a affiliate who uses my content for evil

[Torn Rose]

Here is another little piss ant who wants to us my content for his redirects and also to help install whatever crap he is trying to install. (beware, you go to his sites you better have a good virus program)

I’ve already terminated his affiliate account, wrote a C&D to him and his host.

The 2 sites I know he has

bosomland.com
BUMPERBOOBS.COM

Registrant:
Chris Jerrett

12 Chestnut Close
Bath, Somerset BA3 3UY
United Kingdom

Registered through: GoDaddy.com (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: BUMPERBOOBS.COM
Created on: 25-Jan-04
Expires on: 25-Jan-05
Last Updated on: 25-Jan-04

Administrative Contact:
Jerrett, Chris kloot@btopenworld.com
12 Chestnut Close
Bath, Somerset BA3 3UY
United Kingdom
07939205198
Technical Contact:
Jerrett, Chris kloot@btopenworld.com
12 Chestnut Close
Bath, Somerset BA3 3UY
United Kingdom
07939205198

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.ADVANCEDHOSTERS.COM
NS2.ADVANCEDHOSTERS.COM

[Surfn]

Too bad some of these assholes can't die of stupidity |lightsabe

[eman]

Fucking twat.

He isn't typical of UK webmasters!

[DangerDave]

This fool is listed at lots of places..:(


Kloot

kloot@btopenworld.com
kloot@tiscali.co.uk

http://www.dildodames.com/
http://www.adult-gallery-post.com/
http://www.nudegrandmother.com/
http://www.teensexfuck.com/
http://www.mature-centerfolds.com/


Torn.:( you have lots of google spammers redirecting to KatVixen too|pissed|

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=kat+vixen

DD

[Torn Rose]

Originally posted by DangerDave
This fool is listed at lots of places..:(


Torn.:( you have lots of google spammers redirecting to KatVixen too|pissed|

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=kat+vixen

DD

um.... English please DD =o)

I've no idea what you mean; I'm not that savvy on this sort of thing. Just tell me who's balls do I need to crush?


|slice

[Ramster]

AdvancedHosters is almost as bad as that other host HQHost. They are second for me for hosting cheaters when I check whois info. HQHost is already banned.

[kloot]

Yesterday I joined Katcash after viewing a thread on AWI in the opportunities forum. I listed about a dozen katcash hosted galleries on four tgps of mine to test the program.

One site I listed these hosted galleries on was http://www.bumperboobs.com this site sent between 50% and 100% to galleries depending on page. It also accepted webmaster submitted galleries and listed them. Indeed it did have an enter pop up. But there are (were) no redirects/spyware etc.

24 hours later I check my ccbill stats - no hits to katcash.

I check a gallery with my ref code and it goes to a page which says my ccbill id is cancelled and then it redirects to the katcash site.

I email Torn

Torn replies basically calling me a cheater. ALL I DID WAS LIST A DOZEN OF HER HOSTED GALLERIES ON A SITE WITH AN ENTER CONSOLE.

I immediately remove the hosted gallery links from my sites as requested within minutes and email her to tell her her links are removed

But too late.

Advanced hosters have deleted http://www.bumperboobs.com/ because Torn tells them I have unlicenced content there!

The other site Torn mentions is clean, always has been.

I object strongly to being called a cheater, a little piss ant, an asshole, a fucking twat, and a fool by people I respect in this Industry.

Dangerdave, you have listed me in the past, I've never cheated. and of those domains you listed three have been expired a while:
http://www.mature-centerfolds.com/
http://www.nudegrandmother.com/
http://www.teensexfuck.com/


Torn makes it sound like I submitted galleries with stolen content and redirected them. I have never done this in my fucking life.
All I did was list her hosted galls on a site with an entrance console. There are some very big tgps that do this. Are you guys calling them out as cheaters, etc. as well?

[kloot]

Thanks Mike for the kind words.

I don't deny that my site had an entrance console at all. But I just went through sextracker top 51 universe of sites and so do 9 of those sites. So I am in good company.

btw The site I have had deleted (damn it was a PR4!) at advanced hosters was on a server owned by someone else, not me. I'm still waiting to hear if the site is gone forever, it had a huge 6 months database of submitted galleries I hope I have not lost. I think advanced hosters are a good host.

[Torn Rose]

LOL.... too bad.|2up

I see in my stats your site http://bumperboobs.com/ and since I have never seen that URL in my stats before I go and look and see what your site looks like, and the first thing that happens is my Norton pops up not once, not twice but THREE times telling me your trying to install crap on my pc.

Strike one.

I see about 4 thumbs of my content, so I click on one and when the new window pops I see one of your URLS for a second before it goes to my site. (no idea where that click also went)

Strike two.

I click on the second thumb and I get a pop for some BBW top list or whatever site that I have nothing to do with and NO WHERE do I see KatVixen.com

Strike three.

You Fucked up, instead of saying "sorry, I did wrong, I fucked up and it won’t happen again, give me another chance" you come back with "everyone does it"

[kloot]

Torn, no offence, but do you understand about traffic trading with trade scripts? Where a percentage of the traffic goes to a trade and a percentage goes to the gallery?

[Greenguy]

kloot - 1st off, who's Mike?

2ndly, just because everyone else does it, doesn't mean it's legit.

Now, here's where your argument fails:

You had Kat's content listed on your website, but not all the clicks that occured when a surfer clicked on her content went to Kat's site, which is how it should be.

This means that you were illegally using Kat's content for your own benefit, which is theft. You signed up to promote Kat's site by using her content - not to promote other sites/toplists.

I assume that you have never produced your own content, therefore have no idea the fucking hassle content producers go thru so that their content is not illegally used, as it was in this case.

If I were you, I'd rethink any website that you currently do this on, as it is illegal & this is just the 1st time you got caught. I assume there will be more.

[Mike]

So Greenie, what you're saying is that all Thumb TGPs should be shut down?

All my Thumb TGPs work that way. That doesn't make me a cheater nor do the sponsors think so (maybe because they know what a Thumb TGP is?). In order for me to grow my sites to 100k, 150k or 200k I need, as everyone else, to have the tools to do that. What you say Greenie is that we can't do it the way we do it with Thumb TGPs. Does that mean you can't write descriptions either from a gallery and at the same time use skimming? I can mention a whole lot of people here who does that.

And you're telling me that not on one single of your sites you use skimming on text links?

I send programs loads of traffic and sign ups and not ONE have ever been stupid enough to tell me it's illegal to run a Thumb TGP. In fact, just last week a huge program contacted me because they want me to grow 12 Thumb TGPs for them to 100k. So they know what it is and how it works.

The fact that Torn doesn't know Thumb TGPs says more about her than about Kloot.

[kloot]

Mike, thanx again, hope your post doesn't go again.

Green guy

First of all let me thank you for replying in a polite and professional manner. I'm not sucking ass. But your example is one which some of your other board members could learn from. I've been called a lot of bad names in this thread.

Who is Mike?
Someone who posted to defend me, but that post has gone from the board. I got the notification of a new post email, read the post, replied to it but now it's not there anymore.

Yes, I'm aware of the content issues on thumbsites. How many non-skim thumb sites do you know of? There are some but not many. So I get made an example of with my little site, and get it deleted. (Actually all the archive pages were text only, 100% to gallery).

[RubberRuss]

Originally posted by Mike

The fact that Torn doesn't know Thumb TGPs says more about her than about Kloot.

"Her"????

Torn isn't a "her"!!!!

Although, he has been known to drink wine coolers in public, so I can understand your confusion.



|bananna|

[Greenguy]

1st off, I'm not a big fan of fucking over surfers with blind links & circle jerks & what I consider to be shit traffic, so I have no fucking clue how skims & trades & CJ's work.

That being said, the fact remains that kloot DID NOT have permission from Kat or Torn to use their content for his own benefit.

Like I said before, just because everyone else is doing it DOES NOT make it right, or in this case, even legal.

[Greenguy]

Oh - almost forgot - I assume there was a post deleted form this thread as well - that should not have been done, seeing as we encourage pissing matches :)

[Mike]

Originally posted by Greenguy
1st off, I'm not a big fan of fucking over surfers with blind links & circle jerks & what I consider to be shit traffic, so I have no fucking clue how skims & trades & CJ's work.

You don't know what trading is and yet you still trade traffic on http://www.link-o-rama.com/greenguy/mlinks.htm ?

Surely you know what trading traffic is. I think I remember we talked about it on ICQ some time ago and you told me you had lots TGPs. There are 25 sites on the box where link-o-rama is hosted. Not one of them is using a trade script of some sort?

[Mike]

Oh and another thing... I was looking for an extra server last night and was actually looking at Advanced Hosters. Thank God I didn't go with those people. My new Thumb TGPs would be down within 2 minutes judging by the way they do business. If there's some osrt of problem the host should at least say "hey you... we got a problem... how about you fix it...".

I got myself an Exon DUAL 2.8. That should be enough to power 3 new 100k Thumb TGPs.


RubberRuss,
I don't know Torn, other than what I heard from this (which is more than enough for me) :)

[Torn Rose]

Yeah your right, I do not know anything about blind links and whatever crap it is that you do. All I know is when I click on a link expecting a apple and I see a banana instead, I get pissed and close the browser and I go look for a site that gives me what it says it will give me.

This is the main problem in porn, people doing anything to make a $. No wonder the US Gov is making our life so hard, who knows what that blind link will be.

I’m a pretty simple guy, I see my content being misused and I took action. Too bad “if everyone else does it” I don’t care. In the 4 years of having an affiliate program, I have terminated exactly 3 accounts total. Not too bad from 300+ affiliates over 4 years.

If this is “right” why was his site removed? I just told his host that he had 24 hours to remove it, after that it is a matter for my Lawyer to deal with. So did the host delete the site on my word alone or did they go and see what he was doing and see the crap for themselves?

I also have never had Norton popup on me for any other “entrance counsel” so that is pretty funny as well, but hey, call it what you want.

Also, if what you say is true about the blind links, why didn’t you use content YOU BOUGHT and not mine or anyone else’s? That’s stealing. Like I said, my content is for promoting my site and my site alone.

Pretty simple.

[Mike]

Torn,

We are hundreds of TGP webmasters and MANY of us got Thumb TGPs.
If you don't want those sites to promote your shit then add it to your terms. End of story.

I could understand your point if a site was using your thumbnails to promote another program but he's not. That only thing he's apparently doing wrong, accoding to you, is the fact that he's using a trade script to grow his site bigger so he can send you more traffic.

One of the sponsors I'm using on my Thumb TGPs is SilverCash. Would you SilverCash ppl like me to remove your SilverCash galleries because I'm using a trade script on the thumbs? Oh and should Madthumbs Mike also remove his links to your program?

[Greenguy]

Don't spin my words - I don't know how these bull shit blind link circle jerk trades work. Of course I know how legit hard link trades work & I have used them for the last 8 years.

And here's a little tip for when you look at things on whois.sc - this:
"Web server hosts 25 websites"
means there are 25 domains on the same IP on my server. There are actually about 200 domains on the server & about 100 on the other server I have with National Net. The ones that share the IP are typo's or similar domain spellings & all of them go to link-o-rama.com's date files. So whatever point you were trying to get across is pretty much moot.

But, the traffic & trades thing is NOT the issue here - the issue is that kloote DID NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO USE THE CONTENT IN THE WAY THAT HE DID. Torn & Kat give webmasters free content in exchange for them using that content to promote THEIR FUCKING SITE AND NOT TO PROMOTE ANY OTHER FUCKING SITE - PERIOD.

There is really nothing you can say to me, Torn, Kat, their lawyer, kloote's host, or anyone else reading this thread that will make someone believe this is not theft.


Originally posted by Mike
I could understand your point if a site was using your thumbnails to promote another program but he's not.
BUT HE WAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rowan]

Load up www.picminer.com/tgp.html

Pick a thumb and click on that same thumb 5 times. Chances are you will see the gallery 3-4 times, but the other times you will be 'jerked' to a trade.

This is skimming and in 2004 this is the normal way of TGP trading. "Skimless" TGPs - where every click on a gallery link really goes to the gallery - are now the exception.

Until this thread I had never heard any sponsors complain about affiliates using skimming to grow traffic. From what I understand, a couple of you are in uproar because a thumb with sponsor content didn't go to the gallery every single click.

I have to ask one thing: if a sponsor (Torn) offers hosted TGP galleries then surely they understand what skimming is? As I said, it's 2004...

[MrMaryLou]

Skimming, CJ or what ever ya want to call it sucks :( Oh sure lets put a thumb up for a lesbian gallery and send them to another tgp oh thats so effective :( Come on all your doing is inflating numbers and pissing off surfers and when you do it with hosted galleries or any ones content its miss use of there owned content plain and simple would you use a sponsors banner to send the surfer to another site? All the cj type tgps are the death of the tgps for sure the final nail in the coffin :(

[Greenguy]

I have one simple question that will end this thread forever - it's a "YES" or "NO" questions - so there is no debating:

Did kloot have permission from Torn/Kat to use their content the way he did?

[uterpie]

Torn,

The reason there are so many thumb TGPs that still trade traffic is that NO ONE thinks or "knows" this is "illegal". Their sponsors are not bitching about it, so HOW COULD THEY KNOW? You are the FIRST I have heard complain about this. Perhaps you are the only one who views it this way? Perhaps its your self confessed unfamiliarity with traffic trading and the benefits it provides you that gives you this stance?

If I use one of your FHGs on a text link for trades, is that illegal too? Can you please let us know what ELSE you view as illegal that you did not put in your terms? Its only fair that we know. Of course that would rob you of the pleasure of flaming people on boards for doing things you think is wrong but everyone else thinks is business as usual, so I understand if you don't want to.

Perhaps you should go through and fire ALL your affilliates that use traffic trade scripts. Perhaps the impact on your business would help you understand traffic trading a little better.

[rowan]

Originally posted by MrMaryLou
Skimming, CJ or what ever ya want to call it sucks :( Oh sure lets put a thumb up for a lesbian gallery and send them to another tgp oh thats so effective :( Come on all your doing is inflating numbers and pissing off surfers and when you do it with hosted galleries or any ones content its miss use of there owned content plain and simple would you use a sponsors banner to send the surfer to another site? All the cj type tgps are the death of the tgps for sure the final nail in the coffin :(

It's called evolution. :)

Yes, skimfree TGPs are cleaner and tend to make more money per surfer... but these days it's far easier to grow a skimming TGP and make up for it with volume.

I'll go out on a limb here and give you some real figures. When my (skimming) TGP was at 100k, I was making approximately $US2000 per month from signups off hosted galleries. I'm sure plenty of you make more than this, but the beauty of this site is that it is nearly fully automated. Both trading and thumb rotation are handled by scripts. There is very little human intervention required, maybe 30 mins work average per day.

This is the future of TGPs. Bang in a thousand hosted gallery URLs and suitable thumbs, configure scripts, then let them do most of the work.

[STEVEN]

Interesting. I have never seen a sponsor kill an affliliate account for using a hosted gallery on a Thumb Preview site before.

Also, that host ... They close down a guys account because of a complaint of one thumbnail image? Which they didn't even bother to verfiy?

