don't touch me I'm a real live wire

Psycho killer, qu'est que c'est
Far better
Run away
Psycho killer, que'st que c'est
Far better
Run away
Oh yeah

You start a conversation you can't seem to finish it
You're talkin' a lot but you're not sayin' anything
When I have nothing to say my lips are sealed
Say something once why say it again

Chorus

Ce que j'ai fait, ce soir la
Ce qu'elle a dit, ce soir la
Realisant, mon espoir
Je me lance vers la gloire
We are vain and we are blind
I hate people when they're not polite

[doublep]

Here's one for you! What is the connection between Talking heads and The Happy Mondays?

Son, I'm 30
I only went with your mother 'cause she's dirty
And I don't have a decent bone in me
What you get is just what you see yeah
I see it so I take it freely
And all the bad piss ugly things i feed me
I never help or give to the needy
Come on and see me

Yippee-ippee-ey-ey-ay-yey-yey
I had to crucify some brother today
And I don't dig what you gotta say
So come on and say it
Come on and tell me twice

I said dad you're shabby
You run around and groove like a baggy
You're only here just out of habit
All that's mine you might as well have it
You take ten feet back and then stab it
Spray it on and 'tag it
So sack on me
I can't stand the needy
Get around here if you're asking you're feeling

Yippee-ippee-ey-ey-ay-yey-yey
I had to crucify somebody today
And I don't dig what you gotta say
So come on and say it
Come on and tell me twice

So sack all the needy
I can't stand to leave it
You come around here and you put both your feet in

Yippee-ippee-ey-ey-ay-yey-yey
I had to crucify somebody today
And I don't dig what you gotta say
So go on and say it

Yippee-ippee-ey-ey-ay-yey-yey
I had to crucify some brother today
And I don't hear what you gotta say
So come on and say it
Come on and tell me twice

[stuveltje]

Stu <--- reads and reads and shake her head and laugh:D

[Rui]

Whether or not the justice system chooses to define it as rape or not, I'm sure we all know that a husband can most definately rape his wife.

ummhh not really

[MadMax]

Let me start by saying that I am in fact a bonafide sexual deviant. I've enjoyed all kinds of wierd, kinky sex in my private life and that's unlikely to change any time soon :) We're all porn mongers around here, but I'm willing to be that most adult webmasters like their sex to be good but pretty much "vanilla." Part and parcel of being a genuine deviant is tolerance and understanding of the kinks other people enjoy, even if they're not something you enjoy yourself.

There's an old thread that was dug up over this bit of drama, and I'd like to clarify a post I made there since it's been tied to this issue. A free site was posted that promoted a "sleeping sex" site and many (including myself) said it would get the submitter blacklisted. In fact it did, but it was mostly about how the site was being promoted. The webmaster was coming from the "taking advantage of an unconscious person" angle, not the "I started fucking my girlfriend while she was sleeping" angle. For me these are two entirely different worlds.

I've known women who absolutely love to get woken up in the middle of the night by a stiff shaft sliding into them. I've known women who love to get tied up while they're sleeping and waking up to being bound and getting spanked. I've known women with rape fantasies who like to fight back and get overpowered...as long as they're with a man that they trust and fuck all the time. There are circumstances in which even forced sex is consentual, if it's part and parcel of fulfilling a woman's fantasies or kinks, because at the end of the day if she literally asks for it and enjoys it then it's consentual. This is all good fun between consenting adults, and porn based on stuff like this doesn't cause me any ethical dilemmas as long as it's promoted as consentual.

I signed up for Rage Cash and I'll be promoting them. They've got good looking tours and that "Spanked and Fucked" site looks fantastic. It's hard to find good spanking sites to promote, and there are in fact a ton of women who like to get spanked while they're getting fucked, or sucking cock, or licking pussy, and so on. This site looks like a home run.

I won't be promoting Sleep Assault for a couple reasons, simply because that's my personal preference. I'd list sites promoting it in my "what the fuck" category as long as they promote the site in a consentual context. I'm also going to skip the "mother daughter" site for a variety of reasons, but I can assure you that if I didn't live in the US I'd promote the hell out of it.

The other sites have solid tours and I look forward to the sales as soon as I get the promos up. Rage Cash looks like a great program that was put together by people who know what they're doing and have the balls to go after some "edgy" niches, and I give them a ton of credit for that. |rock|

There was a time when foot fucking was "edge" porn. There's a ton of consentual deviant behavior I've enjoyed the hell out of in private life that I couldn't promote online, and that's just a fact of life.

Live and let live, fuck and let fuck...can't we all just get a bong? |potleaf|

[sue-fl]

Great post MadMax your my hero.... |bow|

[xxxjay]

If some girl came along and tried to give me some pussy while I was sleeping I would be fine with it. I don't like the word rape anyway...I prefer "suprise sex".

Anyhoo, everyone should lighten up -- these are the extreme paycheck guys we are talking about...some of the most straight up guys in the biz IMO. They know what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong.

If you don't like it - don't look at it...

Enough said.

[stuveltje]

i like the extreme niches i dont think the way about it like others do, my hubby always liked when i gave him an blowjob while he sleeps so whats the difference with an woman who sleeps, oke if you think like this: i rape my hubby................ yeah you right and did he liked it, yes he did, its an personal oppinion:D ...........(stu<----- is thingking she is pussing to far now but she is getting tired about some issues, live and let live, promoot what you like and dont promoot what you dont like) you have the choise dont nag just do you thing:)

[emmanuelle]

I don't like the word rape anyway...I prefer "suprise sex".




Please tell me you are joking

[stuveltje]

Please tell me you are jokingi have to say i like the words surprise sex:D....shoot me

[Trixie]

I think pretty much all FANTASIES are fine to mock-up in porn: incest, rape, taboo teens, etc. That being said, I do think there's an obligation to post clear warnings, explain that it's wrong to do those things in real life, that the models all consented and are legal, and the whole thing is staged, etc. Why is that so hard to do?

It boggles my mind that there are always two simple-minded camps on these controversial issues: yes or no. The yes people say, "don't look at it if you don't like it". What the fuck??? As though there are no consequences to young men and women (not to mention STUPID men and women) seeing content that says it's okay to lead to engage in nonconsensual sex and that there are no negative consequences (and yeah, fucking someone while they are asleep is rape, unless they gave consent beforehand). Even if I don't look at stupid tv shows and stupid news programs and stupid porn, there are still ill effects from those things and bad lessons taught that having consequences.

I would love to see a site where gangs of women descended on sleeping men's asses and anally raped them with giant dildos and see all of the misogynists squirming over that one with their double standards. "I'd love to have pussy forced on me while I was sleeping!" So does that mean you won't mind waking up to an unlubricated baseball bat stuffed up your butt?

And then the folks who let Visa and CCBill do their thinking for them: "if Visa doesn't have a problem with it, neither should you". Fantastic. Does that mean if Visa or CCBill says you CAN'T do something you should stop? Guess that means grown women aren't allowed to masturbate or have sex while they're menstruating then, because they won't process payments for my site: http://bloodytrixie.com

So . . . it's okay if a gang of men pisses all over my face, it's okay if someone rapes me in my sleep, it's okay if I fuck a girl with the behavior and appearance of an twelve year old . . . but it's not okay if I diddle myself while I'm on the rag. I'm glad we have Visa and CCBill to clarify my options for me!

