Question For All

[Jimbo]

I have a question, but first a little catch up. Bear with me.

I have been in this business since 1996, always trying to produce original sites and offer something different from the same ol same ol. I have submitted to countless links pages over the years but have seen a scary trend over the past few years which has discouraged me from submitting to links pages any more. Links pages are trying to dictate how we design our sites, what is acceptable, and what is not acceptable. They all have their own guidelines and in so doing have suceeded in creating countless sites that look alike! By far the worse listings are on Persian Kitty where 80% of those listed are nothing more then AD pages, but still follow their guidelines. I've been listed on Persian Kitty off and on, and about up to 4 years ago the traffic was good enough to persuade you to join the crap and design another carbon crappy site just to get listed, but then the traffic got lower and I said the hell with that I don't need it any more.

My question is why aren't more webmasters voicing their disaproval about link pages "guidelines" or restrictions? I think a links page should offer links, NOT judge content or design. If more webmasters had the balls to speak up you would see more and more link pages easying up on their "guidelines".

I know what some may say, we need some sort of guide lines, and I agree, but links pages go way too far! Beyond any common sense and entering a film critics stage! So why keep silent about it? Speak up! If you don't like the guidelines do NOT submit!

I get the same crap from billers too! CCBill didn't like some of my keywords in meta tags, I told them if they didn't like it they can F**K off! I now use another biller. We webmasters take too much sh*t from too many people. We need to stand up for ourselves and stick up for each other. As long as our sites are book legal, nothing else should matter.

Now can any one direct me to a good links page and not a site critic? |waves|

Kindest Regards to all!

[DangerDave]

Jimbo,

I dont believe that your views are going to get much agreement here....

Linklists have rules for very specific reasons(and so does CCBill for that matter), and those rules are designed to ensure the success and longevity of those linklists.

If I start listing crap.. surfers leave and so does my traffic, and therefore your listed site goets no traffic..... it's that simple

DD

[RawAlex]

Jimbo, I actually had a nice long post all written, re-read it, and then decide that I could sum it all up better much more quickly in a simple statement:

if you don't like it, move along and build your own. Nobody is forcing you to submit to those link sites, just in the same way nobody forced you to use ccbill. If you don't like it, start your own.

It's that easy!

Alex

[Jimbo]

But I'm seeing crap now, aren't you? I agree we need some guidelines, but many lists go too far. The only thing we are succeding in doing is producing carbon copy sites. As for ccbill, how does mega tags effect longevity? They break no laws. As I said, as long as a site is book legal, nothing else should matter. When we start nit picking over keywords or becoming site critics because we just don't like the design, we go too far. Certainly there should be some guidelines, but I believe most lists go too far. Take a few minutes and go thru some of the links on PK. And come back and tell me if this proceedure is working. I would be verry suprised if most webmaster would not agree with this, atleast privately any way.

[Jimbo]

I believe I said basically the same thing. My question is why more webmasters don't speak up|rasta|

[jennym]

Jimbo,
I think if you look around a little here, you will find that people disagree on certain points all the time. I agree with parts of your post, and disagree with others.

You have hit on the main reason lists can do this (beside's the fact that it is their list). It is supply and demand. As long as there are hundreds of people standing in line for the traffic (no matter how strict the rules), then there is no reason to change a thing.

I do disagree with this statement though:
As long as our sites are book legal, nothing else should matter

For the most part, I am pretty lenient about the sites I review. But, I will not list sites that talk of "y*oung boys/girls", I will not list fantasy inc*st sites, and I don't list sites where the theme of the site is a passed out drunk woman getting fucked. These sites may be perfectly legal, but I still don't list them. I haven't banned any sponsors per se, but I don't list Little April sites either. Nothing against the guys running it. I think they are legit, but that girl just looks very young in everything.

I guess this was a long way of saying I understand your frustration, and try not to dictate how my submitters build their sites, but a few rules aren't such a bad thing.

Jennifer

[MadMax]

Just as DD said, most of the rules are in order to keep quality high for our surfers. When I started my LL a few months back, I was determined to keep the rules simpler than most of the other LLs out there. I have slowly but shurely been forced to adopt more rules just to cut down on the number of absolute crap submissions. Again <echo> if I list crappy sites and my surfers don't come back, no sites on my list get any traffic. Now, my LL isn't all that big yet, but you know what? I built the list up and continue to spend countless hours driving traffic to it...and it's MY traffic.

If you take a good look at most of the LL rules out there, they are MINIMUMS and DON'Ts. It all boils down to this: Build quality sites with quality content that don't promote illegal crap or try to trick surfers and aren't banner farms, and you will get listed in most places. It's sad that we have to break that simple concept down into 20+ rules in order to get the message across, but LL rules are a response to the quality of submissions, not the cause of it.

[Jimbo]

I've been creating special niche sites right from the start. I have taken the drunk passed out girls theme to the limits, even hypnotised, comatose, if you can think of it, we did it! And All of my material is original and custom made! Been doing it since 1996. Have made a living off it, WITHOUT any links to any lists too. It just saddens me that nobody will list it because soo much work goes in to it. You can't buy content like mine, you have to make it yourself. Is it filthy? Yes. But we deal in born, it's suppose to be dirty and filthy. I started with the passed out girls and shemales back in 96 and have tried almost everything. Ironically, the material that most people "object" to are the most lucrative...
GO FIGURE!

Kindest Regards!

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Jimbo
I've been creating special niche sites right from the start. I have taken the drunk passed out girls theme to the limits, even hypnotised, comatose, if you can think of it, we did it! And All of my material is original and custom made! Been doing it since 1996. Have made a living off it, WITHOUT any links to any lists too. It just saddens me that nobody will list it because soo much work goes in to it. You can't buy content like mine, you have to make it yourself. Is it filthy? Yes. Disgusting? Yup! Immoral? Sure is! But we deal in porn, it's suppose to be dirty and filthy. I started with the passed out girls and shemales back in 96 and have tried almost everything. Ironically, the material that most people "object" to are the most lucrative... so how are we helping the surfers again?
GO FIGURE!

I have always agreed we need some law and order and rules! I do not believe we should be film critics or let our personal opinions influence what gets accepted and what does not. As long as no laws are broken, site is well designed, no tricks, banner farms, pop-up jungles, etc., you should be good to go. I understand the bottom line is the list owner can say no for whatever reason. I am saying we should should speak up more often. Thanks for your honest reply!

Kindest Regards!

[Bill]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Take a few minutes and go thru some of the links on PK. And come back and tell me if this proceedure is working.

What is it about the pk links that mean when you say "not working"?

Of course the borderline illegal and illegal sells well.

[DangerDave]

So Jimbo...

Your complaint is that LL's wont list your sites that are in fact 'rape' sites?

Why are you surprised by this?

It will ALWAYS be the choice of each LL as to what they list.... that will never change.

DD

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Bill
What is it about the pk links that mean when you say "not working"?

What I mean about PK is that all her rules and guidelines have only succeeded in producing a list of the worst links I've ever seen. Most look like carbon copies of each other, most are nothing more the big advertisements, and most only took about 1 hour to make and get approved.

Of course the borderline illegal and illegal sells well.

borderline??? either it's legal or not. If it's legal, no problem. If it's illegal Big Problem. That was all I was saying. The problem lies with this "borderline" mentality (no offense), because we insert our own personal views when we really shouldn't.

For example, what if I find but f**king guys totally immoral and sick and should be illegal, what if I found that just as sick as CP? And I then proceeded to reject any sites for having it? See where I'm going? We can't, or shouldn't let our personal feelings influence links. We need to be able to seperate our personal feelings and simply go by the laws, insert some good comon sense rules and guidelines is all I am advocating.

Regards!

[jennym]

The problem I see with passed out drunk girls, is this. How do I know it's legal? If it is thrown out there as 'rape', then that is how I am going to perceive it. I don't know who shot the content, I don't know anything about it. I look at it, I see rape, I decline.

[Cleo]

Start you own list and then you can ban butt fucking men then if you want to.

My list, my rules. Follow them and submit or don't submit… that choice is yours.

[Bill]

I'm actually more interested in the PK comment than the borderline thing, but I'll answer your borderline question.

I say borderline because some things are illegal in certain states or countries, and that exposes the publisher to obscenity cases. Drunk girls for instance is at least theoretically illegal in several states ( no actual prosecutions that I know of...). Bondage with penetration is illegal in Canada, for example. That's why I say borderline.

There is no such thing as something either being illegal or it's not. All law is subject to interpretation at any time. "Morals" laws like those concerning porn are especially vulnerable to changes in the political climate.

[Greenguy]

Jimbo - I have one simple question:

Have you ever run a link list?

If your answer is "no", then please do not try & tell people that do run them how they should be run.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by DangerDave
So Jimbo...

Your complaint is that LL's wont list your sites that are in fact 'rape' sites?

Why are you surprised by this?

It will ALWAYS be the choice of each LL as to what they list.... that will never change.