This has truly been an interesting thread.

[Ramster]

Unfortuneately every thumb tgp that uses hosted galleries does this. They use content illegally so to speak. But most are clean sites for the most part sending surfers to the gallery a high percentage of the time.

kloot
You're problem was the popup. We all have a hate for those autoinstalls and spyware asses and if Norton went off then that pissed off Torn enough that when he saw your CJ site redirecting her thumbs to other sites it caused the problem you are in now. :(

Mike, how are you? You did a tgp design for me a while back.

MrMaryLou
Skimming TGPs are here to stay. They suck, I own one and I own a non skim TGP too. Sad to say but it is easy to grow one and still make some money with them.

[CraK]

Sounds like Torn only wants non-skimming TGPs to use his hosted galleries.. but UNFORTUNATELY there aren't many that are around that dont skim..

The non-skimming TGP days are long gone.. the only way to build up traffic now is by skimming a percentage to your trades..

What amazes me is that how so many people are out of touch with what's going on with their main traffic sources..

EDIT: if you were to send out emails to all the hosts of the TGPs that use your sponsor hosted galleries + skim to shut down their sites.. you will very soon be left with about 10 affiliates instead of 300..

Maybe you should put that in your FAQs page that you will not allow any TGP or MGP to use your hosted galleries if they skim

But how do you plan to get traffic? If TGPs skim, that's to gain more traffic, that means more traffic to YOUR program and more sales..

Too bad so many people dont know what's profiting or hurting them

[Greenguy]

Jesus H Christ On A Popsicle Stick! I can't believe you guys are still talking about "traffic"

kloot took an image from Kat & Torn & used to to promtoe a site other than Kat & Torn's site - what's part of the illegalness of this do some of you not understand?

[Stouch]

Hmm, with regard to Kloot, yes the popups and auto installs suck balls and whilst I wouldnt trade with his site that is his business choice.

With regard to Torn, I suspect that you created the hosted galleries as everyone else does these days and hoped that it may attract a few affiliates. Unfortunately, the only webmasters who want hosted galleries are TGP owners, and nowadays it seems that the majority are thumb TGPs, 99% of which skim.

But perhaps the worst thing is that nowhere can I see a license which states the restrictions for the pics on the galleries or a set of terms where the restrictions on thumb TGPs skimming is stated. Considering that every other sponsor that offers hosted galleries never reports it as theft to a host, is it a fair assumption that yours shouldnt be any different?

Perhaps assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups, but I would be very concerned by this as someone that offers both clean and skimming sites.

I would be majorly pissed off if my host just dumped my sites without consulting me which I believe is what may have happened.

[Stouch]

Would just like to add that skimming thumb TGP's, whilst they may suck, they can actually send you a lot of clicks to your program.

I would seek to embrace these webmasters as opposed to alienating them.

[Greenguy]

It's a sad fucking world when you have to put up a notice in your webmaster area that the webmaster can not steal your fucking content.

[Greenguy]

Seeing as no one wants to answer this - maybe it because you overlooked it :)

Did kloot have permission from Torn/Kat to use their content the way he did?

[CraK]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Jesus H Christ On A Popsicle Stick! I can't believe you guys are still talking about "traffic"

kloot took an image from Kat & Torn & used to to promtoe a site other than Kat & Torn's site - what's part of the illegalness of this do some of you not understand?

What I understand is that he did not use that image to promote any other program.. what you are referring to as promoting some other site is simply skimming a percentage of clicks to his trades which is very normal for a thumb tgp to do... so what's the clutter here?

[Stouch]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Jesus H Christ On A Popsicle Stick! I can't believe you guys are still talking about "traffic"

kloot took an image from Kat & Torn & used to to promtoe a site other than Kat & Torn's site - what's part of the illegalness of this do some of you not understand?

I just made the above two posts without seeing this |potleaf|

Was it definately to another program or to another TGP?

I would bet it was to someone in his trade script.

If it was to another program then yes that would be naughty.

[Greenguy]

Originally posted by CraK
What I understand is that he did not use that image to promote any other program.. what you are referring to as promoting some other site is simply skimming a percentage of clicks to his trades which is very normal for a thumb tgp to do... so what's the clutter here? I never said he was promoting another program, I said he was promoting another SITE (even if I did have a few typo's in there - LOL)

Webmaster programs put out free content so that you can use it to promote their site - there is no other use for it - if you use it for something else, you run the risk of having shit like this happen to you.

I don't care if it was being used for a traffic trade, a circle jerk, a blind link or to promote the sale of socket sets on the fucking Sears Craftsman website!

kloot did not have permission to use the content the way he did & his host did the right thing when the pulled the plug after finding out from Torn just what was going on.

I am truly amazed at the number of people that think it is ok to steal content, as long as it's for a "traffic trade"

[MrMaryLou]

Using someone Else's content to skim is just plan wrong no matter how you shake it you can sit there all day and say oh I can make a site get a 100k that does make the fact that using someones content right :(

[RawAlex]

Sponsor content needs to be used in the VERY narrow confines of promoting the program. If you run a "skim" TGP, you need to set up certain galleries as 100% show, and use others (ie, content you have paid for) as higher skim to make up for it.

If your program cannot handle that, then I suggest you don't use sponsor content,

The use of sponsor content to promote another site, even if that other site is not a membership site is an invalid use of the content.

This isn't a question of "this sort of TGP is easier to promote / market / gain traffic on that that sort of TGP". Both types are valid business models, apparently. Using sponsor content on an uncontrolled "skim all listings" TGP is obviously in violation of the terms of use of that content (and thumbs generated from it). We are not discussing business models, we are discussing permitted use.

How hard is it to understand?

That there are sponsors out there that tolerate this sort of situation is up to those sponsors.

This guy should not have done what he did. Torn acted agressively and zealously as any copyright holder should to protect the images and to assure that use only as permitted.

HE WROTE THE RULES. YOU DON'T LIKE THE RULES, DON'T USE HIS CONTENT. IF YOU LIKE THE CONTENT, FOLLOW THE RULES.

How hard is it?

Alex

[CraK]

Originally posted by Greenguy
I never said he was promoting another program, I said he was promoting another SITE (even if I did have a few typo's in there - LOL)

Webmaster programs put out free content so that you can use it to promote their site - there is no other use for it - if you use it for something else, you run the risk of having shit like this happen to you.

I don't care if it was being used for a traffic trade, a circle jerk, a blind link or to promote the sale of socket sets on the fucking Sears Craftsman website!

kloot did not have permission to use the content the way he did & his host did the right thing when the pulled the plug after finding out from Torn just what was going on.

I am truly amazed at the number of people that think it is ok to steal content, as long as it's for a "traffic trade"

Okay, let's say it's illegal to do that and kloot was wrong and now the plug was pulled on him by his host.. but it would be a damn shame for Torn to not put something like that on his FAQs page that says that their program can only be used on non-skimming tgps and mgps..

now it's upto him to decide if he wants to take the hit and have about 200 of his affiliates drop him in a second.. because i know i would since there are 5000 other sponsors who actually wont give me shit about this and i wont have to worry at night that my site might be shut down because of some sponsor..

You can't really blame kloot for his actions because he presumed that it was okay to use Torn's content on a skimming tgp because other 5000 quality sponsors dont give him shit about it and get his sites shut down

If anything, i would blame Torn for not having something like that in his FAQs page..

And for you to say that the host did the right thing by pulling the plug on him after they saw that he was SKIMMING.. there are 50 million other decent sized tgps that do this.. so they should all be shut down?

Look at how it's gonna hurt so many sponsors.. and look at how it's gonna hurt so many hosts..

no skimming means no more huge traffic.. that means no more 100s of signups for the sponsors daily.. that means hosts will not burn much bw which will not fill their pockets..

[Linkster]

This is a legal problem that just hasnt come to a head before - yes there are a lot of major tgps out there doing exactly the same thing - and yes it is against the TOS of the programs - no one has made anything of it yet but thats not to say that anyone that owns the content has no footing - just because everyone does it doesnt make it right

I would say that most sponsors are pretty much either unaware of the legalities of the way their content is being used - or are just looking the other way in their contracts with the content suppliers - since they are also in breach of those contracts by someone sending traffic anywhere other than the sponsor that either leases or bought rights to that content.

[CraK]

Originally posted by RawAlex


HE WROTE THE RULES. YOU DON'T LIKE THE RULES, DON'T USE HIS CONTENT. IF YOU LIKE THE CONTENT, FOLLOW THE RULES.

How hard is it?

Alex

Where is it written clearly that states that only non-skimming tgps can use their content?

You guys can argue all you want to.. but the fact will remain that there are many better sponsors that actually know it's for their profit and allow it..

i'm not for kloot or against kloot.. i'm just saying what i know.. the rest depends on the sponsor and the tgp owner.. if the tgp owners want to go ahead and get shitted on by a fuckin sponsor who didn't know enough to post something like that in his faqs page in the first place.. that sponsor is out of touch with his competition programs

[MrMaryLou]

I think this issue with skimming needs its own thread http://www.greenguysboard.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10050

[RawAlex]

Crak, sponsor content can only be used to promote the sponsors site.

What part of that is so fucking hard to understand?

No different from putting up a Maxcash banner and having every 5th click download spyware. What's the difference?

NONE.

Alex

[CraK]

Originally posted by RawAlex
Crak, sponsor content can only be used to promote the sponsors site.

What part of that is so fucking hard to understand?

No different from putting up a Maxcash banner and having every 5th click download spyware. What's the difference?

NONE.

Alex

Yes i do know the sponsor content can only be used to promote the sponsor's site.. but all the sponsors i have come across so far have allowed tgps to use that content on their skim tgp..

I do admit that you are right, and there's nothing too hard with understanding that.. but how many thumb tgps do you know that dont skim atleast some percent? You think it will be such a good thing for the sponsor if they didnt allow all those thumb tgps to skim? Do you know how many sites will not promote that sponsor due to that?

It all comes down to the sponsor.. because thumb tgps will always be skimming from now on..

If the sponsor doesn't want their content to be used on skimming thumb tgps.. they should make that CLEAR.. because just by saying it is illegal to promote any other site using their content, it is not clear wether it includes the SKIM sites..

i guarantee you that if it was made clear, the sponsor would not be able to exist more than 2-3 months because all of their revenue would be gone..

That's all i had to add to this thread.. the rest is on the sponsor and the tgp webmasters

[Jim]

Originally posted by Greenguy


Did kloot have permission from Torn/Kat to use their content the way he did?

Yes...no wait, no. Then again, yes. No...I mean no. What was the question again? :)

I do believe it all boils down to which is better to use, live feeds or recorded feeds. Or maybe...that has nothing to do with this thread.

Truthfully...and regarding this thread, I promise. And Greenie will remember this. Back when Ultracash had all the cool branded content that we gave away. By the way...off on a tangent again, one of our newest sponsors, Matts Models (http://www.greenguysboard.com/phpadsnew/adclick.php?bannerid=264&zoneid=0&source=&dest=http%3A%2F%2Frefer.ccbill.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fclicks.cgi%3FCA%3D915726-0000%26PA%3D578509%26HTML%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.airwoodmedia.com) was the person that took all of those cool pictures. Anyway, Greenie would let me know every time he spotted someone using our content without promoting our sites. I ended up telling him to just let it go because, the pictures were branded. And, we received about 100 free signups/day just from people stealing our content. So, to me, it was like someone stealing a banner and putting it up. Since then, I have told every program owner I worked with, to take off the restrictions on content use. Using someones content in a way the owner doesn't like is stealing. But, taking off restrictions on free content as long as it is branded is a good business decision.

My head hurts now, I am going to lay down.

[Boogie]

I honestly dont think you folks are stupid enough to not understand this.

When you got the free content it had a terms and conditions? That terms and conditions said, hey, only use this to promote my sites.

If you do anything else you've broken the terms and condition of that agreement.

That's legally and morally wrong. You could use any other thumb on that TGP to promote your little fucking CJ scheme but you're not supposed to use their content to do it with.

Take a look at Nastydollars, for example, and their rules regarding their content.

We have someone at our office that does nothing other than surf the web and TGPs to find webmasters using our content and not following our rules. Violaters and their host are then sent a letter from our lawyer, via certified mail, with a cease and desist. Hosts, especially including free hosts, will always take down the content since they are liable too. If the content is still not taken down the cost per picture and/or movie is $6 per day (so if you have a 25 pic gallery that is costing you $150 per day..it is much easier to just follow the rules). COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS AN OPEN AND CLOSED CASE IN COURT AND WE HAVE SUCCESSFULLY PROSECUTED WEBMASTERS THAT HAVE VIOLATED OUR RULES.


IF this was nastydollars (or if you're doing the same with nastydollars, and they find out) you're up shit creek without a paddle.


Why is it so fucking hard to follow the rules of people who provide you with free content? I dont fucking get it.

Just follow the rules, christ. This isnt fucking highschool. You're not being cool by being rebelious. You broke an agreement, you got caught at it, fucking fix the problem and move on.

[Greenguy]

CraK - If you ask if you can borrow my car to go to the store & I say yes, I think it's pretty much implied that I don't want you to rob the store & use my car as the get-away vehicle.

Jim - your back in the day theory falls short because:
1 - the people using your content were not shrinking it down so that you could not see the branding
2 - were not using your content to falsely promote a site the surfer thought was yours

I'm sure we will fight more on the radio tonight :)

[urb]

I think skimming TGP's with thumb previews are skating on very thin ice.

Why should any sponsor have their material linked to spyware or a link trade?

If you have a TGP with sexually explicit thumb previews then you really need to read 2257 sometime soon.

A year or two down the line, you may even need to keep records for every hardcore banner!

[Cleo]

Skimming using preview thumbs is like me sending some of the traffic that clicks on an ARS banner to MaxCash, just is wrong to do.

[deleuze]

Greenguy, I completely agree with you in theory and this issue has come up once before a few months ago - almost identical situation where a relatively small sponsor with little understanding of TGPs was upset that an affiliate skimmed their content. In practice, however, I believe a standard has been set and all sponsors looking to gain TGP traffic should be aware of this standard.

Are you really prepared to state that the theory should override precedent when determining whether some site is illegal or not? I know you would never do business with an illegal site. Are you prepared to stop your trades with clearly illegal sites such as Pichunter, Teeniesxxx, and Teeniefiles and brand half the members of this board as cheaters? I think you're being too aggressive in your defense of Torn and your attack on kloot. Are you really telling me that everytime you visited a site like Madthumbs you were thinking, I can't believe the illegal crap this piece of shit CJ is trying to pull?

[Stouch]

Originally posted by Cleo
Skimming using preview thumbs is like me sending some of the traffic that clicks on an ARS banner to MaxCash, just is wrong to do.

I would disagree with that in that linking an ARS banner to Maxcash is cheating ARS, however skimming a thumbnail has an ulterior motive of making the site bigger and thus getting more click throughs to the sponsor.

The one big thing that this thread has shown is the difference in methods & attitudes between TGP webmasters & linklist webmasters.

