Xbiz promoting newsgroup reseller?

[RawAlex]

Latest xbiz news has a big ad on the top for http://www.eroticusenet.com - a service reselling access to "filtered" newsgroups.

Isn't this just real close to reselling copyrighted material without a license? How can they be sure that all the content is legal?

Alex

[nekrom]

Sounds like a similar thing to GUBA.

And GUBA technicaly is just software, that allows end users to search for content in usenet groups, but not actualy being a provider. Another grey area by the sounds of it.

-N

[RawAlex]

It's pretty grey until you start re-selling the content, which is what this appears to do. I can assure you 100% that this isn't 2257 compliant, which would be a requirement for a secondary supplier - either you know who has the 2257 records or you have them yourself.

It's grey - so why would xbiz touch it and take their money?

Alex

[nekrom]

Does Xbiz have a disclaimer on their website saying that in no way are they responsible for the content or maner a program is run. In any clients payed campaigns?
That would be a way to get aound it. Or maybe Xbiz arn't aware of how the program operates?

-N

[neticule]

very unsafe IMO.
Its an understatement to say 'some' of it is not legal/2257, i would bet the almost half if not more is. Think of all the sponsor pics posted on that, they are basically making money off of other paysites and sponsors work, arent they?

Lets just say I wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole if I were a sponsor.

[RawAlex]

that is what i don't understand - I saw it and I knew what it was right away. How can Xbiz figure that this is a good thing, something worth taking ad dollars from?

Alex

[eroticusenet]

Hi,

We promoted our EroticUsenet service in the XBiz newsletter recently, which generated some incorrect statements from a couple of folks within the Greenguy & Jim message board.

In response to that discussion thread, we'd like to make 3 points:

1) Usenet newsgroups predate the Internet, and they are provided by Telco, ISP, government, university, and corporate news servers worldwide. We receive over 2 million newsgroup postings a day, and during the 12 years that we've operated our Usenet service, we have not been involved in any legal matters related to 2257. If interested, I've included our complete 2257 policy statement at the end of this message

2) Generally speaking, the Usenet / 2257 discussion is usually originated by a handful of adult service providers who feel their home territory is being threatened. Rather than educate adult webmasters and developers about how Usenet can benefit their businesses, some providers seek to stifle competition by making negative comments about Usenet that are simply untrue & uninformed.

3) In regards to XBiz / Gigacash, they need to decide if they are in the business of selling advertising space or selling competing adult products & services... trying to juggle both, creates a clear conflict of interest.

We appreciate the opportunity to correct some of the earlier misstatements, and if there are any questions about this topic, please feel free to contact us.

Best regards,
Joe D'Alessandro
EroticUsenet.Com

(T) 408-720-7620 / 1-866-487-3638
(E) info@eroticusenet.com

### Our 2257 statement:

18 U.S.C. Section 2257compliance does not apply to Usenet services of any type, from any provider, including those operating on government servers, corporate servers, universities, every major Telco and the tens of thousands of commercial Usenet services operating worldwide on the Internet. Usenet is a protocol or conveyance, designed to propagate millions of daily messages across virtually all Usenet services, Erotic Usenet is not a content originator, so there is no content to pledge as child pornography free. The analogy is an International phone company attempting to censor the contents of every phone conversation that takes place on its network. This does not mean we do not contribute to barring the presence of child pornography from Usenet.

Erotic Usenet will not maintain a business relationship with any entity or individual responsible for posting child pornography through Erotic Usenet, or maintains such material as a component of their service. In addition, we will seek to block or filter originating points of this material, including discontinuing peering relationships with services that do propagate child pornography. Erotic Usenet maintains an outbound stream of "cancel messages" to cooperative services that removes material of this type as discovered, not only on Erotic Usenet systems, but participating services as well. Erotic Usenet actively assists law enforcement in child pornography investigations. Erotic Usenet maintains a system for customers to report to us any infractions of policy regarding child pornography and addresses reports expeditiously.

[Useless]

I always thought the purpose of 2257 was the prevention of child and other illegal types of pornography. Never read the part where the regulation states 'just wait till it happens, then pull it'.

[airdick]

I always thought the purpose of 2257 was the prevention of child and other illegal types of pornography. Never read the part where the regulation states 'just wait till it happens, then pull it'.

The point is that usenet news providers are simply internet service providers. It's not their content and they are not selling content, they are selling access to an Internet service.

If Usenet providers should have to act as primary or secondary producers for all adult content that passes through their servers, then the same should apply to all ISPs, e-mail providers, hosting companies, and telcos.

[gigabugbee]

3) In regards to XBiz / Gigacash, they need to decide if they are in the business of selling advertising space or selling competing adult products & services... trying to juggle both, creates a clear conflict of interest. (QUOTE)

UMMM GigaCash is an AFFILIATE PROGRAM, XBiz is a PU-BLI-CA-TION and NEWS SOURCE. Both companies are run seperately. Competing products and services???? You are kidding right, conflict of interest? NOT AT ALL.....Take a look at our advertisers why would we have the top ten AFFILIATE programs advertising with XBiz if I VP of GIGACASH an AFFILIATE PROGRAM was worried about competing products and services.

It is too bad about this thread I called and tried to speak with you privately about your product Joe and our concerns regarding the exposure to XBiz and then you take it to the boards???

[Greenguy]

I do have 2 questions:

1 - what happens when there is an image in question as far as the age of the model?

2 - who do content producers contact when they see their unlicensed images on your site?

[RawAlex]

The problem comes when you cross the line from providing access to the newsgroups and providing filtered / selective newsgroup access, by eliminating all the posts and text and providing access to only the images. You then resell the access. I cannot see how that would differ from me collecting images from the newsgroups and using them inside a paysite. There is a line there, but it is difficult to detemine exactly where that is.

