Bye Bye iBill

[Cleo]

Two pages of badly scanned documents in PDF format.
http://www.caryromanoff.com/evidence1.pdf
http://www.caryromanoff.com/evidence2.pdf

[Torn Rose]

Geeze.... after all these years of hearing it was shutting down will this be the real thing?

[Cleo]

I was having a hell of a time ready those scans.

Someone was nice enough to post the text.

IBill, First Data in Contract Dispute
By Gretchen Gallen
Tuesday, September 21, 2004


NEW YORK – Third-party payment processor iBill filed a complaint against First Data Merchant Services Corp. alleging that the company is costing iBill $800,000 per day because it failed to make good on the promise to help transition its accounts to another credit card processor after the expiration of a contract dating back to 1998.
In legal documents obtained by XBiz, iBill contends that it could go out of business by as early as next week if the Court does not issue a temporary restraining order against First Data.

In papers filed in New York Supreme Court, iBill alleges that First Data's failure to fulfill its promise to work with the third-party processor as it moved customer accounts over to New York-based Merrick Bank could cause "irreparable harm" to its business and customer base.

IBill has been using First Data Merchant Service and First Bank Financial, collectively known as First Data, as the processor for its credit card receipts for the past six years. IBill's contract with First Data technically expired on Sept. 15.

The plaintiff, iBill, had expected the transition to be completed by Nov. 15, but now claims that First Data reneged on the promise and put iBill and its business process in jeopardy and could possibly result in iBill's closure.

IBill claims that by noon on Sept. 16, the day after its official contract with First Data expired, the credit card processor would no longer process iBill's credit card transactions, leaving iBill in the lurch and unable to continue to service its customer base of more than 4,000 Internet-based clients.

IBill had been in negotiations with Merrick Bank since mid-August to replace First Data as its processor.

IBill is asking for the court's intervention to maintain status quo and "avoid the catastrophic consequences of First Data's threatened action."

"Any termination by defendants would result in immediate, irreparable harm to plaintiff and its customer bases," the complaint said. "Cancellation of its credit card support arrangements would effectively put plaintiff's customers out of business, depriving them of any ability to function. Absent a temporary restraining order, plaintiff and many of its customers may be forced to close their doors."

Deerfield Beach, Fla.-based iBill, which is short for Internet Billing Company Ltd., is one of the leading third-party credit card processors for the online adult industry. The company is publicly traded on the Nasdaq exchange.

Nearly 78 percent of iBill’s revenues are from adult entertainment content. In 2003, iBill averaged 1.2 million transactions per month and completed approximately $330 million in gross transactions.

In July, Care Concepts I, Inc. agreed to acquire Media Billing LLC and Internet Billing Co., collectively known as iBill, from Penthouse International for $55 million in an all-stock deal.

Representatives for iBill and First Data could not be reached for comment.

[Cleo]

I guess they can sell prepaid porn cards right next to the prepaid phone cards now.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news/index_mail.shtml?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-21-2004/0002255384&EDATE

[Ramster]

That can't be good. :(

[Tommy]

Hmmm.............. I need to switch

I should have switched when they put up that mastercard bullshit last year

[RawAlex]

It is going to be interesting... I can see where a 60 day gap would be very damaging indeed.

Not sure what is going to happen here.

Who is left?

Alex

[Surfn]

Tommy

Is NYW still in operation?

[Cleo]

CCBill and Epoch are about the only two that come to mind. I know we have been in the process of adding Epoch to Angel's site just in case CCBill has problems. Nothing seems to move very fast with Epoch.

[Tommy]

Surfn..... NO!

[JenC]

I use CCBill with Epoch as a secondary. No problems here. |bananna|

[Surfn]

Originally posted by Tommy
Surfn..... NO! Thanks...that's what I thought.

[Cleo]

Originally posted by JenC
I use CCBill with Epoch as a secondary. No problems here. |bananna|
That is exactly what Angel and I want to do.

We have already done all the paperwork and even duplicated the tour so that Epoch could see their tour and are just waiting to hear back from them again.

How hard was it to setup Epoch?

[LB]

Originally posted by Cleo
Nothing seems to move very fast with Epoch.

You noticed aswell ;)

Great processing and decent scrubbing, but maybe they should move a few of those great epassporte support guys over into the Epoch support section :)

[DangerDave]

Not good;(


but interesting...

Nearly 78 percent of iBill’s revenues are from adult entertainment content. In 2003, iBill averaged 1.2 million transactions per month and completed approximately $330 million in gross transactions

Most "authorities" have always said that Adult biz only accounts for a small percentage of the billing companies business.... 78% aint small....

DD

[JenC]

Originally posted by Cleo
That is exactly what Angel and I want to do.

We have already done all the paperwork and even duplicated the tour so that Epoch could see their tour and are just waiting to hear back from them again.

How hard was it to setup Epoch?

The hard part was getting THEM to respond to me. :D

But seriously it was a breeze after they give you the codes.

[Certifiedbitch]

they had issues before and now they've finally closed down.

[DMc]

Originally posted by Cleo
CCBill and Epoch are about the only two that come to mind.

Don't forget about us here on the other side of the ocean.

|waves|

[sybianguru]

People PLease.....

iBill is not going anywhere. It is obvious that First Data tried to pull the plug on their agreement. iBill had to file the docs that you see posted in this thread. The courts have to be shown that First Data's actions could have serious consequences.
It is crazy how quickly people are to bury someone!
I'd bet my right nut that iBill emerges from this issue, just like they do every time.
'They take a lickin' and Keep on Tickin'
My money is on iBill.

[emmanuelle]

Ibill will survive, although only by the skin of their teeth, and it will cost them a bundle to ensure client confidence.