Personally I am going to sign up for RageCash because I love the mom and daughter thing. Hot hot hot!! The sleep site is hot too . . . but how hard would it be to post some educational advice and acknowledge that it does, indeed, send a dangerous message to the stupid, the ill-informed, and the assholes? I don't think it should be illegal or blacklisted or condemned, but can't people exercise some decency and common sense by putting the fantasy safely into context?

[stuveltje]

isnt that what we make an fantasie world of porn for surfers?They ask we deliver? dont want to do it..... dont do it......

[Trixie]

i have to say i like the words surprise sex:D....shoot me
You just awoke to find a splintered broomstick inserted in your anus . . . SURPRISE!!! |pink |thumb

[stuveltje]

You just awoke to find a splintered broomstick inserted in your anus . . . SURPRISE!!! |pink |thumbyeah rigth oh thats an new niche:D......ewwwwwww i get better then an splintered broomstick hell where did you get your fantasies |shocking| :D

[furrygirl]

In some sense, I can appreciate sites like Little April or Meat Holes or non-consensual fantasy sites. (So long as the women know what they're getting into before hand, and are paid well.) I think it is important to have legal porn featuring consenting adults that pushes boundaries, because it's very much a free speech issue.

But, aside from philosophy, like Meat Holes and Little April, I don't think they make the collective "us" look good, and it's not the sort of thing I would want to promote. I have never believed that what is legal (or Visa-approved) dictates morality, so saying "hey, Visa's okay with it" is just an inane sig-post answer to an ethical debate.

I think lots of sites play on the elements of consent and coercion. (How how drunk girl sites? Or the whole theme of "this dumb college girl desperately needed money to pay her bills, so she agreed to suck my dick for cash"?) For example, what's the real difference between Sleep Assault's issue of consent and that on http://www.herfirstdp.com ? Quotes:

"It didn't take much convincing to get Lizzie to agree to fuck us, but she didn't realize that she was going to be our next DP conquest!! She wanted it slow at first but once she felt both rods drilling her at the same time she begged for it hard and fast!!"

"Women like to act like they don't like sex. Chrissy was no different. She had a bite like an alligator but as soon as we started talking her language -taking two cocks- she let down her guard. We had her screaming like an alley cat by the time we got done with her!"

You could argue that the Her First DP is saying that if you start doing something a woman doesn't want, she'll fuss a bit, but then be begging for more. I'm not trying to pick only on them, it's just that they also advertise here, and I've never seen any comments about their ethics.

I wanted to add after MadMax's post that I'm not trying to be a crusader for "vanilla" porn. My personal issue with these sites is not about "Do some women like to be sleep-fucked?" or "Are some women really submissives?", it's a matter of how the content is framed and pushed to the surfer. For example, one of my boys is the only guy who I'll be submissive with. We sometimes get into hair-pulling, rough behavior, "fantasy force", etc. But, if we shot photos of it, and put text with it saying that I was being raped, I wouldn't want that on my site. I'm not being raped, I'm with a very trusted partner, and I can say no at any time. (As all good kinky play goes.) When you remove the "real life boring details" of consent, trust, and personal preference, I think that's when it gets iffy in my book.

As my fellow bleeding lady Trixie said, maybe sites should post warnings, talk about BDSM rules, and have some form of responsibility to the surfer's sexual education. Yes, people do look to porn to see what to do and how to do it, for better or worse.

[Cool1g]

i ran across a site recently where 'supposedly' the girls were drugged with GHB or roofies or whatever and then they guys had sex with them....that seems a bit worse to me.....

[susanna]

As my fellow bleeding lady Trixie said, maybe sites should post warnings, talk about BDSM rules, and have some form of responsibility to the surfer's sexual education. Yes, people do look to porn to see what to do and how to do it, for better or worse.


Very nice posts ladies... I have sworn off posting this issue but I wanted to make a comment that came to mind when you said that it doesnt take much to make the site "fantasy" and even to try to educate surfers in BDSM rules etc. I am also a kinkster and the one rule that is not broken is consent, even if the consent is "do what you want to me" and very rough sex etc ensues...the difference is a submissive has a safe word and its followed and the submissive is awake and able to say no.

Now what I really wanted to say... people keep saying "if you dont like it dont look at it" so if you post the fantasy explanation or the BDSM education etc... people can choose to read it or not.

It cant hurt anything if it really is about consentual sex fantasy. Refusing to do this in the very least says it all.

[Wazza]

Someone from Verotel will be with you momentarily ;)

[xxxjay]

Please tell me you are joking

Of course.

[spazlabz]

i watched pretty much all the motherdaughterfuck videos all the way through and I do not recall seeing either of them actually touching each other in a sexual way... that's not what the site is about. the sites is about a horny ass MILF fucking every guy in town and bringing her 'sometimes reluctant' daughter along..... solid content and is going to make a lot of people a lot of money.......
there was a movie in the 80s... standard type stuff for the time, and I cannot remember the name of it right now for all my trying. But in it there is a guy in high school (delivers groceries on his bike) who has a hot girlfriend... who happens to have a very HOT mom... the Mom is constantly flirting with the guy and in one scene you see someone coming into the house, walking up the stairs and you hear the sounds of sex going on in a room. Your lead to believe it is the guy and mom having sex about to be walked in on by the girl but SURPRISE its actually the guy and girl going at it and Mom walks in........ very big play on a lot of guys early fantasies of sleeping with some girls sexy mom.... like i said, this site will make some killer bucks


spaz

[koolkat]

If anybody wants to read some other fucked up laws, check out
http://www.md.lp.org/weird_laws.html
or
http://www.dribbleglass.com/subpages/strange/sexlaws.htm
or
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/fun23.htm
or
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/men/sexlaws.jsp

[Jel]

All I have to say is that motherdaughterfuck I have no problem with, and got my 1st sale yesterday. Good site, nice tour (although I will say I've made a effort to point out there is no inc*st, as of course RageCash have also done :) ) Sleep thingummy- not for me, but that won't stop me promoting mdf.

Of no interest to anyone I know, but that's my take, same as some EP sites - some I will, some I won't, doesn't mean to say I think any are 'illegal' (yep, quote marks on purpose), rather some I feel OK with, some I don't. Never would I jump on my high horse and slag off those I *don't* feel comfy with, as I know they're legal.

I personally don't like the blood sites mentioned either here, or another thread (can't remember) but I choose not to promote them, same as those that choose to do so do just that - choose. If it isn't illegal, or outright sick (scat, vomit, snot, and so forth, even where it's legal is just sick in my own book lol) then if you can sleep at night, and can stomach it, go for it. You want to go for bloodsport, hell, sincere good wishes :) Just because I personally wouldn't, no need for me to have any ill will to those who do whatsoever.

As I say, unlikely to bother/affect anyone in the slightest, but just my own personal take on things.