However, 2257 is clear. You have to be able to prove that all the models on your site are of age. Unfiltered, the newsgroups are a seperate issue. But once you start filtering, editing, and removing the text component of the newsgroups to provide only a selected part, you very likely fall into the definition of a primary producer. Why? Because you are unable to confirm the primary producer, the assumption (legally) can be that you are the primary producer because you are unable to accurately point the finger at the primary producer. There is a huge difference between being an ISP offer an unfiltered view of the internet and a company packaging, cleaning, and selectively displaying content. In my opinion, you truly need to get yourself better lawyers if the legal advice you have gotten is different. I'm not a lawyer, but I can see where the logic goes.

The likelihood that you are distributing KP is about 100%, and if you are filtering to remove it, then you are not just an ISP. You cannot have it both ways.

Alex

[Jim]

Alex
How exactly would that differ from any isp that offers usenet access unfiltered? They give you access to the same content, right?

[Greenguy]

Jim - are you saying that you endorse this kind of thing?

[Jim]

Jim - are you saying that you endorse this kind of thing?
Usenet access???
Is that the thing you are asking about?

[Greenguy]

No, I'm talking about allowing access to illegal and/or unlicensed content.

[Jim]

You mean like every isp that offers usenet access?

[eroticusenet]

I do have 2 questions:

1 - what happens when there is an image in question as far as the age of the model?

2 - who do content producers contact when they see their unlicensed images on your site?

Good questions, and I've included some additional information below. If any of the following is unclear, please let us know.

1) If you view inappropriate content within the newsgroups, simply contact our staff and we'll make sure the posts are removed. Additionally, we will block the originating points of this material, and discontinue peering relationships with any services that propagate child pornography.

Our staff is available 7 days a week throughout the year, allowing us to address these concerns in a timely fashion. Folks are welcome to email their inquiry to "abuse@eroticusenet.com" or phone us at 408-720-7620.

2) We take this issue very seriously as well. All incoming copyright complaints are handled within DMCA guidelines, and we set aside a dedicated email address (dmca@eroticusenet.com) to expedite those complaints.

Please note that a number of adult webmasters also post content to the newsgroups to promote their websites, and we've assisted them with that process for the past 12 years.

Those folks will typically post their older, archived content to the groups, providing them with an inexpensive, but effective method for advertising their websites.

The following web page provides some general posting guidelines for commercial sites, and our staff is always available to answer any questions...

http://eroticusenet.com/posts.htm

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss some of these topics on your message board, we appreciate it.

[RawAlex]

Jim, an ISP is offering "unfiltered" access - raw feed, do what you want. ISPs are safe from prosecution - they are the same as phone companies, message carriers. As long as they don't filter the message, they are not responsible for it. They offer pipe not content.

What this company is doing is collecting ONLY images off usenet, filtering, organizing them, etc and then reselling access to ONLY those images. At that point, they are no different from a site you or I run offering access to images for a price. The difference is they have sourced their material not from content producers but by scooping usenet. They pay no fee, have no license, and have no access to 2257 info.

ISP offers access to the internet as a whole. newsgroup suppliers offer access to newsgroups as a whole. Once you start to filter and edit, you accept responsiblity for it.

Alex

[Jim]

It's the filtering you don't like? What about isps that filter adult content? Is that the same thing? After all, content is content, right? Doesn't matter if it is images and/or text.

Or, how about the old dejanews, now groups.google? Or for that matter...any service that provides a content database for usenet.

[Jim]

I know I don't have to say this but...everyone knows I don't support content thievery in any shape or form. I just think when you are talking about Usenet access and/or filtering, you are looking towards the wrong place for the thieves.

I have always had a strong feeling about access to usenet. It is the very last place for free speech and anonymity. I believe you have to take the bad with the good.

[eroticusenet]

3) In regards to XBiz / Gigacash, they need to decide if they are in the business of selling advertising space or selling competing adult products & services... trying to juggle both, creates a clear conflict of interest. (QUOTE)

UMMM GigaCash is an AFFILIATE PROGRAM, XBiz is a PU-BLI-CA-TION and NEWS SOURCE. Both companies are run seperately. Competing products and services???? You are kidding right, conflict of interest? NOT AT ALL.....Take a look at our advertisers why would we have the top ten AFFILIATE programs advertising with XBiz if I VP of GIGACASH an AFFILIATE PROGRAM was worried about competing products and services.

It is too bad about this thread I called and tried to speak with you privately about your product Joe and our concerns regarding the exposure to XBiz and then you take it to the boards???

In all fairness Stephen, we had a positive phone conversation about this matter the day after our first ad banner appeared in your XBiz newsletter (4/8/05).

You found a couple of posts in the Greenguy message board that talked about XBiz/EroticUsenet/2257, and you wanted to clarify a few points.

We talked for an extended period of time, and at your request, we sent you a statement that detailed the relationship between Usenet, our service and 2257.

After reviewing that information, you said there was "no problem", and that you'd post a reply in the Greenguy discussion thread. You also suggested that XBiz might write an editorial piece to help educate the adult industry about Usenet and the services that we provide.

That was the last time we spoke. You never made a reply post to the Greenguy discussion thread, the editorial coverage never materialized, and you also failed to respond to several phone & email messages that we left for you. Additionally, we left several messages with our XBiz account rep (Kristen) that went unanswered.

As a result, we elected to post some information into this discussion thread to help address some of the misconceptions about Usenet and our service.

In regards to my other comment... I was simply saying that as a publisher it would seem to be a conflict of interest to operate an affiliate program (Gigacash) that's linked to a variety of commercial content sites that you own. As an example, when you run a WHOIS on several of the sites listed at http://gigacash.com/sites.html those domains are registered under Webstar Marketing, which appears on the advertising invoices that we've received from XBiz...

shelovesbigballs.com
coedchicks.com
mombang.com
etc.