They've received the injunction that they sought, and have a replacement bank now which will be in place Oct 15. The only real issue now is whether or not the injunction can force the former bank to remain in place throughout the transition.

It's unfortunate to watch anyone in this industry struggle. Nothing good will come to any of us through their demise, and they need our support more than ever....

[Wazza]

Is this not the first time I've heard the name First Data in connection with a 3rd party biller going tits up?

[sadman]

I am sure that IBill will stay on, but how many clients they will stay with them. And this is far to be the first problem they encounter in the last three years. :(

[DMc]

Originally posted by emmanuelle
Ibill will survive...They've received the injunction that they sought....
http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Web_Exclusive_News&Action=View_Article&Content_ID=192882

[Greenguy]

I'm not one to scream "THE SKY IS FALLING!" but I did talk to one person last night that was helping their friend set up CCBill on their site, as they are removing iBill because of this.

I also got this from one of my sponsors:

To: blamo@concentric.net
Subject: Adult Cashier: CCBILL as primary billing
From: support@adultcashier.com

Hello, Webmaster

We recommend to our masters to put CCBILL as primary billing , until then will not be received explanations from iBill concerning the current problems.
You are able to do it here http://www.adultcashier.com/wm/wm.php?cmd=personal

If you were not registered yet in CCBiLL you can be registered here http://www.adultcashier.com/wm/wm.php?cmd=ccbillpayinfo

Thank you
Support

[Ramster]

The only ibill sponsor I use just switched over to ccbill too, I got the email. Thankfully I used an FPA for ALL the galleries I made promoting them and don't have to change anything other than that which I already did.

Too bad as I checked my ibill stats and that measly $200 was starting to grow. This month I was making a new sale more than every second day. Still not any real big money though thankfully. :)

[emmanuelle]

Originally posted by emmanuelle
Ibill will survive, although only by the skin of their teeth, and it will cost them a bundle to ensure client confidence.

They've received the injunction that they sought, and have a replacement bank now which will be in place Oct 15. The only real issue now is whether or not the injunction can force the former bank to remain in place throughout the transition.

It's unfortunate to watch anyone in this industry struggle. Nothing good will come to any of us through their demise, and they need our support more than ever....



My bad- Although they are still promising the world to their bigger clients, and I based my post on the information sent from internal higher-ups.....

[Ramster]

This ibill thing is getting worse. Looking at my checks received over the last month I have a few other (small check) sponsors using them too. I never really thought about it because I login to their admin to see stats. :(

I guess it's surprising plus all the others using them under MPA2 or NATS.

[stuveltje]

To: blamo@concentric.net
Subject: Adult Cashier: CCBILL as primary billing
From: support@adultcashier.com

Hello, Webmaster

We recommend to our masters to put CCBILL as primary billing , until then will not be received explanations from iBill concerning the current problems.
You are able to do it here http://www.adultcashier.com/wm/wm.php?cmd=personal

If you were not registered yet in CCBiLL you can be registered here http://www.adultcashier.com/wm/wm.php?cmd=ccbillpayinfo

Thank you

got the same email this morning and changed right away

[Altheon]

It's true if Ibill is to survive this incident they will need their old clients to stay otherwise they will face serious solvency issues as people migrate to the other processors.

The irony to that is that we are not being compensated for the increased risk. As a matter of fact our payments will be delayed thus effectively lengthening our accounts receivables i.e. reducing our effective ROI and in turn giving them a free loan.

I personally hope they pull through since I doubt any of us will get a cent of the money they owe if they go chapter 11.

[MrsHackula]

Here is what was recently posted on a certain other board, by Mark from Ibill:

"To squelch any rumors, distortions or innuendos that have been erroneously posted on these boards, we are making the following information available. iBill is pleased to announce that the company has entered into a new processing agreement with a domestic association-registered party. The new relationship involves processing transactions through a domestic acquirer and settlement bank.

More details to follow next week. We are very excited about some new opportunities that have risen from some tough challenges we have gone through. It has definitely been a September to remember. On that note, we have officially gone under Hurricane warning in our area so our office will be operating at minimal staff for the next few days. Rest assured we have a well tested business continuity plan at this point. Updates will be posted on CMI.

As far as payouts that have been affected by First Data, we expect to get back on track next week. We understand this is the most important priority for our clients.

Mark"

[DangerDave]

FYI - Allegedly IBill are not taking Visa transactions at the moment,...

In order to ensure proper compliance for our US sponsored merchants we will not be accepting Visa transactions until each U.S. sponsored merchant has completed their new iBill merchant agreement with our new domestic bank.

:(

DD

[Tommy]

this is my own fault

I should have tossed them months ago

[Bunnyhop]

Originally posted by DangerDave
Not good;(


but interesting...

Nearly 78 percent of iBill’s revenues are from adult entertainment content. In 2003, iBill averaged 1.2 million transactions per month and completed approximately $330 million in gross transactions

Most "authorities" have always said that Adult biz only accounts for a small percentage of the billing companies business.... 78% aint small....

DD

I was thinking the exact same thing

[DMc]

Verotel - Putting trust in global payments since 1998. |shake|

[vicki]

Epoch and CCBill aren't the only other alternatives, heck if you have your own merc account we'll process you no problem ... if not we might be able to fix that too verrrrrry soon ;)

[WildChyld]

Just posted on the ibill site for their new requirements for having visa or mastercard
******
Costs:
$1500 VISA high-risk merchant account fee - this fee is NOT required up front and your application will be reviewed for approval without payment of the fee. However, if approved, the fee will be required for processing to begin.
iBill fees will be fixed and will be based on the same rate you are currently paying.
Initial six-month reserve, reviewed quarterly for potential adjustment upward or downward (no more rolling reserve).