One last thing, I'll agree with a few others the sleep site could and maybe *should* have been named something different, but... the content would still be the same no?

Fantasy folks, same as the rest of the shit we sell.

And before it happens, no, I don't think *any* fantasy goes, and yes, a disclaimer saying 'this shit is made up etc. etc.' would be good.

I Guess that makes 4 cents :)

[stuveltje]

All I have to say is that motherdaughterfuck I have no problem with, and got my 1st sale yesterday. Good site, nice tour (although I will say I've made a effort to point out there is no inc*st, as of course RageCash have also done :) ) Sleep thingummy- not for me, but that won't stop me promoting mdf.

Of no interest to anyone I know, but that's my take, same as some EP sites - some I will, some I won't, doesn't mean to say I think any are 'illegal' (yep, quote marks on purpose), rather some I feel OK with, some I don't. Never would I jump on my high horse and slag off those I *don't* feel comfy with, as I know they're legal.

I personally don't like the blood sites mentioned either here, or another thread (can't remember) but I choose not to promote them, same as those that choose to do so do just that - choose. If it isn't illegal, or outright sick (scat, vomit, snot, and so forth, even where it's legal is just sick in my own book lol) then if you can sleep at night, and can stomach it, go for it. You want to go for bloodsport, hell, sincere good wishes :) Just because I personally wouldn't, no need for me to have any ill will to those who do whatsoever.

As I say, unlikely to bother/affect anyone in the slightest, but just my own personal take on things.

One last thing, I'll agree with a few others the sleep site could and maybe *should* have been named something different, but... the content would still be the same no?

Fantasy folks, same as the rest of the shit we sell.

And before it happens, no, I don't think *any* fantasy goes, and yes, a disclaimer saying 'this shit is made up etc. etc.' would be good.

I Guess that makes 4 cents :)grin jel you dont like to promoot the snot thing????(stu is laughing) and yep i do promoot vomit(although the dutch sponsor fucked me and i have an nice surprice for him soon, he has his company nearby:D) i dont have problems with strange or extreme or banned things (hey i have my limits too) but i am not gonna think about that anal is foridden in some states, using sex toys at other states, if i dont have an problem with the niche i promoot them and dont lett people say its the money, no its an sport to make the money, i still keep wondering why i work my butt off for 15+ hours a day .because i dont need the money, its an sport for me, can i sell that niche (and again i have my limits, but i go far) i still do respect the deciscions ( or how you write that) of other people not to promoot an certain niche, but please dont nag about it if others doo( he and i dont say that to you jel, i talk to the public, you knw i love you too, stu<---is sucha whore):D

[ArtWilliams]

Sex fantasies are not "politcally correct". People have weird shit going on in their heads and porn is the visual depiction of these thoughts. As long as the models are of legal age and have given "informed consent" then it should be allowed to be sold. Having said that, I would not promote a site that offended my personal tastes. I believe in freedom of speech, even if it is speech that I don't happen to like.

My two cents condensed down to one.

--- art

[th3g4me]

This is the most reading I have done since I finished my degree. :P

It is fantasy I don’t see the issue here. Some one who doesn’t approve, and wanted it taken down would just be pushing their opinion on some one else if the sites are legal.

Just like the people who think record keeping should be so complicated half of the web masters should be forced to go out of business.

I thought all of these people were the extreme religious, or members of the Bush administration.

I would hope the surfer knows that it is fantasy.

[2ndChance]

Okay so I new to this stuff and I have to say. So long and the acotrs and models know what theyare getting into so what it's entertainment and art as far as I am concerned.

I am throughly convinced that a great deal of society when it comes to sex general is (how do you spell it) pschytsofrentic. And it appears to me that part of the adult industry is too.

Now I like the idea of the sleeping site but the vids on the tour turned me a bit as it didn't show a waking or dreaming gal getting into it. It showed guy fucks gal with eyes closed and she doesn't respond poor guy just dosen't have what it takes lol . hmmm.

The spaking site hot damn ...Yeah I'll admit it I like the extreme shit does it mean I am gonna go out and start fucking my gal in her sleep no does it mean I am going to go out and start spaking my gal when she going down. no It's fantasy fantasy isn't reality though some fantasies are better live ;-)

Pay no mind to me I am a "newbie" I guess

[furrygirl]

Okay so I new to this stuff and I have to say. So long and the acotrs and models know what theyare getting into so what it's entertainment and art as far as I am concerned.

I am throughly convinced that a great deal of society when it comes to sex general is (how do you spell it) pschytsofrentic. And it appears to me that part of the adult industry is too.

I don't really see how discussing sexual ethics is schizophrenic, perhaps you misunderstand the characteristics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenic#Diagnosis_and_presentation_.28signs_and_symptoms.29) of disorder, or you're just trying to say "society has a weird attitude about sex" using a polysyllabic word.

Anyhow, my point in this discussion was that it's not simply, "are the models really being sexually assaulted or not?", I see it as an issue of how the content of some fantasy sites are framed.

You can and should have hot fantasy play that still discusses boundaries, consent, and safety. I'm not anti-fantasy site in the least bit, but I do think it's important to make clear that it is strictly fantasy. For the "pure fantasy" crowd, it shouldn't be a worry to "ruin the fantasy" with a disclaimer, right? But for people who really want to break into a woman's home and rape her while she's asleep, if a disclaimer ruins the fantasy for them, do you care? In my mind, a disclaimer and some honest kink advice benefits the best of the crowd, and keeps away the people I wouldn't want to be catering to in the first place.

To try another angle/question on the content framing issue, let's pretend that another hotly debated site, Little April, was worded differently.

Let's say it started out with a consenting, paid, over-18 model. All the same type of stuff was shot, she left with a smile on her face after a job well done. That's the point, according to a lot of people here. "Hey, she's legal, she got paid, and she's happy with the work, right?"

But, would everyone feel the same way if the text selling the site claimed that she was 14 years old and that masturbating for her horny daddy? I don't know if that would legal or not in the US, but *theoretically* speaking, would people promote a site that looked like CP, talked like CP, arguably encouraged CP, but wasn't actually CP?

Sometimes, copy *is* king.

[spazlabz]

...using a polysyllabic word...
|jester| |bow| |rock|
That's intelligent AND funny as hell
I think I love you LOL

[susanna]

But, would everyone feel the same way if the text selling the site claimed that she was 14 years old and that masturbating for her horny daddy? I don't know if that would legal or not in the US, but *theoretically* speaking, would people promote a site that looked like CP, talked like CP, arguably encouraged CP, but wasn't actually CP?

Sometimes, copy *is* king.


Very good question but no one is listening, they are off believing in their justifications.

|huh

[Lemmy]

Very good question but no one is listening, they are off believing in their justifications.

|huhIt's not that we're not listening, but we need a break once in a while. Besides, what's the point in discussing; anyone who doesn't agree with you is a closet rapist at heart anyway.

[Surfn]

It's not that we're not listening, but we need a break once in a while. Besides, what's the point in discussing; anyone who doesn't agree with you is a closet rapist at heart anyway.
Amen!!