In the end, all we wanted to do was address some of these issues in a responsible manner, but you elected to close off communications and essentially left us out there to hang. Not sure what we were expected to do in that situation.

[eroticusenet]

Jim, an ISP is offering "unfiltered" access - raw feed, do what you want. ISPs are safe from prosecution - they are the same as phone companies, message carriers. As long as they don't filter the message, they are not responsible for it. They offer pipe not content.

What this company is doing is collecting ONLY images off usenet, filtering, organizing them, etc and then reselling access to ONLY those images. At that point, they are no different from a site you or I run offering access to images for a price. The difference is they have sourced their material not from content producers but by scooping usenet. They pay no fee, have no license, and have no access to 2257 info.

ISP offers access to the internet as a whole. newsgroup suppliers offer access to newsgroups as a whole. Once you start to filter and edit, you accept responsiblity for it.

Alex

While I appreciate your participation in this discussion, your comments are uninformed and incorrect.

As an example, the following statement is a complete misrepresentation of the services that we provide...

"...collecting ONLY images off usenet, filtering, organizing them, etc and then reselling access to ONLY those images."

We are a Usenet service provider, and have been for the past 12 years. It is the same service that is offered through telcos, ISPs, universities, corporations and competing commercial Usenet providers.

We are not "collecting", "filtering", "organizing" or "scooping" anything. Those are your descriptions of our service, and as noted, they are incorrect.

In the end, our clients... both adult and non-adult... have benefited tremendously from the Usenet services that we provide to them... and as business people, it would have been nice to have a candid, responsible dialog about the topics appearing in this thread.

Quite frankly, we thought that if anyone could understand the importance of free speech... the importance of not being characterized or labeled unfairly... it would be participants in the adult entertainment industry. Obviously we were wrong, and that's unfortunate.

[Useless]

Quite frankly, we thought that if anyone could understand the importance of free speech... the importance of not being characterized or labeled unfairly... it would be participants in the adult entertainment industry. Obviously we were wrong, and that's unfortunate.
I'm struggling to understand why you are so concerned about our opinions of your business model. Is this just a matter of properly educating us or are we doing you harm of some mysterious manner?

[airdick]

I know I don't have to say this but...everyone knows I don't support content thievery in any shape or form. I just think when you are talking about Usenet access and/or filtering, you are looking towards the wrong place for the thieves.

I have always had a strong feeling about access to usenet. It is the very last place for free speech and anonymity. I believe you have to take the bad with the good.

You're absolutely right.

Usenet was the heart of the net long before there was any such thing as the world wide web and it is still a very valuable resource.

[RawAlex]

I see your free speech and raise you violated copyrights and failure to follow 2257 guidelines. Explain to me WITH COURT JUDGEMENTS how you are exempt. How can you run KP images without fear?

At the end of the day, newsgroups are the home of scams, spams, KP, lies and crud. Wading through it to get anything useful is a joke, like a million unmoderated chat boards filled with scam artists, theives, and liars. Usenet could die tomorrow and the web would be a MUCH better place.


Are you saying your service does not filter IN ANY WAY usenet? Does not group, selectively display, edit, filter, remove, or in any way present information outside of it's original format?

Jim, once you start filtering (specifically editing) material, you become a producer not just a delivery method. Selectively displaying only images from usenet, example (a common business model, sadly) means that the provider isn't just giving access to the usenet but is filtering, aggregating, and yes, editing the content you see. Google avoids this problem by providing UNEDITED but searchable results, and they always present the final results in context and in format. They don't just extract the images.

Sorry, but rebroadcasting and charging access fees to material that is most certainly illegal isn't exactly a brainy business model.

Alex

[Jel]

Being a newbie, I don't understand the usenet thing to be honest. But... doesn't google extract only images when you do an image search? Like I say, I'm very green when it comes to this, and seeings I just signed up for GUBA, very interested nonetheless :)
Also, does the safe search filter by it's very name not also give a filtered result?

[eroticusenet]

I'm struggling to understand why you are so concerned about our opinions of your business model. Is this just a matter of properly educating us or are we doing you harm of some mysterious manner?

Our concerns are pretty simple...

We've had a couple of people maliciously post libelous comments about our service on a public message board, in an effort to scare away potential customers and damage our business.

This is the equivalent of someone walking into a crowded theater and yelling "Fire!" when there isn't one.

If the harm still seems "mysterious" to you, it may help to step into our shoes for a moment....

You've operated a quality adult website for over a decade, which has been in complete compliance with federal and state laws.

In an effort to raise awareness for your site, and to expand upon your business, you run some advertising.

A few folks... competitors, anti-porn fanatics, whatever... go to a public discussion board, and in front of an audience of potential customers proclaim that you promote and provide child pornography. The statements are malicious, untrue, and scare the crap out of folks who may have otherwise purchased a membership with your site.

If this doesn't help to clarify, and personalize some of our concerns, there's really not much more I can offer at this point.

[eroticusenet]

Interesting observations Alex... completely incorrect... but interesting none the less :)

As I've noted several times now, we've been providing Usenet services to retail and commercial customers for over a decade. Usenet continues to grow in popularity, and to date, over 2 million valid newsgroup postings pass through our news servers every day. This translates to approximately 800 GB of newsgroup content daily, which is comprised of text discussions and multimedia related to a variety of different topics.

Please note that adult webmasters have utilized the Usenet newsgroups for years to advertise their products, services, and websites. In fact we currently assist a number of adult websites with their promotional postings to the groups. In the end, if a few basic guidelines are followed, the newsgroups benefit by receiving quality content, and adult webmasters benefit by promoting their websites to a worldwide audience.

With our Usenet service, adult and non-adult webmasters can deliver 30,000+ newsgroups through their website, without having to use their servers, storage or bandwidth. At a time when webmasters are looking for new ways to drive and retain traffic at their site... to remain competitive & profitable... our Usenet service provides an inexpensive solution.