DD

But they are not rape sites. I only have one passed out site or any thing like that, all my sites are different. My passed out site is based on girls passed out. Not attacked, although I have recently added attacked, why not, won't get listed any way. My site started out girls asleep, then progressed to what it is now. In fact you won't even find the word "rape" any where on my site or meta tags. BTW, the words ccbill objected to was "young" and "girls", I never had the word rape. Actually This site WAS indeed listed here on link-o-rama when it was called xxxsleepers.com, identical to it now but I decided to change the domain name. I understand how you can get rape out of it, but i do not place it in the same category, nor do rape links pages which find it too calm. Any way, rape or no rape, so what. It's on TV and the movies and nobody is objecting. Just here on the web we want to police each other. Ironic because we are all involved in porn.

Regards!

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Jimbo - I have one simple question:

Have you ever run a link list?

If your answer is "no", then please do not try & tell people that do run them how they should be run.

I did have a links page, I ran it for about 2 years, I also had 5 topsites. Please don't take offense. I am genuinely curious as to why things got to where they are today with out any objections.

I wasn't telling you how to run it, I was asking why more people do not object to the strict guidelines and personal opinions of "most" LL is all. In fact, I compliment you for being at least accessable!

Kindest Regards!

[Cleo]

I pass out and someone fucks me that is rape.

What part of this do you not fucking understand?

[Greenguy]

Originally posted by Jimbo
I did have a links page, I ran it for about 2 years, I also had 5 topsites.... Top Lists are a completely different animal & you can't really compare them to Link Lists. I'm sure there are some similarities, but not enough for this conversation.

How many submits a day were you getting on your "links page"?

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Cleo
I pass out and someone fucks me that is rape.

What part of this do you not fucking understand?

like I said in my post,

"... I understand how you can get rape out of it"

[Jim]

Why is it people try to tell other people what to do with their traffic? If someone doesn't list your sites, just move on to someone that will.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Top Lists are a completely different animal & you can't really compare them to Link Lists. I'm sure there are some similarities, but not enough for this conversation.

How many submits a day were you getting on your "links page"?

I never really pushed it aggrssively so i only got at most about 10 to 20 submits a day. I understand that is nothing to what you must get even in one hour. I had rules too. I know where your coming from. I'm just saying some LL go too far thats all.

Regards!

[Cleo]

Originally posted by Jimbo
like I said in my post,

"... I understand how you can get rape out of it"
So it would be ok then if you passed out and a guy butt fucked you?

[Greenguy]

Well, the give examples of who's gone to far & what they've gone too far with.

Throwing PK's name out there knowing that she doens't post here is not a good way to prove a point.

And you probably don't know that many Link Lists ban people on a daily basis for submitting what we call "template sites" which seem to be what you are bitching about seeing.

So let's here some examples. Post some sites that you've submitted that were declined & we can go from there.

[MrMaryLou]

Originally posted by Jim
Why is it people try to tell other people what to do with their traffic? If someone doesn't list your sites, just move on to someone that will. Well said Jim some just dont get it :(

[Bill]

What specifically do you mean by "going too far"? What rules concern you the most?

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Well, the give examples of who's gone to far & what they've gone too far with.

Throwing PK's name out there knowing that she doens't post here is not a good way to prove a point.

And you probably don't know that many Link Lists ban people on a daily basis for submitting what we call "template sites" which seem to be what you are bitching about seeing.

So let's here some examples. Post some sites that you've submitted that were declined & we can go from there.

Yes, template sites fits it very well! Many like that on PK, if you don't belive me check it out for yourself.

I don't know of any real problems with your LL, and I was not bitching because I did't get accepted, I'm use to it. I thought your message board was one of the better ones I've seen and thougt this would be a great place to discuss what I see as a common problem with most LL. As for this one I do recall reading a post here some where about some guy getting rejected because the pics of some girl did not follow in order, She started out with clothes then strips and half way threw the series she is pictured witha skirt again. That seemed like a odd reason to reject.

I don't know if you remember linking my site a few years ago when it was under the domain name xxxsleeper.com? I recently changed the name to passed-out.com, same site. If it gets accepted great, if not, no biggie.

I can totally understand the need for rules, where we probably differ, and may be we don't, is in personal opinion of legal content. I never meant to address you personally, and if I gave that impression, forgive me, I was addressing, "most" LL.

As for PK, I know her. There is nothing I said that I wouldn't say to her, and we already had simular discussions even on the phone. She knows exactly how I feel about her LL. Great lady, terrible LL.

Regards

[Greenguy]

PK doesn't post here - I don't think she posts anyplace on a regular basis - so bringing up her site & her rules on this board is useless as no one here can answer those questions.

As far as the pics out of order problem, you really think that a free site that has 20 pics total & the girl is naked, then back in her clothes, then naked, then in her panties is good?

How about the ones where she's got a load of cum on her face in pic 14 & then in pics 15-20 have her riding his cock with no goo on her face?

That's just stupid - it's like watching a movie out of order (Pulp Fiction & Memento being the 2 exceptions)

I also looked in my admin:

1 - I don't see xxxsleepers.com in there at all - it may have been listed in the past but is not anymore.

2 - I do see that http-//passed-out.com/ was submitted & I can tell by looking at the 1st page that the recip is under the entrance, there's only one recip on there, there's 2 counters & one of them is loading as a broken image. So you broke 4 rules before I even clicked on the enter link.

Looking further, I see that you have things opening in new windows, which I don't allow either.

Now, even if you fixed all 5 of those things, there is NOTHING that you could say to me to convince me that this page:
http-//passed-out.com/drugged.html
is not RAPE.

PS - I really like the pic of the girl with the gun to her head.

[Cleo]

After seeing what kind of crap you are promoting I just hope someone catches your ass and puts you were you belong. Maybe then you can really appreciate being raped.


|skull|

[MadMax]

So really you're bitching that nobody will list your sites. You're pandering to a market that I have no interest in, and would just as soon not have as surfers. I don't need traffic that wants to jerk off to someone being raped, or looking like they're being raped. That shit isn't even "rape fantasy," which is a niche in itself and an entirely separate conversation. If you were trying to hit that market you'd have sales text to that effect.

This is marketing to people who fantasize about raping women. I'm sure there's some good money in it. There's also probably great money in CP, but I don't want any of it and I don't want any of it listed on my LL.


EDITED TO ADD: By the way, you've got a couple banners that look like you're also promoting incest and underage girls. Nice job on the scumbag hat trick.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Greenguy
PK doesn't post here - I don't think she posts anyplace on a regular basis - so bringing up her site & her rules on this board is useless as no one here can answer those questions.

Fair enough.

As far as the pics out of order problem, you really think that a free site that has 20 pics total & the girl is naked, then back in her clothes, then naked, then in her panties is good?

How about the ones where she's got a load of cum on her face in pic 14 & then in pics 15-20 have her riding his cock with no goo on her face?

is it good design? No. Would I reject for that? No.

That's just stupid - it's like watching a movie out of order (Pulp Fiction & Memento being the 2 exceptions)

So we are film critics after all : )

I also looked in my admin:

1 - I don't see xxxsleepers.com in there at all - it may have been listed in the past but is not anymore.

Yup, use to be listed.

2 - I do see that http-//passed-out.com/ was submitted & I can tell by looking at the 1st page that the recip is under the entrance, there's only one recip on there, there's 2 counters & one of them is loading as a broken image. So you broke 4 rules before I even clicked on the enter link.

Here we would differ as well. I should be able to decide where I put the recip, ccan I tell you where to put my link? and the counter's broken image is their problem.

Looking further, I see that you have things opening in new windows, which I don't allow either.

Oh well, I like it becuase they can view different pages, images at the same time and not loose their place.

Now, even if you fixed all 5 of those things,

I wouldn't. It's my site, I like the way it's designed. And here is why I made the post. Who are you to tell me how to design my page? (no offense, but true)

there is NOTHING that you could say to me to convince me that this page:
http-//passed-out.com/drugged.html
is not RAPE.

like I said earlier, I added rape because nobody (except you a few years ago) ever linked me any way. I'm not about to change my design just to get a few extra hundred hits a day from LL pages. My site is 100% LEGAL. Just like Pulp Fiction!

PS - I really like the pic of the girl with the gun to her head.

one of my favorites too.

May be this illustrates my point and all was not a waste of time. I believe most LL nit pick too much and try to dictate how we should design our pages. From where to put recips, to how many counters, to opening new windows to view the next page or image. The whole concept is flawed. What ends up happening is people who learn how to play the game simply throw together a bogus site just to get linked and throw up banners and links to their real page. or you see bogus advertisements for affiliate programs with pictures they got for free! Mean while rebels and true artists like myself who spend a lot of time and money and YEARS producing ORIGINAL material CAN'T get linked, it's almost laughable. I suppose I should play the game too. After all it would only take me about an hour to make a site that could get accepted, and throw some links up to my real sites. Surely you can see some of my points. As for the rape, do you object to it on the Big Screen or just on web sites?