[susanna]

It's not that we're not listening, but we need a break once in a while. Besides, what's the point in discussing; anyone who doesn't agree with you is a closet rapist at heart anyway.


No one has ever said that people who promote the sleeping woman assault site were rapists. I do believe they are misguided, possibly have not read the text on the tour and instead they have read the justifications for the site. Then there is those that think making an "entertainment" site about hurting women is a good thing?

I personally am concerned with line crossing becoming the adult nets downfall (visa could care one day) and 2. what effect this has on the young people growing up.

Someone who slips a cock into their sleeping wife and does so because they know she doesnt mind has not raped her, he KNOWS she doesnt mind, she has somehow given consent.

This tour does not speak to consent in any way...and that is not what the owners are trying to tell you.

[swedguy]

Swedguy's 2 cents!

Only thing that turns me on related to this thread is furrygirl's posts |flowers|

[Lemmy]

No one has ever said that people who promote the sleeping woman assault site were rapists. I do believe they are misguided, possibly have not read the text on the tour and instead they have read the justifications for the site. Then there is those that think making an "entertainment" site about hurting women is a good thing?

I personally am concerned with line crossing becoming the adult nets downfall (visa could care one day) and 2. what effect this has on the young people growing up.

Someone who slips a cock into their sleeping wife and does so because they know she doesnt mind has not raped her, he KNOWS she doesnt mind, she has somehow given consent.

This tour does not speak to consent in any way...and that is not what the owners are trying to tell you.That's posibly one of the most condescending posts so far in this discussion. How 'bout this: I've seen the site, I've read everything on it and I think it's just fine the way it is. I've come to this conclusion entirely unassisted, because after all I do have a mind of my own and am capable of producing an independent thought. And I still disagree with you. I also believe that rape and any kind of coersion is wrong, sexually or otherwise. I also consider myself a reasonably descent and moral person. Is that so hard to understand?

[2ndChance]

Hi Furrygirl

Yes it was more of a ""society has a weird attitude about sex" using a polysyllabic. ( My communication social skills are not very good I work hard at being a good communicator somtimes my choice of words arenot the best. But when I use basic I didn't mean to offend)

I agree with you about the comparison of content and copy with the little april site. copy is what makes the fantasy artifically real.

[Stever]

I have only glanced at the site in question and have not thouroughly read all the promo text for it. And I don't need to. The one word in the title is all that's needed to make it EXTREMELY questionable. Will the site owners consider changing to title? who knows? I'm sure they are at least rethinking things a bit considering the flack the site is receiving (even as the cash flows in). They may very well get themselves in some trouble with that site (i dont have a clue where the law lies on this or if Visa will have a problem with it)

Susanna, I and many others are on your side on this but I find many of your posts very poorly worded. You are getting your point accross but you could be a little more tactfull. Otherwise people will just start skipping over your posts (some may already be doing so)


Oh yeah, and pass the |popcorn|

[furrygirl]

Swedguy's 2 cents!

Only thing that turns me on related to this thread is furrygirl's posts |flowers|

Uh, thank you? :)

[susanna]

I have only glanced at the site in question and have not thouroughly read all the promo text for it. And I don't need to. The one word in the title is all that's needed to make it EXTREMELY questionable. Will the site owners consider changing to title? who knows? I'm sure they are at least rethinking things a bit considering the flack the site is receiving (even as the cash flows in). They may very well get themselves in some trouble with that site (i dont have a clue where the law lies on this or if Visa will have a problem with it)

Susanna, I and many others are on your side on this but I find many of your posts very poorly worded. You are getting your point accross but you could be a little more tactfull. Otherwise people will just start skipping over your posts (some may already be doing so)


Oh yeah, and pass the |popcorn|


ahhhh NOPE!!! I am purposely being abusive to ahhhh MEN??? to get my point across about respecting others.

Why the fuck should I respect anyone that doesn't respect women enough to consider that they might just like to have some consent.

I know that people are complaining about condescending posts and the like, they are assuming I am talking to them. I am not making blanket statements, many people already agree with me and some chose to post about it. Others don't post but speak privately about it. To each their own.

Still others come up with poorly thought out or worded explanations as to why they think that site is legal, not offensive to them (did they wonder if it is offensive to women? or do they care?)

I don't give a shit what people do in a consentual context but I will express my distaste and concern for non-consentual porn which people believe more and more to be "real"ity porn.

Heh people really do this shit.....I for one have a conscience...enough to speak out and say when I think something is going too far.

Got lots of attention so far right? The site owners are also sitting back saying "bad attention is just as great at getting the word out as good attention" everyone knows this marketing fact...just look at any post on GFY


You do what you gotta do and I make just as many apologies for hurting some feelings ha ha ha as rage does for making a violence against women site.

[Surfn]

|deadhorse |zzzzzzzzz

[furrygirl]

Susanna, really, sometimes less is more, you know?

I find ethical and political discussions to be the most interesting things that come up on boards, and like other people here, I'm "on your side" in many ways, but it's hard to get people to listen to your side when you're saying that everyone who's not avidly agreeing with you supports rape. And I'm a *chick* saying that this time around, so maybe it might sounds more palatable coming from me.

I don't agree at all with the idea of "assaulting" sleeping women, but I also personally like fantasy, roleplay, and kink with my sex and porn, so long as it is clearly defined as fantasy. My problem with the site is about context and content-framing, which make all the difference in my mind. (Context is a great topic for banter, and I think anyone profiting from content that is not of themselves naked has sometime to say about how they frame their porn.)

I do think this is an open-ended discussion, and I'd love to see it keep going, so it's a shame that in your passion for women's rights, I think you're killing the thread.

Trixie (also female) and I both proposed that non-consensual fantasy sites provide some sort of disclaimer and make it abundantly clear to surfers that it's just roleplay. I see it as a good chance for webmasters to provide a smidge of education to their surfers about kinky lifestyles and about the important elements of trust, consent, and communication.

I think that roleplay is really fucking hot, and as an adult, I can see roleplay porn and say, "this is not real, these are actors", and it can still be fun. I think a move away from text that seemingly glorifies "real" non-consensual sex and a move towards "fantasy roleplay" is a good idea, and as I said before, attracts the real "fantasy" folk, and repels the scum you don't want to do business with anyhow. It seems like a win-win to me.

Do you have a sort of, well, positive solutions? Or, are you saying that any portrayal on non-consensual sex shouldn't exist at all? Content, or copy?

[Linkster]

After much thought and looking over my stories category on my link list (that was an eye-opener) and seeing that Rage has put a disclaimer on the mother-daughter tour - I believe I will be starting a little promoting of them :)

Being very old, it probably just takes me longer to get things to sink in |dizzy|

[docholly]

I've been following this post from the beginning reading all the pros and cons.. and i have the same internal feeling that i have when i hear GWB speak.. either your are "for" everything I say or you are not a patriot.. etc..

What, for me, it boils down to is that I have a choice. I, as a wm, can choose to promote or not promote sites that I personally find violates my ethics or just that I don't think I'd be able to do a good job at writing copy for. There are 1000's of sites out that that I can do a GOOD job promoting.