I cant find any T & C's which would be very useful. You can say that a guy shouldnt have to say you cant use them for such a reason, however as Deleuze has succintly put, there are precedents in that 99% of sponsors do accept this use of their content.

[urb]

Originally posted by deleuze
all sponsors looking to gain TGP traffic should be aware of this standard.


Who set the standard? Who is the chief lemming?

Maybe you think there's safety in numbers? Can someone show me a link to a copy of this standard?

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2257.html

[Stouch]

Probably the pioneering thumbsites, and the pioneering sponsors who realised the amount of traffic they can capture by doing this.

What might be good is if a few sponsors could come into the thread and give their opinions/position on this? Probably more constructive than a big argument.

[deleuze]

Originally posted by urb
[B]Who set the standard? Who is the chief lemming?

Maybe you think there's safety in numbers? Can someone show me a link to a copy of this standard?



http://www.madthumbs.com
http://www.teeniefiles.com
http://www.hqgal.com
http://www.jamies-galleries.com
http://www.teeniesxxx.com
etc.

And those obliging:

http://www.nastydollars.com
http://www.topbucks.com
http://www.adult.com
http://www.silvercash.com
http://www.arsri.com
etc.

This isn't about stealing cars - it's about stealing french fries. Try going to a judge claiming that your friend dipped into your plate of fries and you want to be compensated. The judge would laugh you out of the courtroom because this is normal practice. But before she does, she would probably tell you that you should make a point of declaring your gluttony when eating around friends.

[Ramster]

This got a little off topic from Torn as he was pissed not only by the redirecting but the attempted spyware install.

Anyway...every thumb TGP that has ever used a hosted gallery breaks the rules...technically. These companies do not complain because this is the way it is.

That's what it boils down to. In today's world, thumb TGPs are a huge huge huge business and hosted galleries are apart of their business and skimming is what 90% of these sites do to grow and trade traffic. As already mentioned look at the top thumb sites as they all skim and all use hosted galleries.

[deleuze]

Originally posted by Ramster
This got a little off topic from Torn as he was pissed not only by the redirecting but the attempted spyware install.


Ramster, that argument is even weaker. Even if there was an attempted spyware install, the most Torn could do is say I don't want your traffic. He has absolutely no right to contact the host and get kloot shut down for copyright infringement because of this without first asking him to remove the thumbs and giving him ample time to do so.

[Greenguy]

Originally posted by deleuze
Greenguy, I completely agree with you in theory and this issue has come up once before a few months ago - almost identical situation where a relatively small sponsor with little understanding of TGPs was upset that an affiliate skimmed their content. In practice, however, I believe a standard has been set and all sponsors looking to gain TGP traffic should be aware of this standard.
This isn't some sort of fucking union where you can walk around & scream "PAST PRACTICE" & us that break the law! kloot did not have permission to use the content the way he did - END OF FUCKING STORY!

Originally posted by deleuze
Are you really prepared to state that the theory should override precedent when determining whether some site is illegal or not? I know you would never do business with an illegal site. Are you prepared to stop your trades with clearly illegal sites such as Pichunter, Teeniesxxx, and Teeniefiles and brand half the members of this board as cheaters? I think you're being too aggressive in your defense of Torn and your attack on kloot. Are you really telling me that everytime you visited a site like Madthumbs you were thinking, I can't believe the illegal crap this piece of shit CJ is trying to pull? Believe me, I look at all those trades almost every day & they all know that the term "greenguy" or "link-o-rama" has to be in the TEXT link to me (thumb links are not accepted), other wise I pull the trade. If you see one linking to me in an improper fashion, please let me know so I can pull their link.

*******

Here's a couple of other things to think about:
1 - Spamming is not legal & is very much frowned upon by legit webmasters, yet your inbox as well as mine is probably filled with it.
2 - Bestiality is legal in Texas, but I don't think you'll find anyone coming to it's defense if we found someone promoting it.
3 - The age of consent around the world varies, but no one ever sticks up for the CP producer when it's legal in his country.
4 - Napster lost & everyone was using that service :)

JUST BECASE EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT DOES NOT MAKE IT LEGAL!

[urb]

Originally posted by deleuze
He has absolutely no right to contact the host and get kloot shut down for copyright infringement because of this.

It's quite strange that they just shut kloot down without a warning. Maybe there is more to this than has been stated in this thread?

[Greenguy]

Originally posted by deleuze
....He has absolutely no right to contact the host and get kloot shut down for copyright infringement because of this without first asking him to remove the thumbs and giving him ample time to do so. He gave kloot 24 hours & notified the host as the same time, so your theory falls short.

[DangerDave]

I love watching CJ-ers defend themselves.. :(


I am with Torn 100%, his content, his choice. His content used to promote some other program is a direct contravention of his program rules.


What might be good is if a few sponsors could come into the thread Torn IS a sponsor and he says NO

I am a sponsor and I say NO


Theres two

DD

[urb]

Originally posted by deleuze

This isn't about stealing cars - it's about stealing french fries.

So do you think the US Government will start getting McDonalds to print on every bag of fries the originial farm address, proof of age and contact information for every potato that made up that bag of fries?

[deleuze]

Originally posted by Greenguy
He gave kloot 24 hours & notified the host as the same time, so your theory falls short.

So kloot is now also a liar? I call bullshit.

"I email Torn

Torn replies basically calling me a cheater. ALL I DID WAS LIST A DOZEN OF HER HOSTED GALLERIES ON A SITE WITH AN ENTER CONSOLE.

I immediately remove the hosted gallery links from my sites as requested within minutes and email her to tell her her links are removed

But too late."

[Greenguy]

What part of Torn emailing kloot & the host AT THE SAME TIME didn't you understand?

Torn stated earlier that he was surprised the host pulled his domain so quickly, seeing as he did give kloot 24 hours.

IMHO the hosting company did the right thing - no hosting company wants to have thieves on their servers & they acted quickly.

[deleuze]

Originally posted by Greenguy
IMHO the hosting company did the right thing - no hosting company wants to have thieves on their servers & they acted quickly.

Quickly as in illegally? So now it's OK for a host to not investigate the matter or contact the client? Face it, this has nothing to do with a strict interpretation of the law. When Ramster went after Candid everyone was up in arms because Candid wanted to follow the law to the tee and not bypass certain procedures to close the account. This has everything to do with you seeing an opportunity to rip on thumb TGPs not realizing that half the people in your backyard have themselves ventured down this road. I despise thumb TGPs myself but I'm not going to let that prevent me from seeing the complete ignorance and resultant overreaction demonstrated by a sponsor that caters to a certain clientele without understanding one of the most basic practices of this clientele.

[urb]

Originally posted by deleuze
one of the most basic practices of this clientale.

Lemmings' most basic practice is to jump off cliffs.

Do these TGPs have a FAQs section explaining that 1 in 5 clicks may install spyware?

[Torn Rose]

Damn, had I known this would have turned into WWIII I would have ran my errands tomorrow lol.

Ok, I’m reading over what everyone has had to say and I will try and address everything that has stuck out to me.

CraK I have every right in the world to notify his host or anyone else’s host that my content (which is 100% mine without question) is being used in a manner I say is illegal. Because if it became a issue of Lawyers being involved, I would bet you anything, that the first thing my lawyer would ask me is “Did I notify the host” and if I said “no” he would say do it and look in 24 hours, when I say “yes, and it’s still there” he would draw up the lawsuit and would name that host as well.

So nowadays, when I send a C&D I automatically send two at the same time, 1 to the person and 1 to the host.

And I do not know why his host shut him done, as I asked before but I do not see answered, did they just get ONE EMAIL from me, or is this the straw that broke the camels back? I would like to think I am so well known that one letter from me can take whole sites down, but somehow, looking past my ego, I don’t think that is possible or likely. I think there is much more to the story.

And from all the responses I have read Ramster nailed it 100%. I saw a URL I never seen in my stats, so I go look at it, get 3 Norton warnings and right off the bat I am pissed. I see my content; I click on 2 links with only1 going to my site, which is enough for me. I do not have to, or even need to give this person or anyone a warning. If I didn’t get the Norton pop ups would I have terminated his account? Odds are no I would not have, I would have told him no blind links, but I got virus crap so the deal was sealed.

You guys do not seem to realize, this isn’t some girl I paid to pose for me, so I couldn’t give a rats ass who thinks she is trying to scam them, this is my wife. I took the pictures, and together she and I spent almost 5 years of our life building KatVixen.com, it is **OUR** life, and **OUR** reputations on the line, when a surfer writes me telling me to fuck off because he got some virus from looking at pictures from my site, who is looking bad here? Someone taking short cuts that have nothing but a little time invested in this, or is it Toni and I when our WHOLE LIFE is involved in our site 24/7?

I also think it’s funny that a few of you say it’s my fault because I didn’t have “DO NOT DO THIS” posted. Do I also need to post “Do Not Shoot me with a gun” on every page? That is kind of like who was the dumbass that was the reason they have to put “DO NOT EAT” warning labels on rat poison.

Common Sense.

[AdvancedHosters]

Originally posted by kloot

skipped

Advanced hosters have deleted http://www.bumperboobs.com/ because Torn tells them I have unlicenced content there!

skipped


just to make it clear.... i AIN'T deleted this domain. i forwarded Torn's complaint to freehost owner. freehost owner suspended kloot's domain....
so please, don't post on board that AdvancedHosters deleted your domain... ok?

[Torn Rose]

Here are the 3 emails I sent.

*********First Email***********
to cjerrett@tiscali.co.uk

Chris Jerrett
12 Chestnut Close
Bath, Somerset BA3 3UY
United Kingdom
Domain Name: BUMPERBOOBS.COM

You are misusing my hosted content, this is your only warning, you can NOT use any of my content for your redirects, Trojans or whatever else crap you are trying to install on peoples computers.

I will give you 24 hours to remove all my content from all of your sites before I notify my lawyers.

I will be sending this to your host as well as canceling your affiliate status with http://www.katcash.com. After 24 hours anything I see on ANY of your sites belonging to me will be considered stolen and legal action will be taken.

Torn
http://www.katcash.com

********Second Email**************

To info@AdvancedHosters.com


This person is misusing my hosted content for redirecting to sites not my own and installing unwanted Trojans and whatever else they are trying to install on peoples pcs.

Chris Jerrett
12 Chestnut Close
Bath, Somerset BA3 3UY
United Kingdom
Domain Name: BUMPERBOOBS.COM

I gave them 24 hours to remove all my content or I will consider it stolen, as the host you may want to make sure it is off your servers in 24 hours other wise I will send all information to my lawyers for proper legal action.


Thank you

Torn Rose
http://www.katcash.com

******Third Email*********

sent to kloot@btopenworld.com

This is the email I sent today to cjerrett@tiscali.co.uk

Chris Jerrett

12 Chestnut Close
Bath, Somerset BA3 3UY
United Kingdom
Domain Name: BUMPERBOOBS.COM

You are misusing my hosted content, this is your only warning, you can NOT use any of my content for your redirects, Trojans or whatever else crap you are trying to install on peoples computers.

I will give you 24 hours to remove all my content from all of your sites before I notify my lawyers.

I will be sending this to your host as well as canceling your affiliate status with http://www.katcash.com. After 24 hours anything I see on ANY of your sites belonging to me will be considered stolen and legal action will be taken.

Torn
http://www.katcash.com

[Mike]

Originally posted by Ramster
Mike, how are you? You did a tgp design for me a while back.


Hey Ramster :)

I'm fine. Working with Rob now, as you might know, from Brokertraffic.com for 50 new TGP designs.

Hope you're doing fine too.

[Stouch]

Looking at the last 2 posts, Torn did give 24 hours. AH forwarded their mail to the freehost. The freehost didnt bother to give Kloot the chance to comply with Torns request.

Shit bad luck that you chose that freehost provider. |sad|

[Greenguy]

deleuze - What's to investigate? The guy had Torn & Kat's content on his site illegally! & don't mix threads & try to equate this to Ramster's problem - his main bitch was that Candid didn't even reply to him in a satisfactory manner until he took it to the boards - plus that thread had to do with hotlinking, which is a different kind of theft, but one that is also easily noticed & fixed with the flick of a switch.

And this only has to do with TGP's in that kloot had the image on a TGP - if it happened on a link list, it would have still been theft. The "excuse" was that other TGP's do the same thing - and once again, just because everyone else does it does not make it legal!

The only ignorance going on around here is by those that think it is ok to steal content & use it for whatever they want to use it for.

***

Free Host? LOL This is getting better & better by the minute :D

[MrMaryLou]

|pokefun| Free host time for some |popcorn| this is getting good |jester|

[deleuze]

Originally posted by Greenguy
The only ignorance going on around here is by those that think it is ok to steal content & use it for whatever they want to use it for.


That's fine if you want to take that approach so long as you understand that every thumb TGP (I've yet to come accross a no-skim one of any significance) is using content illegally including those you trade traffic with. Even if they don't link to you from the stolen images, why would you even want to be associated with such thiefs? And why is kloot being used as the scapegoat when already there have been a few regulars on this board that have posted in this thread admitting their crimes? Surely Greenguy you didn't realize just today what a thumb TGP is and the practices they use - why have you waited till now to voice your opinions when all you have to do is browse around this board and see thieves soliticing business from and promoting their business to fellow thieves. Using your earlier examples, would you allow the promotion and discussion of spam, bestiality, CP, and warez to take place on this board?

[Greenguy]

Many people, myself included, had no idea of the legality of this problem. I don't do any circle jerk or skim stuff, so why the fuck would I care.

And, as Jim has stated, some people don't care about their content being used in this way & I say good for them - it's their content, they can make up their own rules.

But we're not talking about anything other than kloot using Torn's content illegally - that is the main topic of this discussion.

Oh - BTW - I will be going over my trades tomorrow morning to see who's doing what & will be adjusting my trades at that time - thank you so much for your concern for my site & trades :)

...and listen to the radio show tonight (one hour from now) as Jim & I will be discussing this as well as out next big contest :D

[Mike]

This is too funny... it's like being back in 1994 |waves|

I will gladly hear from programs who doesn't want me to use their hosted galleries (with their thumbnail on my sites) to promote their program. I will gladly remove them in a hurry if they contact me and complain about the traffic I send from all my sites.

I highly doubt any of them will thou because they'll lose quite a lot of traffic then.

TopBucks, SilverCash, NastyDollars, TripleXcash, RealityCash are just a few of those I use. Contact me if you want to be removed from any of my Thumb TGPs and of course other Thumb TGPs in this business.

[Torn Rose]

Your right Mike, this is too funny....

Too funny you are only seeing HALF the story....

Explain the trojans/virus/whatever Norton said that was trying to install on my PC.

Do you do that as well?

The shit that setoff my Norton ***IS*** what started this, everything else is just the topping.

Funny how this point has yet to be addressed.....

[Bill]

There's only one reason to use a fucking free host for a fucking thumb TGP, and that's because you are a fucking crook who fully and consciously intends to fuck people over, right from the get go.

Bragging about your fucking thumbtgp income and the goddamn thing is on a fucking freehost autodownloading trojans? Who the fuck is the idiot and the crook in this case?