As far as most LL go, at least you are accessable, and for that I thank you!

Happy Holidays!

[Greenguy]

Wonderful! This fucking scumbag lives about 100 miles away from me. He's also got a couple of other very questionable & probably illegal domains (just look on the whois)

Hey Jim - you know any New York State Troopers that'd be interested in hearing about a guy that runs rape, incest & CP sites?

|banghead|

[DangerDave]

Jimbo...

Nasty Dollars/RK Netmedia might also want to know about your use of stolen content

http://www.sexteengirls.com/main.html

http://www.nastydollars.com/pictures3-376/national_boobgraphic/ines-077.jpg

DD

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by MadMax
So really you're bitching that nobody will list your sites. You're pandering to a market that I have no interest in, and would just as soon not have as surfers. I don't need traffic that wants to jerk off to someone being raped, or looking like they're being raped. That shit isn't even "rape fantasy," which is a niche in itself and an entirely separate conversation. If you were trying to hit that market you'd have sales text to that effect.

This is marketing to people who fantasize about raping women. I'm sure there's some good money in it. There's also probably great money in CP, but I don't want any of it and I don't want any of it listed on my LL.


EDITED TO ADD: By the way, you've got a couple banners that look like you're also promoting incest and underage girls. Nice job on the scumbag hat trick.

PLZ, I would expect a webmaster to know better. All my material is legal and 2257 compliance. I stay well with in all laws. Been in business for 10 years (without relying on LL), will be here in 10 more years. Will you?

Like your banner, Extreme Porn... extreme???

|zzzzzzzzz

[Greenguy]

Even though you are a piece of shit scumbag, I will clarify a few of the rules for those that might be confused as to why they are in place.

recips - no one looks under the enter link, so the recip has to be above it.

counters - they have become very malicious over the last few years with spyware embedded in them & whatnot, so they are not allowed by a lot of people. Learn how to read your server stats.

opening new windows - I have never liked things opening in new windows & if I want them to do so, I can right click & choose for it to do so on my own

Now go get all that 2257 info in order :D

[Cleo]

OMG fucking unbelievable the other crap on his server. |raygun|

[Greenguy]

This thread really needs to be moved out to the General Business forum so that everyone can see what a wonderful piece of shit Jimbo is.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Jimbo
PLZ, I would expect a webmaster to know better. All my material is legal and 2257 compliance. I stay well with in all laws. Been in business for 10 years (without relying on LL), will be here in 10 more years. Will you?

Like your banner, Extreme Porn... extreme???

|zzzzzzzzz

No, I will not be baited. Yes, there is a lot of extreme porn out there that's well worth listing and looking at. Most of it has nothing to do with pandering to the lowest common denominator.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Greenguy
This thread really needs to be moved out to the General Business forum so that everyone can see what a wonderful piece of shit Jimbo is.

Nice greenguy, I post in a polite respectful manor, bring out some valid points, and you resort to name calling.

tell you what, your entitled to your opinion, just like me, and we may differ in opinions, but at least I conducted myself in a professional manor.

I really thought my post would be constructive here. Had I known it would turn ugly I would never have bothered.

But You have a Nice Holiday just the same!

[Greenguy]

I apologize.

You're a professional webmaster that runs rape, incest & CP sites.

You're parents must be proud. Make sure you bring that up at the Christmas dinner.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Greenguy
I apologize.

You're a professional webmaster that runs rape, incest & CP sites.

You're parents must be proud. Make sure you bring that up at the Christmas dinner.

I can not despute the rape, but no incest or cp.
Legal teens and mother & daughters doing the glory hole, but not each other. I think some one must have assumed it was incest because it reads real mother & daughter. GG if I was doing any cp I would not have survived for 10 years. These are unfair accusations I do not appreciate. You must know what cp is here is the definition,
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002256----000-.html

so please, don't accuse me of some thing I am not guilty of.

As for what i do, it pays the bills. I do so much more in my life that is worthwhile that is not associated with porn.

Regards

[Jim]

Jimbo
You are truly the type of person that gives this business a bad name. Weather what you have is real or simulated, it is garbage.

[Greenguy]

My mistake. I thought that people that have sites like ****** Land - http://www.******land.net/ - are pretty much CP scumbags.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=******
Lo·li·ta ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l-lt)
n.
A seductive adolescent girl.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adolescent
ad·o·les·cent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl-snt)
adj.
Of, relating to, or undergoing adolescence. See Synonyms at young.
Characteristic of adolescence; immature: an adolescent sense of humor.

n.
A young person who has undergone puberty but who has not reached full maturity; a teenager.

(and yes, I know that word is banned here)

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Greenguy
My mistake. I thought that people that have sites like ****** Land - http://www.******land.net/ - are pretty much CP scumbags.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=******
Lo·li·ta ( P ) Pronunciation Key (l-lt)
n.
A seductive adolescent girl.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adolescent
ad·o·les·cent ( P ) Pronunciation Key (dl-snt)
adj.
Of, relating to, or undergoing adolescence. See Synonyms at young.
Characteristic of adolescence; immature: an adolescent sense of humor.

n.
A young person who has undergone puberty but who has not reached full maturity; a teenager.

(and yes, I know that word is banned here)

common mistake. a lot of people associate age with cp.
Actually it's legal to show nude models under 18 as long as it is in compliance with 2256. I will admit when it comes to nudity it is a fine line because one person can interpret it as erotic and another artistic. Non-nudes are generally no prob unless it is considered erotic in nature (see 2256). The banned L word you refer to is only banned on LL, some billers, and some search engines. Where the law really gets tricky or debatable is on simulated cp, that is models over 18 dressed up or posed to look like minors engaged in porn. Here even the web's biggest sites and distributors could one day get in trouble should congress ever decide what to do about that.

All my teen material is purchased from web legal and licensed to me. Any one who doubts that is welcomed to a free pass to any site. personally i actually agree with most opinion surrounding the teen market. I just recently had twins and it has really made me rethink everything. Unfortunately I have to pay our bills. We had 1 boy and 1 girl, and it kills me to think about any one thinking about my daughter in the ways my teen sites are portrayed! If I could fill the $ gap with another market I would do it in a heart beat!!! The teen stuff is actually the only thing i am not happy with.

So don't make the mistake of judging some one you do not know.

[RawAlex]

Jimbo, in my mind, you have proven yourself to be a total lowlife scumbag above and beyond.

I wrote parts of my rules for my link site just for dipshits like you:

No illegal or unwanted content, including: warez, hacks, non-nude, models under 18, club seventeen models, escorts, prostitution, nudists, celebs, bestiality, scat, bondage with penetration, degradation, non-consensual sex acts (rape etc), terms such as young teens, young boys, young girls. I reserve the right to decline ANY site that I feel panders to pedophiles, even if the content is "legal". This applies to the content of the site, as well as keywords, meta tags, and any other part of the site at all. NO KP OR PEDOPHILE KEYWORDS, including ******!

Come to canada. Your material is 100% illegal. if I was you, I wouldn't be planning to cross the border any time soon...

Please, go away. Link sites can list whatever they want, and except for a few serious scumbags, you won't get your crap listed.

I love the page you listed before... "hot yung girls - skoolgirl "... so scared that someone will be on to you that you can't even bring yourself to use the real words on your site. Come on, admit it. Your a scumbag, wanna be rapist and pedo.

Please. GO AWAY.

Alex

[RawAlex]

Jimbo, you are correct. There is a NARROW situation where you can have models in compliance with 2256. HOWEVER... you cannot mix and match, You cannot have a 2256 compliant image next to an image of someone fucking. The images themselves are not important as much as presentation is. Your intent, under the law, is as important as any single image.

You cannot have a nude 15 year old on a website called "schoolgirls fucking". The intent is against 2256.

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 110 > Sec. 2256. Prev | Next

Sec. 2256. - Definitions for chapter

For the purposes of this chapter, the term -

(1)

''minor'' means any person under the age of eighteen years;

(2)

''sexually explicit conduct'' means actual or simulated -

(A)

sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex;

(B)

bestiality;

(C)

masturbation;

(D)

sadistic or masochistic abuse; or

(E)

lascivious exhibition of the genitals or pubic area of any person;

(3)

''producing'' means producing, directing, manufacturing, issuing, publishing, or advertising;

(4)

''organization'' means a person other than an individual;

(5)

''visual depiction'' includes undeveloped film and videotape, and data stored on computer disk or by electronic means which is capable of conversion into a visual image;

(6)

''computer'' has the meaning given that term in section 1030 of this title;

(7)

''custody or control'' includes temporary supervision over or responsibility for a minor whether legally or illegally obtained;

(8)

''child pornography'' means any visual depiction, including any photograph, film, video, picture, or computer or computer-generated image or picture, whether made or produced by electronic, mechanical, or other means, of sexually explicit conduct, where -

(A)

the production of such visual depiction involves the use of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;

(B)

such visual depiction is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct;

(C)

such visual depiction has been created, adapted, or modified to appear that an identifiable minor is engaging in sexually explicit conduct; or

(D)

such visual depiction is advertised, promoted, presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that conveys the impression that the material is or contains a visual depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and

(9)

''identifiable minor'' -

(A)

means a person -

(i)

(I)

who was a minor at the time the visual depiction was created, adapted, or modified; or

(II)

whose image as a minor was used in creating, adapting, or modifying the visual depiction; and

(ii)

who is recognizable as an actual person by the person's face, likeness, or other distinguishing characteristic, such as a unique birthmark or other recognizable feature; and

(B)

shall not be construed to require proof of the actual identity of the identifiable minor


If I was you, I would be getting lawyer really quick - you have revealed yourself in public, and the phone calls and emails have already started. Your done.