For example: I promote Trixie and all the sites that fall under WebWhoreBucks. I love her stuff, i love the sites, i love the writing and i love promoting her. (see my siggy if you want to promote her too)

BUT i do not promote her "bloody trixie" site myself. i do post her FHG on my TGP but I don't actively promote that site. I don't feel I could do justice to the copy I'd be writing. I don't feel I'd be able to portray that in such a manner that would respect what she is trying to do and sell the surfer at the same time. It's my option.

Likewise with RAGE.. there are some sites I instantly took to and some that I'll leave alone. This doesn't make me anti-fem, or promoting rape because i'm selling their Fucked Tits or Creamed feet sites.. just my preference as a wm.

Before the board crash a few years ago..i'd written a post on ethics among adult webmasters over a site i found while surfing that showed big "african' men in tribal dress with pictures stolen from the movie Shaka Zulu, fucking little white women they'd 'carried' off to their village.. I found it disgusting and was pretty angry about their stealing the pictures from Shaka. But what i realized after my anger settled down was the best way for me personally to 'rage' against this was to NOT promote that sponsor AND to portray interracial love in a good and positive way.. choices..

|blinky|

hmm for some reason i'm very wordy today..

|pimpin

[susanna]

Susanna, really, sometimes less is more, you know?

I don't agree at all with the idea of "assaulting" sleeping women, but I also personally like fantasy, roleplay, and kink with my sex and porn, so long as it is clearly defined as fantasy. My problem with the site is about context and content-framing, which make all the difference in my mind.

Do you have a sort of, well, positive solutions? Or, are you saying that any portrayal on non-consensual sex shouldn't exist at all? Content, or copy?

If you have read all my posts then you know I dont have a problem with fantasy, I do however have a problem with the fantasy being about non-consentual sex. Its not thread killing to "say it like it is". You have chosen to keep this thread going too ha ha ha

I have also said that I would love to see a disclaimer (linkster, the mother daughter site is not an issue to me, consenting adults, related or not, can do as they please ADULTS...incest to me is about children...again my opinion but I am not varying from what my opinion is on consent and non-consent).

This is not about womens rights...I have never said it was about womens rights. At the moment it is womens rights being trampled on. I am not a feminist. I do not want women placed above men ya da ya da. I would like to see a smidge of consentualism.

I have also said in a post that a domain change would be half the battle. Of course this is not terribly hard but it means admitting something which I am not sure that the site owners will admit. Time will tell I guess.

I agree with some others that it could just get them in trouble one day which everyone else will pipe in and say "so its their business what do you care". I care that my business will be damaged by people pushing the limit.

I had a conversation with someone recently about how fuckin hot the site would be if they removed the non-consent. If they talked about sleeping-sex vs. sexual assault. Most everyone has had someone wake them up during sleep by slowly caressing, sucking or whatever. It is hot, it is pleasure. Heck I would buy em a new domain ha ha ha

The text still talks of non-consentualism which is not even the somnophilia kink. It is the sadist kink, the rapist kink what ever, its about harming women and taking what they want whether the gal wants it or not.

I have offered to re-write some text for them, no strings attached, if they didnt think it was hot they didnt have to use it.

I say portrayal of non-consent is never appropriate. Its not even a fantasy to have non-consentual sex. Sorry. It is true deviant behaviour.

I might even like a front of tour solo disclaimer that says "this is fantasy role play, we intend no harm, we dont want you to hurt women" etc.

What are your positive solutions?

[Coolegg]

The URL says it all... sleepASSAULT.com. And the text on the tour makes it a cut-and-dry case, IMO. It's not a sex-while-she's-sleeping fantasy site; it's a sexaul-ASSAULT-while-she's-not-conscious fantasy site.

There's no getting away from the word ASSAULT in the url and title, legally or ethically.

Not cool RageCash, IMO.

[swedguy]

as·sault

1.
A violent physical or verbal attack.

2.
a. A military attack, such as one launched against a fortified area or place.
b. The concluding stage of an attack in which close combat occurs with the enemy.

3. Law.
a. An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another.
b. The act or an instance of unlawfully threatening or attempting to injure another.

4.
a. Law. Sexual assault.
b. The crime of rape.

[Jel]

Still others come up with poorly thought out or worded explanations as to why they think that site is legal, not offensive to them (did they wonder if it is offensive to women? or do they care?)

How about fem-dom sites that are offensive to guys? CBT type stuff, etc.? How about anal sites that are offensive to me? How about *any* site that is offensive to *me*? I think its pretty plain here, some are comfy, some are not. Not comfy? Don't promote it. Comfy? Promote it.

Without getting into the whole 'yes but no but' argument, is this site the worst thing any of us have seen? Really? I highly doubt it. I'm by no means as articulate and clever as some of the posters here, but fuck, as was said earlier, I do have *some* semblance of a brain, and sure as hell can make my own choice(s). This thread is on page 4 - wtf? We all sell fantasies, we all sell bullshit.

What another chooses to promote I may not agree with, and what I promote (be it watersports or such) someone else may not agree with. Last I heard, if it's legal, then free speech had a play in there somewhere, much as those of us who disagree with whatever particular aspect of that may not like it.

'2 cents smiley here'

[furrygirl]

What are your positive solutions?

I've made two wordy posts with positive solutions, if you haven't taken the time to read them, I'm not spelling it out again. (Or maybe you have, since you're essentially just re-hashing what I wrote.)

I think you're just getting defensive with that last comment, like you don't want to be upstaged or something. I'm not trying to upstage you, I'd just rather shift this useful thread away from a battle of the sexes.

[Chop Smith]

Meow...

[spazlabz]

Let's not miss the fact that RageCash.com has gotten absolutely golden press here. Whichever side your on... or even if you dont have a side... you won't soon forget RageCash and its not because of the skin......
controversy = gold
IMHO

[furrygirl]

controversy = gold
IMHO
For the most part, yes. But I don't think any sponsor wants to be the next E--- C---, lots of press or not.

[Surfn]

furrygirl

Take a break and submit another gallery to me :)

[furrygirl]

BUT i do not promote her "bloody trixie" site myself. i do post her FHG on my TGP but I don't actively promote that site. I don't feel I could do justice to the copy I'd be writing. I don't feel I'd be able to portray that in such a manner that would respect what she is trying to do and sell the surfer at the same time.
I think this deserves highlighting.

I think most people promote things they have no idea how to sell, and it applies extra for amateur or small niche sites. So many of my affiliates sell me as a "horny teen who sucks cock", but when a surfer arrives at my site, it's not at all "teen", and I have little hardcore content. People really should stick to what they know, which is going to benefit everyone's bottom line in the long run.

[susanna]

I've made two wordy posts with positive solutions, if you haven't taken the time to read them, I'm not spelling it out again. (Or maybe you have, since you're essentially just re-hashing what I wrote.)

I think you're just getting defensive with that last comment, like you don't want to be upstaged or something. I'm not trying to upstage you, I'd just rather shift this useful thread away from a battle of the sexes.