*****

Um what the fuck! I just paid these jerkoffs $350 to keep my account rolling for another year despite my best thoughts and now they're throwing this at us.
I tried calling and was given the brushoff.

Isn't it lovely how after 7 years with a company they act as if you owe them. Their statement doesn't give any indication about lower per transaction fees or any benefit. Its just pay us $1500, give us tons of very specific information about your business location, tax returns,etc and we'll consider keeping your business open for another year.

Working for the ACLU makes me extremeley weary of supplying them with some of the information listed in that form, even if I were willing to fork over $1500, which I'm not.

Since they're not providing the service that I paid $350 for the right to have Visa for this year, shouldn't I be entitled to that money back?

Anyone have any ideas on what I should do to respond to this?

-WildChyld

[Surfn]

WildChyld

It sounds like they changed the terms of your contract so you should be entitled to a refund.

[Tommy]

the contract looks like we will be appying for a merchant account

if we are getting our own merchant account why do we have to pay ibill 15%

this looks to me like a huge rip off

I am not sure weather to call epoch or ccbill monday

what do you guys think ?

[Jim]

Both Tommy
And get a cascading system.

[Tommy]

toms thumbs is a small site

5k a month, i dont think its worth having two processors

[vicki]

Yes they are having you apply for an independant merchant account, from what I understand they are no longer a IPSP (you can double check on that but I think thats the case).

The fees for applying for a high risk merc acct vary from bank to bank especially US based vs. Offshore.

Merchant accounts are not for everyone but they can be very beneficial to some. Here are a few things to consider when deciding if you should apply: (just remember numbers vary per bank):

*rates are APPROX 4.95% (US)+ and are determined on a case by case situation - offshore approx 6.9%+
*they want a nice transaction volume monthly (anywhere from 25k up) , the more volume the better you look to them.
*they'll want a few months of statements to back volume and chargeback numbers.
*of course they want to see low charge back ratios.

Any good processor will evaluate the information given on the forms before sending your application through to the merchant bank, this can save you any application fees that might apply (depending on the banks they use) if they think you wouldn't make the cut.

The good part is, if you qualify for your own merchant account you have much more control over charge back disputes etc, not to mention higher profit margins ... hmmm well I guess that last part would depend on the processor you work with, I'm not sure IBill plans to reduce their rates.

I hope that helps clear things up

WildChyld - yes I think they should refund if you JUST paid that fee and if you plan to pull your business from them.

[Tommy]

since you guys are looking to get in to the adult buisness very soon do you think gord would wanna set me up this week ?

[Jim]

Originally posted by Tommy
toms thumbs is a small site

5k a month, i dont think its worth having two processors

Move away from Ibill and you will see an increase. Cascading billing will not only bring in more signups but will protect you for when the next cc processor fails. You will make the extra expense back in a month or two.

[Jim]

But...if you just go with one, go with Epoch :)

[Greenguy]

Originally posted by Tommy
if we are getting our own merchant account why do we have to pay ibill 15% ? Go to your bank & tell them you want to start processing adult transactions...then tell me when they stop laughing at you :D

(sorry, but it's my role to be the smart ass)

[vicki]

Tommy

I'm sure he'd be more than happy to work with you, I'll let him know for you.

GG,
Smart asses are my favorites .. lordy knows we don't need anymore dumbasses huh? lol

Jim,
I agree ;)

[MrsHackula]

We are very interested in a cascading program. Are there any more affordable alternatives to NATS? Preferrably one with affiliate capabilities?

[Jim]

They aren't really cascading in literal terms. Back in the day, we had a true cascading system and it was really nice. We had 3 processors. We captured the prospective member's information and tried one cc processor. If they turned that person down, we tried the next. If that processor turned them down we went on to the next. If all 3 processors turned them down, we then offered alternatives.

You can't do that anymore. So, all today's cascading billing really does is rotate between processors. It is really easy to rotate a join page on your site between 2 processors. And, you don't need fancy software to do it.

[Cleo]

Jim you do need fancy software if you are running an affiliate program or you are going to get a lot of very pissed up webmasters if they are sending their traffic for an iBill join and you have a CCBill join page up.

Angel and I are also looking for affordable affiliate software so that she can get away from CCBill links codes.

[Special "Ed"]

Originally posted by Cleo
CCBill and Epoch are about the only two that come to mind. I know we have been in the process of adding Epoch to Angel's site just in case CCBill has problems. Nothing seems to move very fast with Epoch.

You got that right Cleo...I just set up cascade billing with CCbill and Epoch and nothing moved fast at all with Epoch. Even though we've been processing adult paysite memberships for over 3 years they seem to take forever to get someone set up...

[Jim]

You know Cleo...I overlooked the whole affiliate thing in the post :) Yes, you do need software.

[WildChyld]

I just noticed that the site also says this

***
iBill fees will be fixed and will be based on the same rate you are currently paying
***

Are they daft? Pay merchant account fees + 3rd party processor level fees. Who would actually agree to something like that?


Part of me is considering switching to a free site.
I'm headed into a PhD program this Fall so without a webmaster working with me I was concerned about finding the time to keep it up anyway. Such a shame that shady business practices have eliminated the majority of "homegrown" businesses.

[Jan Barnes]

Any news on Ibill? I had a bunch of recurring members via Fetish Cash, but my understanding is that payments have not been made since September 22. Does anyone have any updates?

[Ramster]

I see rebills through a few sponsors that I had too yet I haven't seen any checks. What pisses me off is they are rebilling members and showing they owe me money yet they are not paying...yet.