You might also want to check this out:

The U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Texas, Jane Boyle, announced the unsealing of a three-count federal indictment against a former Dallas Police Officer Garry Layne Ragsdale, 34, and his wife, Tamara Michelle Ragsdale, 32, residents of Fort Worth, Texas.

The indictment, returned in late March, charges each defendant with one count of conspiracy to mail obscene material, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371, two counts of mailing obscene material and aiding and abetting, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 1461 and 2.

The indictment charges that from April 1998 to July 1998, the Ragsdales conspired together, and with others, to sell and distribute obscene videotapes depicting rape scenes through the Internet and the United States mail. The indictment alleges that the Ragsdales owned, managed and maintained a Web site called "geschlecht.com." The web page was named "The Rape Video Store," where the Ragsdales offered obscene videotapes depicting rape scenes, which they categorized on the Web site as the "Real Rape Video Series" and the "Brutally Raped Video Series."

The Ragsdales posted graphically obscene descriptions of the videotapes on their Web site. They duplicated and mailed the tapes from their home after customers paid for the videos with a credit card. Visa, MasterCard, DiscoverCard, are you listening? Corporations Respond to CWA and AT&T Getting the Porn Ring Out of Its Collar (with Visa update).

If convicted on all counts, however, the Ragsdales each face up to 20 years imprisonment and a $750,000 fine. A trial is set for July 14, 2003, before Sidney A. Fitzwater, U.S. District Court Judge.

You better start deleting your hard drive and pulling your sites down now. The phone calls will be made.

Alex

[Cleo]

So Jimbo where do you get most of your traffic from. Who do you trade with?

[RawAlex]

Jimbo, how come if you have 2257 documents for everything, and it is all legal, then why are the "rapists" all have their faces pixelated or black barred?

http-//www.passed-out.com/drunk.html

scum.

Alex

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RawAlex
Jimbo, you are correct. There is a NARROW situation where you can have models in compliance with 2256. HOWEVER... you cannot mix and match, You cannot have a 2256 compliant image next to an image of someone fucking. The images themselves are not important as much as presentation is. Your intent, under the law, is as important as any single image.

You cannot have a nude 15 year old on a website called "schoolgirls fucking". The intent is against 2256.

Intersting point, intent. I brought it up with the simulated stuff, legal models portrayed as minors. But last I heard, this subject is still unsettled in the US Congress, but certainly a intersting point!


If I was you, I would be getting lawyer really quick - you have revealed yourself in public, and the phone calls and emails have already started. Your done.

for what? guilty of bad taste? all my material is legal.

You might also want to check this out:

The U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Texas, Jane Boyle, announced the unsealing of a three-count federal indictment against a former Dallas Police Officer Garry Layne Ragsdale, 34, and his wife, Tamara Michelle Ragsdale, 32, residents of Fort Worth, Texas.

The indictment, returned in late March, charges each defendant with one count of conspiracy to mail obscene material, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371, two counts of mailing obscene material and aiding and abetting, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 1461 and 2.

The indictment charges that from April 1998 to July 1998, the Ragsdales conspired together, and with others, to sell and distribute obscene videotapes depicting rape scenes through the Internet and the United States mail. The indictment alleges that the Ragsdales owned, managed and maintained a Web site called "geschlecht.com." The web page was named "The Rape Video Store," where the Ragsdales offered obscene videotapes depicting rape scenes, which they categorized on the Web site as the "Real Rape Video Series" and the "Brutally Raped Video Series."

The Ragsdales posted graphically obscene descriptions of the videotapes on their Web site. They duplicated and mailed the tapes from their home after customers paid for the videos with a credit card. Visa, MasterCard, DiscoverCard, are you listening? Corporations Respond to CWA and AT&T Getting the Porn Ring Out of Its Collar (with Visa update).

If convicted on all counts, however, the Ragsdales each face up to 20 years imprisonment and a $750,000 fine. A trial is set for July 14, 2003, before Sidney A. Fitzwater, U.S. District Court Judge.

You better start deleting your hard drive and pulling your sites down now. The phone calls will be made.

Intersting story, but I wonder if there is more to it like it's a federal thing because of mail. I can't imagine going to jail for simulated rape pics, unless they werent simulated and were real?

Very interesting post!
Alex

[tiny]

I just can't take it haha.
Why are you folks feeding into this.He wanted to push buttons and he has.
He's scum yeah he is but do ya know how much he'll get outta going to a board like this and starting a dumbass thread.
He said he never relied on LL for traffic so why feed his ego just so he can say he went to GG and Jims and really stirred up some shit on the off chance of getting boardwatch or some poor unknowing webmaster to see his program.
I say spend your energies elsewhere.Not diggin up his links and lookin at his crap

Just me 2 cents thats worth -10 cents

Well back to my favorite show a great ad for birthcontrol Nanny 911 hahaha

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RawAlex
Jimbo, how come if you have 2257 documents for everything, and it is all legal, then why are the "rapists" all have their faces pixelated or black barred?

http-//www.passed-out.com/drunk.html

scum.

Alex

you like that? that was my own touch. Actually, they requested it.

[RawAlex]

yeah, they request it so they can't be easily traced, so they don't have to hide in public.

Jimbo, two words for ya, and they ain't merry christmas. (hint, one of the is off).

Alex

[Cleo]

Those are some wonderful domains you have when a WhoIs is done on Passed-out.com.

Coed-porno.com
Forbiddenangels.com
Fuks.us
Heather-friends.com
Hot4teens.net
Lolitaland.net
Myloli.net
Shemalecandy.com
Violated.ws
Xxxsleeper.com
Babeolicious.com

Registrant:
__ James Kiricov
__ PO BOX 144
__ HAMLIN, New York 14464-0144
__ United States
__
__ Registered through: Register Cheaper .com
__ Domain Name: PASSED-OUT.COM
__ Created on: 24-Dec-01
__ Expires on: 24-Dec-05
__ Last Updated on: 25-Oct-04
__
__ Administrative Contact:
__ Kiricov, James enforcer@frontiernet.net
__ PO BOX 144
__ HAMLIN, New York 14464-0144
__ United States
__ 716-964-5694
__ Technical Contact:
__ , customerservice@networksolutions.com
__ Network Solutions, LLC.
__ 13200 Woodland Park Drive
__ Herndon, Virginia 20171-3025
__ United States
__ 1-888-642-9675 Fax -- 571-434-4620
__
__ Domain servers in listed order:
__ NS1.ACCELERATEDWEB.NET
__ NS2.ACCELERATEDWEB.NET


Or did you not know that this is public record that anyone can look up on you?

[RawAlex]

Hey James, you might want to check out this website too:

http://www.monroecountysheriff.info/

I suspect a good catholic Sherrif with a name like Patrick M. O’Flynn would find your line of "business" most interesting.

Thankfully, they do have an email address :-)

Think! You could be the most well known man in Monroe Country soon!

Alex

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RawAlex
Hey James, you might want to check out this website too:

http://www.monroecountysheriff.info/

I suspect a good catholic Sherrif with a name like Patrick M. O’Flynn would find your line of "business" most interesting.

Thankfully, they do have an email address :-)

Think! You could be the most well known man in Monroe Country soon!

Alex

you know, all of you can take a f**king walk, I've done nothing wrong and you continue to attack me and post personal information about me. So what it can be obtained from whois, that still gives you know right to post all this.

GG i request you remove this thread as it has become a personal attack on me!

I thought this was a better place.

You folks are a trip. Don't worry I'm finished with this place, it's not very friendly at all.

[Jimbo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cleo
[B]Those are some wonderful domains you have when a WhoIs is done on Passed-out.com.

so what?? Terry?