I have read your posts yes, infact I commented on them being well worded. I have said all those things before you did, there are other threads. You asked me what my positive solutions are...I rehashed what I have already said ha ha ha

You sound like your getting defensive now. We might as well quit this questioning each other since I think its taking this thread in a direction away from the point of it... and oh my is it thread killing?

Back to the regular scheduled discussion of the inappropriateness of having "fantasy sites" on the net about non-consentual sex.

[furrygirl]

Susanna

It's hard to have a rational, productive debate with someone who can't even decide what they're trying to convince me of. You're really all over the place with your posts, and I don't think I'm the only one who's a bit bewildered.

On the one hand, you're accusing anyone who doesn't hate Sleep Assault of being rapist-sympathizers and trying to profit from hurting women, and on the other, you find fantasy sleep-fucking is extremely sexy.

In the same paragraph, you avail yourself of being labeled a "feminist" and say that this debate has nothing to do with "women's rights", but follow it with, "At the moment it is womens rights being trampled on."

You say that you think a disclaimer and a domain name change would be a good solution, but then you say that all non-consensual fantasies are "never appropriate" and "true deviant behaviour."

Which is it? What are you talking about? Can you, in 200 words or less, define the problem with Sleep Assault, provide a solution, and a plan for how a fix could be implemented? Think of it like a debate class assignment or something. Or should the company just go outside and smash all their hard drives and start making romantic erotica to suit your site?

It's also hard to take someone seriously who ends or segments their sentences with "ha ha ha" or ellipses and doesn't know the correct spelling of what it is (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=consentual) that they're arguing about. (Yes, I'm a grammar asshole, because I believe that if one is trying to convey their ideas in a medium of works, they should know how to write. If one is trying to communicate ideas using photos, for example, I expect better than 320x240 web cam stills.) You've repeatedly bragged about your "high IQ" and how you're the smart, conscientious one here, so act like it. Know what it is that you're trying to convey to us, keep on topic, and stick to your guns.

[RawAlex]

furrygirl, a simple question: Is the picture of a nude 12 year old with a disclaimer that "this isn't porn, it's art" make you feel any better about the content?

Sex is an act between two consenting adults. There is no visible way to determine the consent on this site. In fact, they play up the specific terms that it isn't consentual, that is what makes it so exciting.

It is very hard to justify a site that encourages and panders to would be or wannabe rapists.

Alex

[Chop Smith]

Anyone making book?

[Surfn]

Anyone making book?LOL

[furrygirl]

It is very hard to justify a site that encourages and panders to would be or wannabe rapists.
Where have I said I like the site or am seeking to defend porn that pushes "assault" as sexy? Just because I disagree with Susanna's own brand of angry finger-pointing rants doesn't mean that I'm defending rape. (Yet again, why is this discussion all "you're either rabidly against it or your a basically a rapist"?) I have repeatedly stated that I disagree with the site and that I think as it stands now, it caters to shitty people and encourages shitty behavior. I'm not "justifying" copy that tells men that raping sleeping women is hot, I don't get where you read that in my posts.

The positive two cents I'm offering in terms of the site has been about changing the copy and the theme. I could say, "Rage Cash should smash all their hard drives and run away in shame. We should go burn their offices." Since I imagine that the company put a lot of money into making their sites, I figured I'd make the suggestion that the they could rework the site and make something better out of it.

I don't have a problem with role play and kink when clearly presented as role play. Arguing that fantasy force or domination role play is the same thing as rape is incredibly insulting to any one who has actually been raped. As a rational adult, when presented with entertainment which is packaged as fiction, I understand that it is not a guide for action. A movie I watched recently involved a jilted lover killing his ex, but does that mean I'm a misogynist who advocates shooting women who leave you?

Are you really saying that two consenting adults engaging in role play or BDSM in porn is on the same level as CP or actual rape? Just this morning I engaged in some naughty talk while fucking my boyfriend, I guess I'm as bad as people who rape children.

[swedguy]

Anyone making book?
No, but I'm saving it for masturbatory purposes.

I have a Debates and Articulacy Fetish.

[Wazza]

Anyone making book?I'm singing the never ending shit fight la la la, la la la, la la laaaaaaaaaaaaa

[sue-fl]

No, but I'm saving it for masturbatory purposes.

I have a Debates and Articulacy Fetish.

Damn swedguy that totally cracked me up!! Too funny! Thanks for the huge laugh this morning!

[susanna]

Not even commenting on the attack from furry girl. What is the point !!!

I am very pleased to see that rage cash has changed the text on their sleep assault tour! Congrats to them for hearing so many of us in these threads and/or thinking this thru a bit.

That site is very hot now! the title is still a bother but with the text change it is fantasy and the the text change was done very well! I might just put a few links up in some of my hardcore fetish areas.

Incase some of you do not know, I am not a kid, and I am not just about couples sex and for women sex. I have a server full of fetish, some of it very hardcore. I have no reason to change my signature and so I dont bother.

Oh and clerification on consentual...it is a very canadian english spelling of the word. I make zero apologies for spelling errors but since furry girl thought it necessary to educate all of you, I thought I should add that it is an appropriate spelling. You can search yahoo and get 173,000 pages based on this term.

Anyway, Thank You to Rage Cash for changing the sleep assault tour.

[Fonz]

yawn |yawn|

[whitey]

I agree with Fonz that this is a bit of a yawn.

I do, however, wish to make one observation.

Many films are about fantasy, some of them violent. If any of us actually did the things that are protrayed in many films, we would be jailed. Maybe I come from a different, more permissible era, than most here, but I can remember when Straw Dogs was released. If any of you here are old enough to remember that movie, it was quite controversial - and quite disturbing.

Regardless of its level of controversy or discomfort, it was still made, released and shown in theatres.

I guess I just can't get too worked up over the production of fantasy sites. Personally, I would not promote the sleeping woman site as it was originally released because it made me uncomfortable. The mother daughter site, if I were still promoting alot of porn, would be one of my top sites already, assuredly (anyway, most incest related laws that are geared toward adults are based on sex between men and women because of the obvious genetic risks involved in a pregnancy). Anyway, I don't see the mother/daughter tag teams that have been on Jerry Stringer heading off to jail.

Mostly, I am simply surprised by how uptight some people who make their coin pushing porn are. When people produce a publication on the net dealing with an issue that has been dealt with theatrically and in literature, I just don't get it. The right of free speech is important and always protected for the simple reason that people who are uncomfortable with it will try to shut it down, and I am somewhat disconerted seeing pornographers of all people slinging judgements about other people's fantasies and publications. Other than child porn or the active production of real imagery that violates others rights, I really don't understand the issue of "ethics" in production content if you are involved in an artistic or entertainment business.

[furrygirl]

Not even commenting on the attack from furry girl. What is the point !!!
Susanna: your Canadian spelling notwithstanding, you seriously need to take a writing class. You can have the most impassioned, brilliant concept to share with us, but that can't be conveyed if you have the writing skills of a little kid. Sorry, but as I said before, how can anyone take seriously your proud touts of having a "high IQ" when your sentence structure is all over the place and you can't even seem to decide what you're talking about. (I wouldn't even pick on you so much if you hadn't bragged about having a high IQ, BTW.)