That's fucked up. I'd prefer they were out of biz rather than show me money and keep rebilling it when I more than likely will never see a dime of it. |pissed|

[selena]

Let me see if I can find the email I got from them after I wrote to ask if payment would ever be made.

Okay, here we go. This is c/p'd from an email dated 11/08/04

*****
Hello Selena,


Thank you for your email to iBill today.


In regards to your request:


*****
Payment status
*****

We will resume normal payout on Dec 1st as well as the 1st monies of past due payout. So on Dec 1st you will get a payment for sales processed from 11/1-11/15-04 as well as a portion of the past due payout owed to you.


Past Due Payouts:
iBill has always stated that we recognize all past due payments to our clients and our committed to meeting these obligations.
Currently First Data holds approximately $15M
We are not moving forward with any additional litigation with First Data, but are working to develop a release schedule of these funds We are also working on obtaining additional capital into iBill. While this is in process, we do not expect to see outside funds into iBill until sometime after the first of the year.
Initially-based on potential release of monies from First Data and
anticipated outside funding, we had hoped to have all past due amounts addressed by October 31.
Due to a delay in both avenues, we will be moving forward under the following program:
Starting in December, each client will be paid out over a 12 month period for past due amounts from the period of September 15 to October 31. This will include reserves. Past due amounts will be paid with 6% interest Promissory notes will be signed by Officers and Board Members of the company

Our goal is to payout much quicker than over a 12 month period
Clients will also have the ability to convert past due amounts into equity of IBD stock at a discount By early next week, an online form will be available in the iBill Merchant Info area to request the promissory note or IBD equity option CMI reporting will include statements of past due amounts for all clients to view


We appreciate your continued patience as we work through this transition. We are very confident in our ability to move forward and are excited about the opportunities ahead of us with gkard program. For those that have additional questions regarding the conference call, please email movingforward@ibill.com. Please include your master account number and account type (iBill EU, gkard, iBill Direct ect) in the email. Your questions will be used to develop a FAQ to be posted on CMI


If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know.

*****

I don't know about you, but I am disinclined to accept the stock option in lieu of cash.
|jester|

[Jan Barnes]

Selena,

That is excellent news. If I am not mistaken, December 1 is today. Yooohoo!

Well, I will check my Ibill account in a few days to see if a payment has been sent.

[Ang El]

i've got their payment today |afro|

[Special "Ed"]

Originally posted by Ramster
I see rebills through a few sponsors that I had too yet I haven't seen any checks. What pisses me off is they are rebilling members and showing they owe me money yet they are not paying...yet.

That's fucked up. I'd prefer they were out of biz rather than show me money and keep rebilling it when I more than likely will never see a dime of it. |pissed|


That sucks Ramster! Damn! |raygun|

[Robato]

Originally posted by Jim
They aren't really cascading in literal terms. Back in the day, we had a true cascading system and it was really nice. We had 3 processors. We captured the prospective member's information and tried one cc processor. If they turned that person down, we tried the next. If that processor turned them down we went on to the next. If all 3 processors turned them down, we then offered alternatives.

You can't do that anymore. So, all today's cascading billing really does is rotate between processors. It is really easy to rotate a join page on your site between 2 processors. And, you don't need fancy software to do it.

could any of you point me out to some of these fancy software? I want to use more than one processor....as well as have an affiliate program rather than just having that stupid ccbill input box for affiliates

[MrsHackula]

Just thought I would say that Ibill did actually send us an ACH payment today for the period of Nov 1st - 15th.

They also have a total of what is owed us from September & October in our merchant info area, along with a choice as to whether we want it paid back a little at a time with 6% interest, or as equity at a 50% discount, or a combination of both. We passed on the equity. ;)

[BumpUglyz]

Its Dec 8th and still no payment from Ibill and it also says Sept 22 under statement in my admin area |angry|

[Ramster]

Just to clarify...

Sponsors who use(d) ibill as their processor are getting paid right?

Affiliates (like me) who promoted these programs still are not right?

Selena, you are an affiliate I assume and are waiting for affiliate payouts?

[Greenguy]

Ramster - I think they said they were gonna start paying this week - and if I remember correctly, I get their checks on Wed or Thur, so I'll post by tomorrow night either way :)

[Carly]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Ramster - I think they said they were gonna start paying this week - and if I remember correctly, I get their checks on Wed or Thur, so I'll post by tomorrow night either way :)

Mine didn't come today. I won't hold my breath on ever seeing a check from them again, so if it happens I will buy myself something nice.;)

[Greenguy]

I didn't get anything from iBill - but I didn't get any CCBill checks either & they usually arrive on the same day (or did back on the day - LOL)

Mail will be late for the next 3 weeks any - tis the season |santa|

[Greenguy]

Rut Roh - http://xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=6489

[Robato]

“The American Stock Exchange objected to the closing of the iBill transaction and cited, among other factors, concerns that iBill may be inadvertently engaging in transactions with web merchants that offer pornographic materials on the Internet in violation of federal and state laws,”

HMMmmmmmmm........

inadvertently engaging in transactions with web merchants that offer pornographic materials.





by the way, just curious....does ibill do any transactions that ARENT smut?

[WildChyld]

Not that this should be surprising but the Ibill situation is even worse now.

I recently found out that their transactions are also screwed up. They've been charging people but not adding them to the database so essentially I have a weeks worth of pissed off members.
When I called, despite it being during business hours, I got the "we're closed message". Then when I finally got some woman named Viola, she claimed that I was lying and it didn't happen and told me that if I was going to accuse them of not answer the phone that she was going to hang up on me.

So no payouts for past dates, no pay out for this week, no more visa unless you use their fucked up new system and no refund on the $350 fee I had to pay to them.