T.T.Z. Enterprises, Inc.
2517 NE 21 Court
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33305
US
954-561-4809


Domain Name: CLEOS-PORN-LINKS.COM

Administrative Contact:
Zamore, Terri cleo@creatureofthenightdesigns.com
2517 NE 21 Court
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33305
US
954-561-4809


Technical Contact:
Zamore, Terri cleo@creatureofthenightdesigns.com
2517 NE 21 Court
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33305
US
954-561-4809


Record last updated 10-08-2002 03:01:13 PM
Record expires on 12-03-2005
Record created on 12-03-2000

Domain servers in listed order:
COBRA.SIMPLECOM.NET 208.62.162.2
NS2.SIMPLECOM.NET 216.77.84.8
NS1.SIMPLECOM.NET 208.62.162.3


hows it feel?

Really I would think you webmasters had better things to do with your time!

[Mandimorgan]

eek. I'm not a link list owner and I'm real new to the board so I probibly have no business even commenting in this thread but that picture with the gun to her head made me want to barf. You said you did some real hard thinking when your twins were born regarding teen stuff but rape is ok? I don't get that.

I was under the assumption that this kind of stuff could quickly land you on the 11pm news and in jail. I'm shocked to hear its legal and don't really understand the loophole.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Mandimorgan
eek. I'm not a link list owner and I'm real new to the board so I probibly have no busines even commenting in this thread but that picture with the gun to her head made me want to barf. You said you did some real hard thinking when your twins were born regarding teen stuff but rape is ok? I don't get that.

I was under the assumption that this kind of stuff could quickly land you on the 11pm news and in jail. I'm shocked to hear its legal and don't really understand the loophole.

I will reply to your post because I can see you mean no harm and are sincere in your post.

My site really isn't about rape per say, rape LL won't link me because it's too calm. I only recently added stuff like the gun pic. I can undertand a woman's perspective on this, but this iste originated as simply a site about wives and girlfriends asleep, it slowly took on it's own shape from member requests. I even have females doing past out females, and females doing passed out males. It's a fantasy fetish that some find erotic, others find distasteful. It's a niche I sort of stumbled on and for years I resisted the full fledge rape style pics but got offered some sets at good prices and decided to use. Nobody was linking me any way so what the hey. Actually the husband and wife that did that set and some others said they really had fun doing it. But I can certainly understand how a woman can find it offensive, hell it seems we have a lot of men here that do as well, yet I can tell you the conversion on this is very high. How I justify it to myself is I put it there for those who like it, there are enough of them that like it to keep it going for all these years. It's really getting harder for me to justify the teen stuff even though it is all book legal. If I had it my way, I would drop the teen stuff and milk the passed out and amateur and shemale stuff I have. The reason I feel better about the passed out stuff is I KNOW who made the pics, I know the models, I know nobody got hurt. I don't believe I am pandering to would be rapists. The teen stuff I have a lot of problems with. First of all it's not my material, I bought it from distributors, I'm not so sure who I am pandering to and how much harm it causes, not just my stuff be most teen sites, we all try to push the envelope and stay legal. And finally, when I look in to my babies eyes i feel just terrible about the teen s**t we push. It just bothers me more. See I know my passed out site is safe, I'm really not so sure about the teen stuff despite being legal, follow me?


Kindest Regards!

[Mandimorgan]

thats nice but its not the husband and wife team making the image that bothers me its the freaks who are looking at it. Even passed out or drunk is rape no matter how you look at it.. it just is.

For all you know the freaks who are your members may someday actually rape someone if they haven't already and that money you are making in my opinion is tainted by that. I have little limits with regards to anything porn but if it was a choice between living under a bridge or feeding rapists spank material I'd much rather place my kids in fostercare and live under the bridge. Thats just me though. I'm thrilled the men on this board find it just as disturbing as the women do.. says much about their character.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Mandimorgan
thats nice but its not the husband and wife team making the image that bothers me its the freaks who are looking at it. Even passed out or drunk is rape no matter how you look at it.. it just is.

For all you know the freaks who are your members may someday actually rape someone if they haven't already and that money you are making in my opinion is tainted by that. I have little limits with regards to anything porn but if it was a choice between living under a bridge or feeding rapists spank material I'd much rather place my kids in fostercare and live under the bridge. Thats just me though. I'm thrilled the men on this board find it just as disturbing as the women do.. says much about their character.

Fair enough! But if you ever met me you would never believe I run adult sites, I'm a gentleman and a nice person. But I've been involved in sales for so long I just natrually go for where the money is. it's not personal for me at all. If the money was at naked over weight grand mothers guess what kind of site I'd have? I like the passed out stuff because it's been my longest running site along with my shemale stuff, which btw, I had my first shemale site way back in 1994! There were only 2 other shemale sites then. The teen stuff pays more bills but I really hate it these days. I tried other stuff, babolicious, which was super models, the stuff I actually like, but I couldn't make a dime off it!

Regards!

[RawAlex]

Jimbo, it's Terri with an "i"...

Passed out, drunk, bound, gun point, whatever... it's all non consentual sex. You can't hide behind the 2257 documents, because there is no proof that the model wasn't also forced to sign those documents.

Therefore, you fall through into that nasty space where the documents cannot be 100% certified as good. So your in trouble!

Alex

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RawAlex
Jimbo, it's Terri with an "i"...

Passed out, drunk, bound, gun point, whatever... it's all non consentual sex. You can't hide behind the 2257 documents, because there is no proof that the model wasn't also forced to sign those documents.

Therefore, you fall through into that nasty space where the documents cannot be 100% certified as good. So your in trouble!

Alex

well I guess you ended my 10 year run on the passed out stuff, good job officer friendly, only one problem, I'm NOT breaking any laws! You think nobody has ever complained about my sites before? The worse that has ever happened to me is may be I loose a server and have to find a new one. 10 years Alex, you folks have not uncovered any thing new or illegal here. Sorry to disppoint you.

[Mandimorgan]

<it's not personal for me at all>


Great to hear, I hope it continues to never be personal for you or for your daughter. For me though, I know too many women who have been drug raped or out and out attacked to say the same. Your site is beyond disturbing and regardless of your status as a gentleman or a pillar of your community I hope you get locked up. If I knowingly sold a murderer a gun knowing he might use it to kill someone I could face legal issues even if that murder didn't affect me personally. I think the same principles should apply here as well.

[Useless]

Originally posted by Jimbo

You folks are a trip. Don't worry I'm finished with this place, it's not very friendly at all.

Then leave already. You can stop replying like you said you would and this thread will go the way of the do-do. But if you insist on attempting to defend your indefensble content, this could go on forever. You've nothing to gain here. You've managed to put yourself on everyone's radar and have probably been reported to all of the major search engines (your only source of traffic) and perhaps the authorities. If you want this discussion to go away, then you must go away.

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by Useless Warrior
Then leave already. You can stop replying like you said you would and this thread will go the way of the do-do. But if you insist on attempting to defend your indefensble content, this could go on forever. You've nothing to gain here. You've managed to put yourself on everyone's radar and have probably been reported to all of the major search engines (your only source of traffic) and perhaps the authorities. If you want this discussion to go away, then you must go away.

I will be going to bed soon and that will be the end of it. Your right though, there is no point in replying as it keeps the thread going,. btw, search engines only give me about 10% of my traffic. I get most of my traffic from sending bulk unsolicited emails i send out from addresses I scrape up from boards like this ; )

only kidding...

[docholly]

you know after reading this post and looking at some of the pics on the site posted.. i have come to realize....

i have lead a very "sheltered" life.

|rasta|

[RawAlex]

Jimbo, 10 years and you still can't get traffic?

Wow.

I checked your sites, I couldn't find the address for the custodian of records. Care to enlighten me?

Alex

[RawAlex]

Oh yeah, Jimbo, in case you ain't up to date (and apparently you are not):

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txn/PressRel04/gartman_ind_pr.html

I personally made sure that Gartman got nailed (and I have the press clippings from various texas newspapers to prove it).

Welcome to being on my radar. Your next.

Alex

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by RawAlex
Jimbo, 10 years and you still can't get traffic?

Wow.

I checked your sites, I couldn't find the address for the custodian of records. Care to enlighten me?

Alex

ahh come on alex, you know 2257 records are flawed remember.
and who said I don't get any traffic? now you are reading between the lines too? Great detective work. No I don't care to enlighten you. cya

[RawAlex]

So now you also admit to not having valid documents or a valid custodian of records?

Man, you are a dumbfuck.

Alex

[Mishi]

Originally posted by Jimbo
Fair enough! But if you ever met me you would never believe I run adult sites, I'm a gentleman and a nice person.

This says an awful lot about your character. The vast majority of people I've met in this industry are respectable, lovely people who feel no need to apologize for what they do. Evidently you feel some shame about your chosen profession of ten years. Perhaps if you didn't pander to the lowest common denominator, you wouldn't have these issues.

[Cleo]

Originally posted by Jimbo
hows it feel?

Really I would think you webmasters had better things to do with your time!
I'm not the amoral moron running rape, CP, and incest sites so unlike you I have nothing to hide.

I really do hope that you are banned and removed from society. You are worse then scum and have no place in this business or as a functioning member of society. You are promoting violence to woman and harm to those too young to protect themselves. You are nothing but predator seeking self gratification and financial gain by harming others.