Here's a quick lesson:

Ellipsis, those little dots traditionally in clusters of three, are not for ending or segmenting a sentence with, unless you are quoting someone and skipping over some of the source material, and then they should probably have brackets around the ellipsis to show that they were not in the original text. Unless, of course, you're citing material APA style, in which case you would not use brackets. |rock|

Plus, I imagine that even in the cold frozen north of Canada, they teach you people to end questions with a question mark, not three exclamations.

[urb]

Here's a quick lesson:

Ellipsis, those little dots traditionally in clusters of three, are not for ending or segmenting a sentence with, unless you are quoting someone and skipping over some of the source material, and then they should probably have brackets around the ellipsis to show that they were not in the original text. Unless, of course, you're citing material APA style, in which case you would not use brackets.

I think you'll find that ellipsis can also be used to show a pause in the flow of a sentence.

[Lemmy]

Ellipsis, schmellipsis, when did grammar and splelign become such an issue anyway?

[Ms Naughty]

are not for ending or segmenting a sentence with

"Excuse me, where is the library at?"
"Here at Harvard, we never end a sentence with a preposition."
"O.K. Excuse me, where is the library at, asshole?"

I can't find the "glass houses" smiley. LOL

[furrygirl]

Scrotum, the reason I'm harping on Susanna is because she's bragged about how smart she is and even said that she has a high IQ. If someone was bragging about what a brilliant webmaster they were, and all their pages were filled with broken links and image sources were going to their C drives, I'd make fun or them more than I would a newbie who wouldn't know any better. I've never claimed to be a perfect writer, and like everyone else, I screw up on spelling and grammar sometimes. I know you want to defend your comrade against the evil tyrant Furry Girl, but even you must know that you'd be up all night outlining the writing mistakes she's made on a single thread.

If we want to get into real glasses houses, and I had the time, I'd be happy to construct *yet another* analysis of why the porn made by your kind is some of the most offensive, anti-woman, and flat-out sexist I've ever seen. Jeez, chicks, you're about as glass house at is gets when it comes to critiquing the messages sent by porn.

Go focus on writing "Obedient Christian Housewives Weekly" or something, because I don't like any smut that marginalizes and stereotypes women, be it made by a man or a woman. Whether a site says that women like to be raped, or that they are so frail that they can only tolerate thinking about sex in "romance" fantasies, they're both saying that women are feeble, submissive creatures who hate sex. Women don't hate sex or need love to have sex, but I suppose some of you prefer making "porn" sites that are frighteningly in synch with the most repressed, right-wing views of female sexuality.

I'm a chick, I like fucking, and I don't need true love and gentle fonts and soft pink to fuck. I don't think I'm alone. And, I don't need anyone telling me that I'm some kind of backwards freakish deviant for not toeing your line of "what women want".

[Ms Naughty]

ROFL |pokefun| Now come on Furrygirl, you left yourself wide open there. I couldn't resist.

I've got an English teacher's diploma on the wall. I like to see people write nicely. But this is a webmaster board not an essay competition. I gave up marking people's work ages ago. Now I just try and get the gist of what they're trying to say and respond to that.

You need to relax. Go back to work making your own special brand of porn. We're done here.

Or do you plan to call me a moron again? I love it when you get intellectual in your comebacks.

By the way, if anyone else bothers to read this, you may want to read my long, detailed and quite comprehensive responses to Furrygirl's rather rabid and completely inaccurate assertions about the nature of my particular porn niche here (http://forums.femalewebmasters.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3349&perpage=10&pagenumber=1) . I don't normally link to other boards but this will simply save me from writing a six page essay in reply on GG&J.

We've had this conversation. We didn't agree. We're done.

[selena]

Christ in the morning, is this still going on?

I will sum up my thoughts in one tidy little post.

I do not see a thing wrong with any of the Rage Cash sites.

Porn isn't about being pc.

As long as it is legal, promote what you are comfortable with promoting.

There's always going to be someone who doesn't think you should promote a niche.

And it wouldn't matter if all we did was push sites full of nothing but missionary sex between married couples, we are still making our living from the pornography industry.

We're never going to win brownie points for that from the straight world.

[Cleo]

OMG we need to start using and writing proper English? I lived my preteens in the northeast and raised in the south with the Latins so I guess I'm fubarded.

As far as this thread goes I only have a problem with their sleep assault site and really don't care what other's opinions are.

[Wazza]

I am the very model of a modern Major General |pink

[nekrom]

Todays Fact. Money can't buy free advertising. :D

-N

[Kenny B!]

I no speaka ze engrish, but can read and speel:

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg
The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at
Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a
wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be
in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed
it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid! deos not raed
ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I
awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt!

[Cleo]

I'm taking beginners Spanish and it is just totally messing up my English grammar and spelling even worse then it was already.

[Surfn]

I no speaka ze engrish, but can read and speel:

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg
The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at
Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a
wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be
in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed
it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid! deos not raed
ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I
awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt!This is easier to read than most of text in some of my submits |monkey

[furrygirl]

Yes, Scrotum, I still think you're an idiot. I stand by that, I'm not going to back-peddle and cry and beg forgiveness before the gods for my meanie behavior.

I called you a moron when the discussion got to the point that you were so desperately grasping as straws to attack me with that you called my sites racist because there are no black models. (Fact: 20 models on a site who happen to be white does not indicate a nazi at the helm. I never exclude anyone based on race from any of my sites. I rely on amateur submissions, and if I don't happen to have gotten submissions from Asians, Latinas, or black folk yet, it's beyond my control.) If you could actually use sense and reason and post-"sexual revolution" thinking, we could have a discussion about women, but you know you don't have a leg to stand on, except with your little close-knit fanclub on your pink board.

Poor baby, no one should dare question your sexist beliefs, it's just mean! If you're going to enter a debate about ethics, sexism, and porn, be prepared to be called on your own shit.

[Halfdeck]

I no speaka ze engrish, but can read and speel:

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg
The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at
Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a
wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be
in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed
it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid! deos not raed
ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I
awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt!

Wow...so my nxet fere stie smbuission wlil raed...

TITLE: Mhtoer and Dguahter Sahring Enilgsh Taehcer

Description: Egnlish teaehcr dpros by to ttour Dnaie who suedces him...tehn the mehtor wkals in on tehm and edns up jnoiing in on the fun.

[Ms Naughty]

LOL Furrygirl.

As much as I don't want to continue this silly argument with you, because
1) it's obvious that you made up your mind on page 2 of that 5 page FW thread in May, and
2) this is not the place for it
I can't help but reply. I shouldn't bother, but feel the need to clear something up.

You see, there's this thing called "sarcasm." Obviously you're not very familiar with it if you actually think that I was calling your site racist.

I made that post about your site to try and show how you were making wild assumptions and generalisations about me and FTG based on the site tour and based on your own preconceptions about the topic.

Shall I post it again here?

You know, I think I will, because it's such a silly post it still makes me laugh.