The copyright issues with thumb tgps have been discussed from one end to the other on dozens of boards. It's always been a risk, and thumbtgps have always been vulnerable to copyright holders. You should have known this before you started with your fucking autoinstalls.

A fucking freehost... So, do your traders know you been downloading trojans on their traffic?

It's shit like this that ruined the TGP biz. Used to be a nice business.

[DangerDave]

Mike, you might be surprised who does respond to this topic/thread... and you may see some changes..

I could go build a thumb TGP today and use ND content to make nice big thumbs and send all 99% traffic to ARSRI.. would ND worry... maybe they will now..


That's fine if you want to take that approach so long as you understand that every thumb TGP (I've yet to come accross a no-skim one of any significance) is using content illegally including those you trade traffic with. Even if they don't link to you from the stolen images, why would you even want to be associated with such thiefs? And why is kloot being used as the scapegoat when already there have been a few regulars on this board that have posted in this thread admitting their crimes? Surely Greenguy you didn't realize just today what a thumb TGP is and the practices they use - why have you waited till now to voice your opinions when all you have to do is browse around this board and see thieves soliticing business from and promoting their business to fellow thieves. Using your earlier examples, would you allow the promotion and discussion of spam, bestiality, CP, and warez to take place on this board? deleuze? Since when did GG decide on the laws of copyright and fair use.. You seem to be blaming him for everything.

There are plenty of us that dont use circle-jerk crap, and run thumb TGPs. It's perfectly doable and perfectly legal..

Kloot is no scapegoat... he was just the first to publically have the law enforced against him. Torn is still 100% correct

DD

[deleuze]

Originally posted by Torn
Funny how this point has yet to be addressed.....

Funny how you consider this an issue. Can you please direct me to the spot in your terms where it says one is not allowed to place your content on a page that may set off someone's Norton antivirus? If it's not there, then this happenstance has absolutely nothing to do with content theft. Your lack of sophistication leads me to believe you've been away from the internet for the last 5 years. I'm surprised you even know what a hosted gallery is because you obviously don't know who uses them and why they use them. Nor do you know who else makes them and why they make them. Marketing them in your sig with your terms (which by the way, I still can't for the life of me find on your site) is like advertising mailer creatives and then shutting down an affiliate for bulk mailing because the creatives were only meant for e-mailing friends and family. Sure it's your content and your site and you are most likely in the right, and that's cool so as long as you understand that you are alone in this position and will be fighting this battle alone as there has been an implicit agreement between thumb sites and sponsors that predates your offering of hosted galleries and will continue to exist long after you realize very few sites are capable of sending you significant traffic with the rules you adhere to.

[Torn Rose]

LOL... yeah all alone... all by myself.....

|jester|

[DangerDave]

deleuze! or is that "deluded"?!

I'm surprised you even know what a hosted gallery is because you obviously don't know who uses them and why they use them Circle Jerk TGP'ers are only ONE group that use them. There are plenty of others that use them perfectly legally and appropriately.

Sure it's your content and your site and you are most likely in the right, and that's cool so as long as you understand that you are alone in this position He is not alone..! in any way.. Anyone uses my content on a circle jerk thumb TGP they will be hearing from me. So that's two.. and I have no doubt more will come.

implicit agreement between thumb sites and sponsors that predates your offering of hosted galleries :) ?? Where would I find a copy of this agreement?????

DD

[Torn Rose]

Hey URB, instead of the 1-2 pages I asked for the new KatCash design you are working on, I may need 5 to 10 extra pages for all the rules... let me know how much this will cost.









(Just Kidding of course, I will add those myself!)



|haha

[deleuze]

Originally posted by DangerDave
:) ?? Where would I find a copy of this agreement?????

DD

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=implicit

:)

The funny thing is when this issue arose a few months ago, I was about the only one defending the sponsor because as you said Torn is still in the right legally. However, with the other incident, the sponsor sent out an e-mail to affiliates stating that they had just realized what was happening and did not want their hosted galleries used in such a way. I have absolutely no problem with sponsors choosing to allocate their content in such a way and in fact, it does make a certain amount of sense. I do have a problem however with a sponsor displaying complete ignorance towards the business they choose to enter and then use this ignorance to attack and ruin someone in an attempt to make themselves look more righteous and uphold a certain mode of operation that is no longer the norm. It's reactionary behaviour at it's finest and I would have just loved to see how things would have played out if Torn came to this board bitching because a site like Madthumbs was using his thumbs illegally to send him 20 signups/day.

[Stouch]

I have a purely hypothetical question.

If I were promoting Katcash on a TGP gallery using your content would I be able to submit my gallery to a thumb TGP?

Bearing in mind they will use a thumbnail as the enticement to visit the gallery, and in all likelihood be operating a skim?

Where would I stand as a submitter, ie would you term my account and report me to my host? And what action would be taken against the thumb TGP in question?

Would I be restricted to sifting through the 1000's TGP's out there in order to find those that dont skim.

Although hypothetical these are valid concerns for a potential affiliate.

[Mike]

Originally posted by Torn
Your right Mike, this is too funny....

Too funny you are only seeing HALF the story....

Explain the trojans/virus/whatever Norton said that was trying to install on my PC.

Do you do that as well?

The shit that setoff my Norton ***IS*** what started this, everything else is just the topping.

Funny how this point has yet to be addressed.....

Listen Torn, when you trade with sites, as MANY MANY MANY webmasters do, you will sometimes end up with a trade who will add dialers, chained exit or exploits to his sites. Only thing you can do is to remove the trade and move on.

But calling people piss ants, cheaters, ect is just too far out for me and we sure got a good laugh over this.

Anyone who knows me, and there are a few who does, know I fight cheaters with all I got. If I spot a cheater I don't let go before he's down and stay down.

It's your business and I respect that.
I will of course not add your hosted galleries on any of my sites when you don't want it.

But for now I give up... best of luck with your business.

[Phinneus]

This is truly an amazing topic and has made me aware of a few things

this isnt jsut tgp owners involved........also includes submitters that use sponser content.

you submit to thumb tgps?
do they skim?
guess who is a cheater?

you tgp hosting it and cant forget the host(if they dont respond with action) sponser coud go apeshit on the whole chain......do they?

no of course not....cause its making them income

as for installers popups etc I dislike them 100% and woudnt knoledgly trade with a site using them. but to each is own....he can piss of his surfer all he wants its his site.

but ill go back to lurking jsut wanted to state a point that this is an easy way of cancelling account for more then jsut the tgp owner......imagine submitting for months and months and getitng your traffic up to liek 100k a day.........and your main sponser decides he dont liek his content posted on thumb tgps.....your gonan get the shaft same way kosk or whatever his name did.

so choose your sponsers wisely.

pz,
Phinneus

[Greenguy]

Originally posted by deleuze
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=implicit

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=copyright

:)

[Dr Bizzaro]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=drama

[rowan]

No one seems to have mentioned this yet.

http://www.out-law.com/php/page.php?page_id=uscircuitruleson1013091677&area=news

Regardless of how you feel about a tiny thumbnail of your content *sometimes* going to trades, it may still be fully legal in the eyes of a US court.

[buttface_mcgee]

the theory behind skimming works to the sponsor's benefit. every trade script i have used is set up to return at least 2 to 3 clicks for every click i get in trade. both parties are set up to do this. so yes, while one click on your thumb may not go to your gallery, my TGP will receive net 2 or 3 clicks in return for that which will click on your gallery.

skimming is NOT cj. CJ sites are set up to send ALL clicks to trades, and if i were a sponsor, i would probably take issue. however, i don't know of any TGPs offhand that don't skim 5% or more to trades in return for at least twice the number of clicks sent. sponsors and TGP owners both benefit.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Jesus H Christ On A Popsicle Stick! I can't believe you guys are still talking about "traffic"

kloot took an image from Kat & Torn & used to to promote a site other than Kat & Torn's site - what's part of the illegalness of this do some of you not understand?

Holy crap I can't believe the stupidity in this thread....

Torn are you honestly telling me you are calling this guy a cheater because he used your "free" hosted galleries on a thumb TGP that skims traffic? So you are claiming because he skims traffic he is a cheater?

Or is it because he has a pop up or a tool bar install? Jesus you better not visit CNN.com those assholes have a few pop ups they must be cheating someone.. Holy crap what would you do if you visited Madthumbs.com or Sublimedirectory.com those assholes must cheat two.. I mean hell they skim traffic, guess you don't want any of their traffic either..

Greenguy I would think someone in your position would have the ability to understand the way a common day TGP works.. Jesus wake up it's not 1998.. you ever heard of UCJ, TM3, epower trader? Dose everyone that uses a traffic trading script or has a pop up on their site make them a cheater in your books? Hell you better not visit 99% of the adult programs out there because I can't count the numbers of programs that have exit consoles.

You guys are truly unbelievable, I have never once had a sponsor that had any issues about me sending hit via a TGP with skimmed traffic.. I hate to say it, but on modern day TGP's you guys are truly clueless..

[Rictor]

This thread is insane. If you don't understand how modern TGPs work you shouldn't offer hosted galleries in the first place.

[Torn Rose]

LOL... never fails.... you get one person crying "Torn called this guy a cheater" and everyone jumps in.

Please ANYONE.... show me ANYWHERE I said this guy was a cheater?

Only thing I called him was a "piss ant"….. wow.... a piss ant.... can I go any lower?

And yet still damn near everyone wants to point fingers and say "they all do it" well, no they ALL do not do it. And looking at my best affiliates not one of the top 10 uses this method. (which I got tired of looking and stopped at 10.)

But now more then one person cries "Torn said...." and they fill in the blank with whatever they want to fill it in with, but not with anything that I actually said.

All I said was **MY CONTENT** was being misused and I wanted it to stop. I couldn’t give a rat’s ass what silver cash and nasty dollars do, not my problem.

And as many times a day as I go to cnn.com I have not once had Norton popup on me warning me about anything so that was a real good argument.

Don’t use my stuff, that’s your choice, but if you use it you better use it right, and not “what everyone else said it was ok to do”.

Anyone who is a current affiliate of mine and no longer wishes to be, by all means let me know and I will terminate your account. No hard feelings here at all.

Everyone will do what they think is best for them to do…. Unless of course everyone else does something else then we will all do that instead.

[crockett]

Torn maybe my post was a bit harsh, but the reference to CNN.com was meant to be about pop ups. I really believe you should take a look at how 90% of the TGP's out there work. You will find that skimming traffic is a very very common thing.

Everybody can't be the Hun, I truly believe you just do not understand how TGP's work these days. It's ashame you took such drastic measures on someone that was following a common day practice for 90% of the TGP's out there..

You are 100% right you have every right in the world to dictate the terms your content is used. However being your terms are out of the norm of common day sponsors that provide free hosted galleries you should clearly mark this on your site that you do not allows TGP's whom trade traffic to use your FHG's.

IMO this is your fault, I read your site, I saw nothing about a TOS agreement for how to use your hosted galleries. After all how can you expect someone to not use the galleries in a certain way, if you do not tell them they can't. Again it seems you do not understand how most TGP's these days work.

BTW.. I noticed you live in Melbourne, FL. I just moved from their was right off of 192 out by 95.. was born and raised in that town.. Just moved up to Daytona Beach this last month, wish I would have known there was another adult webmaster in town.

Just as a side note I will let you know I personally run a few TGP sites, every single one has sponsor hosted galleries and I trade traffic on them by skimming same as koot was doing. Again This is a very common practice, I personally don't have pop ups or tool bars but a lot of guys do use these methods. It's just a fact of life in adult and even on mainstream websites. You clearly should dictate that you do not want traffic from sites using these methods in a TOS (which I didn't even see a TOS on your site). btw every single sponsor I have ever signed up for I have used one of my traffic skimming TGP's as my example site.. not a single one has ever complained or denied me as a affiliate.

You may want to take this into consideration.. if a site skims 60-70% that means 60-70% of the hits are going to the galleries and 30-40% are going to traffic trades. Sites that do this are constantly growing in size. This means if he sent you a few hundred hits last month , this month could be a thousand or so and it will keep growing.

[DonovanPhillips]

I hate to say it, but I see several veterans here that really need to educate themselves. Crockett is preaching the gospel truth, brothers.

Whether it "sucks" or not, things work much differently now. Evolve or disappear, your choice.

Anyone that has been asked to remove Torn's hosted galleries: I'd love to invite you to replace them with mine. I get it.

EDIT TO ADD: Did you guys know that many of you are being ridiculed on other boards because of your cluelessness. But the good news is that the link to this thread is bringing new traffic here.

[pornodoggy]

I have to agree with Rictor, although the word that came to my mind is pathetic.

[DangerDave]

Oh great we definitely need more ill-informed input

skimming is NOT cj. CJ sites are set up to send ALL clicks to trades CJ is CJ is CJ... face it... you're circle jerkers..


Why does everyone think they have to explain TGP's/CJs to Greeny... Of course he understand what they are. Christ.!


Just because people CJ/TGP and use thumbs to promote other programs sites etc doesn't make it legal or right.. The argument that "it exists .. therefore it is alright" is fundamentally flawed. Sound like the argument a spammer would use.:(

EDIT TO ADD: Did you guys know that many of you are being ridiculed on other boards because of your cluelessness. But the good news is that the link to this thread is bringing new traffic here. Well that's it I am quitting the biz.. I cant stand being ridiculed on GFY it's such a reputable board.:(

..and now it's Torn's fault... Sheesh

You can all agree with each other, but it doesnt change the situation at all.

DD

[Meadint]

Originally posted by rowan
No one seems to have mentioned this yet.

http://www.out-law.com/php/page.php?page_id=uscircuitruleson1013091677&area=news

Regardless of how you feel about a tiny thumbnail of your content *sometimes* going to trades, it may still be fully legal in the eyes of a US court.

Rowan, the issue is not about posting thumbs of other peoples images. That is toltally legal ... as long as the thumbnail is linked to the actual image (gallery). The problem here is the skimming: That a certain percentage of the clicks will go to something else than the image (gallery). There has been no ruling about that by any court as far as I know.

I agree with Greenguy and Torn that it is probably technical illegal to post thumbnails on a thumb tgp that skims a certain percentage of traffic to trades. I don't really see why Torn should put in his T&C that use of his images on a skimming thumb tgp is not allowed, when it is probably technically illegal according to the copyright legislation.

It would be appreciated tho if all the sponsors who are happy to see their images on skimming thumb tgps put in their T&C that it is OK to use their FHGs on skimming tgps. Today it's a silent understanding, but as a thumb tgp webmaster I cannot use a silent understanding to anything if I come across a sponsor who doesn't like it and decide to take me to court.

[buttface_mcgee]

Originally posted by Meadint
Rowan, the issue is not about posting thumbs of other peoples images. That is toltally legal ... as long as the thumbnail is linked to the actual image (gallery). The problem here is the skimming: That a certain percentage of the clicks will go to something else than the image (gallery). There has been no ruling about that by any court as far as I know.

I agree with Greenguy and Torn that it is probably technical illegal to post thumbnails on a thumb tgp that skims a certain percentage of traffic to trades. I don't really see why Torn should put in his T&C that use of his images on a skimming thumb tgp is not allowed, when it is probably technically illegal according to the copyright legislation.