Our Usenet service is currently a popular component within a variety of adult websites, and its the same service that we deliver to our non-adult clients, such as ISPs, universities, government agencies, corporations, national newspapers, law firms, etc. It is also the same service that is available on Comcast, Adelphia, RoadRunner, Earthlink, and any other international/national/regional ISP.

The service is easy to use, fully supported by our technical staff, and can be brought online at most websites in less than 15 minutes. No hardware or software required, and our clients' end-users simply need a web browser to access, view and post to the newsgroups.

While you're references to "rebroadcasting", "filtering", "KP", "court judgements" are all very sensational and inflammatory... they ultimately have nothing to do with Usenet or the services that we provide.

As mentioned earlier, it would have been nice to have a productive conversation to see how are respective businesses could benefit one another, rather than get caught up in a bunch of chest pounding and territorial pissings.

With that said, if anyone has questions about our service, or the Usenet community in general, please feel free to contact us any time and we'd be happy to assist you.

(E) info@eroticusenet.com
(T) 408-720-7620

[RawAlex]

no territorial pissing, sorry, you misunderstand. You don't get it! Usenet is nothing but stolen images, images used without permission, and untraceable nudes in total violation of 2257. To resell it is to condone it - and now you let slip that you "help" companies spam newsgroups.

As for filter, kp , and "court judgements", well, I won't repeat myself again except to say that rather than addressing the issues, you are just spewing ad copy. Nice but not informative or an informed reply.

Nice business model. :)

Alex

[RawAlex]

Being a newbie, I don't understand the usenet thing to be honest. But... doesn't google extract only images when you do an image search? Like I say, I'm very green when it comes to this, and seeings I just signed up for GUBA, very interested nonetheless :)
Also, does the safe search filter by it's very name not also give a filtered result?

There is a difference between "filtering" search results and filtering individual messages. If a message has 100 lines of text and an image, and you present only the image, you have filtered and edited the end product, presented the image without context, and general are profiting from that image without permission. That is not fair use or any other "public" thing. Google's search function for newsgroups already returns the entire message plus thread guide etc. Most newsgroup resellers usually offer some sort of image extraction service that allows end users to browse ONLY images taken out of messages, without the attached message.

The internet could live quite happily without usenet. In fact, it would be a much better place. Adult membership sites would be foolish to pay to support a network who's users turn around and distribute your content without permission.

Alex

[Jel]

There is a difference between "filtering" search results and filtering individual messages. If a message has 100 lines of text and an image, and you present only the image, you have filtered and edited the end product, presented the image without context, and general are profiting from that image without permission. That is not fair use or any other "public" thing. Google's search function for newsgroups already returns the entire message plus thread guide etc. Most newsgroup resellers usually offer some sort of image extraction service that allows end users to browse ONLY images taken out of messages, without the attached message.


Gotcha. That clears up that :)

[gigabugbee]

In all fairness Stephen, we had a positive phone conversation about this matter the day after our first ad banner appeared in your XBiz newsletter (4/8/05).

You found a couple of posts in the Greenguy message board that talked about XBiz/EroticUsenet/2257, and you wanted to clarify a few points.

We talked for an extended period of time, and at your request, we sent you a statement that detailed the relationship between Usenet, our service and 2257.

After reviewing that information, you said there was "no problem", and that you'd post a reply in the Greenguy discussion thread. You also suggested that XBiz might write an editorial piece to help educate the adult industry about Usenet and the services that we provide.

That was the last time we spoke. You never made a reply post to the Greenguy discussion thread, the editorial coverage never materialized, and you also failed to respond to several phone & email messages that we left for you. Additionally, we left several messages with our XBiz account rep (Kristen) that went unanswered.

As a result, we elected to post some information into this discussion thread to help address some of the misconceptions about Usenet and our service.

In regards to my other comment... I was simply saying that as a publisher it would seem to be a conflict of interest to operate an affiliate program (Gigacash) that's linked to a variety of commercial content sites that you own. As an example, when you run a WHOIS on several of the sites listed at http://gigacash.com/sites.html those domains are registered under Webstar Marketing, which appears on the advertising invoices that we've received from XBiz...

shelovesbigballs.com
coedchicks.com
mombang.com
etc.

In the end, all we wanted to do was address some of these issues in a responsible manner, but you elected to close off communications and essentially left us out there to hang. Not sure what we were expected to do in that situation.


OK close off communications? everyone knows how to get a hold of me cell, offfice, ICQ, webmail etc I am always available 24/7 I did not hear back from you guys regarding the matter and I never said fine i said I needed to review your 2257 docs. Feel free to call me if you want.

Bugbee

[eroticusenet]

no territorial pissing, sorry, you misunderstand. You don't get it! Usenet is nothing but stolen images, images used without permission, and untraceable nudes in total violation of 2257. To resell it is to condone it - and now you let slip that you "help" companies spam newsgroups.

As for filter, kp , and "court judgements", well, I won't repeat myself again except to say that rather than addressing the issues, you are just spewing ad copy. Nice but not informative or an informed reply.

Nice business model. :)

Alex

We've already corrected your comments about Usenet & our services in previous posts, so there's no need to rehash that information.

The majority of our interactions with adult webmasters, designers & developers have been very positive.

Rather than rush to make incorrect prejudgments... something that you're very good at Alex... most folks have taken a few minutes to actually inform themselves about Usenet, and were able to see the value it could bring to their businesses.

Those interactions have been very positive as I noted, and we're looking forward to developing similar relationships.

[eroticusenet]

OK close off communications? everyone knows how to get a hold of me cell, offfice, ICQ, webmail etc I am always available 24/7 I did not hear back from you guys regarding the matter and I never said fine i said I needed to review your 2257 docs. Feel free to call me if you want.

Bugbee

Knowing how to get a hold of you, and having you respond, are two entirely different things Stephen.