If anyone decides to sue Ibill please send me an email.
That money was paying for my college tuition. ARGH!

[Cleo]

Originally posted by Robato
does ibill do any transactions that ARENT smut?
I know that they have a hard goods store front with a shopping cart that anyone with no knowledge of html can setup using a browser. I've had mainstream clients that were using it, don't know if they are still using iBill or not.

[cd34]

IBill's entry into the business was due to a contract that they held with 3M's consumer division. 3M decided it was cheaper to pay 10% to a third party processor than it was for them to maintain their own systems.

That is what Intercept wanted, then spooled off the adult side, which was then spooled off again.

IBill will survive -- the current investors spent far too much to just dump it (I don't think they did a smart thing because they used far too much personal money for an emotional purchase)

Its going to be a bumpy road, that's for sure, but they will pull through. I am thinking they will turn into a very large transaction processor rather than maintaining IPSP status. Their stance on Visa sort of reinforces that. I have a few clients that IBill keeps claiming they will support IPSP, but, its been a while and I see no indication that they ever will.

There are benefits to the non-IPSP route, but, if you're going to go that way, talk with Mitch or Karen @ Netbilling.

[Black Cat]

Originally posted by Cleo
I guess they can sell prepaid porn cards right next to the prepaid phone cards now.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news/index_mail.shtml?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-21-2004/0002255384&EDATE

you're right!! that' s what i observe

[Jan Barnes]

According to my ibill main menu screen, "Another update regarding the RevShare payout will be posted by Tuesday December 21, 2004".

However, they are saying the payment is still on track, so that gives us another date to look forward to. December 21, the clock is ticking.

[WildChyld]

What I dont understand is why an American company is able to get away with this. They've broken their contracts with thousands of people, why isn't anyone suing them yet?

I can understand with the foreign companies, they have an easier time running off with money but Ibill is in Florida for jeezums sake.

[RawAlex]

It's because at this point, sueing them might push them directly into bankrupcy, and then you can be lucky to get 10 cents on the dollar in the end.

Push someone standing on the edge of a cliff only assures that they will hit the bottom.

Alex

[cd34]

Some strange history:

IBill was located in Ft. Lauderdale for a while and I believe shared part of a data center with FirstData (which is the company that has pretty much caused most of the turmoil in the transition).

Way back with web900, there was only one company that would do adult pay-per-call that was large enough and reliable enough to process and make payments to ibill. That company also happened to sell bandwidth and had enough power to say to iBill, use our bandwidth, or you get no 900# processing. I believe it was in 2002 after a total meltdown of one backbone, and the subsequent meltdown of that company's backbone, iBill was able to put pressure on and get connectivity from another company. They have also since moved their data center to West Palm Beach and still buy the majority of their bandwidth from their web900 supplier.

Now, you have the dispute with FirstData, the shuffle to get a new merchant account, the lack of ability to run as an IPSP (this has greater consequences), and the loss of a great many IPSP clients that won't pay to get their own account and the rapid erosion of their client base through non-communication. I have helped many, many clients move from iBill in the last 60 days.

So, lets think about what has happened. They cannot process Visa, the companies that are generating sales are leaving, which gives you the tiny companies that haven't left yet which are not generating enough sales to dilute any chargebacks that are coming in. This turns the scrubbing up, hence, fewer sales get through, the ratio continues to climb. There are only a few ways to reduce a chargeback ratio that I know of, and taking fewer transactions isn't one of them.

So, enter gkard -- a prepaid card that allows people to pay iBill and then they can use that money elsewhere. Stored value cards have been around forever. ePassporte is very similar, just targeted to a different market. Now, years ago with stored value telephone cards, the Chinese government/telco decided to make really pretty cards. People liked these cards and decided to keep them. A little clause in the government required any money on a stored value card to be held in escrow until the time was used before the money could get released to the phone company. What this did was protect the purchaser of that card from the telco going bankrupt and not honoring the card. gKard is non-chargebackable (supposedly), but then the online casinos claim the same thing. Stored value cards hold huge benefits for companies that run them. A stored value card is a 'float' account -- tons of cash sits there that will get paid out, but, at a unknown time. All the while, your money sits there (usually with no interest) and the company that has it must only meet any daily obligations. Consider if 50000 people all leave $30 on their card while searching for a paysite to join. That is $1.5 million that sits in their account until they have to do a payout. Now you see why epassporte is lax about adding a way to withdraw money to a bank account.

If I had to guess, there's a 5 letter word that comes to mind that describes iBill's behavior. The question is, can they break the cycle.

Yes, they are a US company, but, as a US based company, they hold the same values that almost any company has -- and that is self-preservation and distribution of profits. You can rest assured, as every other large company: Enron, Worldcom, NYSE, that the board members and major stockholders are being paid in a timely manner.

Are their actions enough to have a lawsuit filed? Sure. Is it worth your money to do so? You're sort of at the mercy of the information (or lack thereof) that iBill will supply the courts. They will blame the payout delay on anything except their actions, and they'll draw things out until it is either more expensive to have sued, or, hey, sorry, we have no money left. Their lawyers will be better than your lawyers -- that is almost a fact. You can't sue over your lost Visa income since the processing was shut down. In most cases, that comprises ~65% of the signup/rebill revenue. So, you sue to recover the possible mastercard revenue that you haven't gotten + the $350 you paid. Your attorney will probably charge you $350 to file that motion.