[Tommy]

Personally, I always liked the sites PK lists

there were even times where I wished my submits were more like hers


This guy is full of shit

[Opti]

Originally posted by Greenguy
My mistake. I thought that people that have sites like ****** Land - http://www.******land.net/ - are pretty much CP scumbags.


Would owning the .com version of that domain make the person pretty much a CP scumbag too Greenguy?

l olitaland.com for those that can't read through the censorship.

[Jim]

I would say yes, no wait...no :)
I know you weren't talking to me opti and to tell you the truth, I have never had anything against the word ******. I have nothing against any words as a matter of fact.

And, if Jimbo (Change your name please Jimbo) only had that domain, I would have had no problem with him. But, as you can see, he is much more than the owner of a "Bad Word" domain.

[Greenguy]

Could I get myself out from under the bus if I said that I posted "sites like..." and not "domains like..."?? :D

In the past, I've owned a couple domains that I wish I never bought, but I never put up questionable material.

whois shows ownership change in April 2003 & wayback shows a change to the FPA after that, so it might have been just bought because it had traffic?

I'm just guessing - I'll let him post if he so chooses.

[Opti]

I actually dont care about that site myself either Jim. I prefer to judge my own work and let others choose what they think is ok too :)

It would take a webmaster doing a lot worse than what that site has been used for (most of the time) for me to write them off as a bad human being.

I don't like Jimbo's work at all... in fact I hate it a lot... but I give him kudos for publicly defending what he believes.. and standing behind what he does!

Sorry about the bus GG.. was never my intention and the driver has been asked to pull over quietly for a week or two and here he is in a thread scolding someone about the same shit he does as per normal. I figured you mentioned that domain as you really wanted someone to bring this up anyway ;-)) Couldn't have just been co-incidence!!

We all know he won't post about this as he has no balls.. no balls at all... But it's for the best anyway as he can't explain that site I'm afraid... too many people have seen it over too many years. :( And quite frankly, I doubt you would want him to open that can of worms in public, I sure don't. It would be sweeeet to see him explain why he is too spineless to stand behind what he does like this Jimbo "Scumbag" does though! :D

They both make me sick but I know without hesitation which person I would prefer to share my dinner table with..

[Kezza]

I am quite revolted by Jimbos sites... and surprised that he is surprised that he can't get listed at link lists... It is sites like these that give legitimate adult webmasters who are targetting legitimate porn surfers, a bad name.

As far as the term l.olita, I agree with Jim, it is a legitimate word when used in the correct context, just as young, girl and boy are legitimate words. But when they are used in domain names and associated with porn, regardless what is on the domain, the owner of the domain must be using it to target a certain type of surfer. Why else would the owner of a domain go to the trouble of registering and renewing it.

Jimbo needs to crawl back into the hole that he came from, and anyone else associated with similar domains need to take a good hard look themselves and/or their associates.

[PK]

Try being sued more than once because some teenager decided to go to school with a gun and murder several people and some attorney decides to get his name in the news by using the fact that the kid(s) viewed internet porn and you happen to have a site found in the cache on the computer he(they) had access to....

Have the FBI show up at your door because your name is on a list of candidates for home invasions and murder because they feel you link inappropriate material and then have the FBI look in detail at exactly what you link to and how questionable any of it might be.....

then see what you will and will not list.

Also.. unwritten in the rules, but while I'm on my soapbox.. ..

I don't like the word C*nt.... use it in a submission (not saying anyone here has) and I won't list the site... my perogative...

I also don't like anything that plays at the idea of female (or male for that matter) rape or torture, etc. I don't like it.. I won't list it... my perogative...

So someone visits my site and they're looking for things I don't list... they'll go elsewhere and find it. It's likely that person won't click on banners for sites I'm promoting, let alone purchase a membership to something.

on and GG...hehe..who says I don't post here?

[Cleo]

Nice to se you posting PK. :)

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by PK
Try being sued more than once because some teenager decided to go to school with a gun and murder several people and some attorney decides to get his name in the news by using the fact that the kid(s) viewed internet porn and you happen to have a site found in the cache on the computer he(they) had access to....

Have the FBI show up at your door because your name is on a list of candidates for home invasions and murder because they feel you link inappropriate material and then have the FBI look in detail at exactly what you link to and how questionable any of it might be.....

then see what you will and will not list.

Also.. unwritten in the rules, but while I'm on my soapbox.. ..

I don't like the word C*nt.... use it in a submission (not saying anyone here has) and I won't list the site... my perogative...

I also don't like anything that plays at the idea of female (or male for that matter) rape or torture, etc. I don't like it.. I won't list it... my perogative...

So someone visits my site and they're looking for things I don't list... they'll go elsewhere and find it. It's likely that person won't click on banners for sites I'm promoting, let alone purchase a membership to something.

on and GG...hehe..who says I don't post here?

Hi kitty,

been there, done that, still here, the same. The short version.

I am no stranger to controversy, I had one of the most controversial topsites in the world for about 4 years, Lucifer's Toplist, where nothing was censored accept REAL illegal stuff, not perceived illegal stuff. We had skin heads, neo-nazi's, punks, goths, you name it they came. Marlyn Manson signed our guest book 2 years in a row, was mentioned on the Howard Stern Show, investigated several times, got numourous threats, the whole nine yards kitty. But as offensive as that topsite was, and it was more then a topsite, visitors could post their own pics, message board, etc., it broke no laws. I had several volunteer to maintain the site because we constantly had to remove sites that were illegal, basically as long as it was legal we didn't care, but we had a sh*t load of stuff we had to remove regularly. The only things that got removed was animal sh*t and REAL CP.

Around the time of the Colombine Shooting my assistant put the shooters pictures on our splash page, as we do feature regular guests on our splash page. Man we got a lot of heat over that. My host who had the most balls I seen any one have was getting nervous too. Every one got phone calls, and emails, and I asked my assistant why she put the shooters pics up "in loving memory", she said that what they did was wrong, but they were victims too. Cool, the pics stayed and the only thing that happened was a lot of people got pissed. They got over it.

I happen to be a firm believer of free speech and strongley oppose censorship of any kind. I totally agree we should all stay with in the laws, I just frown at self censorship and policing ourselves. I understand we need some rules and guidelines, but feel too many of us go too far! Eventually I had to give up my topsites because they were no longer paying for themselves.

As you can see I still have controversial sites such as passed-out.om, which btw, I've had REAL police officers do the male model for us on several sets like on our legal page,
http-//passed-out.com/legal.html

Hey, I know that you folks can do what ever you want on your pages. Thats exactly what I am doing too. What I don't get is why we all being in the same business, some are so easily offended and "suprised" and even more, not fimilar with what the Laws really are. Call me a scumbag, fine, thats an opinion, but accusing me of breaking laws is unfair. Sh*t, llike I said I've used real cops as models several times for my stuff!

Happy Holidays!

[Greenguy]

Originally posted by PK
on and GG...hehe..who says I don't post here? Well, anyone else want to throw me under a bus for my posts in this thread? :D

Nice to see you PK |waves|

[Cheerful1]

Interesting thread thank you for the newsletter.
Jimbo you scare me. Not only what you pander to but you don't seem to see the harm in it :(
I spent a good many years in a federal prison (holding the keys) talking to people who could justify whatever they did. Saying it was perfectly legal if you looked at it "this" way. That x was borderline legal if you ignored the intent.
That society was too straightlaced hide bound or just prudish...
Saying that child was willing or that money just laying there or crack never really hurt anyone... or whatever.
They scared me because they lacked the ability to see the damage or the potential damage of their actions or they were too horny greedy or angry to look.
Most were perfectly nice people a few were perfect gentlemen,which did not change one whit the damage their actions caused.

You scare me for that same reason. Maybe you are not behind bars but your words have the same ring of..."no body loves me but i do what I want to anyway look at me", ignoring the damage to others.
I feel for you but feel for those who might be influenced by you and your images as you pander to the unhealthy in your search for personal comfort and wealth.

[Tommy]

Hello Pk, Nice to see you

[Jim]

Always good to see you PK |waves|

[Tommy]

Cheerful1
that was a good post

but the same agument could be made against all pornographers

Personally I think this Jimbo guy is full of shit,
been there done that...... Sure you have

[Jim]

Not really anything to do with this thread and only a TV show, I saw a Law and Order SVU episode a couple of nights ago that was really interesting. Although it is only a TV show, it is "Ripped from the Headlines" :)

So, this convicted child molester gets out of jail. He gets spammed by a "legal" site that had legal girls made to look illegal. 40 times this guy tried to opt-out of the spam list but was ignored. He ended up grabbing a little girl, rapped her and then killed her. The owner of the site was charged and convicted of facilitating the rape and murder of this child because they ignored the guys opt-out.