As I mentioned, the last time we communicated was on 4/8/05. I emailed you our statement regarding Usenet/2257, and in your reply message you said there was "No problem". You also said that you'd review the docs a little further and contact me on Monday regarding an editorial piece.

Monday passed without any reply from you. On Tuesday (4/12/05), I left an email and voice mail message for you.

On Thursday (4/14/05) our 2nd ad ran in the XBiz newsletter, and I still had not heard back from you. On Friday morning I contacted our XBiz advertising rep (Kristen).

Kristen said that she was heading into a meeting with you and Alex, and that the three of you would discuss our ad placement, as well as an editorial piece to inform folks about Usenet/EroticUsenet/2257.

Kristen said she would call me back in 1-2 hours... I didn't hear from her the rest of the day. I left a voice mail message for her at approximately 3PM with no reply.

Monday morning I called Kristen again. She thought I was another client, and began telling me about "artwork problems" until I refreshed her memory.

She said that she wasn't in the office on Friday (not true, we had talked by phone that day), and that she didn't have a chance to meet with you and Alex. She suggested that we email Alex, rushed off the phone, and the runaround continued.

In the end, all we had planned to do was run 3 months of advertising in your XBiz newsletter. After the 1st ad ran, you contacted us about 2257 concerns that were unwarranted & had nothing to do with our service.

You basically dropped a turd in our lap, and than disappeared. You never followed up on the 2257 issue, never responded to the initial posts on the Greenguy board, and we never discussed the editorial coverage that you suggested. We were basically left in the dark, despite the fact that we didn't initiate all of this.

[dareutwo]

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and shits like a duck???

I'm with Raw Alex on this one.
No offense Jim, and yes, I've been around usenet for many many years.
1600 baud. There is free speach and there isn't.
Especially now.

[Jim]

There is free speach and there isn't.
What does that even mean?

[Greenguy]

Is there any way we can see an example of this in action?

[RawAlex]

Here is a good way to clairfy the situation:

http://eroticusenet.com/images/window_drnexample.jpg

Images extracted from the messages, displayed as thumbnail pages. This isn't just usenet access, it is a content aggregator and presentation format. you can then download those images without ever seeing the newsgroup messages attached to them.

That crosses the line.

Alex

[Jaden]

So what makes that any different than a site like Fusker, hiding behind the usenet name???? Except having someone else pay for the bandwidth? At least on the usenet groups the way I remember it being is that you at least had to sift through the messages and get the ads to see the content?

There definitely seems to be a huge difference between that and just offering usenet access......I am at a loss at how that could possibly help webmaster, designers or programs?

[RawAlex]

jaden someone keeps telling programs that having your url on pictures is the best way to get traffic. They package them up on newsgroups bit torrent, and any other way they can to try to drive traffic. it probably works to an extent, but now means that single girl model sites burn out mostly within a month or two from sheer over exposure. In the end, it hurts their business but most people look short term gains and dont care about long term pain.

Alex

[eroticusenet]

Here is a good way to clairfy the situation:

http://eroticusenet.com/images/window_drnexample.jpg

Images extracted from the messages, displayed as thumbnail pages. This isn't just usenet access, it is a content aggregator and presentation format. you can then download those images without ever seeing the newsgroup messages attached to them.

That crosses the line.

Alex

Once again Alex this is yet another example of your misinformation, lack of knowledge, and ignorance about Usenet and our service.

I'd strongly encourage you to support your future statements about our service with factual information.

Once again... we do NOT filter, aggregate, extract or archive Usenet content.

While there are companies that extract, edit and archive Usenet content... I believe GUBA is one of them... that has nothing to do with our service.

We are a Usenet service, and we provide realtime access to unedited Usenet newsgroup content, through a web-based newsreader that we developed.

We have been providing this service for the past 12 years... along with other companies like Comcast, Adelphia, RoadRunner, etc... and there is nothing illegal about it.

Accessing the newsgroups through our web-based newsreader is no different than accessing the Usenet newsgroups with any other newsreader like Microsoft Outlook, Forte Agent, etc.

The benefit to using our newsreader is that end-users don't have to install any software (they use their web browser), and it's more intuitive for most folks because it is web-based.

Like any other newsreader... and any other Usenet service... end-users have the capacity to sort or organize content within a newsgroup realtime. They can sort content by date, author, subject line, content type, etc.

The URL that you referenced, simply highlights one of those sort options within the newsreader (thumbnail sort).

Regardless of the sort option that an end user selects... date, author, thumbnail, etc... they are sorting that newsgroup content realtime. The entire post is there, nothing has been edited or filtered.

To give you a general feel for the newsreader, you can view the screen captures at this URL...

http://eroticusenet.com/screens.htm

Like any other newsreader, an end user would view a list of the Usenet newsgroups. They'd select a newsgroup of interest, and view the content within that group realtime.

The end user has a number of options for sorting that content realtime. As an example there's a "Discussion Thread" and "Thumbnail" sort option, which are noted in the screen captures.

At this point, we've said all we can say on this topic, so this will most likely be our last post to this thread.

We've appreciated the opportunity to talk about our service, and if there are remaining questions please feel free to contact us by email or phone. Thanks!

[eroticusenet]

So what makes that any different than a site like Fusker, hiding behind the usenet name???? Except having someone else pay for the bandwidth? At least on the usenet groups the way I remember it being is that you at least had to sift through the messages and get the ads to see the content?

There definitely seems to be a huge difference between that and just offering usenet access......I am at a loss at how that could possibly help webmaster, designers or programs?

As noted several times in this thread, we are a Usenet service provider.

We do not extract, edit or archive newsgroup content. We are not Fusker, we are not GUBA, we have nothing in common with any of those services.

We offer realtime access to Usenet newsgroups through a web-based newsreader that we developed. It's no different than the Microsoft Outlook newsreader, except that our interface is web-based and does not require end users to download/install 3rd party applications. They use their web browser.