What did DMR do before they shut down? promised payouts that kept moving further and further back. ABM? 6 months of taking transactions without paying. Epoch? I remember a time when they dumped the small guys and set up a $50k deposit/no reserve account. Not sure what they considered that $50k if it wasn't a reserve. Digiblaze? He took his money and ran (and his top guy, also ex-dmr is now an ibill guy). Websitebilling? moved to a bearer-share island and shut down without warning. Globill? moved to the same bearer-share island and shut down.

However. IBill still has a considerable Transaction Processing business for people that have merchant accounts. They have a somewhat substantial non-adult client base and if they were to get rid of the liabilities of the worst offenders in the adult side, could effectively do IPSP again. The smart move is to do almost what Verotel did. You can IPSP until you hit $1k/week. Then, they keep the better quality transactions in their pool and move the bigger guys to TP which again helps. And so far, iBill has only been ~60 days behind, and have started communicating. When a company stops communicating, that's a danger sign.

There are chinks in the armor of every processing company out there. You can read a lot into their actions and inactions.

Personally, I feel iBill will come through it, but, they are losing a considerable benefit from the lack of IPSP processing (and its not just the money)

iBill has made some really dumb mistakes, but, its easy to see that in hindsight. The whole problem really stemmed from an assumption. My recommendation, which certainly isn't in iBill's best interest, is to move to another processor. CCBill/vscrub and Paycom/Epoch/epassporte are two IPSP processors that seem to still be standing fairly strong. Netbilling would be the choice if you wanted to get your own merchant account.

I have also had clients that have used other processors like ikobo and a few others, but, its just a matter of time before those reins get tightened up on the ones that are skirting the issues.

I know this is just a long rant that barely skirts the last question. In short, I don't believe that suing iBill will result in enough gains for it to be worthwhile. Unless you can easily prove willful negligence on iBill's part -- and as an independent observer, I don't believe you can easily find that -- then the case will do nothing but recover costs and income earned.

Move on. If iBill gets caught up, use them as a secondary or backup if you want.

You could file in small claims court in Deerfield Beach, FL if the amount is <$5000 (I think that is the limit)

Not really what you wanted to hear, but, I'll bet that any efforts to recover the money will be met with brick walls every step of the way.

[cd34]

It occurs to me that I am looking at this from one standpoint -- that of a sponsor site.

If you are a revshare webmaster, then I think you are pretty much out of luck. Since they stopped processing Visa, they never collected the money. That money is probably not going to be recoverable. Visa Rebills/New Signups -- those are probably gone.

As far as the rest, if you have a Revshare account and the sponsor you are promoting isn't taking Visa, you're losing out on a fair number of sales. Move on.

Its your income -- you need to do what is in your best interest. If your revenue stream is cut, get another one.

or something like that. :)

[selena]

Originally posted by Ramster

Selena, you are an affiliate I assume and are waiting for affiliate payouts?


That is a correct assumption, Ramster, and I'm still waiting.

I'm just thankful that they only owe me slightly over the minimum payout.

One of those rare times I can be thankful that I had sucky sales.

[Jan Barnes]

Now the ibill main page states "Another update regarding the RevShare payout will be posted by Wednesday - December 22th, 2004". Yesterday, it quoted December 21.

Do you think they have a JAVA script or something installed to update the date on an ongoing basis (always make it one day ahead)?

|santa|

[neticule]

Originally posted by janhoo
Now the ibill main page states "Another update regarding the RevShare payout will be posted by Wednesday - December 22th, 2004". Yesterday, it quoted December 21.

Do you think they have a JAVA script or something installed to update the date on an ongoing basis (always make it one day ahead)?

|santa|

Probably LOL, atleast until holidays are over. |santa|

[Jan Barnes]

"The purpose of this communication is to provide an overview of iBill’s current status.

In light of the financial situation due to issues with our previous processor, difficulties have been encountered recently in regards to payouts and promissory notes. We understand the uncertainty these difficulties present to our clients. This was not our intention and we want to inform our clients that we ARE moving forward. iBill has been processing for over nine years and we continue to be committed to the industry. All decisions made are to ensure the long-term viability of iBill and allow for clients to be paid on all monies owed.

We understand that we have made commitments which have been unfortunately delayed. We are currently working to secure capital which will assist in bringing payouts back on schedule. In addition, progress is being made in negotiations with our previous processor for the release of funds. These funds will be directly paid out to our clients.

Please bear with us as we work through these issues. Be assured that we will be back on schedule shortly and these issues will be behind us in the near future. Please continue to check CMI for further updates as they become available".

Latest news as posted by Ibill. In addition, the September 22 check they sent me bounced. Since I cashed it in Europe, I only found out about it a few days ago. Merry Christmas!|angry|

[Greenguy]

I got a check from iBill today |couch|

[Jan Barnes]

Greenguy,

It is great to see the people at iBill are back in business. It appears that checks were sent out in the beginning of January to everyone.

Cheers!

[Greenguy]

The date on mine was Jan 14th or something like that. I have no idea what period it covered & I only got one (I'm signed up to a lot of iBill programs & most owe me money)

I guess we're in the old "Wait & See" mode now.

[Ramster]

You got an ibill check? Wow. I hope I get some. They last time they paid affilates was for Sept 15.

[Jan Barnes]

Ramster,

New Revshare checks have been sent out, that is the good news! If you log into ibill, you will see the following messages:

RevShare Payout Check Dates 12/08/04 & 12/22/04
Please be advised that the RevShare payout for check dates 12/08/04 and 12/22/04 was processed and paid on January 5, 2005.

The statement for these check dates is currently visible in CMI. RevSharers can go to the Accounting section of CMI and select check date 12/22/04 to view the details of this combined payout.

Payout Update
iBill continues to make substantial progress and we are close to putting our September 16, 2004 problems behind us.

To this end, iBill has obtained an investment from a New York fund management company. We received the first $2 million installment this week.