[Cheerful1]

Actually Jim your post probably does have a lot to do with this thread. With the current political climate we as webmasters will be held more and more accountable for what we post and what we promote.
Tommy was correct in saying are the same words from my earlier post could be said of any pornographer. What we also, at least most of us can say is...
If someone sees my images of shemales and decides to experiment with one. I will not feel badly I will not lose sleep over it, perhaps he/she found their true self.
Or a bored housewife decides to feel up her girlfriend because she saw one of my lesbian sites I wont feel badly. Good on them. If a couple gets horny and makes it in the pool because of one of my sites or someone decides to experiment with anal sex I still will not feel badly. If a couple gets out the handcuffs and decides to be a bit kinky cause i posted a site on bondage it wont make me lose sleep.
If a guy is prompted to try on his wife's panties or jerks off on a pair of pantyhose because of some image and text that I posted , well good for him kinky is good too.
What most of us promote is sex. pure and simple healthy sex or kinky sex or fun sex or messy sex or even sneaky sex, and every bit of it consensual, what none of us promote or at least I hope not is forced or drugged or immature varieties of that same subject.
I can live and sleep well, with the consequences, I don't fear the legality of it or even borderline legalities of what I post, the domains I own and the people who are probably looking for what I am trying to sell, as can most of the reputable people I know in this business :)
I think we can most of us ask ourselves if someone took what we are promoting, the fantasy literally and carried it out...would a crime be committed?
If the answer is no, then you are not posting what Jimbo is.

[RawAlex]

Jimbo, what you don't understand (or have chosen not to understand) is that it isn't just about what you see as legal (and what you have been able to fast talk others into thinking is legal) but about taking the right steps to make sure you are well within the law.

Your supposed toplist story is a perfect example. If you are taking a shitload of illegal stuff off the list every day, a sane person would say "okay, no more automatic listings, submit and I will approve you to be on the toplist". Instead, you take the easy way out, which is to kill off what you see as illegal after the public has been exposed to it for any length of time before you decide to edit.

Yes, in that situation, what you are doing is "legal", but it isn't very smart and shows that you have little intent to really stop the stuff.

Basically, you show poor moral judgement, and appear to have little or no clear understanding of the relationship between the material you "choose" to publish and it's effect on certain segments of the population.

The "rape" deal is a perfect example of what you don't understand. The images on your sites, in your videos and pictures, push the buttons of people who are predirected towards this sort of thing. You are publishing a site that basically says "hey, rape's okay, and here's the movies to prove it AND SHOW YOU HOW". If any single person goes out as a result and rapes someone, you are an accomplice in the crime. MAYBE NOT LEGALLY, but morally.

"child art" sites are just as sick. They teach potential pedos that looking at naked kids is "good" and "artistic". It is a major step up from drooling on the sears catalog. Again, you are showing them the "HOW". You are encouraging their fantasies and showing them how to put them into place in the real world. If any single person goes out and molests a child as a result of seeing these sites, then you are an accomplice in the crime. MAYBE NOT LEGALLY, but morally.

That lack of morals means that you are pushing stuff to the very edge (and based on court cases sited, pretty far past the edge) because you don't see WHY it should be against the law, and you choose a viewpoint that makes it impossible for you to see why you shouldn't do it.

Porn, XXX, whatever, should be oriented towards PLEASURE. It's about everyone getting off. It's about sexual pleasure, alone or shared. Rape, child molesting, and sex with passed out girls isn't about pleasure for any of them.

I suggest you go get your moral compass checked out before you stay in business.

Rochester has a nice newspaper. They are going to LOVE you.

Alex

[Boogie]

I've not posted in this thread until now but wanted to chime in and point something out.

Smartest thing said in this thread was:

So someone visits my site and they're looking for things I don't list... they'll go elsewhere and find it. It's likely that person won't click on banners for sites I'm promoting, let alone purchase a membership to something.

This is in and of itself part of the reasons link sites have rules. :)

PK brings up excelent points above, all of them valid, but the most important aspect is this.

We're not here to make YOU money, we're here to make BOTH of us money. Me, and the submitter.

I dont have rape sponsors, I dont want to list rape sites. Along with all of the other reasons I wont list rape sites, this one should be the most obvious to anyone producing that kind of content.

If the people who want this come to my site and see only mainstream banners, how am I going to profit here? I wont. Pure and simple.

Bet your sweet ass that if every "anal sex" sponsor pulled their shit and dissapeared tomorrow, every linklist in the world would stop promoting it.

Cut and dried, game set and match. :p



-----edit----

And sure. I think the kind of content you're producing is way off of my moral compass and I dont want to view it, distribute it, link to it, share it, etc. Its just .... wow.

But I didnt think that needed to be said :) I think its pretty obvious that you're prodding the wrong crowd trying to win them over onto the side of the crazy shit you're doing.

[PK]

Good points, Boogie.

Something along the lines of my post that I failed to mention last night.

Just as there are visitors seeking odd/niche/outrageous/borderline sites, there are also visitors that are apalled by it. If this type of visitor happened across such a listing anywhere, they would be less likely to come back. I know I have had visitors email me questioning an image or gallery they found linked from my list. A large part of my business is all about keeping the surfer coming back and perhaps purchasing something from time to time.

Heck.. it wasn't until 2 or 3 years ago that I would even post a listing with the word 'teen' in the title. Guess it's just the mother in me.

I've been sued twice along with the likes of Time Warner and Sony because of school shootings in Paducah, Ky and Colombine. I didn't particularly enjoy living several years waiting for the outcome of the Paducah case which was ruled on, went to appeal, then even to the Supreme Court for possible review. I sure didn't want to be part of paying out on a $120million settlement because of what some teenager decided to do. Nor did I enjoy the publicity or the scrutinity it brought.

[Boogie]

Heck.. it wasn't until 2 or 3 years ago that I would even post a listing with the word 'teen' in the title. Guess it's just the mother in me.

You rejected my first free site on this basis. :) good times.

PK its a pleasure seeing you post on the only board I even read any more. I sure would love to see you hanging out here more often :)

[MrYum]

I got nothing to add to the general concensus of ol Jimbo...think that's been made pretty damn clear. Geez, what a Tool...guys like him make us all look bad :(

That said, it's very refreshing to see that the vast majority of us here are of a similar mindset :)

The key to what we do...what makes it okay...or even BETTER than okay...makes it a GOOD thing...is that it's always CONSENSUAL. And it's always about PLEASURE.

Admittedly, the pleasure of some is vastly different than the pleasure of others...which is where consent comes into play.

If consenting ADULTS want to do it...it's all good :)

Thanks folks...given the way this thread started...it's very cool that...at least speaking for myself...I get a very positive outlook from the responses :)

|shake| to one and all...except Jimbo of course!

[Opti]

Originally posted by PK
Good points, Boogie.

Something along the lines of my post that I failed to mention last night.

Just as there are visitors seeking odd/niche/outrageous/borderline sites, there are also visitors that are apalled by it. If this type of visitor happened across such a listing anywhere, they would be less likely to come back. I know I have had visitors email me questioning an image or gallery they found linked from my list. A large part of my business is all about keeping the surfer coming back and perhaps purchasing something from time to time.

I have a poll running asking sufers hopw hardcore they like it... and 70% of people that have responded prefer something less than all out hardcore.

In fact 50% of voters like the hardcore level to be lower than what is "legally" allowed.

http://www.**************.com/polls/index.php?dispid=17&vo=17

Glamor and bikini models 6%
Softcore for the photography 4%
Softcore for the babes 7%
Explicit sex acts 12%
Hardcore but with nothing degrading 21%
Any hardcore that is legal 19%
Extreme anything goes hardcore 32%

votes: 1012

[mikeyddddd]

I have not looked at Jimbo's sites nor do I plan to look at any of them. I wish he had not used examples from sites with such questionable content because he does make some valid points.

I understand that there have to be rules for the link lists and TGP's because common sense is not so common and there will always be someone more than willing to demonstrate that. It is the right of the link list and TGP owners to decide what they want to list. But, most of the rules are designed to keep surfers happy and coming back to the link list or TGP so there is a greater chance that they will buy something from one of the link list or TGP ads. Anyone who says the owners are interested in the submitters making money is just blowing smoke up everyone's ass. If that's the case, why not split the money made each day with all the sites that were listed? It is not such a symbiotic relationship. The owners know that they will always have a supply of submissions that they can feed the surfers.

I have to agree with Jimbo that the rules stifle creativity and you do end up with a lot of sites that look the same. There are only so many combinations and permutations that a free site with an entrance page, a main page and two pages of galleries can have.
Surfers are desensitized to most of the layouts because they have seen them so many times before.

I prefer to build for SE traffic but occasionally submit free sites and galleries when I want a traffic spike to kick start an internal link list, TGP or toplist. I still see a few hits a day from link-o-rama and cleoslinks for sites submitted over a year ago. But, I prefer to do things my way without following someone else's rules. I'll pop a console on ya in a heartbeat, sucka. Consoles make money and if the link list owners were concerned about my welfare they would allow consoles in their rules. But, if they did I know there would be people popping consoles with all kinds of nasty shit in them. That is one reason I don't use counters. The other being that they usually slow down a page load and I want a surfer to see my stuff. I do not want them to close my page because it is too slow.