We've been providing this service to retail and commercial clients for the past 12 years. It is the same type of service that Comcast, Adelphia, RoadRunner, Earthlink, etc. provides to their retail and commercial customers.

ISPs, telcos, web portals, universities, government agencies, national newspapers, law firms, corporations, etc. come to us when they want to provide Usenet newsgroup access to their end users, but they don't want to operate the servers, storage & bandwidth required to sustain a Usenet service that conveys 800 GB of newsgroup content daily.

They can outsource that headache, overhead, and cost to us for as little as $75/month... and make the newsgroups accessible to their end users through a web-based newsreader that they can brand to match the appearance of their site.

That's just a few of the ways that our service helps webmasters, designers and developers.

Like any other product/service it may not be a good fit for everyone, but if you had any questions please feel free to phone or email our staff. We're available 7 days a week.

[Greenguy]

Can I please see an example that is not screen caps? PM me the info you don't want to post it in public.

[eroticusenet]

Can I please see an example that is not screen caps? PM me the info you don't want to post it in public.

We'll do you one better... if you operate a legitimate adult entertainment website, we'll let you run our EroticUsenet service at your site for 1 month... free of charge!

No credit cards, no checks, no invoicing. If the service doesn't meet your needs for whatever reason, you can simply let it expire at the end of the month without any cost or obligation.

With the exception of Alec... who has already arrived at false conclusions about our product without ever trying it... this would give folks a legitimate opportunity to check out our service first hand, and arrive at their own conclusions.

If you'd like to take advantage of this, please email (info@eroticusenet.com) or phone us (408-720-7620) and we'll get you setup.

[Greenguy]

Can we throw it on here?

[RawAlex]

eroticusenet, you don't understand... I have already seen your service. I need not say more.

Oh yeah, Alex, not Alec... that is for Sir Alec Guiness, not me.

[Jim]

Alec :)
Is it really just the filtering that bothers you? When looking at images on usenet, I really only see spam for the text included. Do you really ever see more than that?

[RawAlex]

Jim, the filtering bothers me because if I took images from usenet and just put them on my site, I would get my ass banned all over the place and have content providers send C&Ds all over. Filtering, the showing of images without the context is a real problem. NO 2257, no license, no contract... usenet wide open with the end user doing the filtering is UP TO THE USER. When the usenet provider has built in filtering, thumbnailers, and generally allows people to quickly enjoy content without context, well, they pass the line.

Just one of those things.

Alex

[Greenguy]

Alex - since you've seen it, maybe you can answer mine & Jim's question - Are the image still on the Usenet server or are they extracted from it, sorted & then uploaded to a regular http server/location?

[Jim]

Jim, the filtering bothers me because if I took images from usenet and just put them on my site, I would get my ass banned all over the place and have content providers send C&Ds all over. Filtering, the showing of images without the context is a real problem. NO 2257, no license, no contract... usenet wide open with the end user doing the filtering is UP TO THE USER. When the usenet provider has built in filtering, thumbnailers, and generally allows people to quickly enjoy content without context, well, they pass the line.

Just one of those things.

Alex

I agree with this but, as Greenie asks in his own little way :) Is he just making it easier to access the images or is he downloading them?

[Toby]

I agree with this but, as Greenie asks in his own little way :) Is he just making it easier to access the images or is he downloading them?
Usenet content is being displayed on an Internet web page.
I don't see any practical way for that to be done without downloading the messages from Usenet and saving them to a database for access by a web server. I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but I seriously doubt that the images are converted from UUE, BASE64, etc., then thumbnailed, and displayed in real time for every browser request. That would be a huge processing load on the server.

[RawAlex]

Toby, you hit the nail on the head - processing overhead to re-thumbnail a newsgroup every time would be insane, not likely. No, the images are pulled out, thumbnailed in bulk, and so on. If it is the same version of the software that I saw, you use the thumbnails to download the images only in bulk - no messages, no headers, no nothing - just bulk download. That software runs SERVER SIDE not USER SIDE. User only downloads and enjoy images, movies, and such and is not subjected to the actual newsgroup messages.

"A full featured server-side newsreader, that offers instant web-based access to newsgroups. DRN simplifies the news reading process by automatically decoding, downloading & displaying multimedia content for users."

Once you start editing, filtering, or simplifying the extraction of only images you have pretty much jumped the line.

Alex

[RawAlex]

Jim, putting it in simpler terms, it is a fusker of newsgroups.

Alex

[Greenguy]

eroticusenet - can you tell me the URL of a site that's using this & then I'll just join the fucker & see it for myself.

[RawAlex]

I sense a tapdance coming on.... :)

Alex

[Jim]

I just want to see it. I don't want to set it up on a site. I don't want a song and dance...let's see how it works.

[swedguy]

https://acc.newsguy.com/cgi-bin/sub_trial_form

There's a trial of the "software".
It didn't accept my CC, hope someone else has better luck.

[eroticusenet]

eroticusenet, you don't understand... I have already seen your service. I need not say more.

Oh yeah, Alex, not Alec... that is for Sir Alec Guiness, not me.

Alex - you have not posted a truthful comment about our service within this entire discussion thread.

Two quick points...

1. You said that you've already seen our service - can you please provide the URL for the website where you viewed and accessed our service?

2. If you used our service Alex, then you know that we provide realtime access to Usenet newsgroups... and all of your statements about what we do and don't do have been incorrect. Why would you knowingly go out of your way to misrepresent our service, and lie about its features & functionality?

[eroticusenet]

Usenet content is being displayed on an Internet web page.
I don't see any practical way for that to be done without downloading the messages from Usenet and saving them to a database for access by a web server. I'm sure I'll be corrected if wrong, but I seriously doubt that the images are converted from UUE, BASE64, etc., then thumbnailed, and displayed in real time for every browser request. That would be a huge processing load on the server.