It is our sincerest intent to ensure all of our webmasters that are processing with iBill are kept current on funds owed going forward.

For Wednesday, January 5, 2005, the following payouts will be made:
12/08/04 RevShare Payout

12/22/04 RevShare Payout

For Tuesday, January 11, 2005, the following payouts will be made:
12/15/04 US Payout

12/19/04 EU Payout

[Greenguy]

So no word on the money from October & November? Nice.

[Bell]

So no word on the money from October & November? Nice.


ditto that...

I had early on in 2004 earmarked my Oct. and Nov. checks to pay for the construction of a 2 car garage... doesn't look like I'll be breaking ground on that this Spring without the Oct. and Nov. checks...

grrrrr...

~Bell

[GeorgeTH]

They now have the attention of main stream newspapers [19th of January]:

http://www.newyorkdailytimes.com/home.htm?m=ibill and get compared with Emron...

[Ramster]

Great, just we need Gearge.

I haven't received any of my checks yet. Being in Canada I expect it later as the admin does show a check so there is hope. (3 checks actually from various accounts)

[vicki]

webby posted this link on another board and I thought it contained enough relevant information to post here also

talk about to-the-point reporting .. I think that reporter must be from texas! lol

anyway, heres the link:http://www.oregonherald.com/home.htm?m=ibill

[chilihost]

that article is wild, I can't believe any professional reporter would write something like that...hopefully it will result in a bit of publicity and maybe, just maybe, ibill will take it as incentive to start paying out their webmasters!!!

cheers,
Luke

[vicki]

yes, quite eloquent wasn't he lol

talk about shooting from the hip!! ;)

[Ms Naughty]

I wouldn't say it qualified as objective reporting. And while the reporter goes on about how they did a lot of "investigating" it's very light on for serious facts.

Nonetheless, I finally did some checking on my iBill affiliate accounts. Up until now I figured it was like Globill and I just had to write off the small amount of money owed when it first went pear shaped.

Still, the rebills have kept coming in, but I haven't had a check from them since 22nd Sept 2004 and I now have a few hundred dollars that are owed me.

GG said he got a check from them the other day. Hopefully the usual airmail delay will explain things and I might see some of my money...

[cd34]

To my knowlege, there have been two payments since Oct 1. One in mid december, and one around the 5th of January. The claim is that the 5th of January payment was a 'current' payment and that they were going to work on staying current.

There was nothing said about old monies that were owed other than there were monies that were owed.

While significantly different than the pump n dump of websitebilling or globill, it does have strange parallels with some of the backchannel stuff.

The downside is that the longer it takes, the more their customer base erodes, the fewer transactions they can blend to keep a reasonable chargeback ratio. This means scrub gets turned up, and its harder and harder to push sales through until one day, not enough transactions can be pumped through, the bank closes the merchant account, the funds are held for 6 months and then released -- usually to an offshore bearer share entity.

Enron kept the balls in the air for quite some time too. :)

[Opti]

Funny how that "reporters" name doesnt seem to exist anywhere else on the web

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lawrence+Kiminski%22

Weird article... leaves himself open for charges of only giving half the facts the way he goes on about all the poor mom and pop businesses being hurt... I doubt that angle will bring a lot of support if the public read it as mom and pop porn operations.

[Jan Barnes]

They now have the attention of main stream newspapers [19th of January]:

http://www.newyorkdailytimes.com/home.htm?m=ibill and get compared with Emron...

This article states the following:

"Initially respected, iBill has become the most reviled, despised, mistrusted, and suspicious companies on the Internet, with business practices reminiscent of Nazi Germany".

Comparing iBill with nazis? Interesting comparison. Exaggeration is fun sometimes, but that is just silly.

[selena]

I've not been paid by them since Sept., and I can no longer login to cmi, either. I use roboform, so I'm not hosing up the login attempt.

It says I am an invalid user.

[Greenguy]

CCBill checks came yesterday.

iBill checks, which usually come on the same day, did not come yesterday or today :(

[Ramster]

I get my ccbills check every week. I STILL have not received any checks for ibill.

[RyuLion]

Well, I'm glad I didn't have any joins throught their processing..

[Ramster]

What I don't get is WHERE does ALL the money they charge and rebill every month go? Seriously? WTF does it go??????? Old money I understand. But new customers billed this month and last are charged. Where is it???? |angry|

[cd34]

I have two theories:

1) they set up a new merchant account with the same acquiring bank that CCBill uses. In addition to the 10% rolling reserve and the fact it was public in the processing community that their account was terminated with FirstData, there may have been a hold placed on the initial money. I've heard, but not been able to confirm that two board members were silently replaced about the time they were applying for the new merchant account.

b) there are a number of newer 7 series Bimmers and Merc SLs in the parking lot.

[Jim]

Lots of questions Sparky. It makes people afraid to trust any processor. Wouldn't it be nice to get a co-op type thing going with a shared merchant account used by trusted programs?
hmmmmmm...

[meloncash]

It's been almost a month since the last one. Currently the CMI says 'we are not in a position to ... blah, blah, blah.

I would like to see some of what they owe me before they file for bankruptcy. Has anyone tried using a collection agency? |pink

[Jan Barnes]

"The 01/01/05 US payout, 01/05/05 EU payout and past due EU reserves will be funded in January. An update on payout dates will be provided on January 11, 2005".

January 11? Unless iBill is located in a very distant time zone, January 11 is way gone. What a great scam. They can continue rebilling for ages, and apparently they have no intention of paying anyone. |shocking|

[meloncash]

"The 01/01/05 US payout, 01/05/05 EU payout and past due EU reserves will be funded in January. An update on payout dates will be provided on January 11, 2005".