When I surf I like to have multiple windows open so I can jump back and forth without waiting for the next or previous page to load. I've already got it open and I just go click the window I want to see. gg, if you just want to use one window that's cool. I don't.

As for the lawsuits and legal action taken against webmasters, that just goes back to the fact that no one wants to take responsibility for their actions. They want to blame someone else for their failures. There are a number of reasons that I would place more blame on the parents of those involved in PK's case - lack of supervision, failure to teach their children right from wrong when they were younger, passing on their dumbass gene to start with, etc.

I report kp sites every time I see one or receive spam in email. Even those that are "artistic". I just close my browser when I get into any of the other stuff involving consenting adults. I'm sure that crap sells but I don't want to see it much less promote it.

This has been an excellent thread with a lot of good points made by all. I just wish Jimbo had used better examples so as not to get bogged down in his content.

Hey, gg. Honk! Honk!

[Mishi]

Originally posted by mikeyddddd
Anyone who says the owners are interested in the submitters making money is just blowing smoke up everyone's ass. If that's the case, why not split the money made each day with all the sites that were listed?

I want my submitters to make money off their links on my list. If they don't, why should they keep submitting? And if they don't keep submitting, why should my surfers keep coming back? It's a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" situation, IMO.

As for "...why not split the money made each day with all the sites that were listed" - just, no. I am working to get the traffic. I am working to target it to the right sites. Submitters: write a good description, get a lot of clicks, have a good site, make sales.

I am relatively new to link list ownership (at least, on a serious level) and it is a difficult dance - it is not at all easy to keep submitters happy and also keep the link list profitable.

I am also a free site builder and submitter. It takes me an hour a day to submit to a couple dozen link lists. Maintaining my own list takes much more than that. It's much more than just auditing submissions.

[Greenguy]

Aside from what Mishi said, which I agree with....

Originally posted by mikeyddddd
When I surf I like to have multiple windows open so I can jump back and forth without waiting for the next or previous page to load. I've already got it open and I just go click the window I want to see. gg, if you just want to use one window that's cool. I don't. I have 2 windows open right now. Why? Because the thread I was on before I read this one had something that I wanted to look as, so I right clicked the link & choose to have it open in a new window. I like choice rather then force :D

And the "new window" thing did really start back in 98 or so when people would pop the new window & meta refresh the page that had the link to a sponsor or something like that - you don't see it too much these days - maybe because of the rules myself & other put into place 6 years ago - but that's what started it off for me.

One other thing - and I do aks everyone this one - have you ever run a Link List?

[MadMax]

The other day I had to decline an extreme bondage site because it had one pic of a Domme pointing a gun at a bound submissive. I didn't decline it because of this thread or because of the possible legal ramifications. I really declined it because I don't want to link to that kind of content. Most of the set was actually some decent shots.

I'm willing to link to some things that others don't, but every bit of it falls into the category of "consenting adults not injuring, terrifying or taking advantage of each other." Sure, it's a subjective standard, but that's why there's a reviewer. Much of the BDSM out there pushes this standard, but I'm a member of the "real world" BDSM community so I'm in a better position to understand the surfers and the frame of mind that comes with the lifestyle than the average person. Still, the law has tried to burn me because of porn. It was many years ago and had little to do with the internet, but as PK said if you've never been under that microscope you can't possibly understand how your views will change afterwards, regardless of the outcome.

In the end we have to CHOOSE to take responsibility, because as PK pointed out if you have any measure of success there is someone out there who will try to foist responsibility on you. I feel it's better to be a pro-active member of a community, to be able to lean on others when we need a hand or a lesson on something, and to have others know that you've got some character in the event that bad shit goes down.

[mikeyddddd]

I like choice rather than force, too. But, sometimes you need to nudge the surfer along to where you want them to go.

No, I have not run a link list or TGP that accepts submissions. I don't want to deal with the fucktards like you have to do. There are too many schemers, scammers and cheaters out there to waste my time with them. I don't like the traffic trading scripts because of that, too. The cheating and dishonesty is the worst part of this business. I only trade hard links with people I know.

I know all the LL & TGP owners work hard to develop their brand and some have become very successful. They can make their rules and do whatever they want with their business.

But there is a conflict between owners and submitters because of the cheaters. Consoles and FPA's are tools that make money but are not allowed. Another one is putting pics on html pages. Link-o-rama does allow that. Some don't. I do like the link-o-rama rule that the content should be in order. That makes sense.

One of the rules at some places that I don't understand is only allowing the sponsor's domain name on mouseovers. Why not allow a few keywords to be thrown in there? It would help with some of the SE's which would get more traffic for the owner and submitter.

I stand by my statement that owners are not interested in submitters making money because they will always have someone else ready with a submission. Unless you know someone why would you care?

[Tommy]

Originally posted by mikeyddddd


One of the rules at some places that I don't understand is only allowing the sponsor's domain name on mouseovers. Why not allow a few keywords to be thrown in there? It would help with some of the SE's which would get more traffic for the owner and submitter.



because what you end up with is a mouseover on every pic that says

free pic 1
free pic 2
etc
or a bunch of other dirty tricks


do you know how many things you can do with mouseovers
its endless

rules have to be clear
there cant be rules for jimmy and sally and then another set for everyone else

what happens when webmaster X wants to know why he wasnt listed and there is no real reason just a maybe it was this or maybe it was that

submiting eats up a lot of time
and because it does there has to be a concreate set of rules in place

this way a person knows if they can stay within these rules they should get listed

fair and square for everyone

[MadMax]

Originally posted by mikeyddddd
I stand by my statement that owners are not interested in submitters making money because they will always have someone else ready with a submission. Unless you know someone why would you care?

Because success doesn't work for a single person standing alone. I work hard at building traffic to my LL, so my submitters have a reason to keep submitting. I offer a service to both surfers and webmasters, and if I'm only taking care of one or the other there's no reason for me to be here.

Sure, I want to make some cash off of my link list. I also want my submitters to make money and be successful. Not just a few of them, all of them. The more successful they are the more successful I am. I get more listings full of keywords for the search engines, I get more links back to me, I get people looking forward to getting their sites listed.

I take no offense to your statement, but I will stand by my position that it's simply not true...as will most if not all of the LL owners who post here.

[mikeyddddd]

Yes, I do know what you can do with mouseovers. I have been a programmer for over 20 years, the last five on the web using Javascript, Perl, PHP, mySQL, etc. When the owner of another board is asked about a programmer, I am one of two or three people he thinks of.

I never said there should be different rules for different people.

I understand there has to be rules. I said I don't like some of the rules that are necessary because of the cheaters. So I don't submit that often. When I do submit I follow the rules because that is part of the implicit agreement to get listed.

If someone does not follow the rules, don't list them. The submission that doesn't follow the rules is a waste of the reviewer's time because they do not get a new listing to add to keep the surfers coming back. I am wasting my time if I submit a site that does not follow the rules for that submission.

If someone changes their site in order to break the rules after they are listed then ban them or blacklist them. Those are the shitheads that make things harder for everyone else.

I appreciate the work involved in running a site that accepts submissions. I also appreciate the work involved in building a site to conform to all the different rules of places that accept submissions.

I thank you for your concern about my well being when I submit a site to you.

Let's agree to disagree and get back to work making money.

[Greenguy]

Originally posted by mikeyddddd
...No, I have not run a link list or TGP that accepts submissions. I don't want to deal with the fucktards like you have to do.... Walk a mile in my shoes & all that other honky horse shit....if you've never done it, you can only begin to grasp why we do what we do.



Originally posted by mikeyddddd
...Consoles and FPA's are tools that make money but are not allowed... There's a lot of things that "make money" that we don't allow, so you can't really just pick one or 2 that you like & just defend them. Iframes, blind links, autoinstalls, dialers....I could go on & on :)

[mikeyddddd]

As Billy Connolly says, " Walk a mile in a man's shoes and you're a mile away with his shoes."

I also said I appreciate the work involved in running a site that accepts submissions. I know you have to deal with a lot of bull shit I choose not to do so.

I know you see a lot of crap that I don't because fucktards are trying to slip something by on you. They're not trying to slip it by me because I don't want to deal with them.

Send me a list of the dirtiest URL's from your submissions that pop chained consoles loading autoinstallers, dialers and all that other crap. I'll review them on my main computer, not a spare one, so I have to reinstall my software and recover all my data. Send me some more URL's that are using stolen content. Send me a few emails from numbnuts that didn't read the rules and want to know why they didn't get listed. Then maybe I'll begin to grasp what you do. Just thinking about it makes my fucking head hurt. I quit. I'm becoming a Mormon and leaving for a two year mission. Where's my bicycle?

[Black Cat]

nice to see you PK!