So, folks, here it is:

Perhaps I just need to turn this topic around, since it has become an attack on For The Girls and on me.

So... shall I put a big smile on my face and reverse the polarity, so that now we're talking about Furrygirl's site, VegPorn?

To start, I'll jump into the thread and make a couple of broad sweeping stereotypical statements:

Vegetarians and vegans don't buy porn. Why would they? They're so weak from lack of protein they can't raise the energy to masturbate...

or how about:
Vegetarians can get sex any time they want, they don't need to use porn.

Right, good so far.

Next, I'll have a go at the whole concept behind what Furrygirl is trying to achieve with her site.

"Vegan and Vegetarian indie porn" is just wrong as a concept. It's obvious that most vegetarians join mainstream sites, so it's a bad name for what you do. You can't possibly cater to the tastes of every vegetarian, so how dare you say that what you're offering is representative of what vegetarians and vegans like?

You're obviously a minority. Of course, I myself know exactly what most vegetarians like (although I'm not going to say how I know this), and so I can categorically say that what you're offering is stereotypical, inaccurate and offensive to most vegetarians.

What's more, your site tacitly denies the sexualities of people who eat meat. Oh, sure, you SAY you welcome anybody, but I know what you're really thinking. Deep down inside, you hate people who eat meat, you're meatist. It doesn't matter what you say, you'll just be denying this essential fact about your character. You're really saying "Meatism is a very important value to me."

If a vegetarian joins Meat Holes, then surely that qualifies as "Vegetarian porn" too, right?

Hmm, what other attacks can I make? I know, I'll leap to a few conclusions about your site and what you're all about just based on your tour:

Well, a lot of the people on your site look very pale... You seem to be suggesting that vegetarians are all pale and don't have any energy. How dare you imply that? I'm sure there are a million vegans out there who are running marathones and the like.

Hang on a minute.... there's NO BLACK PEOPLE on your tour. Are you saying that black people can't be vegetarians? How dare you, you're racist too!!

The text says "Titillating tofu eaters." We all know that eating tofu is such an old cliched idea about vegetarians. I can't believe you would put that on your site, it's perpetuating inaccuracies about vegetarians and what they eat (or else it suggests that you're doing something kinky with bean curd).

What's that? Vegetarians actually LIKE tofu? How do you know that? What? Because they told you, and now you're just catering to a certain market? Pah!!! You obviously have no idea what kind of stereotypes you're perpetuating. Those vegetarians who are titillated by tofu are just buying into a meatriarchal idea of sexuality...

Now, what else can I do? Shall I keep referring to your site as "thin pale porn" even though that's not a good description of it? I think I will, even though you'll say that your porn is quite broadly based. I'll just ignore what you say and stick to my own ideas about what you're selling. I don't want the facts to get in the way of my victim mentality.

OK, good. And now, for my final statement...

OH. MY. GOD. You're CHARGING people money to look at your porn? You mean you're not in this business just for altruistic reasons? Well, bugger me with a fish fork! You must be one of those smut peddlers who push certain stereotypes about sexuality in order to make money...

OK... now, do your best to refute all that I've had to say. I won't listen. I've already made up my mind about you.


Now, don't tell me you didn't pick up a certain hint of sarcasm and satire there? Or do you honestly believe that what I just quoted was a serious critique of your site?

Beyond that, all I can say is I made my final comments in the debate here (http://forums.femalewebmasters.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3349&perpage=10&pagenumber=4) on LEE'S pink board. I even asked you to make explicit what aspects of our site you considered to be "stereotypical and sexist" but you didn't reply.

You can continue to go on ranting about this as long as you like but I've replied to you, I don't agree with you, I believe that you're wrong, and that's it.

We're done.

Oh, and since I've posted, I'll make it slightly on topic: I think the changes to the text on RageCash's sleep site have made a huge difference and I no longer have any personal objection to it.

Copy is definitely king.

[Wazza]

marathonestut tut - can't you spell check?

Clearly you were foaming at the mouth when you wrote that... (Fuck! An ellipsis. Am I using it correctly? Where's the guide gone when you need it)

[Halfdeck]

Where's the guide gone

tut tut, grammar check |peace|

I enjoyed reading KarenJ's posts on that FW thread. Kind of an eye opener really since I always have a male surfer in mind when I'm building my sites.

BTW, I find personal attacks on threads distracting. Rape can be a hot topic especially for female webmasters (so far most male webmasters seem to be mildly opposed to or indifferent) but no one enjoys reading mudslinging posts.

[furrygirl]

Yet again, Karen Scrotum, you're just madly grasping at straws. I think you're too accustomed to being a god in your own tiny micro niche, so getting someone disagreeing with you really chaps your ass. I don't worship at the altar of KarenJ, so couldn't care less if you think I'm some close-minded asshole because I "already made up my mind" early in a discussion. I'll always disagree with overt sexism and sexual stereotyping in porn, whether it's sexism that you personally dislike or the sexism that you personally adore. And it's not like you haven't heard the same feminist critique or your site a million times, so you should be used to it by now, anyway.

It's funny that you've paraphrased my statement that copy and context are king twice now on these Rage Cash threads, but won't attribute it to me. Sucks ass when crazy deviant whores are right about something and phrase it so well you can't stop quoting it, doesn't it?

Oh yeah, and you like posting jokes to insult me, so here's one for you:

"Knock-knock!"
"Who's there?"
"It's 1992 calling, they want their tired-ass content back."

[Ms Naughty]

You said "copy is king" previously? OK, cool. Thanks for that.

[susanna]

I no speaka ze engrish, but can read and speel:

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg...
The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at
Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a
wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be
in the rghit pclae... The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed
it wouthit a porbelm... Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid! deos not raed
ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe... Amzanig huh?... yaeh and I
awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt!...


You missed a few ... so I put them in... ahhh looks better now right...



Some peoples psychotic behavior... oh I forgot I should be posting about "ethics, sexism and porn" and not making attacks of character...maybe I am just "desperately grasping as straws to attack anyone that comes within 10 feet of me" ...

...

[Kenny B!]

Wow you people get all worked up on a message board! Why do people take things so personally from others who you couldn't care less about?

Seems like a lot of wasted energy to me.

[Greenguy]

2 weeks. That how long some of you have wasted on this topic.

TWO WEEKS.

Move on.

[susanna]

Wow you people get all worked up on a message board! Why do people take things so personally from others who you couldn't care less about?

Seems like a lot of wasted energy to me.


nooo we are actually having fun. ;)

I agree greenguy...besides this thread is misnamed for over a week now.

[Surfn]

nooo we are actually having fun. ;)

I agree greenguy...besides this thread is misnamed for over a week now.
This thread is not misnamed, but sure has been hijacked to hell.

[furrygirl]

Wow you people get all worked up on a message board! Why do people take things so personally from others who you couldn't care less about?

Seems like a lot of wasted energy to me.
Aww, and that time you were wasted at Internext, you thought I was so adorable.

[Kenny B!]

Aww, and that time you were wasted at Internext, you thought I was so adorable.

I don't find that was wasted time I had a great time and even sober I still find you absolutely adorable!