January 11? Unless iBill is located in a very distant time zone, January 11 is way gone. What a great scam. They can continue rebilling for ages, and apparently they have no intention of paying anyone. |shocking|

They can ONLY rebill accounts that have not been canceled. I calceled ALL my rebills with them and have started over with CCBill. If I had the $$, I'd hire a lawyer and sue the pricks.

What about hiring a collection agency? Any thoughts on that?

[DMc]

What about hiring a collection agency? Any thoughts on that?
According to a survey by the Commercial Collection Agency Section of the Commercial Law League of America, the probability of collecting an overdue account drops to 73 percent after just three months, to 57 percent after six months and to only 29 percent after one year.

Although collection agencies charge between 15 to 50 percent of what they recover, you still end up with more than you probably could have collected on your own.

:D

[wesley]

this is in the new york times, not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, sounds more like the writer is personally involved rather then just reporting though.
http://www.newyorkdailytimes.com/home.htm?m=ibill

[DMc]

this is in the new york times, not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, sounds more like the writer is personally involved rather then just reporting though.
http://www.newyorkdailytimes.com/home.htm?m=ibill
So much for subjective reporting. He really took the piss on that article.

[meloncash]

So much for subjective reporting. He really took the piss on that article.

... and they really deserved to get pissed on. They are fucking criminals.

I can't believe they are still pushing their gkard SHIT.

They still owe me 30k, which is probably not worth a lawyer's time, or mine, since the lawyer would probably pocket 90% of it, assuming he/she is successful.

I am going to try using a collection agency. I probably won't get any money, but at least I will know that someone is hounding them every day.

Assuming I DO get my money, I then plan to sue them in small claims court for the collection agency fees.

[Jan Barnes]

This article is really interesting. It is a bit of a read, but it is worth it:

Business Wire (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050121005478&newsLang=en)

There is some positive news, though not much:

"Further, and as represented to IBD by Penthouse International, Inc. ("PHSL") (the parent corporation of iBill) in January 2005, iBill and First Data reached preliminary agreement, subject to definitive documentation and general releases, to settle disputes related to deposits held by First Data. The parties have exchanged drafts of a settlement agreement and are negotiating the amount of compensation that iBill will receive"

[Jan Barnes]

Sorry to be kicking a dead horse, but has anyone heard anything about this?:

iBill Announces $41.6 Million in Client Payments in Cash and Term Notes; iBill Settles With First Data Merchant Services (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050415005489&newsLang=en)

[Toby]

Some webmasters are beginning to receive payments, according to an article in today's issue of AVN Online (http://www.avnonline.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Web_Exclusive_News&Action=View_Article&Content_ID=223950)

[Greenguy]

I got an email 2 or 3 weeks ago because I have a processing account with them (even though I don't use it) that said we (meaning those that have processing account thru iBill) would be getting payments shortly.

As far as when they'll actually pay webmasters is unknown to me.

[Ramster]

I'd love to get the money I'm owed. I'm only a lowly affiliate but if an ibill check arrives for what I'm owed there'll be a new bigscreen tv I have my eye on in my basement the next day. ;)

[juggernaut]

When I first started I went with IBill. Mainly they offered to wave the visa sign up fee at the time. It was a total nightmare. Configuring the billing pages was not a smooth as i had hoped. Not to bad mouth them, this whole thing was out of there control. I explained to my rep that I had to leave them and could not be sitting around waiting an hopping the court cases pan out. I felt so bad for the guy, you could tell he was fanning back the flames all day. I did not have much in the line of money that they owed me. Only like 1k. Of which I have to say was a major major pain in the ass to get from them. It trickled into my bank account on a monthly basis @ something like $5.00 a month and all it did was screw up my balence as after 3 months and going with ccbill I totally forgot about them, so i was always asking my self where this $5 bucks came from in the account. But according to the rep he was hurting most of his clients left and he was also looking for a new job. When I went over to ccbill they streamlined my sign up because I was with IBill. They wanted all IBill customers and were doing everything they could to make the transition smooth and fast. If you could show them past billing history with very little charge backs they could have you running in about 2 days. Anyway it would be nice to see that company stay around but from all the paperwork I read. I think the bank they are going up against just has the means of pushing this case back and back to the point where Ibill will either shut down, or just reopen as someone else.

[LindaMight]

Used to use iBill but bailed out with them a year go when I ran into major problems. I use CCBill and they have been wonderful. I hope they never have problems.

[WildChyld]

notice that that article doesnt mention that the bulk isnt going to be paid until two yearly installments starting in May 06

[Jan Barnes]

According to this, affiliates will not be paid directly. It seems like the programs that utilized iBill will get a fun job in making payments to webmasters all over the place.

http://xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=8528

[Toby]

According to this, affiliates will not be paid directly. It seems like the programs that utilized iBill will get a fun job in making payments to webmasters all over the place.
Do sponsor webmasters even have the necessary information they need to do that? My guess would be no.

[Greenguy]

Hopefully iBill will send them our info & hopefully those programs are still around, since most people pulled all their links months ago.

[Ramster]

Hopefully iBill will send them our info & hopefully those programs are still around, since most people pulled all their links months ago.

Agreed.

[spookyx]

I use CCBill with Epoch as a secondary. No problems here. |bananna|


Thats what we do too, we did not have any major problems setting up epoch

[Kinky]

so programs that used Ibill supposedly got sent money and now they are supposed to make the payouts to their webmasters? or am I just drunk and not reading things the right way?

[Greenguy]

You're drunk & that is correct :D

[rtv]

A lot of programs paid for ibill transactions at their expense. Paid in time.