As I've mentioned several times in this discussion thread, we provide realtime access to Usenet newsgroups, so your comment about saving content to a database is incorrect.

Usenet services do require a lot of servers, bandwidth, processing capacity, etc., so it's not a casual undertaking. You're correct on that point.

We've been providing Usenet services to retail and commercial customers for the past 12 years, so we've had the benefit of being able to gradually grow our infrastructure (hardware, bandwidth, etc.) along with our customer base.

That's one of the nice advantages of our service... a webmaster could add newsgroup access to their website, without having to locally operate a hardware/software infrastructure that's taken us 12 years to establish.

[Jim]

What the Fuck are you hiding? Why do you continuously overlook us asking to see the service before we make up our minds?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt but the more you evade the question of seeing the service, the more I think you are a thief.

[Toby]

...That's one of the nice advantages of our service... a webmaster could add newsgroup access to their website, without having to locally operate a hardware/software infrastructure that's taken us 12 years to establish.
Then you're telling us that you actually do convert Usenet encoded images (UUE, BASE64, etc.) to JPG format and thumbnail them on the fly every single time a user requests a thumbnail sorted page? Just a simple yes or no answer please, I grow weary of the song & dance and sales pitch.

[Greenguy]

|band |bananna| |pink |bananna| |pink

[Jim]

Toby, you aren't the only one sick of the song and dance.

[Useless]

That's one of the nice advantages of our service... a webmaster could add newsgroup access to their website, without having to locally operate a hardware/software infrastructure that's taken us 12 years to establish.
But WHY would a webmaster WANT to add newsgroup access to their site? Should we be convincing our surfers to go elsewhere to troll for free images rather than selling them on paysites?

[eroticusenet]

This discussion started when XBiz took our advertising dollars, and then decided to make disparaging comments about our service. They had a chance to review our website, service and banners in advance, so if there was a legitimate problem, a professional organization would have rejected our advertising before it went live.

Secondly, after reading incorrect opinions that had been posted to the Greenguy board, we made a genuine attempt to help educate folks about Usenet and our service.

We did this by offering webmasters an opportunity to try the service live at their website... free of charge... for an entire month. They could have tested the service personally, or they could have made it available to their site users... whichever was most convenient for them.

That process would have allowed us to get to know one another from a business to business standpoint, and more importantly, it would have given us a chance to address specific questions and concerns on an individual basis.

Unfortunately, rather than take advantage of that generous offer, people ignored it... determined that it wasn't worth their time... or they visited an unrelated retail Usenet site to setup a trial account with a bad credit card.

Rather than take 15 minutes to actually try a service, it's seems that folks are more content with sitting back and arriving at uninformed conclusions instead. It's an unfortunate situation, but it's obvious that we're not going to get a fair shake.

[Toby]

...It's an unfortunate situation, but it's obvious that we're not going to get a fair shake.You've been given ample opportunity to give straight answers to simple questions. Instead you point fingers at those asking the questions, give vague and evasive answers, and spew forth more ad copy. You've been your own worst enemy here. A few yes or no answers would have settled the issue on page one instead of dragging on for three or four. But I don't think you really wanted to give truthful answers to those questions.

The ball is in your court, put up or shut up!

[Jim]

Rather than take 15 minutes to actually try a service, it's seems that folks are more content with sitting back and arriving at uninformed conclusions instead. It's an unfortunate situation, but it's obvious that we're not going to get a fair shake.

Jesus Christ, are you both blind and stupid or just stupid? How many times do we have to ask to see it to make informed comments. It is you that is hiding from it.

I was the only person that didn't jump to conclusions and now I have no choice.

[Useless]

WWASD

What Would Al Swearingen Do?

[swedguy]

or they visited an unrelated retail Usenet site to setup a trial account with a bad credit card.
So you're saying that NewsGuy isn't related to Erotic Usenet?

Odd. They have the same phone number as you posted earlier in this thread. The mainstream ad copy is a copy of the Erotic Usenet frontend. There are couple of other frontends too with the exact same design and ad copy.

[Greenguy]

...Rather than take 15 minutes to actually try a service...HOLY FUCKING CHRIST! Tell me where I can try the fucking thing out for myself & I'll go fucking try it!!!!!!

How fucking dense are you? |banghead|

[Jim]

I really can't remember being so frustrated :)
We almost beg to see the service then he claims we need to see the service to form an opinion.

I suspect he is hiding the truth. Xbiz probably made the right decision to stop dealing with him.

[Jeremy]

eroticusenet:

I get the feeling you guys are a mainstream company making their first foray into the adult webmaster B2B market and you either haven't done your market research / consultancy at all, or you've been advised by someone who knows sweet FA about the market.

I get this feeling because:

- your parent company PathLink was an ISP between 1997 at least and June 04, and that domain was reg'd in '95;

- you're failing to understand the idea that adult webmasters generally will give even big established companies a hard time;

- you're failing miserably at giving adult webmasters clear and concise info about your product backed up with salient facts.

Now having said that, here's some free consultancy for you:

- Adult webmasters can generally be described as independent, feisty, cantankerous, cynical. They've had more people try to sell them fool's gold than you've had hot dinners.

- As a rule adult webmasters are as easy to herd as cats. Mainstream webmasters seem much more supine.

- If you'd had proper advice you'd know who Greenguy is (http://www.link-o-rama.com/) and who Jim is (chat to the guys at CECash and FlashCash). I've only been doing this since Jan 97, so I'm a newbie. I think you could trust them with working demo access.

- Selling content in today's market is unbelievably tough. Selling feeds / plugins is even tougher. I've sold both.

- In order to sell feeds webmaster access to a working demo is sine qua non. I couldn't spot one on your site.

- In today's content market 2257 is a very big issue, especially with proposed amendments to 2257 last summer / fall - although they haven't been effected yet. I couldn't see any 2257 info on your site. If you think it isn't relevant to your service, think again. It's very relevant to your market.