It would be appreciated tho if all the sponsors who are happy to see their images on skimming thumb tgps put in their T&C that it is OK to use their FHGs on skimming tgps. Today it's a silent understanding, but as a thumb tgp webmaster I cannot use a silent understanding to anything if I come across a sponsor who doesn't like it and decide to take me to court.

why would a sponsor not want the TGP on which they are listed to grow their traffic and clicks as much as possible? yes they might give away 5 out of a hundred clicks. but that 5 will return 10 or maybe 20. those 10/20 will click more than once. as someone from another board said, it's the difference between 100% of 10,000 clicks or 70% of 100,000 clicks. which would you rather have? if you're a sponsor, which board would you rather be listed on?

[Meadint]

I'm sure 99% of all sponsors who chose to make hosted galleries are more than happy to see them posted on skimming thumb tgps. But that doesn't really help me if it doesn't say so in their terms and they suddenly change their mind. Or if I come across a sponsor like Torn who doesn't want his content on a skimming thumb tgp and he closes my site. Legally Torn is right about this one, I'm afraid. And that's why I think it would be a good idea if all sponsors who like to see their hosted galleries on skimming thumb tgps says so in their terms.

BTW do you think a sponsor would be happy if you skimmed 80% of your traffic to trades ... or 99% ... what's the limit?

[Stouch]

Originally posted by DangerDave
Oh great we definitely need more ill-informed input

CJ is CJ is CJ... face it... you're circle jerkers..
DD

Is there a pecking order?

[urb]

Originally posted by crockett
Jesus wake up it's not 1998..

|buddy|
I had a TGP on a free host in 1998.

So why are people still using free hosts for TGPs in 2004 and expecting to stay online?

[Lee]

I seriously cant beleive most of the replies in this thread LOL

Just to make it clear to everyone, running a CJ site and skimming TGP traffic isnt illegal and i would say that a good 95% of TGPs currently in operation today do it in some way shape or form.

This thread has really opened my eyes to some of the long standing webmasters in this business to. Especially as it would seem a lot of the havent got a clue about trading traffic or the law.

Regards,

Lee

[kloot]

Originally posted by urb
|buddy|
I had a TGP on a free host in 1998.

So why are people still using free hosts for TGPs in 2004 and expecting to stay online?

I also had 2 servers and a few virtual accounts.

It was a freehost belonging to a friend of mine. But he sold it a few months back. I've put up a blank html page there with just empty head and body tags and it does indeed seem to produce a popup which is not meant to be there. But that's what some freehosts do, I guess they have to make money somehow. I hadn't noticed it before. I didn't put it there.

Remember this, Torn posted on AWI inviting AWI webmasters to join his program. So I joined, and just added gallerys to thumbscript. http://bbs.adultwebmasterinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71774

However, I'd just like to reiterate this one point YES I HAD AN ENTER CONSOLE, NO - I DID NOT PUT VIRUS TROJAN EXPLOIT OR SPYWARE CODE ON MY PAGE.

And no, re-reading this thread, I don't believe that Torn has called me a cheater, but this thread is posted in the "possible cheaters" forum.

I shan't post here again. If you want to continue this discussion please do so at AWI.

[volante]

Originally posted by Greenguy
CraK - If you ask if you can borrow my car to go to the store & I say yes, I think it's pretty much implied that I don't want you to rob the store & use my car as the get-away vehicle.

What if he went to get gas as well? You didn't give him permission to, but because he did you can now drive a bit farther.

Kloot skims traffic from Torn's galleries to a trade. This (hopefully) increases traffic to Kloot's site. More traffic to Kloot's site = more traffic to Torn's galleries = more money for Kloot AND Torn

Is this illegal? As Torn didn't give permission for Kloot to do this, yes.

Is Torn a clueless idiot? Yes.

[Greenguy]

Holy Fuck! :D

No one said that skimming is illegal, but back in the day when it all started, there were no "thumb TGP's" & it was just a skim off a text link. Personally, I'm not one to fuck over my surfers with blind links in the hopes that others will fuck over their surfers with other blind links & maybe one of them will buy something when they get fucked & sent to my site. I prefer good old fashioned hard work & marketing skills to get sales.

Now you have webmasters posting a copyrighted image but not sending all the traffic to that site & IMHO that is illegal.

In this case, you also had all kinds of alarms going off because of the malicious pop-up's that came when you clicked as well.

Put yourself in Torn's shoes - you shot this content - it's for your personal website - you see one of the images on someone else's site & click on it, thinking that you'll be going to a gallery on your server. You then get sent to a top list or some other site & have your spyware alarm's going off left & right. You'd be pissed too!

If other sponsor's & content providers want to allow this, that's great - good for them! But we are not talking about anyone other than Torn & Kat! Their website, their content - THEIR RULES!

[Torn Rose]

LOL.... I have still yet to see an "entrance counsel" that set off my Norton 3 times..... But I guess when it’s been removed you can say it was anything you want. Care to explain why the site was taken down over an “entrance counsel”?

Looking forward to seeing everyone in Hollywood, I'll be there From tonight to Monday and more then willing to talk face to face about this or anything else.

Have a good trip everyone!

|bananna|

[Greenguy]

Torn - I'm sure you & me will be the target of many conversations this weekend :D

[LadyMischief]

Holy... a more clueless group of people about tgp I have never seen in all my days... I will make sure to add Katcash to the list of sponsors I won't be promoting, and I'm glad to know my "shit" tgp traffic is so shitty. I'll keep it all to myself thanks :)

Oh and Torn, you might have been better off going to the affiliate and discussing it with him before actually goign to a board and bashing him.. did you even bother to contact him before you ran here? Damn, that's a fine way to treat an affiliate.

[LadyMischief]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Holy Fuck! :D

No one said that skimming is illegal, but back in the day when it all started, there were no "thumb TGP's" & it was just a skim off a text link. Personally, I'm not one to fuck over my surfers with blind links in the hopes that others will fuck over their surfers with other blind links & maybe one of them will buy something when they get fucked & sent to my site. I prefer good old fashioned hard work & marketing skills to get sales.

Now you have webmasters posting a copyrighted image but not sending all the traffic to that site & IMHO that is illegal.

In this case, you also had all kinds of alarms going off because of the malicious pop-up's that came when you clicked as well.

Put yourself in Torn's shoes - you shot this content - it's for your personal website - you see one of the images on someone else's site & click on it, thinking that you'll be going to a gallery on your server. You then get sent to a top list or some other site & have your spyware alarm's going off left & right. You'd be pissed too!

If other sponsor's & content providers want to allow this, that's great - good for them! But we are not talking about anyone other than Torn & Kat! Their website, their content - THEIR RULES!

TGP's don't "skim" traffic to be crafty..they do it to fuel trades and encourage growth. Why a sponsor would want to limit the growth of a potentially endless stream of traffic is beyond me. That "skim" can mean the difference between 1000 people going to see that sponsor's gallery and 100,000 people. If the way TGPS are grown and administrated are a problem, by all means it's Torn and Kat's perrogative to discontinue allowing people to use the content in this way.. But it's funny when you realize a lot of the really big programs come to people like us and trust us with their content to brand their girls and their sites. There IS a reason for this, you know.

[tgpguy]

Just my humble opinion, if you run a pay site and Don't want to have your content used on a thumb tgp that skims it is a business decision I can admire in the fact that you are willing to give up a good 35% to 45% of your income potential on principle. All I can say is Bravo and welcome to the cheese line :)

I can't believe this conversation is even taking place at all. And to think that Torn was on AWI soliciting tgp webmasters to promote his "humble" little site.

Jerked around a bit or not.....TGP's are here to stay and command a sizeable chunk of the total traffic picture........So go ahead and opt out of that corner of the market.......go ahead.......crazier things have been done........like patting yourself on the back because a bunch of linklist guys happen to agree with your position.

Skimming is not your enemy.......the damn "xxx toolbar" is! I hate those damn things and hate it even more when somebody tries to autoinstall one on my machine. I see fewer and fewer sites trying this now.

[LadyMischief]

Originally posted by tgpguy
Just my humble opinion, if you run a pay site and Don't want to have your content used on a thumb tgp that skims it is a business decision I can admire in the fact that you are willing to give up a good 35% to 45% of your income potential on principle. All I can say is Bravo and welcome to the cheese line :)

I can't believe this conversation is even taking place at all. And to think that Torn was on AWI soliciting tgp webmasters to promote his "humble" little site.

Jerked around a bit or not.....TGP's are here to stay and command a sizeable chunk of the total traffic picture........So go ahead and opt out of that corner of the market.......go ahead.......crazier things have been done........like patting yourself on the back because a bunch of linklist guys happen to agree with your position.

Skimming is not your enemy.......the damn "xxx toolbar" is! I hate those damn things and hate it even more when somebody tries to autoinstall one on my machine. I see fewer and fewer sites trying this now.

Amen.

[crockett]

Originally posted by Greenguy

Put yourself in Torn's shoes - you shot this content - it's for your personal website - you see one of the images on someone else's site & click on it, thinking that you'll be going to a gallery on your server. You then get sent to a top list or some other site & have your spyware alarm's going off left & right. You'd be pissed too!

If other sponsor's & content providers want to allow this, that's great - good for them! But we are not talking about anyone other than Torn & Kat! Their website, their content - THEIR RULES!

GG I did put myself in thorn's shoes and I did look at his program.. unless I am blind and couldn't see it, there is no TOS on his site. I will state it again every single sponsor program I have ever signed up for, I have used a skimming TGP as my example site, and never once has this ever been a issue with any of them.

Making Torns case the first I've ever seen of a sponsor complaining about skimmed traffic. So being that his rules seem to be out of the norm of 95% of all the other programs providing free hosted galleries, don't you think he should have at least put his rules on his page? How can someone follow rules if they don't know what they are?

Loot said yes he skims, loot said he did have a console (pop up) but he said the auto install is from the free host.. Is that really that hard for you to believe? Dose Porngraph ring any bells in your head? Did that free counter not get sold and the new owner started auto installing toolbars on everyone using his service just like Koot said happened with the free host he was using whom he said was orginally owned by a friend?

While Torn might not have come out and said koot was cheater, he did pretty much did imply the fact, and went as far as sending his host a C&D letter.. Some of you jumped right on the bandwagon and started calling and implying he was a cheater with out even doing any reasearch. Which in fact if you follow the rules on Katcash.com, Koot is not a cheater because there are in fact no rules on the site.

[DonovanPhillips]

Originally posted by crockett
While Torn might not have come out and said koot was cheater, he did pretty much did imply the fact, and went as far as sending his host a C&D letter.. Some of you jumped right on the bandwagon and started calling and implying he was a cheater with out even doing any reasearch. Which in fact if you follow the rules on Katcash.com, Koot is not a cheater because there are in fact no rules on the site.

God DAMN, brother! The preachin' is GOOD today! You keep preachin' that Gospel and I'll keep puttin' some cash into the offerin' plate!

Keep on showin' 'em the light, my brotha!



|bananna|

[Jim]

Originally posted by tgpguy
Just my humble opinion, if you run a pay site and Don't want to have your content used on a thumb tgp that skims it is a business decision I can admire in the fact that you are willing to give up a good 35% to 45% of your income potential on principle. All I can say is Bravo and welcome to the cheese line :)

I can't believe this conversation is even taking place at all. And to think that Torn was on AWI soliciting tgp webmasters to promote his "humble" little site.

Jerked around a bit or not.....TGP's are here to stay and command a sizeable chunk of the total traffic picture........So go ahead and opt out of that corner of the market.......go ahead.......crazier things have been done........like patting yourself on the back because a bunch of linklist guys happen to agree with your position.

Skimming is not your enemy.......the damn "xxx toolbar" is! I hate those damn things and hate it even more when somebody tries to autoinstall one on my machine. I see fewer and fewer sites trying this now.

I agree with you almost 100%. If I was the sponsor in question, I would be happy to let anyone do anything they wanted with content I "gave away". To me...it's just good business. I have had the same feelings since the very beginning and don't think they will ever change.

But, if you look at Torn's first post, you will see that one of the problems is the content was being used" to help install whatever crap he is trying to install." I believe that would be "the damn "xxx toolbar"" that you mention or something just as bad. Would I go out policing my content to make sure it wasn't being used for that...No. But, if I stumbled on someone using my content to install something, I think I would be pissed off. I would have written to the advertiser and asked him to stop. I would not have gotten any host involved until I was sure that didn't work. And I would not have terminated the advertiser's account. But, that's just me. I also believe that if you are going to "give away" content and you have rules about using it, you should make sure they are posted clearly.

Until GreenguyandJim, I did nothing but run and market affiliate programs. I believe that is why my thoughts on this subject differ so much from the other regulars on GreenguyandJim. I have always been about the business of making money for the affiliate program. I don't think you will see sponsors coming out of the woodwork saying they would allow this type of thing. Just as you will not see sponsors saying they allow email spamming. But, most of them do. That's just the way it is.

Torn, you and I should really sit down and talk in Florida :)

[Tommy]

Can a sponsor tell you that you cant have consoles on your site
or use toolbars or even spyware. Can they cancel you because they dont like your advertising methods

whats next..... Torn tells you what colors your site should be

I think thats a violation of free speech
in fact in canceling your account because you use consoles or spyware he has violated your civil rights. In fact I would bet its actionable.

but of course thats only if you and Torn are in the usa

he made those galleries for tgp owners to use.
90% of tgps skim traffic, if torn made those gallerys and didnt know how tgp's really work then thats really torns problem

[pornodoggy]

Please.

It is not a violation of anyone's civil rights for a business to place limitations on how their product is promoted. In the "brick and mortar" world, you will get told what specific color and brand of ink to use for printed promotional materials by an awful lot of companies.

I don't think most people posting in this thread are nearly as clueless as they are coming off ... this is just the very tired, very overdone, very pointless "to skim or not to skim" conversation wrapped up in a new package.

Incidentally ... was there a clause in the TOS prohibitting promotion of the sponsor on sites also doing autodownloads?

[Tommy]

Lets not forget that his tgp got shut down because of this
and at this point is still down

[urb]

I think this is very unfair to Torn.

Just because he is the first sponsor to actually stand up and say...
"Hey!! don't use my content like this!"

If the TGP had been on a paid host, then I am sure kloot would have had the chance to comply with Torn's request.

Let's just put this behind us and learn something from it.

[Ramster]

Torn DIDN'T shut the guy down. He asked the guy to remove the content by emailing him and emailing his host. That's it. His host shut him down so he needs to deal with the host by not giving him the 24 hours Torn gave him to remove the galleries.

Cut Torn a break, he's not an ass. ;)

Thumb TGPS that skim are here to stay and a huge part of sponsors making money. Be real! Call it CJ or whatever you want but they send valid customers to the hosted galleries that do buy memberships.

[Tommy]

Originally posted by Ramster
Torn DIDN'T shut the guy down. He asked the guy to remove the content by emailing him and emailing his host.

ohh I didnt know that. That changes things a bit

I am sorry I should have read the thread better

[Greenguy]

Originally posted by Tommy
Can a sponsor tell you that you cant have consoles on your site
or use toolbars or even spyware. Can they cancel you because they dont like your advertising methods..... Buy an email list & then spam a sponsor's site & see how fast you get terminated :D

[Jim]

Originally posted by Greenguy
Buy an email list & then spam a sponsor's site & see how fast you get terminated :D

Only if the sponsor get's a lot of complaints. Otherwise, with most sponsors...the advertiser is golden.

[Tommy]

Please........... we all know nobody get terminated for spaming

[crockett]

Originally posted by Ramster
Torn DIDN'T shut the guy down. He asked the guy to remove the content by emailing him and emailing his host. That's it. His host shut him down so he needs to deal with the host by not giving him the 24 hours Torn gave him to remove the galleries.

Cut Torn a break, he's not an ass. ;)

Thumb TGPS that skim are here to stay and a huge part of sponsors making money. Be real! Call it CJ or whatever you want but they send valid customers to the hosted galleries that do buy memberships.

well I know my personal 1st post might have been a bit to strong on the issue and I do believe Thorn has every right in the world to dictate how his content is being used. However the facts I was pointing out is it's general knowledge that TGP's use these kinds of methods to gain traffic and most of us do not conceder it cheating. So I personally think if he didn't want traffic from sites that skim, it should be clearly stated in a TOS. I think most of this drama comes from people that either don't agree with traffic trading or just don't understand it's benefits.

I personally took offense to someone being called a called or implied a cheater simply because I conduct the same sort of traffic trading techniques and I in no way conceder myself a cheater. I typically stay away from pop up's but in all honestly adult webmasters have become far too nice to surfers in not having pop ups on their sites and so on. Pop up's still seem to be a very accepted means of making money in mainstream sites so why not still in adult? Of course I'm not talking pop up hells but 1 pop up or a exit console never hurt anyone IMO.

As far as the toolbar install goes I think koot explained it was from the free host. I tend to believe him being I've seen it happen a few times coming from free hosts or free counters such as porngraph.

[tgpguy]

Originally posted by Jim
I agree with you almost 100%. If I was the sponsor in question, I would be happy to let anyone do anything they wanted with content I "gave away". To me...it's just good business. I have had the same feelings since the very beginning and don't think they will ever change.

But, if you look at Torn's first post, you will see that one of the problems is the content was being used" to help install whatever crap he is trying to install." I believe that would be "the damn "xxx toolbar"" that you mention or something just as bad. Would I go out policing my content to make sure it wasn't being used for that...No. But, if I stumbled on someone using my content to install something, I think I would be pissed off. I would have written to the advertiser and asked him to stop. I would not have gotten any host involved until I was sure that didn't work. And I would not have terminated the advertiser's account. But, that's just me. I also believe that if you are going to "give away" content and you have rules about using it, you should make sure they are posted clearly.

Until GreenguyandJim, I did nothing but run and market affiliate programs. I believe that is why my thoughts on this subject differ so much from the other regulars on GreenguyandJim. I have always been about the business of making money for the affiliate program. I don't think you will see sponsors coming out of the woodwork saying they would allow this type of thing. Just as you will not see sponsors saying they allow email spamming. But, most of them do. That's just the way it is.

Torn, you and I should really sit down and talk in Florida :)

Jim,

You are absolutely right 100%..........but this thread has taken on a life of it's own. I think it departed from the original intent about reply number 3. If I was a sponsor offering content for surfers I would be highly pissed. Nasty Dollars has people on staff to ensure that their content is not "stolen" or used in any way not in accordance with their TOS. Skimming is not a good thing at all, as a matter of fact I dislike it immensly, but it serves it's purpose in that if you strike a balance your site can grow in size and get bookmarks. I think most will agree that this is simply a collision of two different "worlds" within the online adult community. And at the end of the day GG would be able to step into the TGP game and have a lot easier time at it than I would have stepping into the link list game, it is all about traffic and sellingn |bananna|

[tgpguy]

And on the other hand, I think Torn is well on his way to learning a valuable lesson in this biz wether he knows it or not............Just a damn shame it is going to eat up an entire sector of the market to teach him that lesson |sad|

I wish him the best as I don't think he would have wanted it to happen that way. As a matter of fact I would be willing to bet you that a ton of the TGP webmasters are looking at his site and having a good look at the content so they can recognize it at a glance and swiftly decline any gallery or sponsor link submitted to them promoting his stuff........indeed it is sad |sad|

[rowan]

Originally posted by Meadint
Rowan, the issue is not about posting thumbs of other peoples images. That is toltally legal ... as long as the thumbnail is linked to the actual image (gallery). The problem here is the skimming: That a certain percentage of the clicks will go to something else than the image (gallery). There has been no ruling about that by any court as far as I know.

I agree with Greenguy and Torn that it is probably technical illegal to post thumbnails on a thumb tgp that skims a certain percentage of traffic to trades. I don't really see why Torn should put in his T&C that use of his images on a skimming thumb tgp is not allowed, when it is probably technically illegal according to the copyright legislation.

I may be wrong, but I don't recall seeing anything in that ruling saying "thumbnails are fine so long as they link to the original content" ... it just says that using thumbnails does not violate copyright.

[rowan]

http://www.katcash.com/htm/content.htm

Every link I try off this page goes to a 404 redirect with a couple of pops.

What were we saying about stealing traffic? :) :)

[Torn Rose]

Thanks rowan for pointing this bug out. I made all my galleries and take full responsibility. They worked for me when I read your post but not for my wife, and thanks to good timing my best friend came over 2 mins later and being the script wiz that he is it took us 5 mins to find what the issue was.

<script language="JavaScript">

<!--
var g_Browser = navigator.appName;

if (g_Browser == "Netscape")
self.location.replace("1.wmv");
//-->
</script>

This is somehow included in my hosted movies, maybe due to the embedded videos, I’m not sure. Try them in IE and then let me know if they work.

Unfortunately we are on out way out the door and I will fix this bug as soon as I can.

[Bangwang]

For The Record:

Silvercash has no problem with links to our hosted galleries from a thumb of our content, having a percentage of clicks redirected for tgp traffic trades.

Why would we???


If you have a question... E me..

bangwang @ silver.......



Richard
3688149

[Jim]

Bangwang
Good to see you, welcome to GreenguyandJim.

[Greenguy]

Hey Bangwang |waves|

Man, this thread is bring people out of the woodwork!

[Cleo]

Originally posted by Torn
Thanks rowan for pointing this bug out. I made all my galleries and take full responsibility. They worked for me when I read your post but not for my wife, and thanks to good timing my best friend came over 2 mins later and being the script wiz that he is it took us 5 mins to find what the issue was.

<script language="JavaScript">

<!--
var g_Browser = navigator.appName;

if (g_Browser == "Netscape")
self.location.replace("1.wmv");
//-->
</script>

This is somehow included in my hosted movies, maybe due to the embedded videos, I’m not sure. Try them in IE and then let me know if they work.

Unfortunately we are on out way out the door and I will fix this bug as soon as I can.
I didn't add your stuff in because of this. I don't use IE and as soon as I got a 404 I stopped looking at them. Been meaning to mention it to you but kept on forgetting.

[Bangwang]

Hey Jim ... Hey Mark


I'm just a board luker :)



See you in Hollywood?

[Mike]

Originally posted by Bangwang
For The Record:

Silvercash has no problem with links to our hosted galleries from a thumb of our content, having a percentage of clicks redirected for tgp traffic trades.

Why would we???

If you have a question... E me..

bangwang @ silver.......

Richard
3688149

Bangwang,

Sounds good to me... I was pretty sure you were gonna say that thou.
I'll keep loading my traffic off in your face then :)

[Greenguy]

Originally posted by Bangwang
See you in Hollywood? Yes, Jim & I will both be there :)

[LadyMischief]

Originally posted by tgpguy
Jim,

You are absolutely right 100%..........but this thread has taken on a life of it's own. I think it departed from the original intent about reply number 3. If I was a sponsor offering content for surfers I would be highly pissed. Nasty Dollars has people on staff to ensure that their content is not "stolen" or used in any way not in accordance with their TOS. Skimming is not a good thing at all, as a matter of fact I dislike it immensly, but it serves it's purpose in that if you strike a balance your site can grow in size and get bookmarks. I think most will agree that this is simply a collision of two different "worlds" within the online adult community. And at the end of the day GG would be able to step into the TGP game and have a lot easier time at it than I would have stepping into the link list game, it is all about traffic and sellingn |bananna|

Funny, last time I saw, Nastydollar's TGP's skimmed too ;)

[KCat]

Wow! I love Torn & Kat, but this is nuts!

From a gallery submitter perspective:


There isn't a single no-skim thumb TGP that I submit to.

That means that 6 or 7 or 8 times out of 10, Kat's thumb would go to the gallery I submitted. The remainder would go to the TGP's trades. So...

If I built a gallery out of Kat's free content & submitted to my list, would:

I have my affiliate account deleted?

My partner accounts be getting C&Ds?

[Useless]

On a more positive note - look at all of the brand spanking new board members this thread dragged in.
|lightsabe

[Stouch]

Originally posted by KCat
Wow! I love Torn & Kat, but this is nuts!

From a gallery submitter perspective:


There isn't a single no-skim thumb TGP that I submit to.

That means that 6 or 7 or 8 times out of 10, Kat's thumb would go to the gallery I submitted. The remainder would go to the TGP's trades. So...

If I built a gallery out of Kat's free content & submitted to my list, would:

I have my affiliate account deleted?

My partner accounts be getting C&Ds?

Thats what I wanted to know...

[LadyMischief]

Originally posted by KCat
Wow! I love Torn & Kat, but this is nuts!

From a gallery submitter perspective:


There isn't a single no-skim thumb TGP that I submit to.

That means that 6 or 7 or 8 times out of 10, Kat's thumb would go to the gallery I submitted. The remainder would go to the TGP's trades. So...

If I built a gallery out of Kat's free content & submitted to my list, would:

I have my affiliate account deleted?

My partner accounts be getting C&Ds?

Dealing with the volume of this kind of stuff that I do, I would just say "screw it" to any sponsor that might give me trouble.. My partner accounts are valuable to me, and having one program going around causing unneccessary bullshit with the tgp owners that I've built a relationship with over a long period of time would be... Absolutely infuriating. No way in hell would I promote a sponsor like that.. I can understand protecting your content and wanting to make the most out of each hit, but tgp traffic can be valuable (I should know), and for them to try to dictate what the tgp owners can do, directly or indirectly, is absolutely ridiculous.

[justmyopinion]

Everybody who is running an affiliate program (including Torn) should listen to the advice Jim gave by telling what he would have done in a similar situation:

Originally posted by Jim

I would have written to the advertiser and asked him to stop. I would not have gotten any host involved until I was sure that didn't work. And I would not have terminated the advertiser's account. But, that's just me. I also believe that if you are going to "give away" content and you have rules about using it, you should make sure they are posted clearly.


Listening to Jim's advice will save affiliate programs and affiliates from a lot of unnecessary drama.

[justmyopinion]

Torn,

You have made many mistakes each of which will probably cost you affiliates:

1.
You sent a C&D to your affiliate's host without giving your affiliate time to respond to your complaint.

2.a
You ran to a board to complain about an affiliate without giving your affiliate time to respond to your complaint.
2.b.
You posted your affiliate's whois info and domains on a board called possible cheaters and implied that he is a cheater whose account you already terminated and telling that you wrote a C&D to him and to his host.
Again without giving your affiliate time to respond to your complaint.

3.
You posted your affiliate's private email address and home address on a board.
(this isn't much of a tragedy in this case since Kloot had his home address listed in his domains whois info but about 50% of webmasters don't have their home address in their whois information - including Torn aka PO Box 8xxx - and I think Torn wouldn't be happy if I started posting his home address on message boards.)

4.You were insulting and abusive towards your affiliate by calling him "little piss ant".


These 4 acts by you made sure that I will NEVER touch your program.
I suspect that many other affiliates don't want to see this kind of behaviour from affiliate programs.

Tips for affiliate programs:
Do NOT use boards as the first stop for solving problems (this applies also to affiliates).
Respect your affiliates privacy.(this applies also to affiliates).
Act respectfully towards your affiliates and other people (this applies also to affiliates).
Do NOT make rash decisions in the heat of the moment (this applies also to affiliates).


You will be forever infamous as the clueless program owner who didn't get skimming and tgps but to me you will be just another example of a person who runs to the boards, makes rash decisions, doesn't care about their affiliate's privacy and acts abusively.

Good luck with the path you have chosen.


-justmyopinion

[LadyMischief]

Originally posted by justmyopinion
Torn,

You have made many mistakes each of which will probably cost you affiliates:

1.
You sent a C&D to your affiliate's host without giving your affiliate time to respond to your complaint.

2.a
You ran to a board to complain about an affiliate without giving your affiliate time to respond to your complaint.
2.b.
You posted your affiliate's whois info and domains on a board called possible cheaters and implied that he is a cheater whose account you already terminated and telling that you wrote a C&D to him and to his host.
Again without giving your affiliate time to respond to your complaint.

3.
You posted your affiliate's private email address and home address on a board.
(this isn't much of a tragedy in this case since Kloot had his home address listed in his domains whois info but about 50% of webmasters don't have their home address in their whois information - including Torn aka PO Box 8xxx - and I think Torn wouldn't be happy if I started posting his home address on message boards.)

4.You were insulting and abusive towards your affiliate by calling him "little piss ant".


These 4 acts by you made sure that I will NEVER touch your program.
I suspect that many other affiliates don't want to see this kind of behaviour from affiliate programs.

Tips for affiliate programs:
Do NOT use boards as the first stop for solving problems (this applies also to affiliates).
Respect your affiliates privacy.(this applies also to affiliates).
Act respectfully towards your affiliates and other people (this applies also to affiliates).
Do NOT make rash decisions in the heat of the moment (this applies also to affiliates).


You will be forever infamous as the clueless program owner who didn't get skimming and tgps but to me you will be just another example of a person who runs to the boards, makes rash decisions, doesn't care about their affiliate's privacy and acts abusively.

Good luck with the path you have chosen.


-justmyopinion

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Bill]

Leaving aside the question of the skim, which I never found very interesting personally...

Everybody thinks it's just peachy that this kloot character was autodownloading something that set off virus warnings, then?

All of Kloots trades think it's just fine that Kloots thumbtgp was apparently downloading some kind of exploit?

I know, I know, the only proof that's left is Torn's claim, but is it your position that Kloot was innocent of any wrongdoing?

Who's trading with Kloot? What was the url of this innocent thumbtgp?

[crockett]

Originally posted by Bill
Leaving aside the question of the skim, which I never found very interesting personally...

Everybody thinks it's just peachy that this kloot character was autodownloading something that set off virus warnings, then?

All of Kloots trades think it's just fine that Kloots thumbtgp was apparently downloading some kind of exploit?

I know, I know, the only proof that's left is Torn's claim, but is it your position that Kloot was innocent of any wrongdoing?

Who's trading with Kloot? What was the url of this innocent thumbtgp?