- You've probably only got one more chance to convince the crowd before the thumb goes down and the lions are released. Use it wisely.

- You really should have hired a decent consultant.

Good luck.

[Jel]

Very well put Jeremy, nice post.

[Jim]

I was thinking the same thing about a consultant, Jeremy
But now, a new front man might be in order

[RawAlex]

Eroticusenet, I am like Jeremy, just a newbie from 96 or 97... I haven't been at this very long. Your service (as a standard newsgroup thing) has been around for quite a while. The thumbnailer program used inside your site (and actively promoted in your sales pitch) has been around for a while, more typically on an end user basis rather than on a server basis. Without even accessing your site, I am able to show where you aggregate, filter, and extract images for end users to download. It's right there in your ad copy, the image is right there, try to deny what is directly on your own site. You don't make people download all the newsgroup to find images (standard newsgroup operation) but instead you filter out all the messages, all the headers, all the thread info, and allow the users to click thumbnails and generate a downloadable file (likely zipped to save bandwidth) of all the images, movies, and such that they select. They receive this data MINUS the actual posting that went with it.

As someone else asked: Is this true yes or no? No ad copy, no long speeches, can people click on thumbnails generated by your system and download images only without messages directly from your service? YES OR NO?

If you answer yes, do you have license and 2257 documentation for those images?

If the answer is NO, then please consult a lawyer. If the answer is yes, then I doubt you understand the question or have chosen not to answer truthfully.

Please answer the simple questions. No speeches, no ad copy, no on and on. It's about your service. Answer the questions.

Alex

[Verbal]

This thread is useless without demos.

[RawAlex]

This thread is useless without answers.

Alex

[Useless]

This thread is useless.

[RawAlex]

Gee, thanks! :)

[Useless]

Gee, thanks! :)
D'oh!
|couch|

[Greenguy]

I was just thinking last night that this will end up being one of those threads that just slowly fades away without any action on the part of the people we think are in the wrong.

Oh well - any moron that uses their service deserves a life of pain & suffering living in Useless Warrior's neighborhood :D

[Wizzo]

damn, that was along read without a "happy ending" ... Like a bad night at a tittiebar... lol |bananna|

[RawAlex]

Well, GG, the truth is in there somewhere. That this guy / company has declined to make their product available for review even for a short period of time tells me that they have something to hide. Honest business people would be up here with usernames, passwords, jump pages, something... so that all doubt could be removed and their product given the once over. Instead, they chose ad copy, avoidance, slippery "2257 exemption" posts, and all sorts of other techniques for avoiding the basic subjects:

- Usenet contains images posted without permission.
- Usenet contains images that could be classed as KP
- Usenet is a cesspool of spam.

and finally:

any attempt to seperate the good (content) from the bad (spam), specifically by allowing shortcut or direct access to only images and / or video content on the newsgroups is a form of publishing, and as such the company is liable under 2257 and contract law for the redistribution of those images.

Pure hosted usenet access would be fine - the filters are their undoing and put them in to never never land. No sane paysite operator would want to get caught trying to explain all these unlicensed images with no 2257 documentation and no way to prove who has them.

Alex

[Wenchy]

I've read through this thread twice now and couldn't resist the urge to comment. IMHO, anyone to answers repeated legitimate questions with regurgitated ad copy and makes so little effort to address any one of the issues presented has something to hide. What's the old saying about "dazzle 'em with bullshit"?

Somehow reading through it all again I was reminded of my last experience with a used-car salesman... ask about the mileage and he tells you about their 90-day warranty.

Admittedly, I know next to nothing about usenet, but Alex makes some valid points about the function of their software, the manipulation of posted pictures, and the 2257 question. As a WM who's been around the biz for many years, I wouldn't touch that with somebody else's 10-foot pole.

Furthermore, I would extend a note of caution to anyone who does use their system... do so at your own peril. Call me paranoid, but it occurs to me that if a 2257 issue were to come up, these people would do everything in their power to pass the torch of responsibility and legal liability to those who posted the pics in the first place, so have all your ducks neatly in their little rows. Not that they would be successful, but the attempt could make things rather uncomfortable for anyone associated with them or their service.

If the thread fizzles, so be it... but I'll be interested to see how it all turns out.

[RawAlex]

Well, if I show up every so often and add a few lines, it stays active... sooner or later someone will have to answer.

[swedguy]

One of the admins should subscribe him to this thread and turn on "email notify me of new replies" :)

[RawAlex]

That might help... :)

[Greenguy]

I'd never stoop to that level |couch|

[RawAlex]

I am starting to think I need to start a new thread, maybe make boardtracker wake some people up.

[Useless]

I am starting to think I need to start a new thread, maybe make boardtracker wake some people up.
What? A new thread about Eroticusenet so that the folks at Eroticusenet will come and respond the the thread about Eroticusenet?

Might work.

That's a strange name. Eroticusenet, that is.
What is so erotic about usenet? Usenet doesn't sound erotic at all. Eroticusenet, hmmm. Almost as exciting as Cheeseburgerusenet, but not erotic at all.

Have you ever had an erotic experience while sifting through the usenet? No? Me either.

I don't think that usenet is all that user friendly. Maybe we should have Sparky toss up a script that could filter the bullshit text and advertising from the usenet and give us only erotic images. Then we could resell access to those filtered and previously stolen images and make some money. Now that's erotic! Oh wait. What about 2257? 2257 isn't erotic at all. Ah fuck it. Let's just do it and tell everyone that 2257 does not pertain to us. If any one asks about it, we'll just keep saying that 2257 has nothing to do with us. If they ask again, we'll repeat the same thing. See- now that's how you make usenet erotic.

[swedguy]

Since there's a lot of talk about Guba nowadays, this thread deserves a bump :)