It seems you didn't read the whole topic.. the exploit was coming from the free host not koot.. but he did have the pop up which is not a big deal IMO. I don't know if you ever used porngraph counter but they did the same thing and started auto installing toolbars via their counter and killed a great service.

[Bill]

I read the whole post. So you're telling me that Kloot never once visited his own site and noticed that his oh-so-mysterious freehost was downloading exploits on him?

Or maybe the "freehost" started it just minutes before Torn checked the link?

Blaming it on the freehost is the oldest fucking trick in the book.

I know all about porngraph. So, are you claiming he still had a porngragh counter on there and that was the source of the exploit? (I know you're not, you are using it as an example. And anybody who was dumb enough to still have a pg counter downloading toolbars off his siite months after it was discovered and discussed on every fucking board in existence deserves no sympathy.)

Who was the freehost owner? Let's ask him about his exploit autodownloading freehost. What's the evidence that the malware was from the freehost?

Who are Kloots trades? Is it any surprise none of them have spoken up?

[tgpguy]

Originally posted by LadyMischief
Funny, last time I saw, Nastydollar's TGP's skimmed too ;)

I bet they do, I am talking about "really" stealing the content and not just "skimming" |peace|

[justsexxx]

I think the problem here is that some paysite owners lost the reality woth how tgp's work nowadays.

Of course, when our thumbs do lead to autodialers/install and other sponsor, we will complain. But just a do a little more research. Most TGP's skim traffic, and sometimes THOSE trades add autodialing shit etc. It's not that the affiliate link directly to that.

When you don't want that your content is used for skimming, you should add that explicit in the terms, and FHG area, since it's a common way of doing business nowadays. That's what I mean with keep up to date.

Also I doubt if you saw such thumb on teeniefiles, madthumbs you had acted the same way.

Andre

[sixzeros]

Sixzeros of Comus Thumbs TGP script here.

I just want to say.. the Comus Thumbs network is getting bigger, somewhere around 10mil to 15mil surfers a day.

99.999% of them are skimming to trades.

99.999% of them are running hosted galleries.

If you dont want to be on the Comus network, then get a message to me, and let me know your domain, I can make sure you get purged.

I think most sponsors would rather that I added them though?

[KCat]

Originally posted by Bill
Leaving aside the question of the skim, which I never found very interesting personally...

Everybody thinks it's just peachy that this kloot character was autodownloading something that set off virus warnings, then?



It's not peachy, it's just not relevant.

Obviously Torn doesn't want his site & his wife's image associated with a site using trojans or exploits. That's a no brainer. If that was the only reason he'd turfed the account, this thread would've ended on page 1.

What *is* relevant is how a "NO using free content or FHGs on TGPs with skims" policy affects honest, hardworking webmasters. There needs to be a clear list of sponsors who won't allow this.

[Bill]

I see your point of view Kcat, but I see things as being exactly opposite. I think the skim is irrelevant, and the exploit is the issue.

Torn didn't know about the skim. It may come as a shock to some TGP people, but there's a lot of adult biz that doesn't know the details of forced trading.

But his first point, and his first reaction, was to the autodownloaded exploit. Then he meets the skim, which he doesn't know, and gets doubly pissed.

But the real crime here is the autodownloaded exploit. How many thousands of dollars have been spent by just the people reading this dealing with exploit infected computers? And it's not the email viruses that are fucking us, nobody here is that dumb, it's the scumware and toolbars and malicious dialers autodownloaded and deceitfully downloaded.

Now Torn knows about the skim, and this will cause sponsors everywhere to clarify their policies. That's good. The skim was never threatened.

But these fucking exploit downloaders are daily fucking every single one of us out of money, if you'll excuse my language.

[Alphawolf]

Sorry to break into the meaningful conversation...

I read this thread and the gfy thread.

Found it pretty interesting reading- not having a clue about TGP's.

There's no school for adult, so whatever one learns off boards is taken as the way to do things.

...until you read otherwise or see people in real life and chat about it.

[Stouch]

Bill, the use of exploits/dialers have nothing to do with copyright infringement or any other gripe Torn may have. That is (or theoretically is) Kloots business decision. Torn can climb as many walls or beat up as many small people as he likes over hitting a page with a dialer ~ but it aint illegal in the context of his gripe with Kloot.

The use of his pics to build a TGP is his gripe...

If Kloot had been forcing trades via a textlink as opposed to a thumbpic taken from his promo material, then this whole situation wouldnt have arisen, dialer or no dialer.

[Bill]

i can't be sure what was in Torn's mind, but I agree copyright infringement is the tool, the legal weapon that makes this case so interesting.

However, this situation has multiple parts. Torn is within his rights to send a copyright warning to the host. We don't have to agree with it, but he has the legal right to do it.

Then, the host owner came here and said "Hey, wasn't us that shut kloot down, we just passed on the message". But because Kloot WAS shut down by someone, it makes a big splash, because it's such a dramatic example of the power of copyright infringement claims as a weapon.

But, it turns out it's Kloots "friend", the freehost owner, who shut him down, not Torn. Torn was as surprised as anybody that the guy was shut down so hard.

So, it's not really Torn who has gutted Kloot, it's Kloots friend, who is also presumably the one who installed the 3 autodownloading "somethings" that tripped Torn's norton.

Does Torn have the absolute legal authority to say "You can't use my content in the skim.". Clearly, YES. Is it a good business decision if you want to be used on TGPs? Probably not but who the fuck knows? TGP owners may think the world revolves around that traffic but it don't mean he couldn't make plenty without TGP traffic.

It was said earlier, this debate wouldn't have lasted a page if it had just been about autodialers, but that is what it's about.

It's an unintended side effect that the copyright threat was enough to scare Kloots cheating "freehost" "friend" into shutting down his crime operation loading toolbars onto the stream of TGP traffic.

[justmyopinion]

I'm reposting this advice by Jim in the hope that more people would learn to act professionally:

Everybody who is running an affiliate program (including Torn) should listen to the advice Jim gave by telling what he would have done in a similar situation:

Originally posted by Jim

I would have written to the advertiser and asked him to stop. I would not have gotten any host involved until I was sure that didn't work. And I would not have terminated the advertiser's account. But, that's just me. I also believe that if you are going to "give away" content and you have rules about using it, you should make sure they are posted clearly.

[KCat]

Originally posted by Bill
I see your point of view Kcat, but I see things as being exactly opposite. I think the skim is irrelevant, and the exploit is the issue.

The skim is relevant to me because I submit to TGPs that skim.

The exploit is irrelevant to me because it's obviously wrong/cheating & I don't cheat, use exploits, dialers etc. etc. Doesn't apply to me.

If this was just a thread about another webmaster who's got dodgy shit on his site, I'd file it under list of sites to blacklist. End of story. But considering the skim "cheating" is a major issue affecting a lot of honest webmasters. Does that make more sense?

[justmyopinion]

I can understand Torn being pissed if he thought he was being cheated because he didn't understand skimming.

I can understand Torn being pissed at the exploits the freehost was trying to install.

BUT BEING PISSED DOES NOT GIVE A PERSON THE RIGHT TO ACT ABUSIVELY!

Being pissed does NOT excuse this kind of BAD behaviour:
running to the boards, posting affiliate's private information, sending a C&D to the affiliates host, calling their affiliate "little piss ant", and deleting the affiliates account - Doing all this WITHOUT first giving the affiliate time to respond to the complaint.


Torn's mistakes:

1.
He sent a C&D to his affiliate's host without giving his affiliate time to respond to the complaint.

2.a
He ran to a board to complain about an affiliate without giving his affiliate time to respond to the complaint.
2.b.
He posted his affiliate's whois info and domains on a board called possible cheaters and implied that the affiliate is a cheater whose account he already terminated and telling that he wrote a C&D to the affiliate and to their host.
Again without giving his affiliate time to respond to the complaint.

3.
He posted his affiliate's private email address and home address on a board.
(this isn't much of a tragedy in this case since Kloot had his home address listed in his domains whois info but about 50% of webmasters don't have their home address in their whois information - including Torn aka PO Box 8xxx - and I think Torn wouldn't be happy if I started posting his home address on message boards.)

4.He was insulting and abusive towards his affiliate by calling him "little piss ant".


Do you want to join an affiliate program who treats their affiliates like Torn?

[justmyopinion]

Here is a hypothetical situation:

What if Kcat was promoting katcash through a gallery she submitted to a skimming tgp and Torn would find it.

If Torn would have acted the same way as he acted towards Kloot:

Torn would have written a thread in a possible cheaters forum where he called Kcat a "little piss ant" and informed that he had just terminated Kcat's account and sent a C&D to Kcat and to her host.
Torn would also post Kcat's domains and information to make sure that this implied cheater is known and her reputation is ruined.
Then Torn would proceed to post the private email address and home address of Kcat.


Does anybody else but me see this kind of behaviour by Torn as WRONG?

[urb]

Here is another hypothetical situation:

What if you owned a TGP with a logo which is your trademark or brand and you provided it for use by webmasters as a recip 120x60.

It's your logo, your reputation and your copyright.

Then you find that this logo is being linked to malware and other sites which have nothing to do with you every 1 click out of 4 (or whatever ratio).

Do you think that a surfer will click on your logo ever again? How many surfers will never want to visit your TGP again?

I agree that skimming is a traffic building activity etc... but as Bill said, the adult World does not just revolve around skimming TGPs.

I agree that the timing of this incident is unfortunate, but I bet ya kloot would still be online if he hadn't used a free host.

[Tommy]

Originally posted by Bill

Torn didn't know about the skim. It may come as a shock to some TGP people, but there's a lot of adult biz that doesn't know the details of forced trading.


ya see to me this is a big problem. If torn doesnt know how tgps work then he shouldnt be offering hosted gallerys. To offer out hosted gallerys and then say well..... I didnt know tgps worked like that and this is copyright infirdgment. See that makes Torn an idiot (No offence)

This I would like anwsered ......suppose I had a thumb tgp that took submits and that tgp skimed, ... follow me so far ?......
someone premoting torns program submits a gallery with his content that he gave out to his partners, Now I guess Torn is gonna start sending Dmca notices to MY host ????????

If you look at Torns actions it makes all of his content unlinkable

the toolbar is really irrelevant,

[Ghost&Lliandrin]

Originally posted by Tommy
This I would like anwsered ......suppose I had a thumb tgp that took submits and that tgp skimed, ... follow me so far ?......
someone premoting torns program submits a gallery with his content that he gave out to his partners, Now I guess Torn is gonna start sending Dmca notices to MY host ????????

If you look at Torns actions it makes all of his content unlinkable

the toolbar is really irrelevant,

As a newbie who has been looking into starting a skimming thumb TGP I would really like to see this answered. It would have very far reaching implications if TGP owners would be forced to police Torn's affiliate program. Especially when you add in DD's (not sure what affiliate program that is) as he has stated that he does not want his content used this way, and the hundreds more that could at any second change their minds on the issue.

The only other thing that concerns me is the lack of a TOS on Torns site. As a newbie if there are no terms stating how a sponsor does or does not want their site promoted, I would have to assume that standard practices would be acceptable.~Ghost

This opinion is not the view of my lovely wife Lliandrin |smooch|

[Useless]

I've read every post in this thread and one thing really stands out. Many of you are too busy insulting each other to really argue your point. Yes, I realize that Torn started this thread with 'little piss ant', and while I'm not defending that, I at least understand his response to the situation as he percieved it to be. He, as the producer is going to have the last word pertaining to how his content is used. Just because his terms of use did not address the use of his content on skimming TGPs does not mean he's unjustified now. There are always going to be unforeseen circumstances and that's why TOU are always evolving. He did not know that the current trend in TGPs is traffic skimming. That does not make him an idiot. Uninformed perhaps, but not an idiot.

I wonder how many of you know every single aspect of the complete realm of the adult industry. If Torn informed you that for every new signup at his paysite, a puppy has to die, you'd be shocked, wouldn't you? (Yes, a ridiculous example, but stay with me here) Well, for him, it was somewhat shocking to find out that a great many TGPs now handle traffic in what has historically been considered a cheating manner. This new model sends the surfer to a location not promised by the link they clicked. That's not horribly honest, is it? Just because there happens to be hundreds, perhaps thousands, of TGPs doing this, does not convert dishonesty into honesty. I too use a trade script on two TGPs. One skims with 90% going the gallery, 10% to trades. The other only uses the script to monitor traffic and build a toplist. No skimming. So yes, I too skim on one of my sites. But I am not about to defend the practice or paint it as a wonderful business model.

In the end, I doubt Torn is worried about losing an affiliate who serves his sites from a free host or one who skims so heavily that the surfer is never going to see the sponsor gallery anyway. The only thing that will result from this thread is a lot of sore feelings. If part of your argument is an insulting attack on the other party, then it is not an argument at all, it is a battle.

We adult webmasters have many more worries of greater import looming on the not-so-distant horizon. Shall we focus on them, or continue this pissing match?

[justmyopinion]

Originally posted by Useless Warrior
I've read every post in this thread and one thing really stands out. Many of you are too busy insulting each other to really argue your point. Yes, I realize that Torn started this thread with 'little piss ant', and while I'm not defending that, I at least understand his response to the situation as he percieved it to be. He, as the producer is going to have the last word pertaining to how his content is used. Just because his terms of use did not address the use of his content on skimming TGPs does not mean he's unjustified now. There are always going to be unforeseen circumstances and that's why TOU are always evolving. He did not know that the current trend in TGPs is traffic skimming. That does not make him an idiot. Uninformed perhaps, but not an idiot.


UW,

I haven't insulted Torn, I'm just shocked at the way Torn acted and I'm even more shocked that many people here seem to think that this kind of behaviour is OK.

Who in here thinks that the way Torn acted is the right way to act in this kind of a situation?

(I seriously would like to know this so I can avoid people who think it is OK to act abusively)

[Tommy]

Ya know what, I shouldnt have called him an idiot

that was wrong and I am sorry.

For some reason this topic really sets me off.

[justmyopinion]

Originally posted by Tommy

This I would like anwsered ......suppose I had a thumb tgp that took submits and that tgp skimed, ... follow me so far ?......

someone premoting torns program submits a gallery with his content that he gave out to his partners, Now I guess Torn is gonna start sending Dmca notices to MY host ????????

If you look at Torns actions it makes all of his content unlinkable


What I have seen from Torn so far makes me pretty sure that he would send DMCA notice to your host, he would also post all your information (home address,private email address, all your domains etc.) he had to message boards and imply strongly that you are an evil cheater, he would also call you abusive names and try to ruin your business and reputation.


<sarcasm>
If only more people would act like Torn the world would be a better place.
</sarcasm>

[justmyopinion]

Originally posted by Tommy
Ya know what, I shouldnt have called him an idiot

that was wrong and I am sorry.

For some reason this topic really sets me off.

This post made me happy.
Thank You.

[justmyopinion]

Originally posted by Ghost&Lliandrin
It would have very far reaching implications if TGP owners would be forced to police Torn's affiliate program. Especially when you add in DD's (not sure what affiliate program that is) as he has stated that he does not want his content used this way, and the hundreds more that could at any second change their minds on the issue.

The only other thing that concerns me is the lack of a TOS on Torns site. As a newbie if there are no terms stating how a sponsor does or does not want their site promoted, I would have to assume that standard practices would be acceptable.~Ghost


I'm wondering:

Did Torn and DangerDave fully realize the implications of their view on skimming?

They have made all thumb tgps unable to use their free hosted galleries but they have also made all thumb tgps as content police for their programs.

If a submitter submits a gallery made using free content provided by either of these programs the tgp owner is in hot water if he lists this gallery.
The TGP owner and their host would no doubt receive a C&D for listing either sponsors gallery.

If a tgp would receive a C&D because listing a submitters gallery that submitter would not get their galleries listed at that tgp anymore.

In order to protect themselves all thumb tgps have to blacklist both katcash/katvixen and dangerdave's program(s) and all other programs who have a similar view.

[Bill]

Originally posted by Tommy
If torn doesnt know how tgps work then he shouldnt be offering hosted gallerys.

Tommy, this is a solid point, and I personally agree with it 100%.

In my personal opinion, Torn made a bonehead move getting pissed about the skim. I'd bet money Torn is kicking himself right now, altho he may not yet fully understand the skim, and like a lot of people, he may still think it's just CJ under another name, which arguably it is, despite the fact that everyone does it, and you can't have modern TGPs without it.

This I would like anwsered ......suppose I had a thumb tgp that took submits and that tgp skimed, ... follow me so far ?...... someone premoting torns program submits a gallery with his content that he gave out to his partners, Now I guess Torn is gonna start sending Dmca notices to MY host ????????

DMCA attacks threaten everybody. It's a dangerous weapon.

We can't know the answer to this. The frightening thing is that Torn may have the legal right to do just what you you give as an example. But so does every other copyright holder in existence. This is the danger of DMCA.

Hosts need to step up and tell us how they are going to protect us from DMCA attacks, because this is not the last time we are going to hear about this.

If you look at Torns actions it makes all of his content unlinkable

Abso-fucking-lutely! Untill Torn clarifies his policy in public and in writing you would have to be an idiot to put his content on a gallery or a TGP. (Except maybe for the 5 or 10 TGPs like Richards that don't skim.)

You and I might think it's crazy for him to say "you can't use my content for skimming TGPs.". But it's his content, his decision, and he has to make it. If he decides for no skim, we might think it's dumb, but the only thing we have to say about it at that point is "yes, I'll follow your terms...". or "no, I won't promote your ridiculous program".

the toolbar is really irrelevant,

And on this point I DISAGREE 100%. The toolbar was the first criminal act that started the whole thing. AND the toolbar was the real cause of Kloot's getting shut down.

Remember, the advancedhosting guy came here and said, "We didn't delete his site...".

We can't know yet what a real host would do faced with this same situation, because kloot was hosted by a theif.

(hopefully these quotes work the way I want them too.)

[Tommy]

Bill look at this


Originally posted by Torn
um.... English please DD =o)

I've no idea what you mean; I'm not that savvy on this sort of thing. Just tell me who's balls do I need to crush?
|slice

He dont know whats goin on but hes ready to send out dmca notices


You and I might think it's crazy for him to say "you can't use my content for skimming TGPs.". But it's his content, his decision, and he has to make it. If he decides for no skim, we might think it's dumb, but the only thing we have to say about it at that point is "yes, I'll follow your terms...". or "no, I won't promote your ridiculous program".


but when kloot put up the galleries there were no terms and there were no restrictions
Torn made up those terms after the fact .....
he made those terms up 30 or seconds before he sent that dmca notice to Kloots host

also 24 hours to remove something is not a resonable amout of time

I went to another board and was reading up on this. A board where kloot hangs out, He seems to be one of the regulars at the board, seems to be well liked and is treated with respect

I also took and good HARD look at his submits at Tommys. I feel have a GOOD DEPENDABLE way of figuring out who is a cheat and who isnt and Kloot passed easley

[LadyMischief]

Originally posted by justmyopinion
I'm wondering:

Did Torn and DangerDave fully realize the implications of their view on skimming?

They have made all thumb tgps unable to use their free hosted galleries but they have also made all thumb tgps as content police for their programs.

If a submitter submits a gallery made using free content provided by either of these programs the tgp owner is in hot water if he lists this gallery.
The TGP owner and their host would no doubt receive a C&D for listing either sponsors gallery.

If a tgp would receive a C&D because listing a submitters gallery that submitter would not get their galleries listed at that tgp anymore.

In order to protect themselves all thumb tgps have to blacklist both katcash/katvixen and dangerdave's program(s) and all other programs who have a similar view.

I'm pretty sure this has already happened, as there are more people reading this thread than are posting in it.. I have a feeling that there are a lot of gallery listings being pulled, too.

[LadyMischief]

Originally posted by Tommy
Bill look at this




He dont know whats goin on but hes ready to send out dmca notices





but when kloot put up the galleries there were no terms and there were no restrictions
Torn made up those terms after the fact .....
he made those terms up 30 or seconds before he sent that dmca notice to Kloots host

also 24 hours to remove something is not a resonable amout of time

I went to another board and was reading up on this. A board where kloot hangs out, He seems to be one of the regulars at the board, seems to be well liked and is treated with respect

I also took and good HARD look at his submits at Tommys. I feel have a GOOD DEPENDABLE way of figuring out who is a cheat and who isnt and Kloot passed easley

This should be a lesson to smaller program owners. Yes, you have every right to protect and control your copyrighted material in every way you feel neccessary, however outlining acceptable uses in Terms of Service is ABSOLUTELY NECCESSARY, otherwise how are people supposed to know what's acceptable or not? Telekenesis?

[Bill]

I'd like to throw in one quick point.

It's not Dave's program. DangerDave seperated from Outback Cash a while back. So don't call it Dave's program.

Dave's a very strict old-fashioned webmaster. I think that according to his principles, the skim is just another name for circlejerk, and it's a ripoff.

But, don't call it DD's program, that's incorrect.

[KCat]

Good thing us folks not going to FL had something to do while everybody else is gone! LOL

The problem with this thread is there are too many issues, so we're all debating different things. And Torn is gonna have a long read when he gets back. ;)

Item A - The Skim vs. Promotional Content

Item B - The exploit/toolbar crap. Was it on his site or one of his trades?
(Kloot's fault either way, IMO. Who you trade with is still YOUR responsibility to police.)

Item C - Were Torn's actions a little rash?



In future posts, please clarify which Item you're discussing. |jester|

[Bill]

Originally posted by Tommy
Bill look at this... He dont know whats goin on but hes ready to send out dmca notices
Tommy, I agree with what I think is your main point, which is that Torn shouldn't have been offering hosted galleries if he didn't understand TGP and how they would be used.

In my personal opinion, Torn made several BIG DUMB mistakes. He's going to pay for those mistakes, and he and other sponsors are going to have to clarify their terms because of this.

I don't know Torn, and I don't promote his program. I don't approve of what he did, how he handled the problem.

But I UNDERSTAND what he did. He thought he found a new affiliate using his content for criminal purposes.

He over-reacted. You and I can see that. But he thought he was just defending himself.

It was an unintended consequence that Kloot got deleted so quickly. If he hadn't been hosted on a criminal freehost he would almost certainly still be in business today.

I haven't read Torn's Terms and Conditions, I have no idea what they allow. I agree Torn over-reacted, and went to the cheater board and the DMCA attack too quickly.

But put yourself in his shoes for a second. You check on a new affiliate and the guy's page gives you THREE virus alarms. I think you'd be dammed pissed too. I know I would be.

Then it's Torn's bad luck that on top of the toolbars, he doesn't happen to know about the skim, so he thinks he's being ripped off by a double cheater.

And that starts this whole comedy of errors in motion.

I also took and good HARD look at his submits at Tommys. I feel have a GOOD DEPENDABLE way of figuring out who is a cheat and who isnt and Kloot passed easley
Tommy, I know your system is possibly the best there is, so that's a solid gold endorsement. If I implied that Kloot was responsible for the toolbars, I apologize, based on your endorsement.

It doesn't explain quite why Kloot didn't know his page was autodownloading. Of course I got lots of pages I haven't checked in months myself. Maybe Kloot had a cookie that kept the page from downloading to him.

And, I want to acknowledge again that we only have Torn's word that the page was trying to infect him. Torn might have been mistaken.

I expect Torn will speak up soon to clarify his terms and his actions.

[Tommy]

I am not endorsing Kloot and please dont applogize for anything.
I hope I was not to pushy

when you think about this, do you know how far this can reach


anyway I am gonna keep my comments to myself from now on

[Bill]

Originally posted by KCat
Good thing us folks not going to FL had something to do while everybody else is gone! LOL

It is kind of a fun argument, except maybe for poor Kloot and Torn. ;-}

However, Kloot can presumably start his TGP up immediately on a real host that won't mysteriously dissappear. His actual losses should be fairly small. Presumably his trades will forgive him for getting involved with what appears to be a cheating freehost.

Torn's losses could be substantially larger.

People sure got upset.

[Tommy]

it is a fun argument,

and you make great points

btw KCat I use your gallerys on a thumb tgp, I am sure you know that though

[KCat]

Originally posted by Tommy
btw KCat I use your gallerys on a thumb tgp, I am sure you know that though

You can use 'em wherever you like, babe! :)

[DangerDave]

Jesus, if you guys are gonna drag this thing on into the next milenium, at least GET IT RIGHT!


Originally posted by Torn
um.... English please DD =o)
I've no idea what you mean; I'm not that savvy on this sort of thing. Just tell me who's balls do I need to crush? Tommy - this statement was in relation to SEARCH ENGINE SPAMMERS - and had NOTHING to do with TGP jerkers

Originally posted by Tommy
If torn doesnt know how tgps work then he shouldnt be offering hosted gallerys.
Circle jerk TGPs are not the ONLY place that uses hosted gallerys, and so why do they make the rules!! There are plenty on NO-CJ TGPs and linklists and hubs etc etc that all use hosted gallerys.



Bill, Yes I was with OutBack, and have since departed, but I also have my own programs and hosted content/galleries.

[whitey]

There are really two questions here that people are confusing.

1. Is it Torn's right as owner of the imagery to do what he did?

I would say yes.

2. Is it a good business decision to act on your rights?

In this specific case, I have no idea. But, if a sponsor generalized the concept to disallowing skimming on a thumb, I would advise them that they have made a poor business decision.

Things like this crop up in business everyday, not just the porn business. For example, I have had customers fall behind on payments a number of times over the course of any individual year in my bricks and mortar business. Is it my right to throw the account into collections and seek a judgement - yes. Would it be good business to do this in every case ? No, it would be suicidal to my own business given the prevailing practices in the industry.

Same thing here, IMO. It is a sponsors right, in my opinion, to limit the use of thumbs made from their content, but it would be suicidal to disallow skimming given the prevailing practice in the industry. Just because certain practices are common does not make them right, but fighting them may doom your business. It all boils down to a simple, everyday business descision not unlike those made by businesses every day.

[Stouch]

^ What he said ^

[Torn Rose]

Hi everyone, sorry we been at Internext since Thursday and the connection there was crappy at best, so I will try and catch up.

I do find it interesting that so many are upset that I called someone a “little piss ant”. Was it professional? No, but in the grand scheme of this thread does it matter? Who here hasn’t seen far worse over far less?

I also find it interesting that people are making comments and then coming back later and admit that they have not read everything.

Have I made mistakes over this? Maybe I have. Am I sorry? No I am not. Will I do things differently in the future? Yes I will.

Most of you still do not understand the lives of those with personal Amateur Sites; we live this 24/7. It’s a much different world when it’s you and your wife/husband in front of the camera. When the only thing you have is your image and reputation to keep your members you will go out of your way to make sure you are not misrepresented in any way. And we are VERY protective of our members as well as our image and reputation with them.

Everyone wants to point out I know nothing of the TGP world, that is not entirely true, I do know some things of it, and yes I did know and have always known “skimming” or "CJ" takes place, but I have only seen one thumb tgp which was just a few months ago and he didn’t skim, and since I do not surf tgp sites this was “new” to me.

I have been to so many sites over the last 4 years and not once have I had any affiliate site set off my Norton. The only sites that has EVER set off my Norton are the thieves who stole my images and put on all their links to whatever crap and sent them to popup hell (and even a few illegal sites) just to make $. And most of those who have done this were from Russia, Romania and other countries outside the US…. even the UK. So when I saw the Norton, and when I saw the “skimming” and when I saw the “who is” being in the UK I thought I saw the same shit I have seen over and over for the past 4 years.

I will still offer TGP’s to those who want to use them, if you do not want to use them, no hard feelings here, I understand. As I have also stated prior, I have every right to say how my content is used and I would like to mention that a new design and setup for KatCash is being worked on and should be done by end of the month, and for the first time in 4 years I will be adding a TOS.

I am amazed that I have started something that turned into this, last I saw, this was on 4 message boards, and from reading the post’s here and at one other board I have no problem with everyone jumping on the bandwagon to “ban Torn” since it is so apparent they have not read the whole story, but just responding to what they heard or what they wanted to read.

No matter what people, this would have never been a thread if I did not get 3 Norton warnings. Total time I would have spent on that site if it had no Norton warnings would not have been enough for me to click on anything since I just wanted to see the site, nothing more. If it was his or his friends or whoever’s fault that my Norton was set off I really don’t care. It was set off. I saw my content, and with my past experience of stolen content being used I terminated the account.

It is not my fault that so many of you are worried I will set a precedent on the use of content that you do not own the copyright on is being used. I did what I thought was in my best interest as I always have. What all the major affiliate sites do is not up to me; I have not and will not start a movement with them or anyone for starting new rules on the TOS for all tgp sites to end skimming. How people want to make their money is their business.

So many have chimed in on this, not many who have posted are even my affiliates, so going out of your way to tell me that you have never made me $ and will never make me $ is really a waste of your time, but if you feel the need feel free.


|peace|

[Ghost&Lliandrin]

Originally posted by Tommy
This I would like anwsered ......suppose I had a thumb tgp that took submits and that tgp skimed, ... follow me so far ?......
someone premoting torns program submits a gallery with his content that he gave out to his partners, Now I guess Torn is gonna start sending Dmca notices to MY host ????????

If you look at Torns actions it makes all of his content unlinkable


Torn, since you posted back on here I was hoping you could clarify your stand on this issue. As a potential thumbs TGP webmaster do we have to ban your content as it may be used in a way you do not agree with? I dont want this to come off the wrong way but as I simply do not have time to police your affiliate program the most effecient way would be to simply ban it (and any other sponsors who dont want their thumbs used on skimming TGP's)

Thanks
~Ghost

[KCat]

Originally posted by Torn
Most of you still do not understand the lives of those with personal Amateur Sites; we live this 24/7. It’s a much different world when it’s you and your wife/husband in front of the camera. When the only thing you have is your image and reputation to keep your members you will go out of your way to make sure you are not misrepresented in any way. And we are VERY protective of our members as well as our image and reputation with them.

Even program owners & those who shoot their own content don't understand this to the same level, as it's not their face, their image being presented to the world.